show me some evidence, evidence, and evidence

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
So this matter would be measureable and presentable to the world in a quantifiable measure then, right?

Absolutely not...at present. My hope is that, one day, it will be, though.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
What do you say to people who's Personalities/souls/Brain's physical state have been altered physically by way of illness and or accident...?
Or everyone on earth who suddenly gets craggy/tired/hungry because their bodies state dictates their mindset, and those who show positive reaction to placebo... Seems its not totally clear that there is a soul.

Physicality seems to affect metal and spiritual states.

I have a WONDERFUL explanation for how the soul fits into all of that...and I believe I explained it, already, somewhere else. But it's a very long discussion not for this thread.

To sum up, I view the soul's influence over the body about the same as I view God's influence: almost nothing. I'm not talking about "crusades" influence, I'm talking about God pretty much not doing anything. Same with our souls: it does very little for the body.

Well, on that day, claims of the soul's existance will have some recognised validity to them....but will that automatically confirm any religion's truth? Nope. Not one bit.

No. If its proof, Bring it here, thats the purpose of the thread.

So why pray.. Worship etc? Pascal's wager?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Well, you haven't told us the ways that you evaluated your experience. What in particular makes you think it was the Christian God in favor of the many thousands of other explanations? (just starting with other deities).

[edit]: I see you listed a few while I was writing

Generally, I believe that they are all pretty much the same essence, being, or beings.

I chose the Christian God because I prayed about it and got a confirmation. I'm a lunatic, but bare with me: I felt the "Person's" presence and knew Him in a very ancient and peculiar way. It was like there was something else about me (my soul) that knew Him and recognized Him and I had no choice but to acknowledge this "spiritual" memory for what it was: He spoke to me. It would be awesome, though, if it was something much more immediately tangible...something that drew upon a "pre-wiring" in my brain, as Sadako alluded to, that created that feeling. That person or personages would still fit the bill for a god or gods...but maybe not quite so powerful.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Cool. That makes for a much more interesting story.

Also, experiences change people. For someone, that experience could actually be the throwing away of any sort of god or theisms. For others, that could be picking up religion. It's odd, but people react differently to experiences.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Well, on that day, claims of the soul's existance will have some recognised validity to them....but will that automatically confirm any religion's truth? Nope. Not one bit.

I agree. But it would be a great discovery, none-the less. Where did these spirits come from? How far do they interact with our biology? How can we tap into them? What happens to them after the body dies? Are they extra-dimensional shadows of a more complex being? Is it "our" essence or is almost an independent entity?

And so forth.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
No. If its proof, Bring it here, thats the purpose of the thread.

So why pray..? Worship etc

I answered that in Sym's post.

A better question is: why is your spiritual confirmation superior to another's who believes in Thor?

It's not, because it boils down to a personal decision.

Also, by believing in a God that wants me to be good; not out of fear, but out of a genuine desire to be good (that's what my religion wants you to believe)...so good that you can one day be "tempered" and controlled enough to create you own universe and have your own spirit children; I'm not harming anyone. If a form of my god exists, I'll be better off. If he doesn't, I still did work for my family and fellow man and that's not a bad outcome.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Alpha State, for me, is the same as homeopathics.

So why are you skeptical of homeopathics?

Originally posted by dadudemon
CIA Mind-Control experiements would not even apply as it would be irrelevant to the circumstance.

You seem to have a lot of inside knowledge about what the CIA is doing with their mind control experiments . . .

We haven't even addressed mind altering experiments by the FBI, DEA, NSA, DIA, MI6, MI5, KGB, SIS, DHS, time traveling Hitler, the Chinese, or an evil clone of yourself.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Naturally occuring DMT effect would not explain the precognition.

DMT + coincidence
DMT + hindsight bias
Any source of hallucinations + coincidence or any number cognitive biases. That's hundreds of possibilities.

Originally posted by dadudemon
ESP COULD explain it, but why haven't I been able to replicate it and why was it involuntary?

Obviously you haven't been training your psychic powers the right way 😛

Originally posted by dadudemon
Coincidence does not apply because that partcular type experience has not happened before or since then. It was also much too specific.

That's not how coincidence works . . .

Ok DDM, indeed you did address a point in the the SYM Chaos post,
Apologies for missing it the first time. 🙂

Right. So is that ancient familiarity feeling not a part of resonance with your own internal long held knowledge of the religions you were raised to be aware of + the Darwinian water retention thang?

I would be able to understand that power of the feeling of resonance,
even if it was effectively you resonating with yourself.

The subconcious does a lot of driving.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Generally, I believe that they are all pretty much the same essence, being, or beings.

I chose the Christian God because I prayed about it and got a confirmation. I'm a lunatic, but bare with me: I felt the "Person's" presence and knew Him in a very ancient and peculiar way. It was like there was something else about me (my soul) that knew Him and recognized Him and I had no choice but to acknowledge this "spiritual" memory for what it was: He spoke to me. It would be awesome, though, if it was something much more immediately tangible...something that drew upon a "pre-wiring" in my brain, as Sadako alluded to, that created that feeling. That person or personages would still fit the bill for a god or gods...but maybe not quite so powerful.

Okay, I've presented my case that's the limit of what I can do (barring some crazy scheme in which I kidnap you and use time traveling Hitler's mind control technology). Obviously this was an experience that was deeply moving and meaningful to you. I won't (and can't) challenge that fact.

What I can do is hope that you understand why I need evidence before I choose to believe things and why your personal, internal experience is not enough, no matter how powerful it may have been.

Originally posted by 0mega Spawn
not to offend the sore religious people

but why is the concept of evidence so hard to understand?
any given site ANY someone says "evidence please" and people quote scriptures on & on. sigh... its a frustrating loop -_-

its the equivalent of someone telling someone there is no hogwarts full of wizards & in response they start reading the dam spells 😆

You can not prove God. You can not prove that Earth is not the center of the universe. You can not prove we are not a brain in a vat (See Hilary Putnam in the field of epistemology. As an atheist you might find it interesting). You can not prove that we have no greater purpose. You can not prove that there is life in space 😛

The only things you can prove are the things that humanity has learnt and that barely. It took us until now to learn that it is possible for life to grow via arsenic rather than phosphorus (Bacterium GFAJ-1). This means we do not even know all there is to know about what it takes for life to exist 😉

There are more things we can not prove than there are that we can prove. Logic suggest that you should disprove God rather than that they should prove him. The strongest part of the human race is our scientific knowledge. If we can not even truth normal things like life, time, space or our own reality (Putnam) then what makes you think we have the ability to prove paranormal things? 😱

You stick to proving science since that is what you burn for and leave religion to the believers. They understand it better than you and if you just let them believe then there will come a time when you might get your answer. Patience 🙂 We do for example not know how the Egyptians built their pyramids. You can look into that 😄

That is my philosophy. Thoughts?

Originally posted by Pinkie Pie
Thoughts?

This is your third post, you use lots of similes, and you hit every single long destroyed argument for God in a single post.

Hi Whirly.

Originally posted by dadudemon
No past history of schizophrenia in the family or myself: definitely an auditory "hallucination" that also functioned as precognition. That's not outside the bounds of science, yet...but it is highly "hokey pokey" to be "science."

ESP could still be science but it is still taboo and hokey pokey for it to really be "science."

Collective Consciousness? Now we are getting too far into "God" and the discussion becomes much too philosophical to be logical (odd, isn't it?).

Additionally, since the events have only occurred twice in my life, there's no way to "study it" beyond perfect recordings of everything that happens which is many years beyond our current science. (Think of something similar to 7 Days or Final Cut.)

And, it wasn't "prayers": no prayer netted those results. It was completely random.

No, 500 years from now when we discover exactly how these rare events of precognition (not intuition which had nothing to do with it) sometimes occur. Some say luck...but my logical mind calls B.S. on it being luck since it never happened before and it has never happened since then. I say, currently, that it is God or some form of "God." 500 years from now, we may have such a deep and thorough understanding of how the universe works that things that, by all "logical" measures, were precognitive, are actually still based in science. I would like to think that there is something like collective consciousness as that would really help explain a lot but that's just as hokey pokey as believing in God, IMO.

Incorrect. There are some truths that are wonderful bodies of evidence. Those truths are only known to those individuals. Your biased against the subject of "God" is getting in the way of you realizing that.

Been reading some posts a few pages back and the reason that the Jews were hated by so many is because they were "Christ Killers." That's what they were called.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
So why are you skeptical of homeopathics?

I don't understand the question because what I stated should clearly explain your answer before you even reached the point to think a question needed to be asked.

Or am I wrong?

Have we proven that precognition works when alpha state is induced? I thought that was hokey pokey science?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
You seem to have a lot of inside knowledge about what the CIA is doing with their mind control experiments . . .

Yeah, cause they definitely have people, remote viewing me, and injecting voices into my head while simoultaneously remote viewing my sister and these thought/voices were specifically used to save her.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
We haven't even addressed mind altering experiments by the FBI, DEA, NSA, DIA, MI6, MI5, KGB, SIS, DHS, time traveling Hitler, the Chinese, or an evil clone of yourself.

You seem to have a lot of inside knowledge about what the; FBI, DEA, NSA, DIA, MI6, MI5, KGB, SIS, DHS, time traveling Hitler, the Chinese, an evil clone of myself; are doing with their mind control experiments.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
DMT + coincidence
DMT + hindsight bias
Any source of hallucinations + coincidence or any number cognitive biases. That's hundreds of possibilities.

I reject the cognitive bias as it is not sufficient. It may seem sufficient to you, but that's also a cognitive bias. You can equally apply it as "hindsight bias" to your own interpretation.

Naturally occuring DMT effect would not explain the precognition. You could say it was a combination of that an coincidence...which would be an absurdly small probability: it's similar to a team of baboons, randomly typing, eventually creating a perfect recreation of Romeo and Juliet: it's possible.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Obviously you haven't been training your psychic powers the right way 😛

Obviously. 🙂

I'm more open to it being aliens than me having ESP, though.

T

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
hat's not how coincidence works . . .

That's your interpretation, not mine.

The probability still exists, of course, and we can pretend it's a coincidence. Since I already have settled for something that resembles confirmation bias, it's too late for me: I'll never subcribe to the extremely small probability.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Okay, I've presented my case that's the limit of what I can do (barring some crazy scheme in which I kidnap you and use time traveling Hitler's mind control technology). Obviously this was an experience that was deeply moving and meaningful to you. I won't (and can't) challenge that fact.

You've certainly been much nicer about it than others.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
What I can do is hope that you understand why I need evidence before I choose to believe things and why your personal, internal experience is not enough, no matter how powerful it may have been.

What I would like is for us to be able to share these experiences, perfectly. That would be great. Then you could judge, for yourself. At the very worst, you'd have fun.

Also, internal experience is a perfect evidence, for the person.

With the highest respect, DDM, the God hypothesis is that extremely small possibility to most folk in especially in the modern age where more reasonable sounding synopses for existance have been offered, and most proven to be proof positive that ancient scriptures of all cultures and religions based on flat earth/darkages time perception was wrong .....

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
With the highest respect, DDM, the God hypothesis is that extremely small possibility to most folk in especially in the modern age where more reasonable sounding synopses for existance have been offered, and most proven to be proof positive that ancient scriptures of all cultures and religions based on flat earth/darkages time perception was wrong .....

No, the God idea is the largest probability as we still have the universe and the laws hanging around. All that other stuff you added on can be considered "fluff" and all of it may be irrelevant to that God...

This is why I said the most intelligent conclusion, possible, is agnosticism...until proven otherwise.

Originally posted by dadudemon
No, the God idea is the largest probability as we still have the universe and the laws hanging around. All that other stuff you added on can be considered "fluff" and all of it may be irrelevant to that God...

This is why I said the most intelligent conclusion, possible, is agnosticism...until proven otherwise.

Pretty sure if I actually heard God speaking to me I'd shit my underoos. Yeah, good news or bad news, there'd be a major cleanup on aisle five.

Originally posted by dadudemon
What I would like is for us to be able to share these experiences, perfectly. That would be great. Then you could judge, for yourself. At the very worst, you'd have fun.

Also, internal experience is a perfect evidence, for the person.

But not for those who he tries to convince. 🙁
(As they'd be aware under test conditions that your experience is localised to the head of the 'experiencer'...)

Again any acid trip you'd do would be just as perfectly valid an experience for you.

I mean whatever you experience, it'll never be questioned that you experienced what you did.
But would what goes on in your head will be shown to be just that, Im pretty sure....and you'd certainly not expect to be taken seriously when trying to convince us otherwise, if they things you scream are there (understandably so, as you'd be absolutely genuinely convinced by the hallucinations that you+the LSD would generate.)....but they aren't physically there.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Pretty sure if I actually heard God speaking to me I'd shit my underoos. Yeah, good news or bad news, there'd be a major cleanup on aisle five.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Pretty sure if I actually heard God speaking to me I'd shit my underoos. Yeah, good news or bad news, there'd be a major cleanup on aisle five.

😂

Originally posted by dadudemon
No, the God idea is the largest probability as we still have the universe and the laws hanging around. All that other stuff you added on can be considered "fluff" and all of it may be irrelevant to that God...

This is why I said the most intelligent conclusion, possible, is agnosticism...until proven otherwise.

Theres no proof that a god made those laws.
In fact the very likely negate his existence.
The laws of science for example.

And before anyone talks finetuning:
YouTube video

Agnosticism is fine I guess.
Agnosticism is frequently a pre state of the Atheism, in people who dont even want to believe, but are willing to hear the evidence.

Not many people cause war/string out dogmatic hate /fly into building for that.