Originally posted by jinzin
Wolverine can be faster and more skilled than Thor and still be tagged by him the gap in either category is not great enough for Wolverine to remain flawless.
The reverse is also true.
Thor could also be faster and more skilled than Wolverine and still get tagged by him, if the gap in either category is not great enough for Thor to remain flawless
Originally posted by jinzin
Thor has an entire history of being hit/beat on/ or put into precarious situations or prolonged battles with people who don't have anything even approaching light speed combat speed and reflexes and those battles make up the majority of his career.
Well ok cool, you are in the camp that believes his speed more typically lies on the enhanced human side of things, in a similar category to the wolverines and captain americas of the world.
On the other hand, PillarofOsiris is in the other camp that argues he has fairly consistent FTL reflexes throughout his career and other lower showings can be chalked up to CIS.
Who is winrar?? uhuh
Originally posted by jinzinNo, just utterly shattering your retarded logic that getting tagged and put in danger by people without light speed somehow automatically precludes someone from having heightened combat reflexes.
Are you honestly trying to argue that Thor's ambigous, unquantifiable feats, or feats posing as speed feats are of the same calibur as those of guys like Superman or Flash? 🤨Yeah, much more logical. 🙄
Pay attention. Or don't.
Originally posted by jinzinFunny how Thor's hit and grabbed speedsters. Pretty much every time he's encountered em.
IMO Wolverine would have to be some sort of speedster to be unhittable to a guy like Thor.
Originally posted by jinzin
I'd heavily disagree with that opinion. Apparently so does Marvel.
Yeah I suppose you're right:
Wolverine vs Namor hand to hand:
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/2/25493/680325-namorfight4_super.jpg
Thor vs Namor: (Thor one shots him)
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Thor%20Stats/ThorStrength23Invaders33.jpg
There's also a comic where Namor and Hulk are each holding one of Thor's arms, and they have a leverage advantage and they can't overpower him.
Thor vs Wolverine:
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Thor%20Fights/ThorvsWolverine03.jpg
Thor vs Daken:
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/4/47254/1284139-thorvsinitiative08_super.jpg
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/4/47254/1284140-thorvsinitiative09_super.jpg
King Thor vs Wolverine:
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/6/69308/1486887-how_thor_lost_his_arm_1_super.png
Now where's your evidence? How exactly does Marvel disagree with me?
So what proof do you have to back up that Wolverine could beat Thor in any capacity?
Originally posted by jinzin
"Looks like you traded speed for strength"
As in, you're stronger but slower. 😕According to Wolverine Thor's slower than Creed. Which makes perfect sense since according to that comic Wolverine is faster than Thor in h2h.
Whoops! Sorry, misread on the rearead. Yeah, blame it on no sleep on my part. >_< I kinda did a re-read and misread it that time...
Geeez, I must be slipping...! Must be the workload I'm getting. I'm usually more thorough than that....! >_<
Originally posted by Silent MasterIt "could" be true but it likely isn't.
The reverse is also true.Thor could also be faster and more skilled than Wolverine and still get tagged by him, if the gap in either category is not great enough for Thor to remain flawless
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
No, just utterly shattering your retarded logic that getting tagged and put in danger by people without light speed somehow automatically precludes someone from having heightened combat reflexes.Pay attention. Or don't. Funny how Thor's hit and grabbed speedsters. Pretty much every time he's encountered em.
Gambit's hit speedsters he must be Quicksilver, same for Cap, Spidey, Wolverine.. you probably shouldn't call other people retarded if those are the kinds of arguments you're going to make.
Originally posted by jinzinAs have Flash, as have Superman, as have Wonder Woman. Your observation isn't revelation. It's a complete non-fact. And it doesn't make Wolverine faster than Thor by default. And it doesn't negate Thor's quantifiable speed feats.
Not a correct assessment. It has more to do with the fact that Thor's tagged by tons of people without superspeed an overwhelming majority of his career.
Sorry that you believing that Thor could never hit a true speedster is disproven by the comics. Guess he can't slap bullets/lasers away, or catch tank shells, or be drawn as a blur, or be measured in microseconds, etc. Sorry. You don't like being disproven by comics or you just don't like the comics.
In any case, you weren't paying attention. Cheers. Cry more.
Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
Thor's lightning is magical in nature. It can be 1,000s of times more powerful than normal lightning, and more importantly to your question, its also much...MUCH faster. Thor has shown to be able to move FTL in both travel and combat reflexes. This is just a fact. He rarely uses it, because its not his style, and he usually doesn't need too, given there are much fewer speedsters in Marvel than in DC. Thor has been shown to be able to react to FTL characters. Thor can also deliver omnidirectional blasts, or he can electrify his body when the Flash is tagging him.In an actual comic, the Flash would probably beat Thor in their first fight just based off the surprise factor. The second time, and beyond, Thor would win the majority IMO.
IMO...
No one minus flash type peeps can fight at light speed (also northstar). thor nor any other peeps has a single showing of fighting at flash type levels.
Originally posted by PillarofOsirisAside from the fight between Thor and Wolverine? Hrm...
Yeah I suppose you're right:Wolverine vs Namor hand to hand:
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/2/25493/680325-namorfight4_super.jpg
Thor vs Namor: (Thor one shots him)
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Thor%20Stats/ThorStrength23Invaders33.jpg
There's also a comic where Namor and Hulk are each holding one of Thor's arms, and they have a leverage advantage and they can't overpower him.
Thor vs Wolverine:
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Thor%20Fights/ThorvsWolverine03.jpg
Thor vs Daken:
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/4/47254/1284139-thorvsinitiative08_super.jpg
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/4/47254/1284140-thorvsinitiative09_super.jpg
King Thor vs Wolverine:
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/6/69308/1486887-how_thor_lost_his_arm_1_super.png
Now where's your evidence? How exactly does Marvel disagree with me?
So what proof do you have to back up that Wolverine could beat Thor in any capacity?
I guess I should start by pointing out your immense failure of bringing up examples in which Thor is using lightning, or the Odin power (For God sakes)...
This thread is about hand to hand combat , this discussion is about hand to hand combat, and the wealth of examples being used in this thread are ones that pretain to hand to hand combat.
So when you state that Thor can beat Wolverine, no hammer, hand tied behind his back while responding to me about a hand to hand matchup... it stands to reason you should be talking about hand to hand. 😐
Thus your examples of Daken and Wolverine are not worth discussion with the exception of how the pretain to a h2h fight: Being Thor arguably frying Daken because he didn't want to risk a hand to hand fight. Thor blasting Wolverine after he was on a defensive end of a hand to hand fight (With both arms, and Mjolnir, AND flight). Thor being put on the defense again, and being injured by one claw swipe to a point of uselessness for his arm. Those examples do nothing BUT support the notion that Thor isn't favored in a h2h capacity.
Then there's the failure of your Namor examples.
With Wolverine, the taxed out Wolverine that you posted in your scan actually hit Namor first with two bare punches , was treating him like a nuisance, and dropped him momentarily before Namor blasted him with a punch from behind after having a little time to recover.
Unlike Thor who was punched upside the head before landing an offensive strike.
Not to mention that there are other fights as well where Namor has tanked Thor's hammer to the face while yet in others he's being dropped by 2 shots from Logan and having to be saved.
This argumentation of yours failed in every facet.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
As have Flash, as have Superman, as have Wonder Woman. Your observation isn't revelation. It's a complete non-fact. And it doesn't make Wolverine faster than Thor by default. And it doesn't negate Thor's quantifiable speed feats.Sorry that you believing that Thor could never hit a true speedster is disproven by the comics. Guess he can't slap bullets/lasers away, or catch tank shells, or be drawn as a blur, or be measured in microseconds, etc. Sorry. You don't like being disproven by comics or you just don't like the comics.
In any case, you weren't paying attention. Cheers. Cry more.
Except that Flash, Superman, and Wonder Woman all have superspeed listed as a physical attribute in combat. Thor doesn't.
They all have feats that are easily more impressive than anything Thor has ever done, and more of them. A lot more.
I never said Thor could never hit a true speedster, I just feel that him doing so would be attributed to other reasons than shear speed alone.
Cap tagging Quicksilver doesn't make him as fast as Quicksilver, it's that simple.
All those shell, bullet, lazer feats are reproduced by street levels. His are not better just because he's Thor.
Comics PROVED that Wolverine was faster than Thor in a melee confrontation as you say "on panel". No need to project your issues here.
Obviously you're more emotionally invested than I am considering your insults and "debate" tactics in this thread.
Originally posted by jinzinExcept nobody is trying to say Thor does have combat superspeed. Just that his quantifiable superspeed reflex feats far outstrip and outnumber Wolverine's. And that his career of defeating superspeedsters and just about never getting nailed by lasers/bullets doesn't turn him into a slow ponderous brute simply because he gets pitted in a fight with Wolverine. You want to cry more about the math concerning the feats, by all means. You want to straw-man, by all means.
Except that Flash, Superman, and Wonder Woman all have superspeed listed as a physical attribute in combat. Thor doesn't.
Otherwise, pay attention. This is all about Wolverine. And throwing out complete non-facts like, "zomg, Thor's been hit by people who aren't light speed" means absolute spit...
... both to Wolverine and to Thor.
Actually people are. Rage stated he thought Thor could punch at lightspeed if needed in a fight.
Thor's superspeed and reflex feats do not. You, I and Srank had a prolonged debate about this and the feats were and still are very comparible.
Thor isn't in another league just because. Having one or POSSIBLY two feats that denote he's faster doesn't dictate the majority of his career not to matter.
I've payed attention to your hypocrisies and faulty arguments. Not sure what you want me to do about them though.
Thor not having super combat/reflexive speed is not a non-fact, it's an assessment that weighs his whole career against several feats throughout it.
Originally posted by jinzinI didn't. So don't ascribe that to me and act like your complete non-facts somehow rebut my arguments. You and I aren't arguing Thor and Wolverine throw 25 punches a second.
Actually people are. Rage stated he thought Thor could punch at lightspeed if needed in a fight.
Thor's superspeed and reflex feats do not. You, I and Srank had a prolonged debate about this and the feats were and still are very comparible.
Thor isn't in another league just because. Having one or POSSIBLY two feats that denote he's faster doesn't dictate the majority of his career not to matter.
I've payed attention to your hypocrisis and faulty arguments. Not sure what you want me to do about them though.
You and srankmissingnin couldn't help but throw out aim-blocking and aim-dodging horsecrap. I didn't devolve myself down to that level because I wanted measurable quantifiable feats. You act like Thor doesn't block lasers and bullets every single comic he's in. When you wouldn't stop, I actually resorted to a battle-zone to punctuate that. The lesson still hasn't held.
Just because you can't stand that even on a feat-by-feat basis comparison, both quantifiable feats and your nonsense "whatever, aim-dodging, it's close enough" feats, Thor's above Wolverine. You want to cling to a fight where Wolverine gets two-shotted and throw out idiotic non-statements like "zomg, Thor gets tagged by people who aren't light speed" to somehow change that comparison? More. Power. To. You.
Doesn't change the fact that at any time you want to throw up a Wolverine speed feat, Thor's got better and more. So cry more.
Didn't say YOU did. You stated no one is making a claim that several people have made in this thread. "Pay attention".
People were siding on both sides of the fence.
When we compared feats, they were roughly comparible. Sorry you don't feel that way.
Wolverine didn't get two shot. That didn't happen outside your insistance or fantasies or whatever.
Arguing Thor "two shotted" Wolverine is a red herring anyway to distract from the matter of speed in which Wolverine was superior in h2h.
Thor being slightly faster than the standard brick isn't a "non-statement" whatever that means, and it's not a non-fact so to say it's idiotic is a critcism against Marvel's portrayal of Thor, not my interpretation. Though I understand if your frustration pushes you to lash out at somebody.
Except that we've done this dance, and Thor didn't.
In any case "Doesn't change the fact that" when there was a direct comparison between the two in h2h combat and Wolverine was faster.
If you are going to judge Thor by the merits of several feats in his lengthy career then clearly there is no way to logically refute Wolverine being faster than Thor on panel anyways. So.... "More. Power. To. You."
Originally posted by jinzinYou had to resort to garbage aim-blocking/aim-dodging schlock. You couldn't help it, even AFTER we had a battle-zone concerning what's measurable and quantifiable.
When we compared feats, they were roughly comparible. Sorry you don't feel that way.
Originally posted by jinzinThor two-shotted Wolverine, while holding back. Cry more about it. And the only red herring is throwing out non-facts like "zomg, Thor gets hit by people without light speed." Pot, meet kettle.
Wolverine didn't get two shot. That didn't happen outside your insistance or fantasies or whatever.
Arguing Thor "two shotted" Wolverine is a red herring anyway to distract from the matter of speed in which Wolverine was superior in h2h.
Originally posted by jinzinThor has better and more speed feats than Wolverine. You want to pretend he doesn't, fine. You want to throw out generic aim-dodging feats and pretend Thor doesn't have even more of them, fine. You want to posit non-facts like they detract from Thor? What... me showing scans of Wolverine getting hit by bullets suffices as an argument somehow?
Thor being slightly faster than the standard brick isn't a "non-statement" whatever that means, and it's not a non-fact so to say it's idiotic is a critcism against Marvel's portrayal of Thor, not my interpretation. Though I understand if your frustration pushes you to lash out at somebody.Except that we've done this dance, and Thor didn't.
In any case "Doesn't change the fact that" when there was a direct comparison between the two in h2h combat and Wolverine was faster.
If you are going to judge Thor by the merits of several feats in his lengthy career then clearly there is no way to logically refute Wolverine being faster than Thor on panel anyways. So.... "More. Power. To. You."
You don't like Wolverine getting two-shotted. You want to somehow cling to Thor's purple prose as some admission that in a fight where he is holding back (and still curbstomped) Wolverine... somehow... that negates the complete and utter feat-by-feat comparison of speed. High-end speed. None of your red herrings are going to change the fact that when a speedster fights Thor, that speedster probably gets grabbed by the scruff of his neck and owned, or that when bullets and lasers are fired at Thor he is going to block/bat them, or that when Thor fights Wolverine he will utterly wreck him.
So what are you proving? Nothing. Other than that you don't like the comics. Your pandering illogic doesn't change the comics. Your deflections and sheer ignorance of what's actually presented on-panel doesn't stop comics from disproving the straw-mans you rely on. Your "IDLI, IDH" doesn't change simple comparison of numbers. The numbers, they speak to you. And no, I'm not talkin Wolverithmetics.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
You had to resort to garbage aim-blocking/aim-dodging schlock. You couldn't help it, even AFTER we had a battle-zone concerning what's measurable and quantifiable. Thor two-shotted Wolverine, while holding back. Cry more about it. And the only red herring is throwing out non-facts like "zomg, Thor gets hit by people without light speed." Pot, meet kettle. Thor has better and more speed feats than Wolverine. You want to pretend he doesn't, fine. You want to throw out generic aim-dodging feats and pretend Thor doesn't have even more of them, fine. You want to posit non-facts like they detract from Thor? What... me showing scans of Wolverine getting hit by bullets suffices as an argument somehow?You don't like Wolverine getting two-shotted. You want to somehow cling to Thor's purple prose as some admission that in a fight where he is holding back (and still curbstomped) Wolverine... somehow... that negates the complete and utter feat-by-feat comparison of speed. High-end speed. None of your red herrings are going to change the fact that when a speedster fights Thor, that speedster probably gets grabbed by the scruff of his neck and owned, or that when bullets and lasers are fired at Thor he is going to block/bat them, or that when Thor fights Wolverine he will utterly wreck him.
So what are you proving? Nothing. Other than that you don't like the comics. Your pandering illogic doesn't change the comics. Your deflections and sheer ignorance of what's actually presented on-panel doesn't stop comics from disproving the straw-mans you rely on. Your "IDLI, IDH" doesn't change simple comparison of numbers. The numbers, they speak to you. And no, I'm not talkin Wolverithmetics.
Sorry you felt that those feats were garbage or rather stripped Wolverine of a benefit of the doubt while giving Thor a massive one.
Others at the time did AND did not agree.
No red herring about Thor being hit by slower characters than Wolverine the majority of his career, it's what's being discussed. Again the red herrings worth mentioning are those that have you ignoring Thor's admission to Wolverine's speed advantage, and Wolverine's assessment that Thor was slower than Sabretooth.
If Wolverine got two shot, I probably would not have like it... that's not what happened so it's of little relevance.
Thor fought Wolverine, he failed to utterly wreck him.
I'm proving that Thor is slower than Wolverine in combat, suggested by Thor, suggested by Wolverine, suggested by the pace of the fight. Or that Thor is typically presented as slightly above the average brick in speed, not a speedster.
On panel showings being irrelevant? Ignoring comics? "I don't like it, it didn't happen arguments"?
I can see why you so readily volunteered to being a pot or kettle here.
Your arguments are pointless. Your meandering argumentation isn't going to change the plain facts: when a speedster fights Thor, that speedster gets owned, that when bullets and lasers are fired at Thor he is going to block/bat them, that when Thor fights Wolverine he will utterly wreck him.
Then again, why wouldn't your arguments be pointless? You're arguing Thor vs Wolverine. Take a step back for a minute if you even can. That's about as dumb as Wonder Woman vs Batman. But at least Batman has on-panel handled Wonder Woman. Wolverine for his part gets two-shotted by Thor. And then you have all the phail bait-threads that ensue because of this underlying mockery. Thor vs Sabretooth and Cyber. Thor vs Gorgon and Omega Red. It's about as retarded as Wonder Woman vs Killer Croc and Bane. Or Wonder Woman vs KGBeast and Poison Ivy.
So why wouldn't all your arguments be mercilessly panned? The core tenet that underlies your motives and argumentation is, in itself, utterly absurd. And when somehow, "less feats" becomes "more feats" or "Wolverine aimblocking lasers = light speed (while Thor's isn't)" or "Thor two shots Wolverine" becomes "Thor didn't two shot him at all" or "Thor gets hit by people without light speed... so he doesn't have speed feats really" or "Wolverine can't get shot in the brain, except when he does (but it still doesn't count)."
At every juncture, I should be surprised by the utter absurdity these discussions descend towards. How long and extended these pointless discussions derail threads for (even phail bait-threads). Surprise denotes that there is no precedent. Having been on these boards for as long as I have, I know for a fact: ya'll never get tired of making these retarded arguments.
But there are times when I step back and realize... "wait, what are you making this argument for... Thor vs Wolverine... wait... what?!" That. That inextricable fact. That always makes me shake my head.
