Marvel speed vs DC speed

Originally posted by Philosophía
Most character, specifically heroes like Flash or Superman, limit themselves in the way that they wouldn't deliver lightspeed+ attacks in the first nanosecond of the battle, yes.

They wouldn't risk killing the opposition, or something similar happening. That's called [b]CIS.

But at the same time, the likes of Thor, Hulk, Surfer tagging him is a sign of PIS, and inadmissible on the forum, because Flash would percieve them as statues. You could, on the other hand, that Superman would let himself be hit in order to gauge an opponent's strength, but he, too, should be untaggable given his perception and reaction time.

See the difference? [/B]

Originally posted by Philosophía
Most character, specifically heroes like Flash or Superman, limit themselves in the way that they wouldn't deliver lightspeed+ attacks in the first nanosecond of the battle, yes.

They wouldn't risk killing the opposition, or something similar happening. That's called [b]CIS.

But at the same time, the likes of Thor, Hulk, Surfer tagging him is a sign of PIS, and inadmissible on the forum, because Flash would percieve them as statues. You could, on the other hand, that Superman would let himself be hit in order to gauge an opponent's strength, but he, too, should be untaggable given his perception and reaction time.

See the difference? [/B]

At the end of the day though, making that distinction results in ignoring every time Flash gets hit, ever (save against Zoom types).

Given that it's a large part of their character to get hit by those slower than them, to alter that or ignore that is to ignore their character and the battles themselves.

That's stupid.

Instead it should be reasoned that Flash simply doesn't access as much speed (including for perception and dodging) against significantly slower enemies as he does against, say, Superman.

He should fight say, Gambit, like he fights his rogues. That's how the character operates in comics, and I'd like to see that character debated rather than the KMC version of him.

Originally posted by Starscream M
it could be argued that it is a character flaw of Flash that he either isn't always fully focused or utilizing his speed advantage to the max when he fights, hence getting tagged by slower foes.

But going by that line of thinking, why would he be distracted and not fully focused in a forum fight?

Originally posted by Allankles
I think averages are already taken into consideration when discussing these characters. Low end feats are just that, we take what a character [b]successfully accomplishes on average, and where his limitations are as well.
[/B]

How does Flash, on average, fight against opponents without super speed?

How does Thor, on average, fight bricks?

It's all part of their personality and should be taken into account like any other aspect of their character.

Philo still acting like the person with the fatest 100 yard dash.. is also the one with the fastest reaction time and reflexes. Even though that couldn't be further from the truth. Have quick reaction time is what keeps people able to "compete" with Bolt. The same is true in comics.. only "competing" in comics means they can react fast enough to tag a speedster. It's really that simple. It's not PIS for them to do so. Thus, when it happens ALL the time.. it's no longer PIS.. it becomes evident that speedsters can and will be reacted to, which is now the norm.. not some PIS situation. When something happens over and over.. it's not PIS anymore.

Originally posted by Philosophía
It couldn't be, as the comics makes it quite clear that he doesn't need to activate his superspeed.

But going by that line of thinking, why would he be distracted and not fully focused in a forum fight?

That's the bottom line, really.

Originally posted by Existere
I see the distinction you're attempting to make.

At the end of the day though, making that distinction results in ignoring every time Flash gets hit, ever (save against Zoom types).

Given that it's a large part of their character to get hit by those slower than them, to alter that or ignore that is to ignore their character and the battles themselves.

That's stupid.

Instead it should be reasoned that Flash simply doesn't access as much speed (including for perception and dodging) against significantly slower enemies as he does against, say, Superman.

He should fight say, Gambit, like he fights his rogues. That's how the character operates in comics, and I'd like to see that character debated rather than the KMC version of him.

We don't discuss these battles in terms of them taking place in an actual story - but taking place in a specific one on one enviorment, where non of the plot-induced conveniences, distractions or idiocies are taking place while the opponents are still in character.

Either way, what you're proposing is similar to how herochat debates, theoretically - they take everything into consideration, even low-showings, and average out the abilities/performances. In theory, that's excellent - but that mostly encourages bias and trolling the opposition, as average isn't something concrete, and everybody can play up one character higher than another (which is what happened on herochat, that's why it's regarded as so bad).

Originally posted by Existere
Doesn't really matter. Even in fights where he's focused, Flash doesn't operate at 100% against opponents of lower power levels.

That's the bottom line, really.

My problem with averaging low showings in is that they are often just that low showings generally attributed to some form of A) Holding Back, B) Plot Element, or C) Need for interesting story.

When we kniow the character even on average can do so much more.

Originally posted by Philosophía
It couldn't be, as the comics makes it quite clear that he doesn't need to activate his superspeed.

But going by that line of thinking, why would he be distracted and not fully focused in a forum fight?

ie, if batman had flash's speed, he'd prob job less because mentally he is so focused and will prob use his powers to its near max

flash, on the other hand, simply isn't as mentally focused and therefore doesn't always maximize his gifts.

Originally posted by Philosophía
I wouldn't say it's a huge part of their character to get hit by slower opponents - I'd say it's a huge part of the story medium for the faster characters to job so that they don't finish the fights in the first fraction of time.

We don't discuss these battles in terms of them taking place in an actual story - but taking place in a specific one on one enviorment, where non of the plot-induced conveniences, distractions or idiocies are taking place while the opponents are still in character.

You need to preserve their behavior in order to debate those characters. Therefore, you can't toss out elements of their behavior on the basis that 'it was just for plot'. It's still how they behave. At the end of the day, everything in comics is PIS.

Originally posted by Philosophía
Either way, what you're proposing is similar to how herochat debates, theoretically - they take everything into consideration, even low-showings, and average out the abilities/performances. In theory, that's excellent - but that mostly encourages bias and trolling the opposition, as average isn't something concrete, and everybody can play up one character higher than another (which is what happened on herochat, that's why it's regarded as so bad).

Ahhhh the whole it's part of the story eh Philo.. It's the SAME part of the story that allows superman to even win when he has NO business doing so. He'll struggle lifting a building.. yet can push the earth out of orbit? hmmmm.. He is stated to have NO chance to beat x, y, and z and "somehow" manages to do so... why BECAUSE HE IS SUPPOSED TO WIN. Thus using your logic we could call him winning a case of PIS.. since he's a hero and has to win, but not because he's more powerful

Originally posted by Newjak
My problem with averaging low showings in is that they are often just that low showings generally attributed to some form of A) Holding Back, B) Plot Element, or C) Need for interesting story.

When we kniow the character even on average can do so much more.

Originally posted by Newjak
My problem with averaging low showings in is that they are often just that low showings generally attributed to some form of A) Holding Back, B) Plot Element, or C) Need for interesting story.

When we kniow the character even on average can do so much more.

a low showing would be superman struggling to lift a plane or something, ie something that really can't be explained by his character or state of mind

flash being tagged I feel is different as it can be explained by his mentality.

Originally posted by Newjak
My problem with averaging low showings in is that they are often just that low showings generally attributed to some form of A) Holding Back, B) Plot Element, or C) Need for interesting story.

When we kniow the character even on average can do so much more.

Originally posted by Existere
How can you say what the character "on average" can do, if you're not going take low showings into the average?

in statistics, they remove the extremes from both ends to get the best idea of the average

Originally posted by Philosophía
That doesn't apply just to low showings, though - but pretty much every time the writer doesn't want the faster character (Flash, Superman) to end the fight.

My thought on the matter in general is this.

High Showings = character at top of their game they ate their Wheaties that day and took a multi-vitamin.

Average Showings = Character at normal operating levels. They had a decent rest.

Low Showings = Character off their game they have the flu or something.

Now my version of CIS is this. Each character as a general core concept of rules. CIS means that they will not violate those rules.

I feel that Flash wouldn't kill an opponent but he is going to be using his best speed.

Originally posted by Existere
But averages require context.

How does Flash, on average, fight against opponents without super speed?

How does Thor, on average, fight bricks?

It's all part of their personality and should be taken into account like any other aspect of their character.

I don't think it's part of Flash's personality (logically looking at things) to get hit by slower guys. You can make the argument that lack of focus and factors of that nature contribute to why he's getting hit in the comic. But take the context of a comic book story out of the equation... and there's no logically reason the Flash would get tagged unless it's an AOE attack or something like Omega Beams that can follow him endlessly, or if someone uses subterfuge on him.

As far as Supes goes, he only (in terms of personality) takes hits to gauge an opponents power. He's not looking to get hit just for kicks.

Originally posted by Starscream M
well, if you just consider average as the most common showings (or mode rather than mean in statistics terms)

in statistics, they remove the extremes from both ends to get the best idea of the average

Point made though.

Originally posted by Existere
You can't remove story elements without removing character. Character's behavior is dictated by plot just as character's behavior dictates plot.

You need to preserve their behavior in order to debate those characters. Therefore, you can't toss out elements of their behavior on the basis that 'it was just for plot'. It's still how they behave. At the end of the day, everything in comics is PIS.

From my experience (which isn't huge), Herochat seemed to go downhill not necessarily because the debate style encouraged trolling, but simply because the mods themselves did.

There are two viewpoints here - either we debate things exactly as they happen in the comics, where the character's abilities are, for the lack of a better word, butchered in order to advance the story - or we take them with the abilities they are presented in comics, while still in character, and square them off against one another, unhindered by the plot-related limitations, distractions or lack of efficiency.