Doctor Octopus vs Omega Red

Started by StiltmanFTW9 pages

Re: Doctor Octopus vs Omega Red

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
It'd be awesome if somebody presented the relevant pages from X-Men #5 (1991/1992) here.

Step up somebody -- we can't do better than Wikipedia until that time:


----------------------------------------------------------------------
"Only a device known as the Carbonadium Synthesizer can stabilize his condition, as carbonadium is the only metal that can neutralize the "death factor," thereby stabilizing it within his body ..."
----------------------------------------------------------------------

We can do better, all that is needed is reading Wolverine: Origins, for example.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Classic Ock versus gas.

Image 2 of 2.

That's nice and all (glad you finally found it, btw), but Ock's pheromones aren't visible, so unless Octavius knows about it, there is nothing he can do.

Basic knowledge rule can be pretty confusing sometimes.

Originally posted by pym-ftw
Ock Solidly, Ock is much faster than OR

Rossovich reacted to and deflected bullets.

Doctor Octopus vs Omega Red

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
all that is needed is reading Wolverine: Origins

🙁

That's a big pre-requisite for someone that doesn't have the book, you know ...

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
We can do better ...

Well, the other problem is that the comics contradict one another.

Maybe you do have some comic that says carbonadium is bad for Red, and perhaps it is even Wolverine: Origins that says that.

If so, however, X-Men #5 disagrees with that completely.

Half the reason for all the action of the book, whether in then-present day or in flashback, is to capture that synthesizer to make carbonadium, allowing Red to be a viably functional super soldier. Which he won't be if he doesn't get that metal in his system thanks TO that synthesizer ... 'cause he'll be dead.
(Never fully thought about what this implied on previous readings -- Wolverine ran with some teams that REALLY played for keeps back in the day ... 😕 )

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Ock's pheromones aren't visible, so unless Octavius knows about it, there is nothing he can do.

Basic knowledge rule can be pretty confusing sometimes.

😛

Only the basic knowledge rules, huh?
Doctor Octopus not seeing the pheremones of Doctor Octopus is the problem here?

Alright.

Back to serious subject treatment mode:

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
[Omega Red's] pheromones aren't visible, so unless Octavius knows about it, there is nothing he can do.

Basic knowledge rules ...

This isn't a basic match-up.

It's a scenario match-up.

The original poster told us one key piece of information that made it so, obviously going on the supposition it would block Red's "death factor" as any sort of match-deciding consideration:

Originally posted by cdtm
Oct gets a gas mask.

Who wins?

Given THAT information, IF we are going to honor the spirit of the original poster's thread, we need to assume that Ock at the VERY least has knowledge that Red has this special feature and has indeed taken a precaution against it.

For why give Ock a gas mask if it is NOT to combat that?
Style points?

That wouldn't make any sense.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW

Rossovich reacted to and deflected bullets.

Any speed advantage Arkady might have at this low-level of that power will be negated by the sheer number of Ock's arms.

Carbonadium is radioactive, it was used to reduce Daken's and Wolverine's HF, too.

I'm only human, blue. It's funny that I typed "Ock's pheromones", though.

I noticed that - at least in this thread - you're using evidence from classic comics. Then you should know that even hazmat suits (that has gas masks included) didn't protect their users from Red's Death Factor. And even if that fails, Red could still just remove it from Octavius.

I recently posted scans of classic Spidey tearing off Ock's tentacles. All four of them. Stark has stated that OR possesses a Thing-level strength, so it shouldn't be hard for him to replicate that feat.

OR would win. Unless Doc is fully covered ( i don't think his latest incarnation covered his face he's gonna lose eventually. That being said, without the DF this might be a bit of a tossup as the latest (dying) competent version of Doc shown in Ends of the Earth is a beast with 8 tentacles.

Hazmat suits cover all the body and they still didn't help, Sixth 😛

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW

I'm only human, Blue. It's funny that I typed "Ock's pheromones", though.

Only half of me is serious when I post something like that.
The serious point, however, is that most people tend to read very fast, post just as fast, and not stop and consider they might be mistaken.

Obviously I don't think you are confused to the point of thinking Ock is a physical danger to himself, but I do think you've failed even now to think on WHY Red needs C-synth to begin with.

It might BE that Wolverine😮rigins (W.O.), or something else you read, contradicts what I read in X-Men #5.
But if W.O. does say what you think, it IS a direct contradiction to what I remember X-Men #5 says.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW

I noticed that - at least in this thread - you're using evidence from classic comics.

Most of what I know of Omega Red comes from his appearances in the 1990s. And Doctor Octopus, as far as I know, has only received upgrades since that time, more arms, more sophisticated control of them, body armor, etcetera.
Exception of course being, as pointed out earlier, that the adamantium set I thought was Ock's own was appropriated, not standard for him.
At any rate, if Ock's classic adamantium-less yesteryear form can handle a threat, I have little reason to think more modern and improved versions would fail the task.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
you should know that even hazmat suits (that has gas masks included) didn't protect their users from Red's Death Factor.

That has the ring of PIS and makes little, if any sense; no disrespect intended to you; you didn't write that scene.

Having said that, too, I would point out that Omega Red was brought back by Hand ninja clan ritual, not entirely on his own.
Which may or may not be significant considering I have ALSO seen the "Great Beast" that the Hand serves claim the lives of nearby people when the requirements of a particular ritual were not properly fulfilled.

Seemed nearly identical to what happened to Red's unintended victims.

Did that happen here? I don't know. The ritual I'm remembering where this happened, was, oddly enough, a resurrection performed on Doctor Octopus, who'd been killed by the Spider-Man villain Kaine.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
if that fails, Red could ... just remove [the gas mask] from Octavius.

This is a much better and more realistic objection.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Carbonadium is radioactive, it was used to reduce Daken's and Wolverine's HF, too.

Perhaps the carbonadium problem is a matter of scale?

For the mere fact of something being radioactive doesn't change the fact of it being beneficial or even required for proper health.

The human body itself, for instance, contains radioactive elements
(see link).

Key is that these are present in SMALL amounts in the body.

Perhaps the writer of X-Men #5 had that theory in mind and larger amounts of carbonadium are, indeed, poisonous to Red and others?

There's an ocean of difference between a substance doled out in terms of milligrams or even micrograms, and one supplied in terms of ounces and poundage.

http://www.vaughns-1-pagers.com/biology/human-periodic-elements.htm

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW

I recently posted scans of classic Spidey tearing off Ock's tentacles. All four of them. Stark has stated that OR possesses a Thing-level strength, so it shouldn't be hard for him to replicate that feat.

Except for one thing. Omega Red doesn't have Spider-man speed.

Ock's not going to be standing there like a statue.

Moreover, no one's going to tell me that a man put to heel by the physical offensive of Psylocke (again that X-Men #5 story arc),
is going to lightly endure the wall-smashing punches of Ock.

If Ock's not fighting BACK in your scenario, sure, Omega Red has a good chance to rip Ock's tentacles apart.

Without that, no, I don't see that happening.

-------------------------------------------------

Understand, I think Ock without protection against Death Factor loses horribly, fatally, and absolutely.

And any battle where Omega Red does NOT use Death Factor, or where environment negates it, or where Ock has some protection and precaution against it, has ample winning chances for Red as well.

Arkady's strong and vicious when he wants to be, a genuine threat to people.

Under the conditions of this particular thread, however, he's NOT taking the majority against Ock.

OR

Originally posted by Sixth_Winged
OR would win. Unless Doc is fully covered ( i don't think his latest incarnation covered his face he's gonna lose eventually. That being said, without the DF this might be a bit of a tossup as the latest (dying) competent version of Doc shown in Ends of the Earth is a beast with 8 tentacles.

That dying competent version of Ock might be even more of threat.

Stilt, you'll either catch this or you won't -- are you familiar with, say, Doctor Doom's mind transfer ability ...?

Ock probably learned the Ovoid Mind Transfer from Doom so he could troll Parker.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Ock probably learned the Ovoid Mind Transfer from Doom so he could troll Parker.
I agree to defeat someone like Parker it needs no less than someone of Doom's caliber.

This thread is useful for discussions on carbonadium and several other various obscure topics.

Can I assume most people have read Spider-Man #698 and Spider-Man #700 by now?

Originally posted by Parmaniac
Care to show that wind projection scan?

Windmill Tentacled Octavius.

(Doctor Octopus steals the "nullifier" device at a symposium.)

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14113303

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14113304

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14113306

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: Amazing Spider-Man #53, Volume 1
Writer: Stan Lee
Penciller: John Romita, Sr.
Date: October 1967
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://marvel.wikia.com/Amazing_Spider-Man_Vol_1_53

😂 Thanks 👆

I can't remember off the top of my head but doesn't Omega Red's carbonadium implants help arrest his death factor powers? Or is it the reverse?

Just out of curiosity why should the carbonadium **** Ock up? His body is not even in connection with this shit.

Originally posted by Parmaniac
Just out of curiosity why should the carbonadium **** Ock up? His body is not even in connection with this shit.

Because it's highly radio active?

Originally posted by ODG
I can't remember off the top of my head but doesn't Omega Red's carbonadium implants help arrest his death factor powers? Or is it the reverse?

Originally the former, it's unclear what effect it was having before he bought the farm.

The whole thing never really made much sense. The C-Synth was needed to make Carbonadium... but why did Omega Red need it? He apparently needed Carbonadium to "stabilize his death factor"... but is body was full of Carbonadium already and he had Carbonadium armor. How is that not mission accomplished?

People are coming up with some extreme responses here.

The "truth" is probably somewhere in the middle, not at the polar ends.

Alright, first things first:

1. People think carbonadium will do a number on Doc because it is radioactive. How radioactive is open to interpretation. Many are going with "extremely" radioactive because it is able to dampen mutant healing factors. Why they're concluding that, I don't know.
Adamantium is known to dampen mutant healing factors, too, yet I've never seen adamantium called "radioactive" anywhere.

2. Arkady's implants apparently have some role in poisoning his mind and body because they are implants gone wrong. Nobody wants to make this distinction for some reason.

3. Carbonadium DOES, indeed neutralize Omega Red's death factor. Even what I've seen concerning Wolverine Origins says as much, and X-Men #5-7 makes it clear as day. Omega Red's death factor is a double edged sword. Given time, it will kill him. He can apparently use it like a vampire to steal the life of others and sustain himself, but he doesn't really like to do that. His team in X-Men #5 goes after Wolverine because Wolverine's healing factor acts as a life-replenisher for Wolverine; they're hoping the effect can be duplicated in Omega Red.
For some reason, plot needs, I suppose, Wolvie's X-Factor can't be duplicated by anything they try, not even with samples of Wolverine's blood and tissue. So their only resolve is to get a device called the C-Synthesizer, a device that makes pure carbonadium metal. THAT can stabilize Red. Problem is that, again, Wolverine seems to be the key. Only HE knows where that device is located.

Was just wondering because has anybody discussed the possibility that Doc Ock's carbonadium armor would inhibit the death factor trump card here?

Originally posted by ODG
Was just wondering because has anybody discussed the possibility that Doc Ock's carbonadium armor would inhibit the death factor trump card here?

I did, more or less, a page or 2 ago. Unfortunately, I do not have X-Men #5-7 (1992) and therefore can't provide scans proving that Carbonadium, does, indeed, neutralize Red's Death Factor.

I'd be eternally grateful if you could supply a few scans of the dialogue from any of those books where such is mentioned.