Bronze Tiger vs Steve Rogers: H2H Only

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Being Richard Dragon's peer? Along with Shiva? Dismantling Batman with only a couple of moves. Batman back then was still a great fighter.

Pre Crisis he dismantled Batman, which isn't exactly relevant. Since then his history has been taken to the cutting room with half a dozen retconned. Based on the Shiva / Batgirl nonsense, he no longer trained with O Sensie, he was already in the League of Assassins when he met Shiva, and his relation ship with Dragon is anyone's guess. Currently Turner's histories is a mess of retcon's and subsequent writers ignoring retcons. It is hard to say with any certainty which of his feats are considered canon at the moment.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Pre Crisis he dismantled Batman, which isn't exactly relevant. Since then his history has been taken to the cutting room with half a dozen retconned. Based on the Shiva / Batgirl nonsense, he no longer trained with O Sensie, he was already in the League of Assassins when he met Shiva, and his relation ship with Dragon is anyone's guess. Currently Turner's histories is a mess of retcon's and subsequent writers ignoring retcons. It is hard to say with any certainty which of his feats are considered canon at the moment.

PC was STILL a great fighter. Even having a photographic memory and reflexes at one point. Ben has been regarded as one of the best fighters in the DCU. A peer to even Rogers, IMO.

Originally posted by Deadline
Um Batman is good enough to hold his own against Cap? DS has beaten Batman three times.

Hold his own? Without gadgetry, he loses an overwhelming majority just like BT does.

Originally posted by Deadline
Even if you could prove that he doesn't fit into the top 5, he still good enough to give Cap a fight.

Breifly before being beaten, just like BT. 😐

Originally posted by Deadline
Yes it does.

No it really doesn't... It's not up for debate.

Originally posted by Deadline
Show me.

What? The context of what the pages of the fight alone proves, states and suggests? They're posted two pages ago... read them... I know reading isn't your strong point but give it a shot.

Originally posted by Deadline
Again you are picking what parts you like. As I had stated theres truth to the statement but you are exaggerating. You are selecying what info you like and ignroing other issues.

1. DS didn't want to get taken in because he would have got killed.
2. He pulled a knife.

And it's me that cherry picks.. lol.

Originally posted by Deadline
Trying being civil and fairer then. Yea there was your basically accusing him of being fanboy because he has a difference of opinion.

😂

What a ****...

I never said he was a fanboy... though he's certainly not doing himself much justice in this thread.. what I said was that he can't bring up one clear distinct advantage to this debate for BT...

How is that not civil? How is that not fair?

How?

Because we can give you multiple advantages that are clear and straight forward for Cap. 😐

Originally posted by Deadline
As I said there were other factors as well. I don't think theres any proof he was weakened in the first fight.

Yeah, but that's because you don't read comics.

Originally posted by Deadline
Yea prove it, i'm pretty sure its a matter of opinion.

Seriously?

Originally posted by Prep-Man
PC was STILL a great fighter. Even having a photographic memory and reflexes at one point. Ben has been regarded as one of the best fighters in the DCU. A peer to even Rogers, IMO.

True, but PC he was a legitimate rival to Shiva, and one shotted Batman... and now he has said it would take the entire League of Assassins (including him and Cain) to have beaten Shiva. Bullshit, Shiva / Batgirl wanking? Maybe, but PC Ben wouldn't have lost to a pre teen Batgirl, hell he wouldn't have lost to a full grown Batgirl. He isn't as formidable as he once was, and even at his best, including all his feats and history, regardless of retcons you still couldn't make a conclusive argument that he is more skilled than Steve... and in order for Ben to win or even be a legitimate thread he would need to be more skilled than Steve by a considerable amount, and that just isn't the case. I don't know why this is so confusing to people, Captain America is Bronze Tiger just better in every conceivable way, and how does BT reasonably have a chance at beating someone like that? It defies logic.

He is a great fighter, but there is a hierarchy and in that hierarchy Steve is a notch above him.

Originally posted by jinzin
Yes, that's exactly what he's saying.

I don't know what you think posting up a bunch of Slade's "feats" lends to this debate but it's near mind boggling.

What you think because he can T off on a distracted Flash that proves something?
That he can drop a building on a hero that proves something?
That he can talk trash to Superman while Supes just looks at him instead of railing him like he did the next time DS saw him that proves something?

All that so you can show off one fight with DS and BT as if it lends credability to your position in this debate.... WHA?!

BT got a momentary advantage over a non-invested, weakened DS pressed for time after blindsiding him to begin with..... WOW. 😱

I'm sooooo totally impressed... Especially considering that it's nearly forum concensus that Rogers would take the majority from Slade in a real 1on1 already.... 😐

Seriously, the most your "evidence" proves is that BT MIGHT be a better h2h fighter than DS.... and that's not saying much... like... at all...
The only reason he even got a momentary advantage in that little scrap was ( assuming we are eliminating the probability of every OTHER compounding reason I already mentioned) due to the skills that DS lacks.... and he DOES lack a certain amount of profeciency... Stack his skill up to Caps level and that would have never happened.

Cap regularly pieces people who are on BT's level... he typically trashes people who are above it.... and he consistently stalemates (AT THE LEAST) people of BT's level WITH superhuman stats....

The ONLY advantage that you think you can bring to this debate to argue for BT winning is a "possible" skill advantage... one you haven't bothered to support or back up....
and one that you frankly can't to be honest.

Night Trasher took on Junzo in h2h, someone who was Rand's equal and do you know what happened with NT tried to go up against Cap?
He got completely and utterly tooled like a child....

It's a better comparative feat against a skilled opponent than anything BT has produced..... but you keep on drinking the BT koolaid I guess. 😬

Jinzin don't ever try to talk down to me son. You are not my superior. Your Captain America fan club will not and can not back me down. Nice try though.... 😬

Now with that said. I'll break it down just for you...

1: You say that Slade was weakened, without any real prof to back it. Now lets say that he is weakened, that doesn't mean he's depowered. Since you love to talk about stats. Aqua Man, and Flash are leaps and bounds over Steve and Bronze Tiger. And they even had Hal Jordan with them. Slade still got away. In fact Slade was more at a disadvantage there then when he fought Tiger. And what it proves is that Tiger is that good. He did far better than Aqua Man, Hal, and Wally. But that means nothing? Wrong.

2: Slade didn't just have some little scrap with Tiger. It damn near took up the entire issue, all the way to the end of it. And the situation is really no different than what happened when Slade encountered Batman (the first time) or when he got away from the JLA. I say this because in all of those situations, Slade was focus on something else entirely. And couldn't be stopped. Batman, Hal Jordan, Aqua Man, and The Flash failed. All but Bronze Tiger (with help from Deadshot towards the end). Do you think that Slade put less effort to archive his goals then, compared to the other times he's had his hands forced? Not at all.

Then you say that Batman isn't one of DC best martial artist???? If the moderators could throw a book at you, they would for that dumb statement.....

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
True, but PC he was a legitimate rival to Shiva, and one shotted Batman... and now he has said it would take the entire League of Assassins (including him and Cain) to have beaten Shiva. Bullshit, Shiva / Batgirl wanking? Maybe, but PC Ben wouldn't have lost to a pre teen Batgirl, hell he wouldn't have lost to a full grown Batgirl. He isn't as formidable as he once was, and even at his best, including all his feats and history, regardless of retcons you still couldn't make a conclusive argument that he is more skilled than Steve... and in order for Ben to win or even be a legitimate thread he would need to be more skilled than Steve by a considerable amount, and that just isn't the case. I don't know why this is so confusing to people, Captain America is Bronze Tiger just better in every conceivable way, and how does BT reasonably have a chance at beating someone like that? It defies logic.

He is a great fighter, but there is a hierarchy and in that hierarchy Steve is a notch above him.

Then let's use PC Ben, since current Ben isn't what he once was. It's the only fight that would make sense, IMO.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
True, but PC he was a legitimate rival to Shiva, and one shotted Batman... and now he has said it would take the entire League of Assassins (including him and Cain) to have beaten Shiva. Bullshit, Shiva / Batgirl wanking? Maybe, but PC Ben wouldn't have lost to a pre teen Batgirl, hell he wouldn't have lost to a full grown Batgirl. He isn't as formidable as he once was, and even at his best, including all his feats and history, regardless of retcons you still couldn't make a conclusive argument that he is more skilled than Steve... and in order for Ben to win or even be a legitimate thread he would need to be more skilled than Steve by a considerable amount, and that just isn't the case. I don't know why this is so confusing to people, Captain America is Bronze Tiger just better in every conceivable way, and how does BT reasonably have a chance at beating someone like that? It defies logic.

He is a great fighter, but there is a hierarchy and in that hierarchy Steve is a notch above him.

BTW, I never said Ben was more skilled than Steve, just skilled enough to make a fight and get some wins. I gave Steve the sleight majority, but only due to stats.

Originally posted by Marvelknight
Jinzin don't ever try to talk down to me son. You are not my superior. Your Captain America fan club will not and can not back me down. Nice try though.... 😬

Now with that said. I'll break it down just for you...

lulz "son"?

Uh huh... 🙄

Originally posted by Marvelknight
1: You say that was weakened, without any real prof to back it. Now lets say that he is weakened, that doesn't mean he's depowered. Since you love to talk about stats. Aqua Man, and Flash are leaps and bounds over Steve and Bronze Tiger. And they even had Hal Jordan with them. Slade still got away. In fact Slade was more at a disadvantage there then when he fought Tiger. And what it proves is that Tiger is that good. He did far better than Aqua Man, Hal, and Wally. But that means nothing? Wrong.

Yeah, it means nothing in a FORUM fight, WITHOUT use of plot devices to aid him, WITHOUT a means to run away...

We're talking about a 1on1 h2h here... use evidence that proves something in accordance with THAT context... it isn't at all that difficult.

I suppose Nightwing's> Flash, Hal, AM too huh?

Originally posted by Marvelknight
2: Slade didn't just have some little scrap with Tiger. It damn near took up the entire issue, all the way to the end of it. And the situation is really no different than what happened when Slade encountered Batman (the first time) or when he got away from the JLA. I say this because in all of those situations, Slade was focus on something else entirely. And couldn't be stopped. Batman, Hal Jordan, Aqua Man, and The Flash failed. All but Bronze Tiger (with help from Deadshot towards the end). Do you think that Slade put less effort to archive his goals then, compared to the other times he's had his hands forced? Not at all.

Then you say that Batman isn't one of DC best martial artist???? If the moderators could throw a book at you, they would for that dumb statement.....

He isn't... He's not in the running for the top spot at number 1, he's not even in the top 3....

Cap is in his respective universe, and there's a major difference there... Especially considering the typically higher calibur of Marvel MA's compared to DC ones.

Again, your scrap with Slade doesn't move anything forward in this thread.
Cap isn't hurt, Cap isn't being blindsided, Cap IS there to fight, and Cap IS a heads and shoulders better fighter than DS....

Bring some evidence that matters.. or we have nothing further to discuss.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Then let's use PC Ben, since current Ben isn't what he once was. It's the only fight that would make sense, IMO.

I have been using a sort of amalgam of PC and current BT and just ignoring stuff like his encounter with Matches Malone and flash backs / what he said about Shiva in Batgirl.

Still ignoring all of Bronze Tigers low shows and compiling together all his high ones regardless of there validity in current canon, what we have is a skilled fighter who is up against a faster, stronger, slightly more skilled better version of himself, who doesn't tire and has nearly off the charts damage soak. How does Bronze Tiger stand a chance of winning? The math just doesn't add up. I have no problem with someone thinking that Bronze Tiger would win provided they can make a case for it... but hasn't happened, and being familiar with Turners history it can't happen.

Originally posted by jinzin
lulz "son"?

Uh huh... 🙄

Read more comics. 😕

Yeah, it means nothing in a FORUM fight, WITHOUT use of plot devices to aid him, WITHOUT a means to run away...

We're talking about a 1on1 h2h here... use evidence that proves something in accordance with THAT context... it isn't at all that difficult.

I suppose Nightwing's> Flash, Hal, AM too huh?

He isn't... He's not in the running for the top spot at number 1, he's not even in the top 3....

Cap is in his respective universe, and there's a major difference there... Especially considering the typically higher calibur of Marvel MA's compared to DC ones.

Again, your scrap with Slade doesn't move anything forward in this thread.
Cap isn't hurt, Cap isn't being blindsided, Cap IS there to fight, and Cap IS a heads and shoulders better fighter than DS....

Bring some evidence that matters.. or we have nothing further to discuss.

No we don't. Your credibility isn't all that strong. My points still stand and I've read over 1000 comic books and counting.

Wow, a whole 1000. that's impressive.....🙂

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
I have been using a sort of amalgam of PC and current BT and just ignoring stuff like his encounter with Matches Malone and flash backs / what he said about Shiva in Batgirl.

Still ignoring all of Bronze Tigers low shows and compiling together all his high ones regardless of there validity in current canon, what we have is a skilled fighter who is up against a faster, stronger, slightly more skilled better version of himself, who doesn't tire and has nearly off the charts damage soak. How does Bronze Tiger stand a chance of winning? The math just doesn't add up. I have no problem with someone thinking that Bronze Tiger would win provided they can make a case for it... but hasn't happened, and being familiar with Turners history it can't happen.

THAT is why I gave Steve a majority here. Stats. If he is a more skilled fighter (which i don't really buy, IMO), it isn't by leaps and bounds.

Originally posted by Marvelknight
No we don't. Your credibility isn't all that strong. My points still stand and I've read over 1000 comic books and counting.

😆

Annnnnnnnd this is why I called you a troll....

I don't think you can just fake or stumble this kind of comedy, this is planned shit right here.

Originally posted by Silent Master
Wow, a whole 1000. that's impressive.....🙂

I have more than that. I'm still buying new ones every chance I get. Yeah there are people who have more. And there are also people who don't even have 50 comic book. Just 1000 by its self is a lot to read. 😬

Originally posted by Prep-Man
THAT is why I gave Steve a majority here. Stats. If he is a more skilled fighter (which i don't really buy, IMO), it isn't by leaps and bounds.

I don't think anyone has suggested that Steve is significantly more skilled, just that he is in fact more skilled.

The fact of the mater is that Steve's advantages are nearly insurmountable for any human martial artists to counter without powers or weaponry. He never tires. His damage soak is off the charts. Even if we throw Bronze Tiger a bone and say he is more skilled, it would only be the slightest of margins, while Captain America would still hold ever other conceivable advantage. I've already said that the fight would start out more or less even, and Steven would gradually pull a head at a steady pace as Bronze Tiger tires and injuries start to compile. He would need to beat or severely injury Captain America nearly right out of the gate to have a legitimate shot at winning, at frankly Captain America is too good for that to happen (just like the reverse is true, Cap is winning the fight the moment he bell rings)

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
I have been using a sort of amalgam of PC and current BT and just ignoring stuff like his encounter with Matches Malone and flash backs / what he said about Shiva in Batgirl.

Still ignoring all of Bronze Tigers low shows and compiling together all his high ones regardless of there validity in current canon, what we have is a skilled fighter who is up against a faster, stronger, slightly more skilled better version of himself, who doesn't tire and has nearly off the charts damage soak. How does Bronze Tiger stand a chance of winning? The math just doesn't add up. I have no problem with someone thinking that Bronze Tiger would win provided they can make a case for it... but hasn't happened, and being familiar with Turners history it can't happen.

Again it just comes down to whether or not a shred of at least ONE clear, distinct advantage can be produced for BT in this fight.

If one advantage can be referenced, THEN we can at least entertain from there how he makes use of that advantage for the win.....

I was wrong about the cape thing...

but "well he beat Batman/Deathstroke" are not all too convincing either. 😕

Originally posted by jinzin
😆

Annnnnnnnd this is why I called you a troll....

I don't think you can just fake or stumble this kind of comedy, this is planned shit right here.

Jinzin, he has over 200 Batman comics.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Jinzin, he has [b]over 200 Batman comics. [/B]

I know dude... it's like TOTALLY almost 1/4th of ONE of his entire title runs.

WOWZA! 😱

lol

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
I don't think anyone has suggested that Steve is significantly more skilled, just that he is in fact more skilled.

The fact of the mater is that Steve's advantages are nearly insurmountable for any human martial artists to counter without powers or weaponry. He never tires. His damage soak is off the charts. Even if we throw Bronze Tiger a bone and say he is more skilled, it would only be the slightest of margins, while Captain America would still hold ever other conceivable advantage. I've already said that the fight would start out more or less even, and Steven would gradually pull a head at a steady pace as Bronze Tiger tires and injuries start to compile. He would need to beat or severely injury Captain America nearly right out of the gate to have a legitimate shot at winning, at frankly Captain America is too good for that to happen (just like the reverse is true, Cap is winning the fight the moment he bell rings)

Then what the hell were we debating, then? 😠