It's not neglecting so much as not mentioning because it's common sense, you enigmatic chipmunk. The focus of the discussers in this here thread is on the fight that starts after all of the droids have been destroyed, not while Obi-Wan and Mace are slaughtering the mechanical redshirts and Dooku is monologuing on top of that thingamabob.
Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
It's not neglecting so much as not mentioning because it's common sense, you enigmatic chipmunk. The focus of the discussers in this here thread is on the fight that starts after all of the droids have been destroyed, not while Obi-Wan and Mace are slaughtering the mechanical redshirts and Dooku is monologuing on top of that thingamabob.
Who's to say that they were destroyed before the duel concluded?
Originally posted by BorbaradNope. Shatterpoint had nothing to do with Mace winning. Like I mentioned above: the only Shatterpoint that was specifically mentioned during Mace/Palpatine's duel, was Anakin -- and Mace noticing him as Palpatine's 'largest' Shatterpoint is certainly not why/how he won.
The same is the case for Windu's Shatterpoint ability, which was the real deciding factor in fighting Sidious.
Originally posted by BorbaradMeh, Mace =(arguably >😉 Palpatine in an 'all-out' setting, thanks to Vaapad. Pretty sure that Palpatine would crush Dooku in the same type of setting.
So, as it seems, the two would still be equal in terms of blade work (since they've both increased their skill during the Clone Wars), yet Dooku has demonstrated the ability to survive on his own against Windu and Kenobi ("Star Wars: The Clone Wars: Republic Heroes"😉. He seems to be a superior tactician (in the duelling department) in comparison to Windu, and he's definitely better in encorporating force attacks into his fencing. Add the fact that he will probably attempt to use dirty tricks, and I think he would defeat Windu more often than not, as long as they are standing on equal ground.
Imo: Mace > Palpatine > Dooku. If Dooku were a light sided user of the force, however, I'd give him the slight nod vs. Mace.
Originally posted by Borbarad
[BHow exactly does that help Mace to win?
It doesn't. It merely prevents that he is getting affected by the Dark Side energies of his opponent and enables him to utilize his own dark feelings. [/B]
Borbarad I have one question and one observation.
#1 - How would Mace, without Vaapad of course, be affected by his opponents "dark side energies" (other than the obvious side effects of being cooked by Sith lightning and things of that nature)?
#2- I understand the concept of a superconductor, however the RotS novel states that Vaapad enables Mace to reflect Sidious' rage, hatred, speed, etc... back at him.
Originally posted by ares834
Why? Because Mace Windu won? That doesn't mean they aren't equal.Regardless, the novel makes it clear that they were equal.
No, the novel makes it clear that without shatterpoint they would battle perpetually - this has already been stated. I understand the issue with the shatterpoint being Anakin, and the novel not stating that Anakin lead to Sidious' loss. However, you cannot accept one implication from the novel and then leave the other one out just because it doesn't fit your philosophy or support your argument.
Yes what I just wrote sounds choppy, and for that I apologize. I'm at work and rushing my response.
Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
The novel (and the movie, the script, as well as GL's commentary) makes it clear that Mace overpowered Sidious. So, from the evidence at hand, Mace is not = to Sidious, he is > than Sidious.
Obi-Wan Kenobi also "overpowered" Anakin... But that doesn't mean Obi-Wan Kenobi > Anakin.
Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
No, the novel makes it clear that without shatterpoint they would battle perpetually - this has already been stated. I understand the issue with the shatterpoint being Anakin, and the novel not stating that Anakin lead to Sidious' loss. However, you cannot accept one implication from the novel and then leave the other one out just because it doesn't fit your philosophy or support your argument.
What am I leaving out?
Yes, there is the quote saying the contest would go on forever if Vaapad was Mace's only gift, but the Shatterpoint, as Galan pointed out, was completley ineffectial. Following that Mace won due to enviormental conditions.
Originally posted by ares834
Obi-Wan Kenobi also "overpowered" Anakin... But that doesn't mean Obi-Wan Kenobi > Anakin.
First, let's be clear; Obi-wan never 'overpowered' Anakin. He defeated him yes, but not by overpowering him. Now, with that being said, I would surmise that yes, between the two, in one-on-one combat with each other, Kenobi is Anakin's superior through resourcefulness, patience, clarity of mind, cunning, and experience.
JT
First, let's be clear; Obi-wan never 'overpowered' Anakin. He defeated him yes, but not by overpowering him. Now, with that being said, I would surmise that yes, between the two, in one-on-one combat with each other, Kenobi is Anakin's superior through resourcefulness, patience, clarity of mind, cunning, and experience.
Free Dictionary.com
o·ver·pow·er (vr-pour)
tr.v. o·ver·pow·ered, o·ver·pow·er·ing, o·ver·pow·ers
1. To overcome or vanquish by superior force; subdue.
2. To affect so strongly as to make helpless or ineffective; overwhelm.
3. To supply with excessive mechanical power.
I would say that, based on the first and second definition, Obi-Wan's defeat of Anakin qualifies. In fact, I'd say you'd be hard pressed not to find an example of a duel in Star Wars that doesn't meet that criteria.
[quote]Free Dictionary.com
o·ver·pow·er (vr-pour)
tr.v. o·ver·pow·ered, o·ver·pow·er·ing, o·ver·pow·ers
1. To overcome or vanquish by superior force; subdue.
2. To affect so strongly as to make helpless or ineffective; overwhelm.
3. To supply with excessive mechanical power.
I would say that, based on the first and second definition, Obi-Wan's defeat of Anakin qualifies. In fact, I'd say you'd be hard pressed not to find an example of a duel in Star Wars that doesn't meet that criteria.[/quote]
Not really. Obi-Wab hardly defeated Anakin through 'superior force' nor did he 'overwhelm' him. He counter-attacked at a moment in which Anakin, through his own recklessness, left himself open. To overwelm implies that you have to have some resistence to pverpower. Obi-Wan took advantage of a time in which Anakin was defenceless, and thus, he did not overpower him at all.
Semantics is kewl!