show me some evidence, evidence, and evidence

Originally posted by dadudemon
I would love to hear those stories, sometime...but not here, of course. If we ever meet up, we can swap stories over an ounce. 😄

And, to that last statement...I absolutely detest it when people say that. You can change out the 50 for just about any number and it still is almost as stupid.

No, no...you're fine, dude. You're approaching the subject civilly. I see a significant difference between your approach and OmegaSpawn's.

title: show me evidence

you show me evidence? no
so what exactly is my approach?

Originally posted by 0mega Spawn
😆 my approach? not friendly enough ive alread said im getting frustrated 😬

title: show me evidence

you show me evidence? no
so what exactly is my approach?

Originally posted by dadudemon
Sorry, brother, but "Sync-cordings" do not exist yet. I cannot "show" you my memories in a full-matrix experience, yet.

Those events stand as 100% evidence, for me.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I would love to hear those stories, sometime...but not here, of course. If we ever meet up, we can swap stories over an ounce. 😄

And, to that last statement...I absolutely detest it when people say that. You can change out the 50 for just about any number and it still is almost as stupid.

That kinda directly implies that my point is stupid and its not.
God answering prayers cannot be shown to be a real thing....

Ironically, on 9/11, the most faithful people (Whos prayers you could DEFINITELY argue were answered) were the Muslims acting against us infidels.

Would this mean that Allah beats your god? Of course not.
That would be silly, to me, since Im pretty sure that theres no Allah either.

But its shows that religion destroys...and the destroyers in this case had a lot of conviction in their beliefs too.

So it's Occam's Razor time:

(IE:"Is it more likely that there was a war of gods that day, in which God A decides to attack the US, Yet it's god (God B, who blesses America) is beaten in a battle between gods, and God A gets to do what he likes.
All prayers from the citizens of NY and the world to save those towers and all in them are useless, God B gets to do what he likes..

Or is more likely it that theres no god?"

Originally posted by dadudemon

do you have evidence which we can see? i said read the title
show me evidence... ME. why is this so hard to grasp?

and again what exactly is my approach?

Originally posted by 0mega Spawn
can you do it again and get similar results?

Originally posted by dadudemon
Additionally, since the events have only occurred twice in my life, there's no way to "study it" beyond perfect recordings of everything that happens which is many years beyond our current science. (Think of something similar to 7 Days or Final Cut.)

Originally posted by 0mega Spawn
do you have evidence which we can see? i said read the title
show me evidence... ME. why is this so hard to grasp?

My sister is alive and unharmed.

Additionally:

Originally posted by dadudemon
Sorry, brother, but "Sync-cordings" do not exist yet. I cannot "show" you my memories in a full-matrix experience, yet.

Those events stand as 100% evidence, for me.

Also, the Universe and the laws shoud be evidence enough.

Originally posted by 0mega Spawn
and again what exactly is my approach?

A little more civil, now...but I still detect hostility.

Originally posted by dadudemon
My sister is alive and unharmed.

Additionally:

A little more civil, now...but I still detect hostility.

my sister is also alive considering anything could have happened yesterday, but it didn't 😆

I cannot "show" you my memories in a full-matrix experience, yet.

A little more civil, now...but I still detect hostility

you can imagine having to ask someone to read to title saying give me evidence... and them repeating only they have and only they can examine the evidence as evidence of their evidence 😬

Originally posted by dadudemon
I've also been in a situation that God spoke to me in such a way that it was a miracle: his advice to me probably saved my sister's life. If for no other reason, this reason alone is my evidence that God exists. One day, we may discover some sort of linking between our brain an future events which proves that we have some sort of very very rare precognition that comes in the form of a voice. No, I'm not talking about intuition. I'm talking about the once in 100,000,000 story where someone "hear's" a stern voice that tells them to stop their car; at night, when it was raining, and pull over; and then a mud-slide occurs less than a hundred feet in front of them (True story.) I'm talking about a deceased great-great-uncle visiting my grandmother in the middle of the night, warning her of a dangerous section on a road-trip the family was to take the next day and they avoided death through his warning (true story.)

These events may one day be explained by science but as of now, they are some freaky fantasy sh*t for which I chose to believe in God.

Don't you think that's a big leap? Even if we grant that you heard an outside voice speak to you it's hardly evidence of God. It just as likely to have been an alien or one of the X-men.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
That kinda directly implies that my point is stupid and its not.
God answering prayers cannot be shown to be a real thing....

Only if you have interrpretted my words in a very negative way and can only think of one way that the way "stupid" applies to your statement.

Think of ANOTHER way that my use of "stupid" can apply to that statement.

In short, I was referring to the people who claim to recieve answers to prayers NOT you for pointing out those people. In context, your interpretation doesn't even make sense to me: why would I be calling your statement stupid when I stated prior that I don't think that God answers [almost all] prayers?

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Ironically, on 9/11, the most faithful people (Whos prayers you could DEFINITELY argue were answered) were the Muslims acting against us infidels.

Would this mean that Allah beats your god? Of course not.
That would be silly, to me, since Im pretty sure that theres no Allah either.

But its shows that religion destroys...and the destroyers in this case had a lot of conviction in their beliefs too.

A tangent that is unecessary to discuss due to a misunderstanding...but...I believe in the same God Muslims do: we just have differing ideas on his nature and word.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
So it's Occam's Razor time:

(IE:"Is it more likely that there was a war of gods that day, in which God A decides to attack the US, Yet it's god (God B, who blesses America) is beaten in a battle between gods, and God A gets to do what he likes.
All prayers from the citizens of NY and the world to save those towers and all in them are useless, God B gets to do what he likes..

Or is more likely it that theres no god?"

My God is far more passive than the God you think I believe in, me thinks.

How about this:

There is only one God who interacts with his spirit children and this God very rarely does anything of any significance. It's the children that do 99.9999999999% of all the acting.

What's more likely is each side is making claims about a being that they know almost next to nothing about. Occam's razor: God, in the literal sense, had nothing to do with the attack.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Don't you think that's a big leap? Even if we grant that you heard an outside voice speak to you it's hardly evidence of God. It just as likely to have been an alien or one of the X-men.

Yes DDM but I believe that several other explanations have been offered, and you've not acknowledged them.... theres no reason for us to attribute it to a God yet, from what you described.

Its a nice story, and Im sure theres an explanation for it, assuming it was true.
But we need more than that in this debate.

We understand that you think it was god here...but how can you 1st prove that he exists, and even more relevently to your point, that it was this god that interfered, rather than it being a part of yourself/your mind/unconscious mind doing the guiding.

Cause logic suggests that inorder fo X component to be the accepted, pivotal, deciding factor, that X component is required to verifiably exist.

Else that component is the very definition of 'theoretical' 'til that point, isnt it?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Don't you think that's a big leap? Even if we grant that you heard an outside voice speak to you it's hardly evidence of God. It just as likely to have been an alien or one of the X-men.

I agree. But I'll stick with "God" until I get something else. It'd be great if it were the Professor, though.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Yes DDM but I believe that several other explanations have been offered, and you've not acknowledged them.... theres no reason for us to attribute it to a God yet, from what you described.

Its a nice story, and Im sure theres an explanation for it, if it was true.
But we need more than that in this debate.

We understand that you think it was god here...but how can you 1st prove that he exists, and even more relevently to your point, that it was this god that interfered, rather than it being a part of yourself/your mind/unconscious mind doing the guiding.

Cause logic suggests that inorder fo X component to be the accepted, pivotal, deciding factor, that X component is required to verifiably exist.

Else that component is the very definition of 'theoretical' 'til that point, isnt it?

Well, the other experience is much too personal but it involves more "voices." It's pretty solid, though, that it was God and not Professor X. So I'm either crazy and have schizophrenia or there is a God. I do not believe the former is true.

Also, I think the entire universe and the laws that govern it are a gigantic body of evidence of God's existance. Some say it was two branes colliding in 10 dimensional space: I say that God created that 10-dimensional space, too...and the laws the govern it.

So I'm either crazy and have schizophrenia or there is a God.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Only if you have interrpretted my words in a very negative way and can only think of one way that the way "stupid" applies to your statement.

Think of ANOTHER way that my use of "stupid" can apply to that statement.

In short, I was referring to the people who claim to recieve answers to prayers NOT you for pointing out those people. In context, your interpretation doesn't even make sense to me: why would I be calling your statement stupid when I stated prior that I don't think that God answers [almost all] prayers?

A tangent that is unecessary to discuss due to a misunderstanding...but...I believe in the same God Muslims do: we just have differing ideas on his nature and word.

My God is far more passive than the God you think I believe in, me thinks.

How about this:

There is only one God who interacts with his spirit children and this God very rarely does anything of any significance. It's the children that do 99.9999999999% of all the acting.

You touched on a other massive point there.
No one can agree what God is: Which makes:

A) It less likely 'the all gods are the same bit' (how do the Roman gods figure here, an persona gods, surely they are as valid as any other here.)
B) It less likely that its not subjective experience/hallucination.

Now if you'll indulge me further, who are his children. Im not.
Pretty sure that My Mum and dad were my parents.
God seems to care very little about his children.
Sound much like a neglectful parent at best, a vicious and spiteful one at worst.

If God lived in a trailer park, the Social services would be in there like a shot.
The Tangent was really a tangent, in the context of this thread's history, and some of the things Im listing for the benefit of uniformity.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I agree. But I'll stick with "God" until I get something else. It'd be great if it were the Professor, though.

😂

My question would be were you at all religious before this happened?

Like, this is the same kind of cognitive bias everyone has. When the debunkers sees man fly he's quick to say its a trick. When the true believer sees a man fly he's quick to call it proof of psi. Both of them will decide before really thinking about it, let alone looking for proof.

Or more relevantly: When a deeply religious person sees burnt toast it is a sign from God. When anyone else sees burnt toast no particular significance it attached to it (other than getting a new toaster).

So if you'd never really thought about Christianity before this and when you heard a voice you knew it was the God of Abraham, I have to admit, I'd be impressed. Otherwise the source of your decision seems very clear to me.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Well, the other experience is much too personal but it involves more "voices." It's pretty solid, though, that it was God and not Professor X. So I'm either crazy and have schizophrenia or there is a God. I do not believe the former is true.

There are lots of causes of hallucinations other than schizophrenia (hunger, illness, various drugs, lack of sleep, just waking up, just falling asleep, thirst, boredom, loneliness, strobe lights, sensory deprivation, manic states, just to name the ones that are known to be reliable). Perfectly normal people hallucinations all the time, the lifetime occurrence is somewhere between 10% and 30% according to various polls.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
You touched on a other massive point there.
No one can agree what God is: Which makes:

A) It less likely 'the all gods are the same bit' (how do the Roman gods figure here, surely they are as valid as any other here.)
B) It less likely that its not subjective experience/hallucination.

I get to pick and choose which "gods" are the same God as mine, though. That's what's great about being a crazy "faither." 🙂

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
And who are his children. Im not.
Pretty sure that My Mum and dad were my parents.

Children = spirit children.

"Prove that spirits exist."

My religion has believed that spirits are composed of, basically, "weird" form of matter. The words used are "fine." This predates things like tachyons, so it's not that far fetched: we don't have things that can measure what our spirit our and since we do not know what to look for, currently, it's difficult to prove our spirits exist or do not exist.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I agree. But I'll stick with "God" until I get something else. It'd be great if it were the Professor, though.

Well, the other experience is much too personal but it involves more "voices." It's pretty solid, though, that it was God and not Professor X. So I'm either crazy and have schizophrenia or there is a God. I do not believe the former is true.

You picked from too slim a list:

It could be:

Regular old hallucination (Ever thought you saw something in the corner of your eye that wasnt there, or misheard something...?)

The various mental illnesses you cite under the Schizophrenia umbrella

ESP

Your own higher states of consciousness

Intuition

Aliens

Coincidence

Something given to you by your brain in a daydream state

Biochemical state

CIA mind control experiments

Alpha state

Naturally occurring DMT effect

Darwinistic leftovers from when religion was our past science thousands of years ago (Still pretty recent in terms of our evolution)

PLUS the effects that Omega lists:

"There are lots of causes of hallucinations other than schizophrenia (hunger, illness, various drugs, lack of sleep, just waking up, just falling asleep, thirst, boredom, loneliness, strobe lights, sensory deprivation, manic states, just to name the ones that are known to be reliable). Perfectly normal people hallucinations all the time, the lifetime occurrence is somewhere between 10% and 30% according to various polls."

Theres probably more too, and they are all equally credible with as much more supporting proof.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
😂

My question would be were you at all religious before this happened?

Like, this is the same kind of cognitive bias everyone has. When the debunkers sees man fly he's quick to say its a trick. When the true believer sees a man fly he's quick to call it proof of psi. Both of them will decide before really thinking about it, let alone looking for proof.

Or more relevantly: When a deeply religious person sees burnt toast it is a sign from God. When anyone else sees burnt toast no particular significance it attached to it (other than getting a new toaster).

So if you'd never really thought about Christianity before this and when you heard a voice you knew it was the God of Abraham, I have to admit, I'd be impressed. Otherwise the source of your decision seems very clear to me.

Which would be an insulting assessment, of course, because it implies that I would lack the ability to logical assess my experience which isn't true, at all.

But, to be honest...I didn't really believe in God until those times. I was more of an apatheist, as Quiero Moto enlightened me on.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
There are lots of causes of hallucinations other than schizophrenia (hunger, illness, various drugs, lack of sleep, just waking up, just falling asleep, thirst, boredom, loneliness, strobe lights, sensory deprivation, manic states, just to name the ones that are known to be reliable). Perfectly normal people hallucinations all the time, the lifetime occurrence is somewhere between 10% and 30% according to various polls.

That's completely irrelevent as it's just a humorous comparison.

The joke originates from an atheist friend of mine who likened the "voices" that people claim to hear, some frequently, to a form of schizophrenia. It was a joke, and not serious. I rather like it as it's a form of self-parody but also serves to make a point for most people who get it and will not be pedantic. *ahem*

Also, the number is much closer to 4% (from what I was describing):

http://scienceblog.com/cms/can-hearing-voices-in-your-head-be-a-good-thing-11488.html

Originally posted by dadudemon
I get to pick and choose which "gods" are the same God as mine, though. That's what's great about being a crazy "faither." 🙂

Children = spirit children.

"Prove that spirits exist."

My religion has believed that spirits are composed of, basically, "weird" form of matter. The words used are "fine." This predates things like tachyons, so it's not that far fetched: we don't have things that can measure what our spirit our and since we do not know what to look for, currently, it's difficult to prove our spirits exist or do not exist.

But you just said they were all the same god. So which is it to be?

So this matter would be measureable and presentable to the world in a quantifiable measure then, right?

What do you say to people who's Personalities/souls/Brain's physical state have been altered physically by way of illness and or accident...?
Or everyone on earth who suddenly gets craggy/tired/hungry because their bodies state dictates their mindset, and those who show positive reaction to placebo... Seems its not totally clear that there is a soul....just a combination of mind (projection of the body) and body (facilitator for the minds existance) affecting each other.

Physicality seems to affect mental and 'spiritual' states.

Also mental health facilities have had a long history of people with such mental conditions as schizophrenia type disorders who think they act out a part of a divine plan, or that they are Jesus.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
You picked from too slim a list:

It could be:

Regular old hallucination (Ever thought you saw something in the corner of your eye that wasnt there, or misheard something...?)

The various mental illnesses you cite under the Schizophrenia umbrella

ESP

Your own higher states of consciousness

Intuition

Aliens

Coincidence

Something given to you by your brain in a daydream state

Biochemical state

CIA mind control experiments

Alpha state

Naturally occurring DMT effect

Darwinistic leftovers from when religion was our past science thousands of years ago (Still pretty recent in terms of our evolution)

Theres probably more too, and they are all equally credible with as much more supporting proof.

Intuition is not correct, as I've pointed out, already.

Alpha State, for me, is the same as homeopathics.

CIA Mind-Control experiements would not even apply as it would be irrelevant to the circumstance.

Naturally occuring DMT effect would not explain the precognition.

ESP COULD explain it, but why haven't I been able to replicate it and why was it involuntary? (I don't really believe in the sci-fi ESP stuff like TK. Remote viewing is possible, but hasn't been definitively proven. The list goes on.)

Coincidence does not apply because that partcular type experience has not happened before or since then. It was also much too specific.

God IS an Alien. 🙂 And if it were Aliens, they would be gods by some definition which could be my own.

Higher states of consciousness, as I pointed out earlier, very well could be this "god" or "gods" that are referred to.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Which would be an insulting assessment, of course, because it implies that I would lack the ability to logical assess my experience which isn't true, at all.

Well, you haven't told us the ways that you evaluated your experience. What in particular makes you think it was the Christian God in favor of the many thousands of other explanations? (just starting with other deities).

[edit]: I see you listed a few while I was writing

Originally posted by dadudemon
But, to be honest...I didn't really believe in God until those times. I was more of an apatheist, as Quiero Moto enlightened me on.

Cool. That makes for a much more interesting story.