Cassandra Cain Vs Midnighter

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Right... because street-levelers can get kicked across landscapes unphased, street-levelers can instantly kill building-demolishing, supersonic++ flying supersoldiers with their fists, street-levelers rip up steel train railings, exact duplicates of stree-levelers pound on Superman-level beings.

Astounding denial rationale. 👆

Since this involves Midnighter, I'd daresay your arguments are sourced in either homophobia, DC-haterade, or the usual "if-its-not-Wolverine-it-sucks" attitude:

Yes.

Gamorra soldiers are fodder who get killed in scores by Swift. They suck. They have flight speed and energy blasts. Cap would demolish them.

Yes.

Apollo is classic Ms. Marvel level on a good day, which is a far cry from Superman.

I couldn't care less that Midnighter is gay, and Midnighter is from Wildstorm, my favorite publishing house. What I have a problem with is some witless schmuck advocating the use of a feat that is clearly PIS. It is not even remotely in line with every other appearances Midnighter has, and the examples you have brought uo in a feeble attempt to state your case only further emphasize my point. That is the best you can dig up and they are all several orders of magnetide less impressive than the feat in question. You are just putting your fingers in your ears and say "LAHLAHALLAH I can't hear you LAHLALAHHH! Midnighter kicked a missile LAHALLLAHHLHA" Midnighter is not strong enough to redirect a missile so either it was the result of his battle computer or it is PIS.

Originally posted by Deadline
Batman was on the floor for several panels, while DS spoke to him. This means he couldn't get up ( at least TKO) and DS could have finished him off, if Batman had attempted to get to his feet its most likely a foregone conclusion he would have lost.

You dont have to be out cold for 15 mins for it to be a win. According to your logic a guy could be out for 5 mins and if he attempts to get up and the guy runs away its not a win.

It wasn't a win, it was a temporary intermission. Slade knocked Batman over, and didn't press him, and that afforded Batman the opportunity to get Robin on the line and give him a task... but if Deathstroke had pressed him the fight would have continued then and there.

Srank how many times has Wolverine beaten Cap in a fight? Didn't he beat him in his own comicbook?

Originally posted by srankmissingnin

Apollo is classic Ms. Marvel level on a good day, which is a far cry from Superman.

He's done some pretty big stuff. Like scouring the infected area of the moon (in the Ellis run, when they fought God).

Originally posted by Deadline
Srank how many times has Wolverine beaten Cap in a fight? Didn't he beat him in his own comicbook?

Never. He pinned him in the werewolf fight, but it was a third party that drugged Cap incapacitating him. Logan gave Cap an aneurysm in the Origins fight but Cap technically clutched victory from defeat with a dues ex machina device.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Never. He pinned him in the werewolf fight, but it was a third party that drugged Cap incapacitating him. Logan gave Cap an aneurysm in the Origins fight but Cap technically clutched victory from defeat with a dues ex machina device.

Fair enough I'll deal with the other points later.

Originally posted by Q99
He's done some pretty big stuff. Like scouring the infected area of the moon (in the Ellis run, when they fought God).

You talking about Godhead? Because that was Morrisons run, I don't think they fought any good like beings in v1... Seth was the most powerful v1 villain wasn't he?

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Gamorra soldiers are fodder who get killed in scores by Swift. They suck. They have flight speed and energy blasts. Cap would demolish them.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Apollo is classic Ms. Marvel level on a good day, which is a far cry from Superman.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
I couldn't care less that Midnighter is gay, and Midnighter is from Wildstorm, my favorite publishing house. What I have a problem with is some witless schmuck advocating the use of a feat that is clearly PIS. It is not even remotely in line with every other appearances Midnighter has, and the examples you have brought uo in a feeble attempt to state your case only further emphasize my point. That is the best you can dig up and they are all several orders of magnetide less impressive than the feat in question. You are just putting your fingers in your ears and say "LAHLAHALLAH I can't hear you LAHLALAHHH! Midnighter kicked a missile LAHALLLAHHLHA" [b]Midnighter is not strong enough to redirect a missile so either it was the result of his battle computer or it is PIS. [/B]

And Midnighter has enhanced speed, reflexes, strength and durability. Which allows him to fight and get knocked around by Hawksmoore-level, Apollo-level, Doctor-level foes in fistfights where he's passing off wry comments with disdain. Which allows him to tear steel train rails with his bare hands, spit his teeth out with the force of high-caliber bullets, beat every no-named speedster he's faced effortlessly and instantly demolish super-soldiers with his fists in a blink of an eye.

This is a level of play that normal street-levelers don't operate. Now mop up the anal blood and try not to cry too hard it.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Instantly with his fists while standing a dozen feet away from them staring at each other eye-to-eye? No. Cap's good. He's not that good. Random HYDRA soldier? Maybe, but not instantly. Enhanced AIM schlub and Cap has his shield? Maybe, but not instantly. Cap's strong and fast. He's not that strong and fast.

Yes instantly. Cybernary had more trouble with Coda warriors then she did with the Children of Garmora... and outside of Zealot and Nemesis, Coda warriors themselves are pretty much Hand level fodder. Stop pretending they are anything more than they are, flying Hand Ninja.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Awesome how you justify lowballing Midnighter to a normal street-leveler by lowballing Apollo. And yes, he did scour the Moon in vol.

No low balling needed. Midnighter is a high end street. Physically on par with Captain America, Deathstroke or Black Panther, but below low Mid Tiers like Spider-man.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Except it happened:

Which doesn't make it valid. You know what else happened? Wolverine survived falling into a vat of molten metal and climbed out under his own power. Hawkeye one armed a car. Captain America two shotted the Hulk. Bone claw Wolverine cut Thanos. "It happened," isn't a valid argument, because everything we are talking about here happened... that is why we are talking about it, but whether it happened or not, is inconsequential. What is of importance is whether or not the feat is consistent with EVERYTHING ELSE THAT HAS HAPPENED, and in this case it is not. A feat needs to conform to everything else that "has happened," and this feat is not in line with the portrayal of Midnighter's strength before or since.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
And Midnighter has enhanced speed, reflexes, strength and durability. Which allows him to fight and get knocked around by Hawksmoore-level, Apollo-level, Doctor-level foes in fistfights where he's passing off wry comments with disdain. Which allows him to tear steel train rails with his bare hands, spit his teeth out with the force of high-caliber bullets, beat every no-named speedster he's faced effortlessly and instantly demolish super-soldiers with his fists in a blink of an eye.

Un-modified by a city Hawksmoore is Spider-man at or close level in speed / agility / strength. In pure h2h alone we know that Hawksmoore is as a match for Midnighter, that the the fight could go either way and that in a fight to the death even if Midnighter he would be messed up for the rest of his life.

That is the level Midnighter is at. A melee threat for a Spider-Sense less Spider-man... which is more or the same level as every other top tier street.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Physically on par with Captain America, Deathstroke or Black Panther

Get over it.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Which doesn't make it valid. You know what else happened? Wolverine survived falling into

Bringing up your Wolverithmetics in an argument will NEVER work in your favor. It just brings up again, how your "scrutiny" over on-panel proof is utterly lacking or disingenuous.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Neither Cap, DS, nor BP are head-butting tank shells in mid-flight, nor spitting their teeth and shattering concrete columns, nor tearing up steel train railings with their bare hands anytime soon. Neither is Cho (to once again bury that retarded point you tried justifying for two pages before dropping it like a dead rodent).

Get over it. Nobody gives two sh1ts about Wolverine in this thread. Stop acting like the idiocies of that character somehow offset Midnighter's feats. You can't even look at Wolverine stabbing his own brain through his eye sockets and suffering from brain damage and admit it even happened in the first place.

Bringing up your Wolverithmetics in an argument will NEVER work in your favor. It just brings up again, how your "scrutiny" over on-panel proof is utterly lacking or disingenuous.

Midnighter isn't head-butting tank shells mid-fight either. He did it once, it was PIS, it has no relevance. Cap, DS or BP might not spit teeth and destroy pillars, but they would have no problem up rooting a section of rail road track. It is a class 2 feat, why wouldn't they?

Dude, you are the who constantly brings Wolverine up all the time, as though supporting Wolverine in threads involving other characters somehow invalidates my opinions? Please. Your constant baying " Hehe You like Wolverine, so you dumb," is crass and banal and isn't doing you any favors. It seems like Wolverine is your oppression not, mine. Find something valid to dwell on or better yet move on. Start singing another tone, because your trite attempt at insults are getting old... or are you hoping the repetition will start to add credence to your point eventually?

Mids takes the majority. He's on the level of Logan IMO who a little bit above guys like Cap/Slade.

Mids is prop in the 2-4 tons class but its hard to guage based on his average and high end feats. But I would have to say his striking feats are greater and disproportionate to his strength, kind of like Magnus the Robot fighter. I definitely do "not" see him Spiderman level in regards to strength but stronger then Slade and Cap.

He has two pretty cool feats that I don't think have been mentioned yet like holding that mouth open of a building sized monster but then again Ka Zar in Marvel has done the same thing.

Another in hurting apollo with a ear strikes but again Batman has done the same thing to Wonder Woman.

We should make a thread of characters that do some what similar feats.

Originally posted by Daredevil1
Mids takes the majority. He's on the level of Logan IMO who a little bit above guys like Cap/Slade.

Mids is prop in the 2-4 tons class but its hard to guage based on his average and high end feats. But I would have to say his striking feats are greater and disproportionate to his strength, kind of like Magnus the Robot fighter. I definitely do "not" see him Spiderman level in regards to strength but stronger then Slade and Cap.

He has two pretty cool feats that I don't think have been mentioned yet like holding that mouth open of a building sized monster but then again Ka Zar in Marvel has done the same thing.

Another in hurting apollo with a ear strikes but again Batman has done the same thing to Wonder Woman.

We should make a thread of characters that do some what similar feats.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Dude, you are the who constantly brings Wolverine up all the time, as though supporting Wolverine in threads involving other characters somehow invalidates my opinions

1) "Wolverine's skeleton climbs out of molten vat."

2) "Midnighter kicks fired tank shell."

The former requires the impossible, that somehow a skeleton can move with it's muscles burned off or that whatever remaining strands of incinerating musculature are able to function in 2000 degrees Celsius heat.

The latter requires you to think Midnighter is stronger and faster than you give him credit for.

How the phucking sh1t do those two situations analogize to each other? You bring up blatant Wolverine idiocy and liken it to your blatant Midnighter lowballing. Does not compute.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
How the phucking sh1t did your first situation analogize at all to our conversation?!

Wolverine's skeleton climbs out of molten vat.

Midnighter kicks fired tank shell.

The former requires the impossible, that somehow a skeleton can move with it's muscles burned off or that whatever remaining strands of incinerating muscles are left are able to function in 2000 degrees Celsius heat.

The latter requires you to think Midnighter is stronger and faster than you give him credit for.

How the phucking sh1t do those two situations analogize to each other? You bring up blatant Wolverine idiocy and liken it to your blatant Midnighter lowballing. Does not compute.

"The former requires the impossible, that somehow a skeleton can move with it's muscles burned off or that whatever remaining strands of incinerating muscles are left are able to function in 2000 degrees Celsius heat."...oooooooor that Wolverine is durable / heals fast enough for his muscles to remain intact long enough for him to climb out of the vat molten metal.

Regardless of the above, the analog is that both feats are inconstant with the portrayal of the respective character's abilities. In order to be valid, Midnighters would require him to have vastly improved strength over his standard operating levels, while Wolverine's would require much greater durability or healing factor speed.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
"The former requires the impossible, that somehow a skeleton can move with it's muscles burned off or that whatever remaining strands of incinerating muscles are left are able to function in 2000 degrees Celsius heat."...oooooooor that Wolverine is durable / heals fast enough for his muscles to remain intact long enough for him to climb out of the vat molten metal.

LET ME GUESS, you didn't like how the art was portrayed on-panel. Somehow, Wolverithmetics justifies you projecting that there's a lot of flesh still left on that skeleton.

Brilliant. Positively phucking brilliant.

I didn't say "a lot of flesh", just enough move, and there very well could be. The hand clearly isn't stripped to the bone in the second panel for instance.

But its true I due have problems with how the art was depicted, since Wolverine doesn't have claws in the picture. Did they fall off, because that's where they should be...

^ What flesh do you see there at all? Give me a kit-kat break! Ugh. Anyway, let's take this and run with it. After all, I'm just trying to wrap my head around this winning new argument (not really as I've seen you pull this card several times) of yours:

SOMEHOW, accepting that Midnighter is strong and fast enough to kick a tank shell in mid-flight...

... REQUIRES you to also accept the PIS that Wolverine's skeleton can move around without any musculature from a molten steel vat.

Da. F@ck? 🤨

What else happens when I accept that Midnighter's strong and fast enough to kick a fired tank shell? If I accept that... it also means somehow that Spiderman can knock out Firelord? If I accept that... it also means somehow that Black Panther can armbar Silver Surfer?

Really? This parade of horribles that is about to descend on all of us, will happen simply because we accept that Midnighter is above street level fare and he's strong/fast enough to kick a fired tank shell (because he actually did it on-panel among other things but you think IDLI, IDH = PIS)? Should I be scared for the sanity of KMC over this? KMC Chaos Wars will reign?! This is the Final Crisis on Infinite KMC Threads?!?!?! All because I think Midnighter is stronger than you give him credit for because you can't look at panels straight?

I'm scared now. You're like the motherphucking Batman, here. Scaring people straight. I made the following sig just for you srankmissingnin and this new fear-inducing, "Midnighter can't be that strong/fast otherwise Wolverine's skeleton justifiably climbs out of vats" argument you can add to your Wolverithmetics textbook for how to argue on KMC. Here ya go:

Beware KMC. It happens in APRIL. Dun dun dun!!!!!!11111

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Yes instantly. Cybernary had more trouble with Coda warriors then she did with the Children of Garmora

While she was pre-occupied. And she pretty much beat an army of Coda Warriors by herself.