Cassandra Cain Vs Midnighter

Originally posted by Deadline
Well apparently lifting a train track and bending it is a class 2 strength and its something Daredevil could do.

You know that class two is two tons right? An I-Beam only weighs 800lbs and an I-Beam is larger than a section of rail road track in every dimension. Up rooting and slightly bending a section of post Apocalyptic rail road track is a class two feat. What? Did you think it is a Spider-man level feat? Ordanry humans lift up sections of old rail road tacks and take them into the scarp yard.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin

Yes, theoretically his battle computer could have calculated the exact spot to hit the missile to redirect it ala Amadeus Cho. Which is what I suggested initially.

In my mind it is either an example of blatant PIS or the result of his battle computer, because here is nothing in Midnighter's history that supports or even suggests he has anywhere near that level of strength. He hasn't demonstrated anything above class two strength before that incident or since, hell he has even been reference as not having any superhuman attributes on occasion.

if there's no precedent, then yes, it would be battle computer or pis, not strength.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin

Yes, theoretically his battle computer could have calculated the exact spot to hit the missile to redirect it ala Amadeus Cho. Which is what I suggested initially.

In my mind it is either an example of blatant PIS or the result of his battle computer, because here is nothing in Midnighter's history that supports or even suggests he has anywhere near that level of strength. He hasn't demonstrated anything above class two strength before that incident or since, hell he has even been reference as not having any superhuman attributes on occasion.

Originally posted by jinzin
saw what he posted.... I didn't see comparible strength feats. 😕

Getting punched a good distance is not some feat of strength.
Hurting tough opponents with skilled blows is not a feat of strength.
Spitting a tooth out like a bullet..... Yyyyyeah that could be a feat of strength I suppose, or it could be a goofy skill feat ala bullseye.

The rail tracks is a definite strength feat but one that fits into the 2/3 ton category that he already falls into...

So either
A.) The tank shell kick was a feat that also sits in the 2/3 ton category by opinion, and thus according with MNer and his ability.

B.)The tank shell kick is a feat greatly outstripping 2/3 tons of strength and puts MNer into a higher category of strength which suggests he has other feats of similar nature to support it.
OR
C.) The tank shell kick is a feat that greatly outstrips the 2/3 tons strength class that MNer falls into and is thus a product of PIS if it isn't one of his supercomputer brain capacity.

You can take your pick which.

Originally posted by -Pr-
if there's no precedent, then yes, it would be battle computer or pis, not strength.

Which is what I said. Thank you.

Midnighter gets the majority. But Cass does better than most street levelers.

pretty much.

^ Jinzin for starters Bullseye can't blow a tooth through concrete.. so yea.

Originally posted by Deadline
^ Jinzin for starters Bullseye can't blow a tooth through concrete.. so yea.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Only because his writers haven't read that comic and tried to one-up it yet. 😛

Well if he can't spit his tooth through somebodies skull then he ain't spliting concrete.

^ Whatever, it's apparently due to his battle cpu which has now, for purposes of argument, become more of a Karnak-esque/Karate Kid ability. How that lessens the argument for Midnighter's chances against high level streets is beyond me. We're just turning him into a broken character at this point.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Which is what I said. Thank you.

How does this change the fact that he beats Cass? Cass ain't beating someone who can fight as well as Midnighter, can predict as well as Midnighter and is capable of ridiculous feats (by way of mainly battle cpu or not).

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
How does this change the fact that he beats Cass? Cass ain't beating someone who can fight as well as Midnighter, can predict as well as Midnighter and is capable of ridiculous feats (by way of mainly battle cpu or not).

Because Zealot can. Because Nemesis can. Because Grifter can. Because Hawksmoore can even when handicapping himself to melee only. Because Midnighter's abilities have never given him a conclusive victory over anyone of note.

^ Sorry, but if Cass can "hang" with Deathstroke, who in your opinion isn't much different physically/skillwise from Midnighter, and then Midnighter has this broken battle cpu that allows him Cho/Karnak/KK-esque abilities on top of that?

Sorry. Midnighter takes her out. Give Deathstroke this battle cpu that allows him to surpass his physicality (if that's the idea now) by large margins giving him crazy feats and throw him against Cass. Do the math.

Now you get the idea.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Sorry, but if Cass can "hang" with Deathstroke, who in your opinion isn't much different physically/skillwise from Midnighter, and then Midnighter has this broken battle cpu that allows him Cho/Karnak/KK-esque abilities on top of that?

Sorry. Midnighter takes her out. Give Deathstroke this battle cpu that allows him to surpass his physicality (if that's the idea now) by large margins giving him crazy feats and throw him against Cass. Do the math.

Now you get the idea.

Midnighter's battle computer was unable to give him an advantage against either Nemesis or Zealot, and Sheba (who has the same ability as Batgirl) was able to fight both Nemesis and Shiva at the same time.

For varying circumstances, Deathstroke has largely been unable to land a single blow on Cass. I think Midnighter would win the fight eventually, same way I think Deathstroke would win if the fight played its course until someone was koed, but I don't think it will be a stomp.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Midnighter's battle computer was unable to give him an advantage against either Nemesis or Zealot, and Sheba (who has the same ability as Batgirl) was able to fight both Nemesis and Shiva at the same time.

For varying circumstances, Deathstroke has largely been unable to land a single blow on Cass. I think Midnighter would win the fight eventually, same way I think Deathstroke would win if the fight played its course until someone was koed, but I don't think it will be a stomp.

Deathstroke has hung with Cass. So has Batman if you want to take this ABC logic route to its bitter end. You already believe Deathstroke wins the matchup. Giving Deathstroke the ability to play out his fight with Cass in his mind an exponential number of times, and after this ruling, now the ability to sense Cho-esque points and superhuman feat bursts... this is a substantial advantage.

You can't pretend that it wouldn't matter much. Same thing, go ahead and give Batman extra physicality where he's bending steel with his bare hands, dropping Cass' ability to read him, and giving him the battle cpu for Cho-esque weakpoints and superhuman feat bursts? This ABC logic cuts both ways, and in this case, its far harsher against Cass here.

Midnighter's battle computer isn't as useful as you give it credit. When he was fighting the Mercs, he said that there was only 5 possible winning outcomes for him, and that 55 was his average. The Mercs suck, the only half decent member was Deathtrap, and wasn't there when Midnighter rolled them. He's been surrounded by three SAS soldiers with their guns drawn and was unable to come up with a winning scenario not involving Apollo, and we all know the example when he was smashed into the ground by a robot Shang-Chi analog because "he didn't make the first move." I think Cass's ability to read body language will go a long way to counter it.

Midnighter's battle computer isn't an insurmountable advantage, every time he has fought a significant character in Wildstorm they have held their own, and Batgirl would too.

^ 5 winning outcomes means guaranteed victory 5 different ways unless he decides to choose a losing outcome. Why do you keep assuming that there's a possibility that he chooses a losing outcome? He won't. Acting like his battle cpu is somehow defective because you think its success rate is a few out of a million? You're missing the point. As long as it calculates a guaranteed victory, it's success efficiency is 100% unless Midnighter decides to eschew that scenario for no reason.

The "not making a first move weakness" has been debunked dozens of times before and after that scene. Furthermore, even if his opponent has to make the first move and Midnighter does has to wait, why wouldn't he wait?

Deathstroke + scenario calculations + Cho-esque weakness sensing + superhuman feat bursts. It's. Math.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ 5 winning outcomes means guaranteed victory 5 different ways unless he decides to choose a losing outcome. Why do you keep assuming that there's a possibility that he chooses a losing outcome? He won't. Acting like his battle cpu is somehow defective because you think its success rate is a few out of a million? You're missing the point. As long as it calculates a guaranteed victory, it's success efficiency is 100% unless Midnighter decides to eschew that scenario for no reason.

The "not making a first move weakness" has been debunked dozens of times before and after that scene. Furthermore, even if his opponent has to make the first move and Midnighter does has to wait, why wouldn't he wait?

Deathstroke + scenario calculations + Cho-esque weakness sensing + superhuman feat bursts. It's. Math.

On paper, if we were looking at this as just a series of checks and minuses you'd be right, but the fact is that in execution the battle computer hasn't been that useful. Chalk up to free will, but the only people dancing to Midnighter's tunes are people he would soundly beat without his battle computer.

^ This would be like arguing that Elektra isn't all that tough despite her peak skills, low tp skills and metahuman feats because Bullseye always gives her a hard time.

Two-way street, srankmissingnin, two-way street.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ This would be like arguing that Elektra isn't all that tough despite her peak skills, low tp skills and metahuman feats because Bullseye always gives her a hard time.

Two-way street, srankmissingnin, two-way street.

People due make that argument. 🙁

^ And you deride it like a Pauly Shore film every time.

I have less reason to be convinced by that argument when it comes from you. I think that's fair.