Windu vs dooku

ok, i just reread the fight between windu and sidious twice, and watched the movie (just for fun lol) and i gotta say that galen really is spot on with his interpretation of the battle. i dont really see how it can be viewed differently tbh. vapaad may have equaled them out, but windu beat sidious by exploiting the weaknesses in sidious. not anakin.

and no ill will intended toward borb, but it seems like you really are arguing at this point for no real reason. your opinions just arent making sense anymore. you've been blinded by ego.

Originally posted by john allerdyce
you've been blinded by ego.

Originally posted by Galan007
Like I keep saying: The film's interpretation comes first, the novel's second. As long as they aren't contradicted by the film, events in the novel are canon. If an event in the novel IS contradicted by the film, then we used the film's version first. Easy?

The entirety of the fight is contradicted by the films version, so why would we cherrypick the metaphysical Vaapad stuff and the Shatterpoint use to be canon, even if their use, as described in the novel, does yield some results totally not shown and contradicted in the film. Because it serves our side of the argument? Brilliant. Either you accept any information not outright contradicted by the movies depiction of the events, or you accept none. If it's the former for you, the use of the Shatterpoint ability involving Anakin can still be canon, if it's the latter, you can toss anything said about the Shatterpoint ability and Vaapad in that source out of the window. Your choice.

Mace sensed that Anakin was Palpatine's largest Shatterpoint - but using Anakin's fear to his advantage is not what Mace intended to do.

Turning the Shadow's fear into a weapon allowed Mace to exploit to battlefield, subsequently allowing him to overpower Palpatine. Do I really need to post the passage explicitly stating this again? If Mace believed he was using Palpatine's fear (which he clearly did) then he obviously had NO intention of using Anakin's fear. Why would he?

No. Read the novel again.
Mace follows the largest shatterpoint and finds Anakin. He then capitalizes on something which he knows to be fear (confirmed by Sidious' statement), and which he apparently mistakes for the fear of the Sith Lord. Yet we know that Anakin was afraid of losing Sidious, because, to him, this was equal to losing the chance to save Padme. So it also was this fear linking the Chosen One to the Sith Lord.

But where was the reason for Sidious fear? And how the hell did Mace defeat Sidious by manouvering him to the slippery ground of the balcony outside, when there was no balcony present? Did Sidious sacrifice speed to get a better grip on the - clearly not slipperly because not being wet - floor next to the shattered window, or what?

Nice dodge. Show me any instance where Mace used a Shatterpoint, and/or tapped an opponent's energies, without knowing he was doing so. THAT was the question.

How can I dodge a straw man argument, huh? I've still not assumed that he was doing anything of that sort without knowing it, merely that he wasn't aware of the exact nature of the connection, which is not evident from the story. He just sees the connections and capitalizes on them. Where is your problem with this?

Because you are just that damn smart, right? Judging by how wrapped up in yourself you seem to be, I'd guess you are what? 17-20? I hope you get through this phase quick.

About correct. Or, maybe, it's because I studied this damn subjects called "linguistics" and "literature", allowing me to perform analysis on an entirely different level than the Average Joe.

I could, for example, talk about coherence of the text, which means we can have a nice discussion about the semantic-cognitive complex of meaning of the RotS novel text, educible in form of semantic net made of concepts and relations. This would be devided in local coherence, examining the coherence in single sentences and adjoining statements and global coherence, which constitutes the theme of text and allows analysis of the text function established in the form of semantic-pragmatic macrostructures. Of course, we'd need to have a specific look at the repeated reference to certain objects, persons and acts within the story and the referential movement of structured, textual development of information in different reference areas. And we may need to extend that on all other sources in question, that make reference to Vaapad or the Shatterpoint ability. You may want to read C.v. Stutterheim "Einige Prinzipien des Textaufbaus" and H. Vater "Referenz-Linguistik" before, though. I'm sure there is some English translation, in case you aren't fluent in German, like myself.

In short: Yes. You totally suck at this, and I don't. Maybe you should have commited some of your time to education, rather than smearing 34,000 posts into this forum. *shrug*

Anyway, you're implying that Mace can manipulate Shatterpoints, and/or channel an opponents energies with no conscious knowledge that he is doing so. I am simply asking for actual proof to support that opinion. Stop dodging.

Holy mother of god. I'm not implying this. In fact I've contradicted this mental construct of yours thrice now, which you keep ignoring to straw man me once again.

Since the Shatterpoints are described as lines connecting people / places / objects, Mace can just follow those lines. If the line consists of fear, he will just follow and - as a consequence - capitalize on that fear connecting two characters (e.g. Sidious and Anakin), without actively knowing whos fear he is capitalizing on. He just sees the connection, as described in the novel, so how would he know?

😂 So now that entire battle was hyperbole, because you disagree with it? This crap is getting thick.

Am I really arguing literature with somebody incapable of telling hyperbole from metaphor? 👆

As I'm sure a man of your extreme intelligence knows, there are several other sources (Jedi vs. Sith - Essential Guide to the Force, for one) of which explain Vaapad in the very same manner as the novel. It funnels an opponents dark sided energies into it's user, and redirects them back at their source. But I'm sure those other sources are hyperbolic as well, right?

Really? Let me check.

"To use Vaapad, a Jedi must give himself over to the thrill of battle, enjoying the fight and the satisfaction of winning. A Jedi must also accept and embrace the fury of his opponent. This transforms the Jedi into half of a superconducting loop, the other half being the power of darkness, which passes in and out of the Jedi without touching him." - Mace Windu, The Essential Guide through the Force, p. 113

Where does the darkness come from? From the opponent? So every opponent that Mace has fought is a darkside user? And thanks for providing the proof that Mace has experienced this feelings before his duel with Sidious. 👆

But where is anything said about negating the power of a dark side using opponent? I can't find anything like that. Apparently, this is once more your personal interpretation of the words, which doesn't make any sense in context of the other sources in which the ability in question is used.

Fact: Palpatine was the most powerful foe Mace ever battled for an extended length of time.

Oh. That's a fact? Did you forget this guy named Kar Vastor, perceived by Mace to wield more raw power than Yoda?

Fact: Mace's battle with Palpatine was Vaapad's "ultimate test".

Which doesn't mean that Mace has never used the style in a similar manner before.

Fact: Before battling Palpatine, Mace had never been noted to have embraced Vaapad to such an extreme degree.

He has experienced all of its effects before, noted in the TEGF quote. Since he was performing the fighting in automatic mode, he must have also done this rather often before. You were saying?

While your opinion may be that Mace was using Vaapad to that extent every single time he battled, I've yet to see proof of this. Post it, and I will happily concede. Unlike you, I cannot stand arguing for the sake of arguing.

Since Mace was performing his fighting movements without thinking, the grade of automatization proves that he has done so many times before. He has utilized the Shatterpoint ability to an even greater extend before. So where is your point? That auto-fencing Mace Windu, claiming himself not to think about his movements any longer, has never applied the same movements in that form before, which means he reached that level of automatization by - not using them?

That doesn't make any sense, but thanks for playing.

Originally posted by Borbarad
No. Read the novel again.
Mace follows the largest shatterpoint and finds Anakin. He then capitalizes on something which he knows to be fear (confirmed by Sidious' statement), and which he apparently mistakes for the fear of the Sith Lord. Yet we know that Anakin was afraid of losing Sidious, because, to him, this was equal to losing the chance to save Padme. So it also was this fear linking the Chosen One to the Sith Lord.

It's ridiculous to believe that Anakin was responsible for the above - especially when Mace went on to detail why Anakin was Palpatine's Shatterpoint just before the battle ended:

"That was when Mace finally understood. He had it. The key to final victory. Palpatine's shatterpoint. The absolute shatter-point of the Sith. The shatterpoint of the dark side itself. Mace thought, blankly astonished, Palpatine trusts Anakin Skywalker."

Palpatine's trust in Anakin is why he was Palpatine's largest Shatterpoint. Mace, however, obviously did not use that Shatterpoint. Palpatine ultimately used it against Mace.

Originally posted by Borbarad
that he wasn't aware of the exact nature of the connection, which is not evident from the story. He just sees the connections and capitalizes on them. Where is your problem with this?

"in the Force, the shadow had become a pulsar of fear. Easily, almost effortlessly, he turned the shadow's fear into a weapon."

Mace could sense Palpatine's fear, and he used it accordingly.

Originally posted by Borbarad
About correct. Or, maybe, it's because I studied this damn subjects called "linguistics" and "literature", allowing me to perform analysis on an entirely different level than the Average Joe.

I could, for example, talk about coherence of the text, which means we can have a nice discussion about the semantic-cognitive complex of meaning of the RotS novel text, educible in form of semantic net made of concepts and relations. This would be devided in local coherence, examining the coherence in single sentences and adjoining statements and global coherence, which constitutes the theme of text and allows analysis of the text function established in the form of semantic-pragmatic macrostructures. Of course, we'd need to have a specific look at the repeated reference to certain objects, persons and acts within the story and the referential movement of structured, textual development of information in different reference areas. And we may need to extend that on all other sources in question, that make reference to Vaapad or the Shatterpoint ability. You may want to read C.v. Stutterheim "Einige Prinzipien des Textaufbaus" and H. Vater "Referenz-Linguistik" before, though. I'm sure there is some English translation, in case you aren't fluent in German, like myself.

In short: Yes. You totally suck at this, and I don't. Maybe you should have commited some of your time to education, rather than smearing 34,000 posts into this forum. *shrug*

What is someone of your extreme intelligence doing here? Shouldn't you be out creating something for NASA? Building lasers? Writing a memoir?

Originally posted by Borbarad
Since the Shatterpoints are described as lines connecting people / places / objects, Mace can just follow those lines. If the line consists of fear, he will just follow and - as a consequence - capitalize on that fear connecting two characters (e.g. Sidious and Anakin), without actively knowing whos fear he is capitalizing on. He just sees the connection, as described in the novel, so how would he know?

"Feeling for its shatterpoint. [Mace] found a knot of fault lines in the shadow's future; he chose the largest fracture and followed it back to the here and thenow-And it led him, astonishingly, to a man standing frozen in the slashed-open doorway. Mace had no need to look; the presence in the Force was familiar, and was as uplifting as sunlight breaking through a thunderhead. The chosen one was here."

Mace was so familiar with Anakin that he didn't even have to visually see him to know he was there - Mace could simply feel his presence in the force.

...Yet somehow Mace began channeling Anakin's energies (energies he was obviously quite accustomed with) without knowing he was doing so? No way.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Where does the darkness come from? From the opponent? So every opponent that Mace has fought is a darkside user? And thanks for providing the proof that Mace has experienced this feelings before his duel with Sidious. 👆

Originally posted by Borbarad
But where is anything said about negating the power of a dark side using opponent? I can't find anything like that. Apparently, this is once more your personal interpretation of the words, which doesn't make any sense in context of the other sources in which the ability in question is used.

It negates their energies in the sense that they (the energies) are rendered useless in the battle. ie. Mace channels the darkness into himself, redirects it back at the source, and then the cycle starts again, and again, and again (ergo the superconducting loop.)

Originally posted by Borbarad
Oh. That's a fact? Did you forget this guy named Kar Vastor, perceived by Mace to wield more raw power than Yoda?

Originally posted by Borbarad
Which doesn't mean that Mace has never used the style in a similar manner before.

Phew. Great quotes. May I point out where they contradict the movie?

Originally posted by Galan007
"[Mace] could feel the end of this battle approaching, and so could the blur of Sith he faced; in the Force, the shadow had become a pulsar of fear. Easily, almost effortlessly, he turned the shadow's fear into a weapon: he angled the battle to bring them both out onto the window ledge. Out in the wind. Out with the lightning. Out on a rain-slicked ledge above a half-kilometer drop. Out where the shadow's fear made it hesitate. Out where the shadow's fear turned some of its Force-powered speed into a Force-powered grip on the slippery permacrete. Out where Mace could flick his blade in one precise arc and slash the shadow's lightsaber in half. One piece flipped back in through the cut-open window. The other tumbled from opening fingers, bounced on the ledge, and fell through the rain toward the distant alleys below. Now the shadow was only Palpatine: old and shrunken, thinning hair bleached white by time and care, face lined with exhaustion."

Emphasis mine. The way he supposely utilized Sidious fear: Not canon. So what did he do with Sidious supposed fear at all?

It's ridiculous to believe that Anakin was responsible for the above

Apparently, you still haven't got the point. I'm getting tired of tossing pearls before the swine. The entire fight is contradicted by the movie version. If I should make a logical analysis, I'd say that Mace did capitalize on his Shatterpoint ability, finding a gap in Sidious defense and exploited it to kick the lightsaber out of the Sith Lords hands.

The way it's described in the novel doesn't make any sense at all. You wanted to use the information present within for your argument, and I was trying to explain why cherrypicking doesn't make sense here. But to add a little more spice:

"This was Mace's particular gift: to see how people and situations fit together in the Force, to find the shear planes that can cause them to break in useful ways, and to intuit what sort of strike would best make the cut. Though he could not consistently determine the significance of the structures he perceived - the darkening cloud upon the Force that had risen with the rebirth of the Sith made that harder and harder with each passing day - the presence of shatterpoints was always clear." - Revenge of the Sith Novelization

Emphasis mine. While Mace was always aware of the existance of Shatterpoints, he wasn't able to clearly determine their nature. So, yes. He could utilize them without being able to figure out exactly what they represented. This makes it totally possible, that he was mistaking Anakin's fear for that of Sidious.

This is of special interest, because "Shatterpoint" is another source written by Stover. So he lets his character proclaim that the Shatterpoint ability is pretty inaccurate in terms of figuring out importance and nature of a connection, corresponding with the idea that Mace missjudged the situation. And you can't prove me wrong based on Windu's perception (which you tried) because they are the thing in question here. Duh.

facepalm Oh. My God. You are a LOT worse than I thought.

What is someone of your extreme intelligence doing here? Shouldn't you be out creating something for NASA? Building lasers? Writing a memoir?

Spending some freetime, like most people here. And yes. Liberal art students usually work in the field of physics. As it seems, you're even dumber than I thought.

Mace followed the Shatterpoint to it's origin. He was well aware that it was Anakin. Furthermore, he didn't even have to see Anakin to know it was him:

"Feeling for its shatterpoint. [Mace] found a knot of fault lines in the shadow's future; he chose the largest fracture and followed it back to the here and thenow-And it led him, astonishingly, to a man standing frozen in the slashed-open doorway. Mace had no need to look; the presence in the Force was familiar, and was as uplifting as sunlight breaking through a thunderhead. The chosen one was here."

Mace was so familiar with Anakin's energies that he didn't even have to visually see him to know that he was there - Mace could simply feel his presence in the force.

...Yet somehow Mace began channeling Anakin's energies (energies he was quite accustomed with) without knowing he was doing so? No way.

Given the above mentioned quotes about the inaccuracy of the Shatterpoint ability, we might add this one here:

"The tangled web of fault lines in the Force he had seen connecting Anakin to Obi-Wan and to Palpatine was no more; in their place was a single spider-knot that sang with power enough to crack the planet. Anakin Skywalker no longer had shatterpoints. He was a shatterpoint. The shatterpoint. Everything depended on him. Everything." - Revenge of the Sith novelization

Another instance in which Mace perceives some real huge Shatterpoint, but can't figure out the exact meaning of what he sees. As this is his view on Anakin, this also makes it rather plausible, that he couldn't figure out the nature of the connection between the Chosen One and the Sith Lord during the scene in question.

Experienced those feelings? Yes. Experienced them to the same degree as he did vs. Palpatine? No. Once again, Mace's battle with Palps was stated to be Vaapad's "ultimate test" for a reason.

🙄

Repeating arguments ad nauseam doesn't get you anywhere. He describes the feelings with exactly the same wording present in the RotS novel. But they were different? Again being the "ultimate test" says nothing about the intensity of Mace's use of Vaapad, but merely refers to the importance and intensity of the fight.

Good God. Vaapad doesn't literally take away a dark sider's power - I never implied that.

It negates their energies in the sense that they (the energies) are rendered useless in the battle. ie. Mace channels the darkness into himself, redirects it back at the source, and then the cycle starts again, and again, and again (ergo the superconducting loop.)

🙄

What is the source for the "dark powers". Answer. According to Mace Windu, it's the fury of the battle not the opponent himself, meaning your missinterpreting this quote once again.

Heh, do you remember how Mace beat Kar? Complete weaksauce.

Do you remember how he rained hits on Vastor so fast that his movments where invisible? Faster than in his duel with Sidious, as it seems.

Prove it, then. I'm not saying Mace wasn't using the abilities of Vaapad before fighting Palps - he just didn't use them to such an extreme degree... He simply never had a reason to. [/B]

Right.

"[...]but for that one day, we had again been Mace and Depa, Master and Padawan, pitting the lethal efficiency of Vaapad against the worst the galaxy could throw at us. We fought as we had so many times[...] - Mace Windu: Shatterpoint

Maybe the worst in the Galaxy weren't enough...

"Bolts splintered off in all directions; the erratic staccato of badly aimed shots took all his concentration and skill to intercept. Mace sank deeper and deeper into the Force, surrendering more and more of his conscious thought to the instinctive whirl of Vaapad, and even so some bolts slipped past him and whanged randomly around the inside of the bunker. He was too deep in Vaapad to make a plan, too deep even to think, but he was a Jedi Master: he didn't have to think. He knew. If he stayed in this doorway, the children would die." - Mace Windu: Shatterpoint

Well. Maybe that fits your high standards of evidence. 😂

"And with each stroke of her blade, he could feel himself slipping into the shadows. He had to. She was too strong, too fast, too everything. The only way he could survive was to give more of himself to Vaapad. To give all of himself." - Mace Windu: Shatterpoint

Maybe he can give more than "all of himself" somehow, but I seriously doubt it.

Wow you guys are really going at it. It's nice to see someone other than the usual suspects take on Nai. Though no offense to Galan--- you'll never win.

the definition of winning is posting last. Technically I am winning.

Last!

I don't agree with the logic that instances of direct contradictions makes an entire scene non-canon. It is the specific instances themselves that are non-canon, not the entire scene. Example being, the only part of the scene where Mace and Palpatine fight on the ledge that is a direct contradiction, is Mace cutting Palpatine's lightsaber in half and fell. I don't see how anything else in the bolded section would count as non-canon, though.

While I can't say I read every single post above, I'd point out that inconsistancies which are glaring result in other parts of evidence from the same source being taken with a grain of salt. If two sources of a fight exist and one's the original, another a stylistic retelling based on an earlier version, the former is naturally the greater source.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
I don't agree with the logic that instances of direct contradictions makes an entire scene non-canon. It is the specific instances themselves that are non-canon, not the entire scene. Example being, the only part of the scene where Mace and Palpatine fight on the ledge that is a direct contradiction, is Mace cutting Palpatine's lightsaber in half and fell. I don't see how anything else in the bolded section would count as non-canon, though.

for what it's worth, this has alway been the accepted mode of operation here, and will be moving forward except when we decide to stop and argue about it again...

I say we argue about TJ's lack of SHift.

TJ works from 9-5, don't b*tch about his shift.

Instead b*tch about him having to take the morning train.

yeah. i don't just shift for anyone... just your Mother.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
I don't agree with the logic that instances of direct contradictions makes an entire scene non-canon. It is the specific instances themselves that are non-canon, not the entire scene. Example being, the only part of the scene where Mace and Palpatine fight on the ledge that is a direct contradiction, is Mace cutting Palpatine's lightsaber in half and fell. I don't see how anything else in the bolded section would count as non-canon, though.

This is a problem of the aforementioned coherence, though.

If you have to remove parts of a text, because a specific part of it is "wrong", you technically have to remove all assertions in the text depending on the part which you removed. For the above mentioned example: Since there is no wet balcony, Sidious can't develop a fear of slipping. Since he doesn't develop that fear, he wouldn't divert power into maintaining a better grip on the (wet) floor. As he doesn't divert that power away, Mace can't capitalize on this, in order to disarm him.

So, obviously, we would need a different explanation for Mace disarming him, since the one offered by the novel doesn't work any longer. Not working like that would violate the principle of coherence.

Originally posted by Borbarad
This is a problem of the aforementioned coherence, though.

If you have to remove parts of a text, because a specific part of it is "wrong", you technically have to remove all assertions in the text depending on the part which you removed. For the above mentioned example: Since there is no wet balcony, Sidious can't develop a fear of slipping. Since he doesn't develop that fear, he wouldn't divert power into maintaining a better grip on the (wet) floor. As he doesn't divert that power away, Mace can't capitalize on this, in order to disarm him.

So, obviously, we would need a different explanation for Mace disarming him, since the one offered by the novel doesn't work any longer. Not working like that would violate the principle of coherence.

does the book say "Balcony?" I thought it said "ledge"
my novel is packed already.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
I was under the impression that the ledge they were referring to was the large window sill that Mace and Palps were fighting after the window was shattered. The same sill that Mace ended up getting blasted out of...

The novel has them moving out of the window, onto some ledge, which doesn't happen in the movie. You even have Sidious blade flying back through the window to the inside of the office, implying they were outside. This is also implied by the fact that they were instantly fighting on a completely wet ground and in the rain, after going there. Which is another thing that doesn't make sense watching the movie: There isn't any rain at all.

We're talking about ledges now...

I just reread the duel again, and the definition of "ledge" is a little strange here. It's a "window ledge" with a kilometer drop next to it, and that brings to mind the exact thing we see in the film. But then Anakin "leaped" on to the ledge. No such "leap" or "fall" or "jump" is made by Mace and Palpatine--their battle is simply described as "angled... to bring them both out on to the window ledge." It's also heavily implied that it's outside in the open air, instead of half-and-half like in the film.

Oh well. Movie prevails either way.

Originally posted by Borbarad

Anywho, I'm sure you'll still make some sort of egotistical remark (though it would be nice to see you put your ego to the side for a change) so I don't know why I bothered responding at all.