Originally posted by -Pr-I agree with that assessment.
That would be a low showing to the extent that it would help determine his average. it would be counted.It wouldn't be a low showing that would be disregarded.
I guess an example of the latter type of low showing would be firelord losing to spiderman. those tend to be rare.
Originally posted by Starscream M
I agree with that assessment.I guess an example of the latter type of low showing would be firelord losing to spiderman. those tend to be rare.
exactly. surfer getting armbarred, superman's gas station moment; those are the low showings we discount.
the "having a bad day and i'm maybe not 100%" moments are the stuff we use for averages.
Originally posted by celeyhyga17See, this is a prime example of what I mentioned earlier: DC seems describe their speedsters' feats a -lot- better than Marvel tends to...
They don't ignore speed. They don't quantify as often as DC does. Marvel just addresses it differently.Take Gog and Thor for example. Both can deal with speedsters. DC just likes to quantify speed more often than not.
For example: It's safe to say Gog is not a speedster. He does not go around rapestomping everybody with "super speed". But when the situation calls for it, he can perceive and react to it. DC's infatuation with quantifying super speed even in a show of perception/reaction is quite evident here.
http://s272.photobucket.com/albums/jj172/galan007_pics/?action=view¤t=gog_powers2.jpg
http://s272.photobucket.com/albums/jj172/galan007_pics/?action=view¤t=gog_powers4.jpg
http://s272.photobucket.com/albums/jj172/galan007_pics/?action=view¤t=gog_powers5.jpg
For instance, in the above scans Rip Hunter steps in between nanoseconds in an effort to try and get the jump on Gog. He failed miserably. Therefore we know that any character who can move on a nanosecond by nanosecond basis, still isn't going to 'outspeed' Gog.
Cut and dry.
Originally posted by celeyhyga17...Then we have Marvel's descriptions. none
Thor likewise has dealt with speedsters and attacks against him that needs great reaction and perception. Marvel just shows it without having to quantify it all the time.
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Thor%20Stats/ThorSuperspeed21475.jpg"reflexes honed in a thousand deadly battles"
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Thor%20Stats/ThorSuperspeed18428.jpgThe statement by Thor alone "I have vanquished fleeter foes..." is a perfect example of Marvel letting readers know that to a being as powerful as Thor, super speed used against him is not a big advantage.
http://s980.photobucket.com/albums/ae289/ankur2292/?action=view¤t=TMA034020.jpg
http://s980.photobucket.com/albums/ae289/ankur2292/?action=view¤t=TMA034021.jpgIt is clear the two address speed in their own respective ways.
Now don't get me wrong, the above instances do prove that Thor has -some- degree of enhanced perception/reaction speed, but those scenes in particular are still quite ambiguous.
First scan: Thor catches someone who was moving "as swiftly as the wind." Woohoo.
Second scan: Thor reacts to a telepathic bolt that was "instantly" racing toward him. Obviously Thor's reaction speed isn't > instantaneous (for reasons I shouldn't have to explain), thus there is no way to tell how impressive of a feat that really was.
Final scans: Pietro -casually- avoids Thor's lightning, only to be knocked down by a hammer-strike to the ground..? If anything that was a low showing for QS, imo.
Originally posted by Galan007
See, this is a prime example of what I mentioned earlier: DC seems describe their speedsters' feats a -lot- better than Marvel tends to...For instance, in the above scans Rip Hunter steps in between nanoseconds in an effort to try and get the jump on Gog. He failed miserably. Therefore we know that any character who can move on a nanosecond by nanosecond basis, still isn't going to 'outspeed' Gog.
Cut and dry.
...Then we have Marvel's descriptions. none
Now don't get me wrong, the above instances do prove that Thor has -some- degree of enhanced perception/reaction speed, but those scenes in particular are still quite ambiguous.
First scan: Thor catches someone who was moving "as swiftly as the wind." Woohoo.
Second scan: Thor reacts to a telepathic bolt that was "instantly" racing toward him. Obviously Thor's reaction speed isn't > instantaneous (for reasons I shouldn't have to explain), thus there is no way to tell how impressive of a feat that really was.
Final scans: Pietro -casually- avoids Thor's lightning, only to be knocked down by a hammer-strike to the ground..? If anything that was a low showing for QS, imo.
I'm not disagreeing with Marvel's ambiguous style. It just gives them an out of not having to quantify super speed. The fact that Thor has been able to fight beings using super speed on panel like a Gladiator, clearly shows that he has a measure of "super reaction". We all know Gladiator is a Superman clone with identical abilities including "super speed".
Originally posted by Tha C-MasterExactly. Where speed feats in particular are concerned, it's all about the detail. If one feat is very descriptive, and the other feat is ambiguous, it's easy to decide which one to consider first. Imo, at least.
I was going to say that too. At least in Flash comics and the like they actually try to describe the speed (even if they scale it wrong), whereas Marvel just has them doing the faet, which leaves the argument of (well they've all done similar things)...Yea, but how fast was the actual feat?
Originally posted by Galan007
Exactly. Where speed feats in particular are concerned, it's all about the detail. If one feat is very descriptive, and the other feat is ambiguous, it's easy to decide which one to consider first. Imo, at least.
I see your point. In the end for example one cannot really say a Superman can "combo to KO" a Thor. Because you said it yourself, you really can't disprove against a Thor not being able to react to it due to Marvel's ambiguity to speed feats.
^That's just an example.
Originally posted by kgkg
Light Speed!
ROFL
^ You can certainly disprove it.
Since he is one of the main topics in this thread, say Flash started off a battle with an all-out blitz against Thor. We know that Flash -can- move on an attosecond by attosecond basis, because he -has- done so on panel. So unless Thor has a speed feat that is blatantly indicative of him being able to perceive/react to a blitz of that magnitude, then there is no reason to assume he can (we don't need to prove negatives on KMC.)
That, however, doesn't necessarily mean Thor would be incapable of soaking the damage dealt by said blitz -- it just means there's really nothing he could do (speed-wise) to initially counter it.
See what I mean? Where speed feats are concerned, the descriptive trump the ambiguous pretty much every time.
Originally posted by Galan007
^ You can certainly disprove it.Since he is one of the main topics in this thread, say Flash started off a battle with an all-out blitz against Thor. We know that Flash -can- move on an attosecond by attosecond basis, because he -has- done so on panel. So unless Thor has a speed feat that is blatantly indicative of him being able to perceive/react to a blitz of that magnitude, then there is no reason to assume he can (we don't need to prove negatives on KMC.)
That, however, doesn't necessarily mean Thor would be incapable of soaking the damage dealt by said blitz -- it just means there's really nothing he could do (speed-wise) to initially counter it.
See what I mean? Where speed feats are concerned, the descriptive trump the ambiguous pretty much every time.
but not Zoom, right? sneer
Originally posted by dmills
Celey and Galan. Thanks for actually progressing this topic in the right direction. Props to you both 👆
yeah yeah...
no thanks to u...
😈
Originally posted by Galan007
^ You can certainly disprove it.Since he is one of the main topics in this thread, say Flash started off a battle with an all-out blitz against Thor. We know that Flash -can- move on an attosecond by attosecond basis, because he -has- done so on panel. So unless Thor has a speed feat that is blatantly indicative of him being able to perceive/react to a blitz of that magnitude, then there is no reason to assume he can (we don't need to prove negatives on KMC.)
That, however, doesn't necessarily mean Thor would be incapable of soaking the damage dealt by said blitz -- it just means there's really nothing he could do (speed-wise) to initially counter it.
See what I mean? Where speed feats are concerned, the descriptive trump the ambiguous pretty much every time.
thats why i used Supes as an example.
I'm on the side of Flash being faster than Supes.
If I were a betting man, I would agree with your statement when it comes to that.
Now Nova on the other hand........
j/k
I'm not gonna get under ure skin on that one again...
muahahahhahahahaha...
blame it on dmills...
he brainwashed me when it comes to Nova.
As for this topic... Marvel has some of the best speedsters as well if you look at it... it depends on the character.
Example... this.
http://img68.imageshack.us/i/39597113mf8.jpg/
That doesn't include Gladiator having one of the best speed feats in comics. The guy kept up with Thor while he was amped to hyper speed levels and before this, he was working on a ship outside of the Hull at those same speeds.
Then we have him outright working on a computer for hours at hyper speed.
Again, depending on the character, the feats are their. I just don't think Thor has them even though he has shown that he does have super speed... we just don't know the quantity.
Originally posted by -Pr-What about him? sly
but not Zoom, right? sneer
Originally posted by celeyhyga17uhuh
yeah yeah...
no thanks to u...😈
thats why i used Supes as an example.
I'm on the side of Flash being faster than Supes.
If I were a betting man, I would agree with your statement when it comes to that.
Now Nova on the other hand........j/k
I'm not gonna get under ure skin on that one again...muahahahhahahahaha...
blame it on dmills...
he brainwashed me when it comes to Nova.
😛
Originally posted by carver9I don't think anyone is saying that there aren't some Marvel characters with good speed feats. However, DC simply puts a -lot- more emphasis on speedsters, and tends to describe the feats they preform -much- better than Marvel does with their speedsters (in general.)
As for this topic... Marvel has some of the best speedsters as well if you look at it... it depends on the character.Example... this.
http://img68.imageshack.us/i/39597113mf8.jpg/
That doesn't include Gladiator having one of the best speed feats in comics. The guy kept up with Thor while he was amped to hyper speed levels and before this, he was working on a ship outside of the Hull at those same speeds.
Then we have him outright working on a computer for hours at hyper speed.
Again, depending on the character, the feats are their. I just don't think Thor has them even though he has shown that he does have super speed... we just don't know the quantity.
Hence the reason why many are of the opinion that DC trumps Marvel in the speed department.
Originally posted by Galan007
What about him? slyuhuh
😛
I don't think anyone is saying that there aren't some Marvel characters with good speed feats. However, DC simply puts a -lot- more emphasis on speedsters, and tends to describe the feats they preform -much- better than Marvel does with their speedsters (in general.)
Hence the reason why many are of the opinion that DC trumps Marvel in the speed department.
But what I am trying to say is that "that" doesn't apply to all Marvel characters. I can pretty much provide scans from Glads that shows that he has the speed to keep up with a none CIS DC character just like I think dmills can provide scans proving that Nova could also do the same and these scans would be cut and dry.
I think you are basing this off of the main characters (from Marvel) rather than looking at the overall of the company.
A lot of arguments can be made from both sides imo and there are just as many speedsters. The only people that you "could" probably make a hard case for in regards to speed in DC is the flashes, Superman, and Wonder Woman... the rest are inconclusive. We have no tally on how fast Martian Manhunter, Orion, etc, etc, is because they just do not have the feats. Same with Captain Marvel. The only thing that we can guage from them is how they stack up to their peers and with that said, don't we also do the same on the Marvel group side?
^ I think Flash-related characters having sufficient speed to initially blitz pretty much anyone in Marvel was the main focus of this thread. That's why I haven't expanded my argument beyond them. /shrug
That said, you likely won't find many (if any) speedsters in Marvel who have -consistent- speed feats on par with the Flashes. Don't get me wrong, there are several Marvel characters who have the potential to beat members of the Flash family -- but they likely wouldn't be able to do so via superior speed.
That's all I'm saying. Just to be clear.
Originally posted by carver9
We have no tally on how fast Martian Manhunter, Orion, etc, etc, is because they just do not have the feats. Same with Captain Marvel. The only thing that we can guage from them is how they stack up to their peers and with that said, don't we also do the same on the Marvel group side?
Yeah, we do.
Originally posted by Galan007
^ I think Flash-related characters having sufficient speed to initially blitz pretty much anyone in Marvel was the main focus of this thread. That's why I haven't expanded my argument beyond them. /shrugThat said, you likely won't find many (if any) speedsters in Marvel who have -consistent- speed feats on par with the Flashes. Don't get me wrong, there are several Marvel characters who have the potential to beat members of the Flash family -- but they likely wouldn't be able to do so via superior speed.
That's all I'm saying. Just to be clear.
I agree 100%.
@Jake.
How fast is Martian Manhunters combat speed and also, how fast is Orions combat speed?
When you find that answer, can you please provide scans proving this?
