Borbarad
Advocatus Diaboli
Originally posted by Galan007
Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you saying that Mace was subconsciously tapping Anakin's fear via his Shatterpoint ability? I was under the impression that utilizing Shatterpoint was something Mace had to specifically concentrate on - it didn't just happen without him knowing. That said, I find it odd that he had no idea what Palaptine was talking about when he said that the fear Mace felt wasn't his own... Especially when you consider that angling the battle in the way he did (based on the Shadow's own fear) is why Mace won.Are you saying that Anakin was responsible for that? How would Mace not know that he was utilizing Anakin's fear, and not Palpatine's? Just seems like a stretch, imo. Additionally, is it not possible that the master of the dark side was, you know, lying? I mean, he did lie about being powerless moments later (per GL)... Just saying.
He was, obviously, utilizing somebodies fear, and it was neither that of Sidious nor his own. I don't see many options left besides Anakin, since he was the only other person in the room. And how can we exactly understand the workings of a metaphysical power? Obviously, the "Shatterpoints" connected beings and even events (see the corresponding novel). Maybe Anakin feared that Sidious could die in the duel, resulting (according to Anakin's visions and thoughts) in the death of Padme. Maybe Mace just felt that fear based connection between the two individuals. I don't know.
The novel leaves no other option for Mace winning than the Shatterpoint ability, though. And that was the initial point.
Palaptine is more powerful than Dooku.
Ipsedixitism doesn't win arguments. I can do that too: "Dooku does crush Sidious in a lightsaber fight." Did I win now? 🙄
He uses that power when he duels (hence the blur-esque speed he displayed vs. Mace.) So while Dooku might be the better duelist from a technical standpoint, the power differential between himself and Palpatine is why, imo, he would lose an all-out battle.
And again, you keep arguing in circles. You presume that the power difference between the two is great enough to not only make up Dooku's advantage in lightsaber skill, but topple it. Where is the proof? We've never seen Dooku and Sidious testing their powers against eachother and we've also not seen them using their powers against other characters under compareable circumstances.
Anywho, I'll take this statement as you not having proof that Mace had fully embraced Vaapad, before battling Palpatine. There's no reason to think he had - that battle was Vaapad's "ultimate test", after all.
You mean, like you have no proof that it was? Great. At least I'm not commiting a logical fallacy here, which an argumentum ex silencio still is.
Why would we assume he never fully embraced Vaapad before fighting Palpatine? Perhaps because he had never battled such a powerful opponent for such an extended length of time?
What does that have to do with the question how he utilized his Vaapad before? You're assuming that he essentially held back during almost the entirety of the Clone Wars, which still doesn't make sense.
@Sidiousfanboy66
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
The way Lucas worded that does mean a lot.
But of course. Let us - according to the laws of this forum - ignore any kind of context. Lucas was doing a live commentary to his movie, so this is an ad-lib statement. I don't think that he thought about it in detail, especially not with the question in mind, how it could affect a possible discussion of SW fans regarding the outcome of the fight. So I don't think his wording "means a lot"...
Lucas said he always had the part in there where Mace overpowered Palpatine. And he did overpower him. Then Lucas goes on to mention that Palpatine "pretending to become weak and lose his powers" was something he decided to add in there later, so that changed a lot about the scene.
And when and why did Sidious "fake weakness"? After his initial attempt to kill Mace with force lightning fails. John Knoll tells us as much, and Lucas - sitting right next to him - doesn't see any reason to contradict the guy. So, obviously, Lucas essentially agreed with Sidious not being able to overpower Mace with force lightning in that situation.
The difference now is that Palpatine allowed Mace to overpower him. It's pretty obvious that Palpatine did not plan on killing Windu, and wanted Anakin to think he was at risk of being killed which is why before the fight he called out to Anakin through the force saying: "If the jedi destroy me, any chance of saving her will be lost". He always wanted Anakin to believe he was at risk of being killed; he wanted Anakin to intervene. This could be the reason he took out B team and then turned his attention to Windu. If they were as even as you say, then Windu should have been able to kill him while Palpatine's attention was on B team. Palpatine should have been very vulnerable to attack at that time. Instead he clearly holds the upperhand during this part of the duel, forcing Windu all the way back into his office.
Wow.
Did you even watch the movie?
1)
Why would Sidious have put his own life at risk, when he could simply have killed Mace? Hell. Why would he even have attempted to use his lightning, proclaiming that Mace has lost? He could have started to play the victim right after being disarmed. He didn't. What did change from his outright defiance, proclaiming that Mace has lost, to the point where he asked Anakin for help? He obviously realized that, on his own, he was unable to overcome Windu.
This is confirmed by the additional commentary on the DVD, where John Knoll - sitting right next to Lucas - proclaims that Sidious was pretty much just electrocuting himself and exerting himself in order to do so. Stop ignoring that.
2)
You accessment of the lightsaber fight is completely hilarious. You do realize, that Mace doesn't even get involved in the fight until the point where two of his fellow Jedi are already dead. He likewhise couldn't cut Sidious down while the Sith Lord was "dealing with the B team", because said B team was standing in the way in the guise of Kit Fisto.
Sidious simple benefited from the fact, that he had more targets to aim at, while Windu had to watch out for not hitting one of his comrades until the point, where all of them were dead, which - what a coincidence - is exactly the point in time when he starts to dominate Sidious. And nice that you're trying to making a case for Sidious throwing the lightsaber fight, too. That, besides of revealing that you have precisely no idea about swordfighting, also shows your bias in favor for Sidious. Not that your username alone isn't enough. The fanboy corner is over there, right next to Gideon.
There is also the arguement that Windu was unable to kill Palpatine while Palpatine's attention was on B team because he was not sunk all the way in vapaad yet. If that is the case, then there you have it, vapaad is what made them equals, and that is something Dooku does not have access to, nor does he have access to a B team. So stop comparing Dooku to Windu. Sounds like you're the one comparing apples to oranges. Stop using Windu's fight with Palpatine as a way to make Dooku Windu's equal, 'cause there not, especially when Mace has Vapaad.
Yeah. Please. Let us ignore the fact that Windu's "teammates" did limited Mace, because he had to watch out for them, and instantly dominated Sidious when they were gone. Just coincidence. Let's instead assume that Sidious, who didn't touch a lightsaber for about a decade, is in peak physical condition and equiped with his usual amount of lightsaber ability, especially compared to two frontline warriors in peak physical condition. That totally makes sense.
And of course it's me who compares Dooku to Windu, not almost every single source mentioning the two. Guess what. I didn't write them. I did neither come up with Yoda labeling Dooku the most powerful student of the temple, neither did I come up with all those other hints to the relative standing in skill between Dooku and Mace. So please blame the authors for the idea, that Dooku is equal or superior to Mace being present in nigh every Clone War novel. An idea, that you attempting to argue because of your personal interpretation of a fight between two other individuals. That, much like the rest of your fanboy rubbish, doesn't make sense at all.
Also, when someone exerts himself, they naturally become weak from using up everything they have in them, so pretending to be weak would pretty much be impossible.
Go argue with John Knoll and George Lucas. And I absolutely love how you seem to assume that Lucas carefully worded his statement in the commentary, where you seem to imply that John Knoll is just an idiot talking some bullshit about the movie right after that. Cherrypicking much? Come back when you've learned to make some argument not entirely based on your bias for your favourite character - if you're even capable of doing something like that.