Marvel speed vs DC speed

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
He'd have to hit him first. And believe it or not, BFRing Prime to another dimension might not work. He might just punch his way back.

If he could hit him with it, then ok, I'd give him a nod. But like I said, given who Prime is, I don't think he CAN keep him BFRed.

I don't think Thor bfring have anything to do with him hitting someone. Its not a beam that he is shooting.

The only way Prime could prevent this bfring situation from happening is by covering the distance before Thor got the chance to swing his arm and that ain't happening.

So again, would you have a problem with someone saying Prime would lose 10/10 against Thor via bfring?

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
This is ****ing rediculous. So speed would no longer be a factor? What utter bull****ery. You [b]should have to prove you can actually hit someone with high combat speed. Ignoring it means we might as well scrap the full capacity rule. Making them fight as they do in comics means we might as well just become CBR or Herochat. 👇 [/B]

No one is saying ignore speed altogether but we also shouldn't ignore characters who have shown the ability to negate said speed advantage when they have shown the reflexes to be able to do so.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
He'd have to hit him first. And believe it or not, BFRing Prime to another dimension might not work. He might just punch his way back.

If he could hit him with it, then ok, I'd give him a nod. But like I said, given who Prime is, I don't think he CAN keep him BFRed.

Originally posted by Existere
It hurts who?

We just need one singular rule that states that characters fight as they fight in the comics. That we don't change characters or behavior to what we believe would make more sense, but simply leave the characters as is and actually discuss what would happen if they encountered each other and brawled.

Originally posted by carver9
I don't think Thor bfring have anything to do with him hitting someone. Its not a beam that he is shooting.

The only way Prime could prevent this bfring situation from happening is by covering the distance before Thor got the chance to swing his arm and that ain't happening.

So again, would you have a problem with someone saying Prime would lose 10/10 against Thor via bfring?

.............Wait what? "The only way Prime could prevent this bfring situation from happening is by covering the distance before Thor got the chance to swing his arm and that ain't happening."

He's countered a triple speed-blitz by 3 flashes. He's moved as fast as Superman or even faster. He can easily hit Thor before Thor even blinks.

Also, isn't the BFR a portal? Or at least an energy field? What's stopping Prime from just punching through it?

You're the one who has to prove he can hit Prime with it, not me. Prime has speed feats, Thor doesn't.

And once again, what makes you think BFRing him would stick? Odds are he would just punch back anyway.

Quan: Comparing speed force entrappment or a Guardian's suicide blast, to Thor, is rediculous. Totally different. 2nd, HE DID punch his way out of the speed force.

The BFR in question can be a storm, a vortex, a beam, or by simply slamming the handle of Mjolnir on the ground.

@Trick

It's both examples of bfring to which Prime had to later come back from. Bfr means you can't return in a reasonable amount of time under your own power so he'd lose in both instances.

Also, he doesn't attack and speed blitz, ever. He's used his speed defensively before but usually bricks it out with whoever he fights so this cbr prime who isn't portrayed this way doesn't pass go.

When prime has returned is when he's gotten lucky enough to punch through barriers which wouldn't happen if Thor bfr'd him.

I for one don't see Thor bfring him as a likely possibility anyways and won't cbr Thor up just to get him a win over Prime. Anyways this is off topic and will slowly derail the thread so leave it as is.

I agree, I give Prime 10/10 against Thor... I was just giving Trick an example of a character fighting in a made up fashion like everyone was giving examples of earlier (basically out of character).

Originally posted by carver9
I agree 100% with this. That's why I'm not the type that throws off... Glads will be untouchable to Thor because he has FTL reflexes. His history say otherwise. He has CONSISTENLY been tagged by similar people. I would also give Hulk the edge against him because again, consistency.

I can't THINK of an instant where Glads has fought at light speed. He has showings of working on a computer at hyper speed but its different imo, especially when you have something fighting back and again, him not showing that he can fight a moving target at those speeds.

You shouldn't. Because characters don't always use their speed or top abillities not because of their personalities but because the writer needs a story that can last more than 2 pages.

Think about it. If Superman blitzed everyone who didn't have superspeed then Superman comics would get boring pretty fast. It's the writers, not the characters. That is why we have the full capacity rule here.

Originally posted by carver9
I agree, I give Prime 10/10 against Thor... I was just giving Trick an example of a character fighting in a made up fashion like everyone was giving examples of earlier (basically out of character).

Originally posted by h1a8
You shouldn't. Because characters don't always use their speed or top abillities not because of their personalities but because the writer needs a story that can last more than 2 pages.

Think about it. If Superman blitzed everyone who didn't have superspeed then Superman comics would get boring pretty fast. It's the writers, not the characters. That is why we have the full capacity rule here.

In every comic Flash, Zoom, and Quick Silver is in, they blitz throughout the entire fight but it is still interesting. If the characters are true speedsters, the writers would also match their rogue gallary with similar characters and it could still lead to an interesting story.

Its just that simple.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
.............Wait what? "The only way Prime could prevent this bfring situation from happening is by covering the distance before Thor got the chance to swing his arm and that ain't happening."

He's countered a triple speed-blitz by 3 flashes. He's moved as fast as Superman or even faster. He can easily hit Thor before Thor even blinks.

Also, isn't the BFR a portal? Or at least an energy field? What's stopping Prime from just punching through it?

You're the one who has to prove he can hit Prime with it, not me. Prime has speed feats, Thor doesn't.

And once again, what makes you think BFRing him would stick? Odds are he would just punch back anyway.

Quan: Comparing speed force entrappment or a Guardian's suicide blast, to Thor, is rediculous. Totally different. 2nd, HE DID punch his way out of the speed force.

And it was quite the feat.

Originally posted by Existere
Why should the rules reinforce ignoring how a character behaves in 99% of their appearances?

precisely. and it woudn't negate the speed advantage at all--flash is STILL fastest. it would mean it is no longer viable to say he is IMPOSSIBLE TO HIT!!1!1 why not? because he IS hit. often. and amen to abolishing the pis/cis/jobbing terms. i've said that for a long time. some good stuff here though. it's like airing dirty laundry. 😂

I've taken speed it was hot...

So now that we've established that reflexes and top speed aren't one in the same... So it's concluded that this is how people deal with speed right? Good.

Originally posted by leonidas
precisely. and it woudn't negate the speed advantage at all--flash is STILL fastest. it would mean it is no longer viable to say he is IMPOSSIBLE TO HIT!!1!1 why not? because he IS hit. often. and amen to abolishing the pis/cis/jobbing terms. i've said that for a long time. some good stuff here though. it's like airing dirty laundry. 😂

The argument that "it's completely within their powerset to speedblitz" highlights that the whole debate focuses on debating powersets, not characters.

Characters limit themselves and we shouldn't ignore that.

PIS/CIS/Full Capacity lack clear definition to avoid contradicting one another.

Originally posted by Existere
Exactly

The argument that "it's completely within their powerset to speedblitz" highlights that the whole debate focuses on debating powersets, not characters.

Characters limit themselves and we shouldn't ignore that.

PIS/CIS/Full Capacity lack clear definition to avoid contradicting one another.

That's why there's a huge incongruence between KMC outcomes and actual comic outcomes.

On KMC, Thor vs Hulk, people would give thor 10/10 due to Thor's versatility. Whereas in comics, they're clearly very evenly matched.

Flash on KMC is an unbeatable god...unless you have FTL speed, don't even dream of beating him. In comics, he's not even the most powerful Justice League member.

I would definitely join you and Leonidas in supporting a debate of a character's average representations as opposed to simply taking their most insane feats, as it completely misconstrues results.

Originally posted by Existere
What a concrete argument you have.

Why should the rules reinforce ignoring how a character behaves in 99% of their appearances?

That's neither here nor there when discussing characters like Supes or Flash. Both guys use speed as a large part of their day to day heroics. As far as fighting goes, Supes will use his speed when it benefits him to do so, unlike the Flash, he also has the option of brawling.

There's no intrinsic mental block or personality issue that controls whether or not Supes will use his speed. He uses it where appropriate, in situations where it benefits him to do so (avoiding Darkseid's omegas, blitzing groups of enemies many times throughout the years, stopping disasters or preventing deaths).

It's just a big part of his character, not like one of those one off esoteric powers that other heralds use.

Originally posted by Allankles
There's no intrinsic mental block or personality issue that controls whether or not Supes will use his speed.

This is the entire reason why people make a distinction between "Comics Flash" and "Forum Flash". The distinction is huge, which is telling that the debate system is flawed.

Originally posted by Existere
Actually, there is. He's a comic book character. It's intrinsic to the nature of comic book characters that maximum powersets aren't used for the sake of a fight. We shouldn't try and alter that (as it is, at the end of the day, their behavior and personality) in order to have a forum match. To do so would be to argue with different characters- not the ones that we read in the comics.

This is the entire reason why people make a distinction between "Comics Flash" and "Forum Flash". The distinction is huge, which is telling that the debate system is flawed.

Existere, are you trying to impress me? jk 😛

Originally posted by Existere
PIS/CIS/Full Capacity lack clear definition to avoid contradicting one another.

Originally posted by Existere
Exactly

The argument that "it's completely within their powerset to speedblitz" highlights that the whole debate focuses on debating powersets, not characters.

Characters limit themselves and we shouldn't ignore that.

PIS/CIS/Full Capacity lack clear definition to avoid contradicting one another.

They wouldn't risk killing the opposition, or something similar happening. That's called CIS.

But at the same time, the likes of Thor, Hulk, Surfer tagging him is a sign of PIS, and inadmissible on the forum, because Flash would percieve them as statues. You could, on the other hand, that Superman would let himself be hit in order to gauge an opponent's strength, but he, too, should be untaggable given his perception and reaction time.

See the difference?

Originally posted by Starscream M
Yep, I've noticed for the longest time that KMC is becoming a debate of powersets rather than characters...or just taking the high feats of a character and treating that as representative of the character.

That's why there's a huge incongruence between KMC outcomes and actual comic outcomes.

On KMC, Thor vs Hulk, people would give thor 10/10 due to Thor's versatility. Whereas in comics, they're clearly very evenly matched.

Flash on KMC is an unbeatable god...unless you have FTL speed, don't even dream of beating him. In comics, he's not even the most powerful Justice League member.

I would definitely join you and Leonidas in supporting a debate of a character's average representations as opposed to simply taking their most insane feats, as it completely misconstrues results.

I think averages are already taken into consideration when discussing these characters. Low end feats are just that, we take what a character successfully accomplishes on average, and where his limitations are as well.

You can impose a limitation of speed on certain characters, but not the likes of the Flashes or Supes. It's hardly a"high end" feat when both guys blitz an opponent, unless said opponent was much higher than they were on the totem pole.