Savage Opress vs. Darth Maul

Originally posted by RagingBoner
Well, I'm no expert, but I can't recall an instance in which Force users gain permanent powers from calling on rage in the midst of a duel. In fact, common sense dictates this isn't the case: If Ventress had become so powerful as to manhandle Kenobi and Anakin simultaneously, would she not be on par with the Count?

The count would beat both these two, you saw what he did to Ventress plus 2 nightsisters with his FL, while blinded. Whilst Ventress was clearly losing to the Anakin, Obi-Wan duo. As a last resort she went all out with the force. We dnt know how long she could have kept that up, but this was after Anakin and Obi already had oppurtunities to kill her, but were asking her to surrender. Yeah theres no way she was she'd beat them both, unlike the Count.

Originally posted by RagingBoner
I'd actually say it's the writers understanding the temporary power afforded by a Force-user who taps into his rage.

Imo, it seemed more like a "so THIS is what I can do" moment, rather than a simple rage-induced temporary boost in power /shrug. But, again, the only way to know for sure is to wait for season 4.

DP
Hey Il believe you as soon as I see Dooku force choke both Savage and Ventress together, or send them both flying back with the force simultaneously, or put down Obi-Wan and Anakin and 3 Destroyer droids and an army of battle driods all in one Force wave!

Count Dooku makes muppets out of the animate with hilarious and incomparable frequency, tiger. Tholme and Sora Bulq (the legendary lightsaber instructor, Vaapad practitioner, and master of every classical and experimental lightsaber form known to the archives) attack: the former has his eye gouged out and a ceiling dropped on his head, the latter is knocked senseless with a casual one-handed burst of lightning.

Spoiler:
And then converted.

Ventress, Naa'leth, Karis: despite shooting him in his sleep with a dart that stole his eyesight, these three were repeatedly tossed around and their assaults largely evaded until the man struck all three of them with a single barrage of lightning, pulled them into the air, and threw them out his goddamn window.

Ventress, Opress: your apparent inability to grasp what's going on here notwithstanding, Dooku was manhandling the duo before Opress lost his shit and tried [unsuccessfully] to murder everyone. Opress spent the majority of that fight on his knees leaking smoke and Ventress - as was demonstrated immediately afterward - would have been eviscerated on her own. Even together they only once put him in a position of urgent disadvantage, and then he just took them both on without a lightsaber.

Obi-Wan, Anakin: [apparently on the verge of exhaustion] he starts strangling Obi-Wan with his mind while sending Anakin sailing through the air with his foot* - without looking at him, mind you - then chucks Obi-Wan across the room before ripping a chunk of steel out of the wall and dropping it on him.

*

Spoiler:
Look ma, no hands!

Opress' sheer physicality and talent make him a warrior of considerable worth, but he is far too raw, inexperienced and brutish to pose a serious threat to the elite of his era. A momentary lapse into complacency aside, Maul is a fiercely cunning and extraordinarily skilled fighter who would likely be able to take advantage of the flaws that rendered Opress helpless against the Count and kill him.

Originally posted by Eminence
?

Count Dooku makes muppets out of the animate with hilarious and incomparable frequency, tiger. Tholme and Sora Bulq (the legendary lightsaber instructor, Vaapad practitioner, and master of every classical and experimental lightsaber form known to the archives) attack: the former has his eye gouged out and a ceiling dropped on his head, the latter is knocked senseless with a casual one-handed burst of lightning.

Spoiler:
And then converted.

😐

Ventress, Naa'leth, Karis: despite shooting him in his sleep with a dart that stole his eyesight, these three were repeatedly tossed around and their assaults largely evaded until the man struck all three of them with a single barrage of lightning, pulled them into the air, and threw them out his goddamn window.

Ventress, Opress: your apparent inability to grasp what's going on here notwithstanding, Dooku was manhandling the duo before Opress lost his shit and tried [unsuccessfully] to murder everyone. Opress spent the majority of that fight on his knees leaking smoke and Ventress - as was demonstrated immediately afterward - would have been eviscerated on her own. Even together they only once put him in a position of urgent disadvantage, and then he just took them both on without a lightsaber.

Obi-Wan, Anakin: [apparently on the verge of exhaustion] he starts strangling Obi-Wan with his mind while sending Anakin sailing through the air with his foot* - without looking at him, mind you - then chucks Obi-Wan across the room before ripping a chunk of steel out of the wall and dropping it on him.

*

Spoiler:
Look ma, no hands!

😐

Opress' sheer physicality and talent make him a warrior of considerable worth, but he is far too raw, inexperienced and brutish to pose a serious threat to the elite of his era. A momentary lapse into complacency aside, Maul is a fiercely cunning and extraordinarily skilled fighter who would likely be able to take advantage of the flaws that rendered Opress helpless against the Count and kill him.

^ Add to the fact that Opress's feats after the duel with Dooku were not inconsistent with his feats before the duel with Dooku. He held his own against Anakin and Obi-Wan on Toydaria and hurled their shuttle off a cliff with the Force. After the duel, he held his own against Anakin and Obi-Wan and flattened a group of droids. But the boost of power during the duel with Dooku was temporary.

Originally posted by Eminence
Even together they only once put him in a position of urgent disadvantage, and then he just took them both on without a lightsaber.

G007
That portion of the battle was pretty badass on Dooku's part. At that point in the duel they were both so insignificant that Dooku didn't even need a lightsaber to make them look like children.

That's the ancient Sith only, G. Dooku is, at best, a mildly skilled neophyte compared to their unholy glory.

Spoiler:
Wouldn't want anyone to jump your shit. 😉

RagingBoner
^ Add to the fact that Opress's feats after the duel with Dooku were not inconsistent with his feats before the duel with Dooku. He held his own against Anakin and Obi-Wan on Toydaria and hurled their shuttle off a cliff with the Force. After the duel, he held his own against Anakin and Obi-Wan and flattened a group of droids. But the boost of power during the duel with Dooku was temporary.

In any case I don't think it's relevant to single combat against Maul. Trained as he was, he can presumably acquit himself admirably faced with wild telekinesis (see: Mace Windu vs. Kar Vastor).

Speaking of which, I would only three-tenths mind a TWC adaptation of Shatterpoint; the show's certainly willing to go to some moderately neutered rendition of the violence and visual depravity depicted in the novel, and Windu's badassery has not seen much exploitation in this series, as far as I'm aware. The potential for ensuing dramatic fvckery is largely offset by the spectacle that would be the jungle brawl and a properly depicted Kar Vastor.

Galan007
That portion of the battle was pretty badass on Dooku's part. At that point in the duel they were both so insignificant that Dooku didn't even need a lightsaber to make them look like children.

Grievous, on the other hand...

Originally posted by RagingBoner
That's the ancient Sith only, G. Dooku is, at best, a mildly skilled neophyte compared to their unholy glory.

Spoiler:
Wouldn't want anyone to jump your shit. 😉

Originally posted by Eminence
Grievous, on the other hand...

wait, doesn't it say in shatterpoint that Depa Billaba and Mace are the only two masters of Vapaad? Since when did Sora Bulq master it?

Originally posted by truejedi
wait, doesn't it say in shatterpoint that Depa Billaba and Mace are the only two masters of Vapaad? Since when did Sora Bulq master it?

Windu says Vaapad mastered Bulq, but that's likely a reference to Bulq succumbing to the dark side rather than controlling it. He helped Windu create the form.

okay. i see. pretty cool. do we know how he dies? (from someone who doesn't read comics?)

never mind, i'm being lazy. i wookied him myself.

Originally posted by RagingBoner
Windu says Vaapad mastered Bulq, but that's likely a reference to Bulq succumbing to the dark side rather than controlling it. He helped Windu create the form.

It was created so that it's user could channel an opponents darkness into a 'weapon of the light'. Seems like a practitioner of the dark side tapping their own dark emotions whilst utilizing form VII, would beget Juyo, not Vaapad.

Originally posted by Galan007
I think succumbing to the dark side would hinder Vaapad's effectiveness, though.

It was created so that it's user could channel an opponentstheir own darkness into a 'weapon of the light'. Seems like a practitioner of the dark side tapping their own dark emotions whilst utilizing form VII, would beget Juyo, not Vaapad.

I think succumbing to the dark side would hinder Vaapad's effectiveness, though.

Why?

Vaapad is all about using the power of the darkness. It allows the usr to travel into the penumbra of the dark side without falling in. However, I see no reason why falling in would make it any less deadly.

Originally posted by Galan007
It was created so that it's user could channel an opponents darkness into a 'weapon of the light'. Seems like a practitioner of the dark side tapping their own dark emotions whilst utilizing form VII, would beget Juyo, not Vaapad.

Was it? In the RotS novel, Mace Windu says he created it so he could channel his own darkness, channeling the opponents seems to simply be a side effect.

G007, Z.
I think succumbing to the dark side would hinder Vaapad's effectiveness, though.

It was created so that it's user could channel an opponentstheir ownboth their darkness and that of their opponents into a 'weapon of the light'. Seems like a practitioner of the dark side tapping their own dark emotions whilst utilizing form VII, would beget Juyo, not Vaapad.

ROTS, hardback edition, pg. 330
Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways. He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inner most center--

And let it fountain out again.

He reflected the fury upon its source as a lightsaber redirects a blaster bolt.

^ Sorry, Zamp, I thought a Vaapad user channeling their own darkness into a weapon was obvious. I was moreso referring to what differentiated Vaapad from Juyo - ie. a user of Vaapad can deflect an opponent's darkness right back at them, "as a lightsaber redirects a blaster bolt". Without that 'effect', Juyo and Vaapad would essentially be the same thing, no?

G007
^ Sorry, I thought a Vaapad user channeling their own darkness into a weapon was obvious. I was moreso referring to what differentiated Vapad from Juyo - ie. a user of Vaapad can deflect an opponent's darkness right back at them, "as a lightsaber redirects a blaster bolt". Without that 'effect', Juyo and Vaapad would essentially be the same thing, no?

I'm not sure Juyo alone channels the user's darkness.

Originally posted by ares834
Was it? In the RotS novel, Mace Windu says he created it so he could channel his own darkness, channeling the opponents seems to simply be a side effect.

That's all I was trying to say. So if there was any miscommunication, I apologize.

Originally posted by RagingBoner
I'm not sure Juyo alone channels the user's darkness.

That's one of the reasons why any Jedi (sans Mace) who has attempted to master Juyo/Vaapad, ultimately fell to the dark side.

If I recall correctly from Kotor 2, Juyo does indeed 'draw on a very deep well of emotions that "cuts perilously close to the Sith intensity of focus on physical combat ability"' due to it being the most aggressive lightsaber form out there. Its all about killing shit, a very un-jedi like attitude.