I decided that I will reply to this argument one last time. If you don't see where you are wrong, then something is wrong with you.
Originally posted by Borbarad
And when is Sidious faking weakness? When he raises his arms, proclaims Mace will die now and tries to electrocute him? I don't think so. When he realizes that he can't electocute him (which he was attempting to do)? Yes. That seems to be what Lucas was talking about.
After about five seconds of shooting lightning Palpatine starts to "become weak". Surely that is not the best Palpatine can do. How can one exert himself if he is not giving it his all? Palpatine obviously did not give it his all if he decides to quit in order for Anakin to intervene, right?
Now I am not saying it would be easy for Palpatine to overpower Windu's defenses with lightning, but he did not give it his all. All that weakness Palpatine was showing was all PRETEND according to Lucas. However, Windu struggling and his signs of strain were all very REAL.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Since Lucas comments the entire scene...
And Sidious was calling Anakin for help? Yeah. Let's come up with more biased interpretation of obscure sound effects in the movie. As it seems, Sidious isn't even aware of the fact that the Jedi are coming to arrest him, when Windu and his gang enter his office. But he informed Anakin before that he might need some help there? 🙄
I must be reading this wrong. How in the hell would Palpatine not know the jedi were coming for him, when Anakin tells him that he would inform the council? The novel even says Palpatine can feel the four jedi approaching, which is why he prepared for a fight when he put the lightsaber up his sleeve. He called out to Anakin because he wanted Anakin to believe the jedi were going to kill him, which is probably why, when Windu disarms him and only threatens to arrest him, Palpatine forces a situation to where Windu tries to kill him, by attacking Windu with lightning.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Lucas didn't need to do that, because there isn't any contradiction. The contradiction is just present between your personal, biased interpretation of Lucas words and the words of John Knoll. So, apparently, your personal interpretation of Lucas words is [b]wrong.[/B]
My interpretation of it is that Palpatine pretended to be weak and did not give it his all. Palpatine did not exert himself fully if he gave up before he had time to become weak. You can sit there and argue what Pope John Paul might have said. I am not worried about anyone elses opinion other than Lucas', rather Lucas decides to correct them or not.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Holy mother of god. Sidious proclaims "No. No. YOU WILL DIE!" when unleashing his first force lightning against Windu. That totally looks like faking weakness there. He could have kept playing helpless Sith Lord when Windu had the blade at his throat, rather then attempting to kill the Jedi and proclaiming to kill him. That, usually, doesn't make you appear as a victim, does it?
I did not say he was pretending to be weak at that moment. I said he was acting like he was the victim the minute Anakin walked in the office. As I said earlier, Palpatine wanted to force the situation to where Windu wanted him dead, so he attacked Windu with lightning. Before that, Windu only threatened to arrest him. Here is what DP posted in case you're not understanding me:
only after the FL did Mace decide to go for the kill (Lucas- Making of ROTS), and only then was Anakin forced to chose sides. Otherwise Mace would have taken Sidious alive, and Anakin was fine with that. Thats what he wanted "Master the Chancellor is extremely powerful, You'll need my help if your going to ARREST him" "No, he MUST STAND TRIAL.. I need him!" (Anakin- ROTS)
Originally posted by Borbarad
Or it proves the incompetence of these two Jedi.
And since Mace moved backwards when Sidious came flying, while Kit moved sidewars, he was standing in the way of Mace, which is even evident from the scene. Mace also has to dance around Kit later when Sidious engages the two. So thanks for paying attention to the scene you're attempting to argue.
First of all, I hope you're not judging this fight by your interpretation of what you seen onscreen, because if I use mine then I am a far greater swordsman then all five of these characters put together and I can take them all on at the same time with my superior speed and reflexes. According to the Star Wars Databank, Sidious "lashed out with BLINDING speed" and killed the three jedi. Under Windu's entry in the databank says: "Sidious quickly killed Tiin, Kolar and Fisto and forced Windu back into the main office chamber.", yes it also says Windu was forced back. And under Palpatine's entry: "Palpatine produced a lightsaber hidden in his sleeve and let the dark side of the Force flow through him. It granted him inhuman dexterity and speed, agility enough to quickly kill three Jedi Masters and force the mighty Mace Windu back.".
Originally posted by Borbarad
What the hell?
Since none of the Jedi moves during his initial onslaught, he had to focus on nobody. He cuts the first two down, who just stand there like statues, and than he has to move to Fisto and Windu, who have likewise not moved any futher after witnessing the initial leap of the Sith Lord. What we see is nothing but target practice. In the novel, he even distracts the Jedi before attacking with a concealed weapon.
Exactly. There was no fancy footwork used to confuse the jedi. He was simply too quick and had very good aim. There was no reason Windu could not have cut him down other than the fact that Palpatine proved too quick for him and slayed his two friends first. At this point Palpatine's speed was too much for Windu, which is why he forces Windu back. It was only after Mace submerges in vapaad that Windu becomes Palpatine's equal in speed and fury.
Originally posted by Borbarad
And numbers create a bigger advantage in fencing? Especially, when you have one opponent facing multiple enemies at close quarter combat? Yay. Thanks for demonstrating your lack of knowledge once again. What do you think how martial artists handle a superior number of opponents? They take as many opponents out of the fight by positioning and then utilize the attackers left as meat shields. An Aikido master is capable of handling about a dozen of trained fighters without much problem.
Just because you are trained how to defend yourself against multiple opponents does not necessarily give you a bigger advantage. Some women for instance are trained to defend against rapists. That does not mean she holds an advantage, which is why she is advised to get away if possible, and to only fight back as a last resort if she is forced to. Same way with a martial artist. A martial artist is usually more skilled and not as sloppy as random people on the streets. But when faced against an opponent of equal skill with three other martial artists who are trained to fight as a team, who would you think had the advantage?
Originally posted by Borbarad
He wanted to arrest him, in case you haven't noticed. He didn't expect any of that trouble and especially not assumed that Sidious would have the balls to fight them head on.
Yeah, he took extra jedi because he assumed Palpatine would come peacefully. He had no idea Palpatine would fight them head on. He and the other jedi ignited there sabers to try and scare Palpatine. He probably thought Palpatine would be scared that they were actually giving him the advantage by bringing more numbers, which would only make it harder to kill Palpatine in case he did decide to fight.
Why in the hell do you think Windu would not have thought Palpatine would throw himself at them (if that is what Windu thought)? Probably because it is harder to face multiple opponents than it is to face one, right? If fighting multiple opponents in close quarters gave Palpatine the advantage, then why wouldn't he fight them head on?
Originally posted by Borbarad
Wow. Straw man time again already? Did I say you should attack people that outnumber you? Sidious was forced to fight, but a trained fighter can capitalize on a superior number of his opponents. I know that, since I'm trained in martial arts. And most martial arts teach you how to do that.
Sidious was not forced to fight. He could have went quietly, called for reinforcement before they arrived there, or even left the place. Instead he sat there waiting on them to come, with a lightsaber readily prepared in his sleeve. When they got there Palpatine threw himself at them. Palpatine WANTED to fight.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Forced back?
He leaves the room based on his own free will. It was his decission to do so, and once they arrive at the office, Windu takes over. So? And maybe Mace wasn't focused because he had just witnissed three of his friends getting killed.
Yes forced back. Read above. And don't give me a reason why you THINK Windu may have been unfocused, or I will give you a reason why I think Palpatine was disarmed and why Windu was able to land a kick to his face.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Yes. You're telling me a lot. Most of it is bullshit, contradicting the available sources, the rest is bullshit ignoring the available sources. But please, tell me more. Holding you up to ridicule never gets boring.
Tell me which source I contradicted, please? You're the only one contradicting sources and giving me your personal interpretation of the scene, yet you're accusing me of doing it.
Originally posted by Borbarad
No. You should take Knoll's [b]and Lucas words into consideration and don't pick the stuff that fits your opinion, and interprete it in a way, that clearly doesn't fit Lucas intention. [/B]
Lucas said Palpatine was pretending to be weak, and that's how I took it.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I decided that I will reply to this argument one last time. If you don't see where you are wrong, then something is wrong with you.
No. I decided, that I will reply to the bullshit you're serving one last time, crushing your pathetic excuse for an interpretation.
After about five seconds of shooting lightning Palpatine starts to "become weak". Surely that is not the best Palpatine can do. How can one exert himself if he is not giving it his all? Palpatine obviously did not give it his all if he decides to quit in order for Anakin to intervene, right?
John Knoll says it was the best Sidious could do. Coupled with the verbalized intention of Sidious to kill Windu, this is what we have. It's nice that you still try to contradict it. Based on what exactly? On Lucas statement that he "added the part later, in which Palpatine fakes weakness" after the part in which Mace overpowers Sidious? So how exactly do you think it initially work, without the stuff later added by Luacs?
Fortunately, I know the answer to that question, as I have access to the Revenge of the Sith script. The, yet unaltered, scene looked like this:
"MACE WINDU: You are under arrest, My Lord.
PALPATINE: Anakin! I told you it would come to this. I was right. The Jedi are taking over.
MACE WlNDU: You old fool. The oppression of the Sith will never return. Your plot to regain control of the Republic is over...you have lost...
PALPATINE: No! No! You will die!
PALPATINE raises his hands, and lightning bolts shoot out. They are blocked by MACE's lightsaber. PALPATINE is pushed back against the window sill.
PALPATINE: He is a traitor, Anakin.
MACE WlNDU: He's the traitor. Stop him!
PALPATINE: Come to your senses, boy. The Jedi are in revolt. They will betray you, just as they betrayed me.
MACE WlNDU: Aarrrrggghhhhh...
PALPATINE: You are not one of them, Anakin. Don't let him kill me.
MACE WlNDU: Aarrrrggghhhhh...
PALPATINE: I am your pathway to power. I have the power to save the one you love. You must choose. You must stop him.
MACE WlNDU: Don't listen to him, Anakin.
PALPATINE: Help me! Don't let him kill me. I can't hold on any longer. Ahhhhhhh...ahhhhhhh...ahhhhhhh...
MACE pushes PALPATINE out to the edge of the ledge. As the Jedi moves closer, the bolts from Palpatine's hands begin to arch back on him. The Chancellor's face begins to twist and distort. His eyes become yellow as he struggles to intensify his powers.
PALPATINE: I can't...I give up. Help me. I am weak... I am too weak. Don't kill me. I give up. I'm dying. I can't hold on any longer.
MACE WlNDU: You Sith disease. I am going to end this once and for all.
ANAKIN: You can't kill him, Master. He must stand trial.
MACE WlNDU: He has too much control of the Senate and the Courts. He is too dangerous to be kept alive.
PALPATINE: I'm too weak. Don't kill me. Please.
ANAKIN: It is not the Jedi way...
MACE raises his sword to kill the CHANCELLOR.
ANAKIN: (continuing) He must live...
PALPATINE: Please don't, please don't...
ANAKIN: I need him...
PALPATINE: Please don't...
ANAKIN: NO!!!
Just as MACE is about to slash PALPATINE, ANAKIN steps in and cuts off the Jedi's hand holding the lightsaber."
Emphasis mine.
As you can see, in this version Sidious simply continues to shoot lightning at Mace, until the point where Anakin stops the Jedi. He is also incapable of overpowering the Jedi master with his force lightning, but is pushed back and about to get killed by Windu. So this must be the "original" overpowering Lucas was refering to. What he added was Sidious stopping his attack and proclaim to not have the energy to continue it in contrary to attempting to intensify the attack. Apparently, Sidious realized that he couldn't overpower Windu, and took the only other option left. This is confirmed by the script and by the commentary. So stop arguing against established facts.
Now I am not saying it would be easy for Palpatine to overpower Windu's defenses with lightning, but he did not give it his all. All that weakness Palpatine was showing was all PRETEND according to Lucas. However, Windu struggling and his signs of strain were all very REAL.
According to the script, Palpatine was not able to overcome Mace Windu's defense with force lightning in that particular situation. Script > your opinion. Lucas just added the where Sidious stops his lightning, because he was effectively just electrocuting himself, in order to fake weakness (where he could – in reality – continued the lightning).
My interpretation of it is that Palpatine pretended to be weak and did not give it his all. Palpatine did not exert himself fully if he gave up before he had time to become weak. You can sit there and argue what Pope John Paul might have said. I am not worried about anyone elses opinion other than Lucas', rather Lucas decides to correct them or not.
I'm afraid. The complete commentary is counted as G-Canon, including the statements of John Knoll, that you keep ignoring. In addition, Lucas own words in the script confirm my point of view. You're wrong. End of story.
I did not say he was pretending to be weak at that moment. I said he was acting like he was the victim the minute Anakin walked in the office. As I said earlier, Palpatine wanted to force the situation to where Windu wanted him dead, so he attacked Windu with lightning. Before that, Windu only threatened to arrest him. Here is what DP posted in case you're not understanding me:
And in the situation, Windu overpowered him and Sidious exerted himself to such an extend, that he had his face melt. Period. Sidious was not capable of killing Mace and because of that, he pulled out the playing weak card. He had no reason not to kill Mace, as he already had Anakin in his pocket and would have risked his entire plan. Just imagine, for a split second, Mace would simply have kept pushing forward when Sidious stopped the lightning. Boom. Dead Sith Lord.
Exactly. There was no fancy footwork used to confuse the jedi. He was simply too quick and had very good aim. There was no reason Windu could not have cut him down other than the fact that Palpatine proved too quick for him and slayed his two friends first. At this point Palpatine's speed was too much for Windu, which is why he forces Windu back. It was only after Mace submerges in vapaad that Windu becomes Palpatine's equal in speed and fury.
You implied that, without his goons to die first, Mace would probably have been killed by Sidious in the lightsaber fight. Now you're implying this once again. And it's demonstrateably false. Why Windu's companions don't react when the Sith Lord comes flying, the film shows us a close up of Mace moving backwards into a defensive stance. So he, unlike his comrades, was ready to defend himself and could have done so instantly.
Just because you are trained how to defend yourself against multiple opponents does not necessarily give you a bigger advantage. Some women for instance are trained to defend against rapists. That does not mean she holds an advantage, which is why she is advised to get away if possible, and to only fight back as a last resort if she is forced to. Same way with a martial artist. A martial artist is usually more skilled and not as sloppy as random people on the streets. But when faced against an opponent of equal skill with three other martial artists who are trained to fight as a team, who would you think had the advantage?
And there comes the argumentum ad judicium, falsely appealing to common sense. May I explain it once again?
If you're a single person getting attacked by multiple opponents, you have to just watch out for yourself while your opponents must take care about not hitting their mates and have to try to hit you. They would be limited in their choice of possible manouvers, while you would have the benefit of being able to position them in a way that they grand cover form other attacks or take hits for you. And the latter is what Sidious was doing. There never was a 4 on 1 situation, but two 2 on 1 situations, with Sidious solving the first by speed, while he outmanouvers Kit Fisto later, forcing him between himself and Mace first (hindering Mace).
Why in the hell do you think Windu would not have thought Palpatine would throw himself at them (if that is what Windu thought)? Probably because it is harder to face multiple opponents than it is to face one, right? If fighting multiple opponents in close quarters gave Palpatine the advantage, then why wouldn't he fight them head on?
Will you ever stop attempting to straw man me, instead of reading my arguments and answer to them? Palpatine's advantage lies in his manouverability in comparison to the Jedi, who had to watch out for their respective comrades. This is an advantage. Does that negate the advantage of superior numbers? Partitially yes, because we never see a 4 on 1 situation happen, did we? And Sidious "won" that engagement. You really think this fight would have went the same way if they would have met on a less confined space, with the possibility to avoid Sidious initial attack for example, instead of having to take it with the back to a wall?
Sidious was not forced to fight. He could have went quietly, called for reinforcement before they arrived there, or even left the place. Instead he sat there waiting on them to come, with a lightsaber readily prepared in his sleeve. When they got there Palpatine threw himself at them. Palpatine WANTED to fight.
When they got there, Sidious was asking them if Grievous was captured and – openly – seemed to assume that Mace has come just to inform him of the death of the General. Did Sidious put the lightsaber in his sleeve for that specific battle, or did he always carry one with him? Given that he has one up his sleeve when Yoda pays him a visit (whom he clearly didn't expect), the latter seems to be your case.
And he could have left? Apparently, Anakin makes the way from the temple to Sidious office in a few minutes. I don't think, that this was enough time to come up with an elaborated flight plan. You think it was? Even if Sidious would, naturally, have risked all of his plans failing, leaving Anakin on the planet and with the Jedi? I don't think so.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Tell me which source I contradicted, please? You're the only one contradicting sources and giving me your personal interpretation of the scene, yet you're accusing me of doing it.
Lmao.
You ignored John Knoll. You contradict Lucas own script. And you have no basis for your personal interpretation of the scene whatsoever, provided you're inable (by own admission) to exactly tell us what exact events in the scene Lucas was refering to. John Knoll and the RotS script make clear what he was refering to, and it contradicts your interpretation. End of story.
Lucas said Palpatine was pretending to be weak, and that's how I took it.
No. You didn't "take it like that". You took the statement and interpreted it as you saw it fit, directly ignoring John Knoll's commentary on the scene (equal to ignoring the context), in order to give props to your favourite character, indirectly assuming your personal interpretation is of higher value than that of Knoll and (since I added them) Lucas own words in the script. You were wrong. Accept it, move on or get bashed for being a fanboy.
Borbarad do you have any quotes apart the one in Dark Rendezvous which suggests Mace and Dooku are equals as of the Clone Wars?
Because your argument seems to be that since we know Dooku and Mace are equals, and Mace beat Sidious, that so would Dooku. As im not sure that the one quote from DR which says "perhaps" qualifies as proof that Dooku and Mace are equals.
Also would that DR quote not also be from the third narrative perspective you've been talking about i.e. Dooku's opinion??
Originally posted by Borbarad
Fortunately, I know the answer to that question, as I have access to the Revenge of the Sith script. The, yet unaltered, scene looked like this:
"MACE WINDU: You are under arrest, My Lord.
PALPATINE: Anakin! I told you it would come to this. I was right. The Jedi are taking over.
MACE WlNDU: You old fool. The oppression of the Sith will never return. Your plot to regain control of the Republic is over...you have lost...
PALPATINE: No! No! You will die!
PALPATINE raises his hands, and lightning bolts shoot out. They are blocked by MACE's lightsaber. PALPATINE is pushed back against the window sill.
PALPATINE: He is a traitor, Anakin.
MACE WlNDU: He's the traitor. Stop him!
PALPATINE: Come to your senses, boy. The Jedi are in revolt. They will betray you, just as they betrayed me.
MACE WlNDU: Aarrrrggghhhhh...
PALPATINE: You are not one of them, Anakin. Don't let him kill me.
MACE WlNDU: Aarrrrggghhhhh...
PALPATINE: I am your pathway to power. I have the power to save the one you love. You must choose. You must stop him.
MACE WlNDU: Don't listen to him, Anakin.
PALPATINE: Help me! Don't let him kill me. I can't hold on any longer. Ahhhhhhh...ahhhhhhh...ahhhhhhh...
[b]MACE pushes PALPATINE out to the edge of the ledge. As the Jedi moves closer, the bolts from Palpatine's hands begin to arch back on him. The Chancellor's face begins to twist and distort. His eyes become yellow as he struggles to intensify his powers.
PALPATINE: I can't...I give up. Help me. I am weak... I am too weak. Don't kill me. I give up. I'm dying. I can't hold on any longer.
MACE WlNDU: You Sith disease. I am going to end this once and for all.
ANAKIN: You can't kill him, Master. He must stand trial.
MACE WlNDU: He has too much control of the Senate and the Courts. He is too dangerous to be kept alive.
PALPATINE: I'm too weak. Don't kill me. Please.
ANAKIN: It is not the Jedi way...
MACE raises his sword to kill the CHANCELLOR.
ANAKIN: (continuing) He must live...
PALPATINE: Please don't, please don't...
ANAKIN: I need him...
PALPATINE: Please don't...
ANAKIN: NO!!!
Just as MACE is about to slash PALPATINE, ANAKIN steps in and cuts off the Jedi's hand holding the lightsaber."
[/B]
Nai, isn't this the one written by SuperShadow and then spread out across the net? Or do you have some kind of definite proof confirming that this is the actual script written by GL?
Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Every movie script on that website is legit, handed in by the writer? It's funny how they use the word "laser sword" in the script.
Actually this kind of confirms that it was written by Lucas.
🙄
Originally posted by Borbarad
Actually this kind of confirms that it was written by Lucas.🙄
So because the so-called script has "laser sword" in it, it is automatically written by him? I should remember this for my future fanfiction, I may pass it on as "written by GL".
Btw, why does he even do that? Does he call blasters, laser shooters?
Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Quote buttons are there for a reason Slash. Especially considering the fact that your post immediately followed mine.
It's pretty damn obvious I was replying to Nai.
Edit: Happy now? 😉
Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't see why you should doubt the script. Nai doesn't make a habit of lying.
I question everything, and everyone. If I were to use that script myself in future events, I want to make sure I'm not using bad sources.