Better question: Why not genocide humanity? We will save billions of lives. More ... many, many more. If there is no divine purpose for our existence, why not do simply end it all?
You speak of history. If it is one thing history has taught us, it is that humanity will always kill. No matter if religion is part of it or not. Do not blame religion for the idiocy of man.
Or so you believe. You can not prove that it is man-made, so don't make such a statement. It is man-enforced, that is truth.
If religion did not exist, though, humanity would find other reasons to wage war. We are a hostile race by nature. Politics is as much a reason to war as religion.
Don't say religion is the problem. It's not. Humanity is the problem.
Originally posted by Super Marie 64
Having faith is one thing. Exercising it on others is another.
You don't think one might lead to the other?
Originally posted by Super Marie 64
I see no reason to ask another to prove their belief.
When a person says "x is true" that's plenty of reason to ask them why. Otherwise you have a bunch of concepts and no idea which ones are worth pursuing. If a religion showed up that had good evidence that it's God existed I would be all over that shit. Who wouldn't like a super powered buddy?
Originally posted by Super Marie 64
I do not believe in God, but I can not say that those who does is wrong. I am also smart enough to realize that even if he is real, he can not be simply proven by mortal means. People would not have been trying for the past thousand years if it was that easy. To ask someone "prove God" is stupid. [/B]
The challenge is a philosophical one not a practical one. The point to expose people to the fact that they believe something for no good reason. After that they're free to continue believing what they want but at least they've had to think, that's a good thing.
Originally posted by Super Marie 64
[b]Or so you believe. You can not prove that it is man-made, so don't make such a statement. It is man-enforced, that is truth.If religion did not exist, though, humanity would find other reasons to wage war. We are a hostile race by nature. Politics is as much a reason to war as religion.
Don't say religion is the problem. It's not. Humanity is the problem.
[/B]
You say that like that entirely well earned and reasonable 'belief' is somehow unsound.....I can believe it or not, its still there as a fact.
(Big difference it would seem, compared to the matter of the existance of god in both believers non believers and ex-believers alike.)
Religion is man made.
Scientology: L Ron Hubbard...
Mormonism: Joseph Smith...
Just two examples or recent religions that we saw created...
You might wanna look up the church of england (Henry XIII) too.
How about the Lutherian Church? (Martin Luther)
So as we look back through history right to the Romans and their polytheism, mad creates God.
Ergo I have proved it.
And its NO stretch whatsoever to apply that to every other religion, as a model for its creation, just as looking at how stars are formed explains nicely the origin of our sun.
Originally posted by Super Marie 64
[b]Better question: Why not genocide humanity? We will save billions of lives. More ... many, many more. If there is no divine purpose for our existence, why not do simply end it all?You speak of history. If it is one thing history has taught us, it is that humanity will always kill. No matter if religion is part of it or not. Do not blame religion for the idiocy of man.
[/B]
Also, this nihilistic thinking is ridiculous.
"What if theres no slavemaster watching over you, why dont you and the other slaves all kill yourself...??"
F*** that. Lets explore the stars and better ourselves.
Paint, create, write music, be free and happy....and be nice to each other, knowing that the actions we take are our own. 🙂
Statements like that calling for such lazy mass suicide, are part of the problem....its important that we stop the loons who espouse it from getting too much control.
Zionism is a big "why we should demand proof" point too in a nuclear age, dont you agree?
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
You don't think one might lead to the other?When a person says "x is true" that's plenty of reason to ask them why. Otherwise you have a bunch of concepts and no idea which ones are worth pursuing. If a religion showed up that had good evidence that it's God existed I would be all over that shit. Who wouldn't like a super powered buddy?
The challenge is a philosophical one not a practical one. The point to expose people to the fact that they believe something for no good reason. After that they're free to continue believing what they want but at least they've had to think, that's a good thing.
If it does, it becomes the mentioned other thing.
When they say "X is true" you have all the reason in the world to ask them why they say so, because they are (Like Sadako back there) stating something that ain't absolute as an absolute.
If they say "I believe in X", you suddenly have no reason to do so beyond your personal curiosity. They aren't forcing a truth, or claiming their belief absolute. They just believe. It's important to pull these two cases apart. They aren't the same, and it's the latter that I defend.
The former is not necessarily false in the sense that it might be true to that person, but it's the wrong approach on the matter, because it's not an absolute truth, only a subjective one.
Most believe for one reason or the other. As a result of raising, trauma, answers or comfort of some sort. Some just believe, because it feels right, because of an epiphany, because it makes sense or for whatever other reason.
There's the ever-so-popular saying "Ignorance is bliss" that make me disagree with you. If an individual is happy with his faith, and his faith does in no way impair society or the people around him, what reason do you have to foil this? The only thing that would come out of it, is that he'd not unlikely become a less happy individual because you took away a purpose of living by disproving it.
I think that religion is the mechanism that allows such power to be.
Presidents being elected with it being sold to the voter that their being willing to blindly believe in fundamentalist religions is somehow better than electing a free thinking, less controllable Atheist President.
Nazis marching into battle with "God mit uns" on their belts.
Yes the nazis committed truely evil shit safe in the 'knowledge' that god was with them.
9/11.
Israel.
Ireland.
Bosnia.
The list goes on and on and on of wars caused, or aided by/orchestrated with religion.
My simultaneous recognition of the fact that religion is not the ONLY cause of conflict, takes not one thing away from the fact that Religion does all this, and should not hold the power that man affords it..
Going with my 'religion being the gun' analogy again, sure, man might have to find a way to kill some other way, but it'd be damned harder for them to kill as easily or readily, were the gun not there.
As it was once said "You can get a 'Bad' person to do good things, you can get a 'bad' person to commit a 'good' deed.... But to get a 'good' person to commit such horrors, you have to use religion."
Meanwhile, there is no act of goodness that a religious person can and does do, that an atheist or indeed anti-theist can't do. 🙂
Tony Blair lost the Munk debate before Xmas....in a landslide kicking.
Tony Blair, Ex Prime Minster of England, Trained Laywer, the head of a multi-faith profaith organisation in Israel lost when Hitchens spanked him on the question of "Is religion a force of good in the world."
You would find it fascinating, Im sure... Its up on YT should you want to review it. (Its very pertinent to this debate.)
All the subsequent parts are in the related section..you know the drill.
World War, American Civil War, Yugoslav Wars. Not religion. Death. I could not help but notice that you did not actually disagree with my case.
You don't really think humanity would have to look for another reason to kill eachother, do you? Politics will remain, and it's killed a great deal as well. Then there's ethnicity, and lets not forget land. People will always want more land.
Religion was featured and used as control/motivation/facilitation in those examples.
America was a bunch of guys who left England fleeing the constant theocratic facism that dogged the country back then.
Yes, we argue over things like land ..and have tribal, cultural beefs..
But arguing to the knife about imaginary real estate allocations made by invisible sky creatures, or killing an entire race because "your god not only allows it, but actively demands it" makes that situation way worse.
Politicians and religion are so infused, that its almost impossible to tell where politics's nose ends and religion's ass begins: They are control systems...
Well lets revise both maybe...that seems the way forward.
World War 2. Ethnicity. Hitler was targeting the Jewish race, not the Jewish religion.
~20-60 million dead in Soviet during the same years. Politics. Delusion of Grandeur.
American Civil War. Politics.
Yugoslav Wars. Ethnicity, Nationality. Religion was just part of the mix. It would've happened anyway.
For a topic closer at heart, Sweden has waged open war more frequently than many other current countries in history and not because of religion. One of the most peaceful major changes in our country history was the REFORMATION! That was before we decided to become a world power (Politics)
You can't help yourself, can you? You must involve religion where it has no Earthly business. Are you so naive as to think that religion is what fuel the hate of humanity? If we did not have religion, we'd find other ways to segregate ourselves. Excuses beyond politics, land and ethnicity.
Heck, if religion did not exist, people would INVENT IT. I know you think this will help your case, but don't even go there. My point is that the problem is not religion. The problem is humanity's need to control. If God did not exist, or just had not come to us, humanity would invent religion because it would be another tool for control. Not saying it's not today, but that's strenghtening my point that religion is not the problem.
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
"Wanna cookie..?"
LOLZ at the self-grandisation.More absurdity/irrelevancy...all you can do is grandstand and stuff.
I proved early in the thread that Science disproved much of the bible's universe origin story, and cited the ignorance of the theological camps anger at science......and how those who were so convinced of the god did it explanation, were revealed to be full of shit. 🙂
We have TONNES of proof that the universe doesnt revolve around earth, despite those who spoke for god's claims.
To ignore that too, as well as carbon dating, physics, biological science IE evolution and everything else that refutes biblical claims is insane.
And to condemn me for raising it, and proceeeding to strawtroll is a bit cheeky.
How is disproving the stories from the Bible or the Bible itself, disproving God exists in any way?
Well, at that point I was addressing the historical fallibility of man's misplaced faith in scripture. The bible was picked as an example that most westerners would at least be more familiar with. 🙂
Similar methods can be applied to pretty much all scripture in all religions, I was just drilling on the 'nearest' one to most folks here, I guess for communication's sake..
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Well, at that point I was addressing the historical fallibility of man's misplaced faith in scripture. The bible was picked as an example that most westerners would at least be more familiar with. 🙂Similar methods can be applied to pretty much all scripture in all religions, I was just drilling on the 'nearest' one to most folks here, I guess for communication's sake..
You mean the same faith you put in scriptures and records proving the likes of Julius Caesar? Being critical to scriptures, to texts in the Bible is no different from being critical to historical records of various figures.
The only difference, is that it's not socially acceptable to question the history books. You are viewed as a crazy person, because Science is during the 21st century is what Christianity was during the 16th. Science is the new religion, and you can't question that.
Christianity though, that's yesterday's news. Feel free to question that however much you want, by being critical in a way that would function for the history books prior to 19th century just as well.
Originally posted by Super Marie 64
[b]World War 2. Ethnicity. Hitler was targeting the Jewish race, not the Jewish religion.
~20-60 million dead in Soviet during the same years. Politics. Delusion of Grandeur.
American Civil War. Politics.
Yugoslav Wars. Ethnicity, Nationality. Religion was just part of the mix. It would've happened anyway.For a topic closer at heart, Sweden has waged open war more frequently than many other current countries in history and not because of religion. One of the most peaceful major changes in our country history was the REFORMATION! That was before we decided to become a world power (Politics)
You can't help yourself, can you? You must involve religion where it has no Earthly business. Are you so naive as to think that religion is what fuel the hate of humanity? If we did not have religion, we'd find other ways to segregate ourselves. Excuses beyond politics, land and ethnicity.
Heck, if religion did not exist, people would INVENT IT. I know you think this will help your case, but don't even go there. My point is that the problem is not religion. The problem is humanity's need to control. If God did not exist, or just had not come to us, humanity would invent religion because it would be another tool for control. Not saying it's not today, but that's strenghtening my point that religion is not the problem.
[/B]
Stawmannery.
Hitler USED religion to successfully achieve his historic acts.
The roman catholic church even used to celebrate Hitler's birthday during his tenancy.
He used religion as a mechanism to get his followers to do what they did: They marched into battle 'knowing' that "god mit uns" ("god with us."😉 was the deal.
Yeah Swedens doene this Swedens done that, Im sure.
They have never gotten up to the levels of the faithful though, like the Nazis, the Islamic extremists....How many Swedish Suicide bombers are there/were there....? The lack of them suggests that your argument is weakened, not strengthened.
You cant help yourself..you have to preemptively deny any religious involvement and amplification of the problem, whitewashing where ever you go... that when the mischararacterisation attempts like THAT bit of your post come out, I guess. 🙁
Religion has earthly business everywhere, it would seem, it being entirely man made and perpetuated....
Religion, if seem for what it is, by the world wouldn't get the power it does to make the good guys do the bad things.
Then we could move on to tackling the other causes of war unmolested.
Yes. Its patently clear that youre right in your statement that if religion didnt exist man would invent it...as I showed above: HE DID IT BEFORE...... A LOT....(as I successfully showed)....and it was so successful, that nuts aided by Allah would fly planes into buildings on 9/11, whilst he ignored the prayers of those on the planes and the buildings that they should live.
If your intention is to play devils advocate, great...It can make for a good debate, usually....
But at least lets try to read my posts before you write new ones, please, as I have actually covered all this. 🙂