Superman with GL Ring vs Thanos

Originally posted by quanchi112
Are you kidding ? It was greatly done and as usual you are being overly dramatic. Hacks don't give us gems like the infinity gauntlet. Kirby's darkseid isn't the I am nothing but evil morrison seid as desaad himself has explained to you. If anything morrison's work is more opposed imo than starlin's.

I also loved the art of Darkseid, Orion, etc, in death.

Darkseid doesn't call himself evil. He's lawful evil, meaning in his head he thinks he's bringing order to a chaotic universe. He doesn't go around saying "I'm evil", certainly not Morrison's Seid. Notwithstanding the Anarky conversation, the guy doesn't give a crap about labels.

Originally posted by Allankles
Darkseid doesn't call himself evil. He's lawful evil, meaning in his head he thinks he's bringing order to a chaotic universe. He doesn't go around saying "I'm evil", certainly not Morrison's Seid. Notwithstanding the Anarky conversation, the guy doesn't give a crap about labels.

God of tyranny fits better.

Originally posted by Allankles
Is that official reading order? Based on what I remember that looks like the best order for reading the event. Although the criticism of the main title is that it was a few issues short, the tie ins were handled in a very neat and concise way, which is more than you can say for many tie ins in other events.

That's the order they should be read, but Priest told about two or three issues were not in correct order.

Originally posted by quanchi112
You yourself have said multiple times he's the god of evil. He wasn't always portrayed like this especially by kirby.

He's the god of evil according to Kirby, where do you think the idea came from?

Kirby was the first to describe cults of Darkseid worshipers on Earth, that were around before DS even started aggressive operations on the planet. He wrote things like "all those who worshiped death and holocaust worshiped DS", within the very earliest stories about the character.

DS was as evil as ever under Kirby, and he was created to embody the primal foe of good in a larger than life cosmic war.

So under Kirby he's a god of death, holocaust and tyranny and rules a planet which embodies the concept or principles of negativity (which include the evil).

And just because he embodies evil, doesn't mean he says he's evil. As has been shown over and over, he's lawful evil. He believes in his plans and believes they're "good" by his perspective.

Originally posted by SquallX
That's the order they should be read, but Priest told about two or three issues were not in correct order.

Originally posted by SquallX
That's one of the bad things about events in comics. The author tries to fill everything in a few issues, and sometimes interpretation gets wacky.

Also most people sometimes don't get the whole picture in the main events because they don't read the ties in.

In my opinion to truly understand Final Crisis, this needs to be read in this order.

1. DC Universe #0
2. DC Universe: Last Will & Testament
3. Final Crisis #1
4. Final Crisis #2
5. Final Crisis: Requim
6. Final Crisis: Rogue's Revenge #1
7. Final Crisis: Rogue's Revenge #2
8. Final Crisis: Rogue's Revenge #3
9. Final Crisis #3
10. Final Crisis: Legion of Three Worlds #1
11. Final Crisis: Legion of Three Worlds #2
12. Final Crisis: Legion of Three Worlds #3
13. Final Crisis: Revelations #1
14. Final Crisis: Revelations #2
15. Final Crisis: Revelations #3
16. Final Crisis: Revelations #4
17. Final Crisis: Revelations #5
18. Final Crisis: Superman Beyond #1
19. Final Crisis: Secret Files
20. Final Crisis: Superman Beyond #2
21. Final Crisis #4
22. Final Crisis: Submit
23. Final Crisis: Resist
24. Final Crisis #5
25. Final Crisis: Legion of Three Worlds #4
26. Final Crisis: Legion of Three Worlds #5
27. Final Crisis #6
28. Final Crisis #7

I only changed two issues. FC as a whole is very hard to read and the continuity is difficult to pin down due to Darkseid crushing space/time. srug

And Darkseid has been a ruthless bastard. Keep in mind that DS's plan wasn't just to wreck the multiverse, he was going to (and got VERY VERY CLOSE TO) overthrowing GOD. As Jack Kirby himself put it: "if someone possesses absolute control over you - you're not really alive." The anti-life equation as a concept is tailor made for Darkseid.

Because Darkseid sees only his control as the proper route for all things. He doesn't seek godhood, just a means to convert existence to something resembling his ideal and philosophy.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
He's dead, he sucked, let's move on. 😄

Submit should be after Resist.

Originally posted by psycho gundam

uhuhgun3

Originally posted by Allankles
He's the god of evil according to Kirby, where do you think the idea came from?

Kirby was the first to describe cults of Darkseid worshipers on Earth, that were around before DS even started aggressive operations on the planet. He wrote things like "all those who worshiped death and holocaust worshiped DS", within the very earliest stories about the character.

DS was as evil as ever under Kirby, and he was created to embody the primal foe of good in a larger than life cosmic war.

So under Kirby he's a god of death, holocaust and tyranny and rules a planet which embodies the concept or principles of negativity (which include the evil).

No. Just...no. Absolutely not.

Virtually none of this is correct. It's wrong on a number of really fundamental levels, in fact.

I don't have the energy to go into it here, especially since I've done so so many times on this board, but Darkseid had compassion for children and respect for warriors, he had no patience for torture for torture's sake.

Darkseid was the ultimate pragmatist. He was all about PURPOSE. He was not the God of Death -- That is the Black Racer. Death is just a TOOL, the same as propaganda. It is not an end in and of itself. Pain is not an end in and of itself.

Darkseid is not 'Anti Life' in the literal sense. In Kirby's mind, the product of a war with tyranny, Freedom WAS Life. And Darkseid is control, restriction. The Anti Life Equation didn't kill anyone, it didn't torture them -- it took their will, it took their individuality, it took their freedom. That's what Darkseid is opposed to, that is what Darkseid is about.

Is Darkseid an evil person? As we define it, absolutely. He's the god of TYRANNY. But he's not the god of EVIL, as Morrison portrayed him. He's not the physical manifestation of everything evil and bad, as he was under Morrison. He was more specific, more focused, and more NUANCED than that.

That's what makes him such a great character. That is what makes him so much better than Mongul and Thanos.

And just because he embodies evil, doesn't mean he says he's evil. As has been shown over and over, he's lawful evil. He believes in his plans and believes they're "good" by his perspective.

He actually has said he was evil, straight away, under PAD. Doesn't make it right though.

I note that you're quoting Allankles and not me. vin

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
I'm not saying you don't have the official order. I just think L3W should be finished before the main story, given that FC 6 and 7 have Superman coming back from the 31st century.

I only changed two issues. FC as a whole is very hard to read and the continuity is difficult to pin down due to Darkseid crushing space/time. srug

And Darkseid has been a ruthless bastard. Keep in mind that DS's plan wasn't just to wreck the multiverse, he was going to (and got VERY VERY CLOSE TO) overthrowing GOD. As Jack Kirby himself put it: "if someone possesses absolute control over you - you're not really alive." The anti-life equation as a concept is tailor made for Darkseid.

Because Darkseid sees only his control as the proper route for all things. He doesn't seek godhood, just a means to convert existence to something resembling his ideal and philosophy.

Yeah, i know that about Darkseid. That's one of the reason i love the ugly bastard.

Darkseid saw himself as a necessary evil in the multiverse. Though Darkseid was evil, he still saw himself to be the only being worth above all else. In his mind set, there was a fine line between good, and evil. To him they weren't that different.

To me, that was the reason i liked him as one, if not Superman's best villain.

Superman is define as the pure, an noble being. Where as tDarkseid is his evil counterpart.

Then again, i might be blowing it all out of proportion, because those two are my two favorite comic book character. Superman being the #1 good guy, where as Darkseid the #1 evil bastard. 😄

Originally posted by Allankles
He's the god of evil according to Kirby, where do you think the idea came from?

Kirby was the first to describe cults of Darkseid worshipers on Earth, that were around before DS even started aggressive operations on the planet. He wrote things like "all those who worshiped death and holocaust worshiped DS", within the very earliest stories about the character.

DS was as evil as ever under Kirby, and he was created to embody the primal foe of good in a larger than life cosmic war.

So under Kirby he's a god of death, holocaust and tyranny and rules a planet which embodies the concept or principles of negativity (which include the evil).

And just because he embodies evil, doesn't mean he says he's evil. As has been shown over and over, he's lawful evil. He believes in his plans and believes they're "good" by his perspective.

It's also hysterical to hear you philosophize about him and foolishly mistake him as the god of death when it's always been the black racer. I might actually keep this in my profile to always remind you how little you even grasp of the new gods.

Darkseid was destroying the Multiverse. IIRC this was pretty much stated on panel.

Trick, your language and behaviour is going too far. Tone it down please.

Morrison and Kirby obviously had different visions of how to write Darkseid. Starlin's... Well, Starlin's a poor third, imo. Especially if we take DOTNG in to it.

Originally posted by Desaad
No. Just...no. Absolutely not.

Virtually none of this is correct. It's wrong on a number of really fundamental levels, in fact.

I don't have the energy to go into it here, especially since I've done so so many times on this board, but Darkseid had compassion for children and respect for warriors, he had no patience for torture for torture's sake.

Darkseid was the ultimate pragmatist. He was all about PURPOSE. He was not the God of Death -- That is the Black Racer. Death is just a TOOL, the same as propaganda. It is not an end in and of itself. Pain is not an end in and of itself.

Darkseid is not 'Anti Life' in the literal sense. In Kirby's mind, the product of a war with tyranny, Freedom WAS Life. And Darkseid is control, restriction. The Anti Life Equation didn't kill anyone, it didn't torture them -- it took their will, it took their individuality, it took their freedom. That's what Darkseid is opposed to, that is what Darkseid is about.

Is Darkseid an evil person? As we define it, absolutely. He's the god of TYRANNY. But he's not the god of EVIL, as Morrison portrayed him. He's not the physical manifestation of everything evil and bad, as he was under Morrison. He was more specific, more focused, and more NUANCED than that.

That's what makes him such a great character. That is what makes him so much better than Mongul and Thanos.

He actually has said he was evil, straight away, under PAD. Doesn't make it right though.

Thats very interesting, he sounds a bit like Dr Doom. Evil but with good qualities.

Originally posted by basilisk
"Ring: scan for weaknesses."
"DETECTED: DRAX WEAKNESS - FATAL FLAW FOUND IN TITAN'S PHYSIOLOGY"
"Ring: target detected weakness with a simultated Drax level attack.

👆

Originally posted by Desaad
No. Just...no. Absolutely not.

Virtually none of this is correct. It's wrong on a number of really fundamental levels, in fact.

I don't have the energy to go into it here, especially since I've done so so many times on this board, but Darkseid had compassion for children and respect for warriors, he had no patience for torture for torture's sake.

Darkseid was the ultimate pragmatist. He was all about PURPOSE. He was not the God of Death -- That is the Black Racer. Death is just a TOOL, the same as propaganda. It is not an end in and of itself. Pain is not an end in and of itself.

Darkseid is not 'Anti Life' in the literal sense. In Kirby's mind, the product of a war with tyranny, Freedom WAS Life. And Darkseid is control, restriction. The Anti Life Equation didn't kill anyone, it didn't torture them -- it took their will, it took their individuality, it took their freedom. That's what Darkseid is opposed to, that is what Darkseid is about.

Is Darkseid an evil person? As we define it, absolutely. He's the god of TYRANNY. But he's not the god of EVIL, as Morrison portrayed him. He's not the physical manifestation of everything evil and bad, as he was under Morrison. He was more specific, more focused, and more NUANCED than that.

That's what makes him such a great character. That is what makes him so much better than Mongul and Thanos.

He actually has said he was evil, straight away, under PAD. Doesn't make it right though.

I don't know what you're arguing against. I've repeated myself to Quan over and over, about the same thing. He was a God of Evil under Kirby as well. Apokoliptan gods were the gods of evil. I've read Kirby's thoughts and even seen an interview where he describes them as the gods of evil.

When Kirby wrote about the character he said and I quote "All who worship death and holocaust, worship Darkseid". The whole idea about him being the god of evil was not some independent idea from Morrison. This doesn't mean he took over the Black Racer's role (as the grim reaper of that pantheon) it simply means that he is a god "of" death, not the god of death.

In many pantheons roles can overlap. Odin is a god of war, but so was Thor. Odin was the god of the gallows, in fact he was a god of death, but not the death god. Comprende?

We had a similar argument I recall about Morrison echoing or emulating Kirby with his work, and you disputed that, and you were wrong. Everything Morrison has done has been in reference to Kirby, he never lost site of Kirby's vision in his work. Interview after interview, he's said as much. That's why his New Gods translate so well.

Also just to repeat my damn point again for clarity, and not just argument for argument's sake - because nothing you've said is in contradiction with my view of DS - Darkseid is lawful evil in his alignment.

It means that he's (on the surface) after laudable ideals, he wants peace, order and some sought of progress for the universe, however he has a sociopathic detestation for any will in opposition to his vision (that is the source of his evil). Again read the FC annotations.

No one says he enjoys torture for torture sake, but let's not pretend that he wasn't a murderer under Kirby as well. Read Hunger dogs, read what he's done, deliberately, to his people. The man is evil, that doesn't mean he's not nuanced, it just means there things about him that are like a force of nature.

You're not saying anything, that I disagreed with. The idea that he's not nuanced with the label "god of evil" is something we'll have to disagree on. As you said, he's never tortured people in a barbaric way, but he will torture the mind and spirit. He's always been about breaking the spirit, he did to the Hunger Dogs under Kirby.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Darkseid was destroying the Multiverse. IIRC this was pretty much stated on panel.

Trick, your language and behaviour is going too far. Tone it down please.

Morrison and Kirby obviously had different visions of how to write Darkseid. Starlin's... Well, Starlin's a poor third, imo. Especially if we take DOTNG in to it.

Morrison adds his own mark to the characters but he also emulates Kirby. Stuff like the Omega Sanction sending Batman back in the past and what not were his own adaptation of stuff Kirby did.

Originally posted by quanchi112
It's kinda enjoyable to see another Darkseid fan absolutely tear you apart. You don't even seem to understand the core differences between the portrayals.

It's also hysterical to hear you philosophize about him and foolishly mistake him as the god of death when it's always been the black racer. I might actually keep this in my profile to always remind you how little you even grasp of the new gods.

Now this is what I dsilike about you Quan, being over patronizing. It's a mark of a limited IQ imo. Honestly, the "god of death"? Just because I called him a "god of death" doesn't mean I gave him the Black Racer's role. You honestly think I'd forget something as obvious? How about giving people the benefit of the doubt, and ask them to calrify at least before jumping to conclusions?

If you knew anything about mythology, you'd know that roles can intersect to a point. Black Racer is death, he epitomizes it, is a personification of it, but certain aspect of that concept can overlap with the aspects of another concept. This isn't anything radical with regards to gods, and Kirby wrote the quote in question.

You guys and just jumping into arguments, I know as much about the characters as anyone. If the character is cool, there's also some room for interpretation.

Superman is a rat to Thanos human.

The rat is pretty darn fast, and will hurt the human, but at the end of the day, the human step on the rat and kills him.

The "speed kill" argument isn't good for shit, as Thanos as ftl reflex, and is just far above Sups in power. It will end like it always does when Surfer and Thanos meet.