Originally posted by ExistereBecause as stated above I believe characters average showings are their average. We see enough of characters to get a good range on what is commonly bad for them and what is commonly extremely good for them.
How can you say what the character "on average" can do, if you're not going take low showings into the average?
What we normally see is their average.
Originally posted by NewjakEven though he doesn't in pretty much all his showings?
I feel that Flash wouldn't kill an opponent but he is going to be using his best speed.
Flash could almost always be going faster.
We should consider that he doesn't always use his best speed in order to debate with the actual character, and not our mutated version of said character.
Originally posted by PhilosophíaYeah because I feel we are trying to figure out what a character is capable of not what they would do in a given situation.
Exactly. The first part deals with speed, while the second part deals with the no PIS/full capacity rule. The distinction is quite clear between them.
I don't think it can be pointless but I think if you want to see what X character would do given a certain scenario you can make a thread detailing that.
But for the most part none of us want that. We want to show what our favorite characters can do and how they stack up with the best of their abilities.
Originally posted by Allankles
I think averages are already taken into consideration when discussing these characters. Low end feats are just that, we take what a character [b]successfully accomplishes on average, and where his limitations are as well.You can impose a limitation of speed on certain characters, but not the likes of the Flashes or Supes. It's hardly a"high end" feat when both guys blitz an opponent, unless said opponent was much higher than they were on the totem pole. [/B]
So which one do we accept... the way a character brawl 95% of the time or do we accept the 5% where that character actually use their speed to dodge "said" opponents?
Which one would be PIS/standard for the character... the 95% or the 5%? If a character fight in a certain fashion 95% of the time, why ignore that and create a character that basically doesn't exist and say that he is untouchable?
Doesnt make sense to me.
Originally posted by ExistereI don't think we should completely disregard them.
Even though he doesn't in pretty much all his showings?Flash could almost always be going faster.
We should consider that he doesn't always use his best speed in order to debate with the actual character, and not our mutated version of said character.
But to me a character fighting to the best of their ability should be fighting to the best of their ability.
So long as something isn't jut stupid over the top one time deal they and that they can show that they can go to that level when need be. I like to take that as their best as long as it doesn't completely defy all logic of the character..
Originally posted by carver9The 95% you're talking about isn't consitent either. He doesn't normally operate at mach 1, or 1/10 of lightspeed. He is all over the place, as the story dictates.
So which one do we accept... the way a character brawl 95% of the time or do we accept the 5% where that character actually use their speed to dodge "said" opponents?Which one would be PIS/standard for the character... the 95% or the 5%? If a character fight in a certain fashion 95% of the time, why ignore that and create a character that basically doesn't exist and say that he is untouchable?
Doesnt make sense to me.
So it's not so much 95% vs 5% as it is 3% vs 7% vs 15% vs 9% vs...
But we know what he can do. We know he can percieve opponents as statues. We know he doesn't need to somehow "activate" his speed at a certain level.
Should he logically get hit? No. Then what should we go by - the inconsistent, story-dictated approach, or the logical, abilities-based, while still in character, one?
Originally posted by ExistereNot exactly. A powerset is part of the character I want to argue what said character can do with their powers logically and with the feats they have demonstrated on panel.
In other words, you want to debate power sets, not characters.
If I want to talk about character development or character scenarios I would rather do that in a character discussion thread. Or make a singular thread dealing that idea.
Originally posted by Allankles
I don't think it's part of Flash's personality (logically looking at things) to get hit by slower guys. You can make the argument that lack of focus and factors of that nature contribute to why he's getting hit in the comic. But take the context of a comic book story out of the equation... and there's no logically reason the Flash would get tagged unless it's an AOE attack or something like Omega Beams that can follow him endlessly, or if someone uses subterfuge on him.As far as Supes goes, he only (in terms of personality) takes hits to gauge an opponents power. He's not looking to get hit just for kicks.
So you are basically saying that Supes, Gladiator, and Wonder Woman get knocked the f*** out just to test their opponents strength?
How many times does Supes have to fight Darkseid/Despero to know how strong they are so that he can "consistently" use his speed?
How many times does Gladiator have to fight Thor for him to know how strong he is so that he can consistently use his speed?
How many times does Wonder Woman have to fight Grundy for her to know his measure of strength so that she can "consistently use her speed?
You are making up excuses.
Originally posted by carver9You see this is where things get murky and I tend to have a different opinion then most.
So you are basically saying that Supes, Gladiator, and Wonder Woman get knocked the f*** out just to test their opponents strength?How many times does Supes have to fight Darkseid/Despero to know how strong they are so that he can "consistently" use his speed?
How many times does Gladiator have to fight Thor for him to know how strong he is so that he can consistently use his speed?
How many times does Wonder Woman have to fight Grundy for her to know his measure of strength so that she can "consistently use her speed?
You are making up excuses.
Most people naturally assume said characters like Supes and Glads will be able to turn up the dials on these guys when those guys themselves when need be can turn up the dials as well.
So to naturally assume that Sups speed even high end is so out side of another character's high end that speed = insta win which is not something I generally accept.
These guys are all muscle cars. Some just don't drive as hard as often as others.
Originally posted by carver9
So which one do we accept... the way a character brawl 95% of the time or do we accept the 5% where that character actually use their speed to dodge "said" opponents?Which one would be PIS/standard for the character... the 95% or the 5%? If a character fight in a certain fashion 95% of the time, why ignore that and create a character that basically doesn't exist and say that he is untouchable?
Doesnt make sense to me.
The whole concept of the blitz already takes CIS (the characters thinking, mentality) into the equation.
The Flash getting tagged is not the demesne of CIS. There's nothing in Wally's character (he's usually the Flash we're talking about) that explains why he'll let himself get hit. He has no great durability, so it doesn't serve him to get hit, at all, and he has the raw speed to avoid such an eventuality.
It doesn't mean he's untouchable, it simply means a lot of guys don't have to tools to tag him consistently.
With regards to Superman, again, character wise, he'll only take hits to gauge his opponent. I've also seen him (in the last 5 years of reading his titles) take hits because he was trying to talk down an opponent, or reach some kind of (eventually) peaceable resolution.
He brawls because it benefits him to do so (he's built for it), but in the same comics he'll use his speed when it is required. And I'm not just saying that, he uses his speed in situations where he needs to use it. He doesn't need speed in a lot of his fights, I can agree to that.
We will never come to an agreement here in terms of what's in character. There are some who want to argue for the flash at his best and some at how he is normally portrayed in comics. My answer to this is to make a thread specific to this. I personally like arguing what's in character so you won't see me saying Thor beats the Hulk due to bfr because he would likely never do so in a comic. I don't see the flash as putting down someone in a nanosecond either as 99 percent of the time this never occurs.
I get that it's in his powerset to just pour on the speed right after the start of the bell but this is contradictory to the majority of the flash's history and to me is powerset debating. Let's take his highest feats ignore his worst which takes the character out of it imo.
I myself agree with existere and always have tried to debate more in line with what's in character. Now that's not to say the flash or any of these guys don't ever use their best it's just not very likely as it happens in the minority of the time.
Now I am not suggesting we change the rules but I do think a thread with a vote would likely get the pulse of the kmc vs. forums to see if the majority does feel like tweaking the rules would help just for curiosity's sake. If it's overwhelming maybe we do take steps to do so or if it's not we just leave it alone as just a healthy discussion which it's been so far.
Originally posted by quanchi112The thing is, neither do I or the others think that Flash would put down somebody in the first nanosecond - that's where CIS comes in. He wouldn't go that fast on an opponent, knowing he could kill him, or cripple him. What we're discussing is him getting tagged - eventough the attacks shouldn't even be appear to be moving at all, from his relative point of view. And when he does get tagged, it's PIS.
We will never come to an agreement here in terms of what's in character. There are some who want to argue for the flash at his best and some at how he is normally portrayed in comics. My answer to this is to make a thread specific to this. I personally like arguing what's in character so you won't see me saying Thor beats the Hulk due to bfr because he would likely never do so in a comic. I don't see the flash as putting down someone in a nanosecond either as 99 percent of the time this never occurs.
The forum and the rules are quite clear on this matter.
Originally posted by quanchi112
We will never come to an agreement here in terms of what's in character. There are some who want to argue for the flash at his best and some at how he is normally portrayed in comics. My answer to this is to make a thread specific to this. I personally like arguing what's in character so you won't see me saying Thor beats the Hulk due to bfr because he would likely never do so in a comic. I don't see the flash as putting down someone in a nanosecond either as 99 percent of the time this never occurs.I get that it's in his powerset to just pour on the speed right after the start of the bell but this is contradictory to the majority of the flash's history and to me is powerset debating. Let's take his highest feats ignore his worst which takes the character out of it imo.
I myself agree with existere and always have tried to debate more in line with what's in character. Now that's not to say the flash or any of these guys don't ever use their best it's just not very likely as it happens in the minority of the time.
Now I am not suggesting we change the rules but I do think a thread with a vote would likely get the pulse of the kmc vs. forums to see if the majority does feel like tweaking the rules would help just for curiosity's sake. If it's overwhelming maybe we do take steps to do so or if it's not we just leave it alone as just a healthy discussion which it's been so far.
Agree 100%. It would actually make everything balanced if you ask me.
When you have people saying that Ironman can beat the entire xmen when in comics, something completely different happens... then its pretty obvious people are basing thing straight from powerset.
When you have people saying Hyperion would get a 10/10 against Hulk when in a comic he has been crushed by Hulk everytime they faced each other, its based completely off of powerset.
Originally posted by quanchi112
We will never come to an agreement here in terms of what's in character. There are some who want to argue for the flash at his best and some at how he is normally portrayed in comics. My answer to this is to make a thread specific to this. I personally like arguing what's in character so you won't see me saying Thor beats the Hulk due to bfr because he would likely never do so in a comic. I don't see the flash as putting down someone in a nanosecond either as 99 percent of the time this never occurs.
I get that, but something like speed is a purely physical quality, it is not as esoteric as Thor BFr'ing Hulk. Does a speedy boxer stop being speedy when he gets tagged?
Of course not, he can get tagged but he's still a speedy boxer and that will show up in the fight, for as long as the fight goes.
Originally posted by Philosophía
The thing is, neither do I or the others think that Flash would put down somebody in the first nanosecond - that's where CIS comes in. He wouldn't go that fast on an opponent, knowing he could kill him, or cripple him. What we're discussing is him getting tagged - eventough the attacks shouldn't even be appear to be moving at all, from his relative point of view. And when he does get tagged, it's PIS.The forum and the rules are quite clear on this matter.
So flash entire history of comics is pis?
So 50+ years of comics introducing him is PIS because again, 95% of the time, he is getting hit on a consistently basis?
Originally posted by PhilosophíaI realize the difference but him even attacking right out of the gate in this manner really contradicts his character's history. Now people are going to say the plot but like existere brought up we only have the characters because of the plot so it's a given. I've always thought when anyone starts discounting this or that then it's not really the comic character it's their version of what he or she is capable of.
The thing is, neither do I or the others think that Flash would put down somebody in the first nanosecond - that's where CIS comes in. He wouldn't go that fast on an opponent, knowing he could kill him, or cripple him. What we're discussing is him getting tagged - eventough the attacks shouldn't even be appear to be moving at all, from his relative point of view. And when he does get tagged, it's PIS.The forum and the rules are quite clear on this matter.
I think him getting tagged happens all the time so to treat the few times where he is going well past those levels and ignore his jla appearances as well during a fight is taking the character out of it and just focusing on his absolute best showings, only.
I get how the rules are I've just always tried to argue what happens more often than not in comics. To me just doing a powerset their absolute best feats only should be a cbr flash or cbr surfer.
That's just me. I think this really cuts right down the middle of kmc here with where people stand but smurph hit the nail on the head which is how I've always tried to debate but this will always be murky.
Now I try to do this fairly but say if Superman is taking on Thor I don't see Superman using speed nor do I see Thor ever attempting to godblast or soul suck him.
I don't expect the rules to change I do think a thread that touches upon this is ripe for discussion as this thread has been surprisingly civil and it's at 15 pages now. I can't recall a debate with as many possibilities to flame each other has been civil thus far.