Savage Opress vs. Darth Maul

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yes but he was force choking both of them simultaneously! And they culdnt break it!

Where is the point? Malak force stunned Revan, Carth and Bastilla simultaneously, which doesn't mean that he can do the job in a situation in which they would expect a force attack. And they couldn't break it in the five seconds he chokes them?

Ermm yeah after he sent them both flying back.. (this time they were expecting it).. But yeah then both of them had to put their powers together to blast him away.

They were expecting that he delivers a force push while choking them? I don't think so. And I don't know if they had to put their powers together to blast him away. I'd suggest that Dooku would be able to do that on his own under normal circumstances, provided he has tossed some pretty heavy stuff around in the source material.

Urm yeah not really buying any excuses for that. He sent both of them plus a whole army of battle droids to the floor with a Force Blast.

Since the battle droids don't have any resistance to that, I don't see the feat there. Ventress did the same to groups of stormtroopers, Mace to an army of battledroids, if you buy the action in the old CW cartoons.

Hey Ventress gave both those 2 a run for their money in enough open space. And she even managed to force choke them both when cornered, so im not buying those 2 just culdnt take Savage (whose clearly significantly more powerful than Ventress) due to a corridor.

Ventress is not capable of challenging Kenobi or Anakin on her own and walk out victorious, which pretty much each and every occassion she engages one of the dynamic duo shows. And I was merely suggesting, that they didn't have much of an option aside from controlled retreat, as the guy was as big as the corridor and spinning a double bladed lightsaber in front of him.

It just doesn't prove his superiority as a duellist / combatant in comparison to them. And I was talking about the real lightsaber part of that fight.

Ok thats a fair point. I guess theyve both owned this duo at one point.

Dooku has destroyed them in AotC, dominated the confrontation in RotS not to mention his various engagement through the Clone Wars. He is, simple put, a far more capable combatant than Savage.

He physically a lot more powerful, and his natural force tk has a lot more raw power to it as well. Whilst the Count has the skill, mastery and finesse in the Saber and Force department.

Erm, what?

Did you consider Dooku's TK showings through-out the mythos - outside of the stuff he does in the movies, which is already pretty impressive? I didn't see anything in that scene that Dooku couldn't have replicated.

Oh no Im not underestimating Maul. But if he had the same raw power as per TPM that Savage had during his boost in force power, then he obviously would have just sent Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan flying around all over the place.

The problem with this "boosts" is, that they are surges of rage that fade as fast as they come. Given that, utilizing such a "boost" Maul was almost capable of killing Sidious, I'd say that he might have been able to do the same under the same circumstances, yet, that kind of power would have faded away rather fast as well. And as we see Savage also just makes a rather close escape and is obviously injured / powered out after this. In a prolonged fight, he might still be overcome by each of the people he "owned" according to your view.

Originally posted by RagingBoner
That's the ancient Sith only, G. Dooku is, at best, a mildly skilled neophyte compared to their unholy glory.

Spoiler:
Wouldn't want anyone to jump your shit. 😉

Ragnos and Nihilus both make Dooku and Yoda look like infants just learning to roll on their side to avoid drowning in their own puke.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Ragnos and Nihilus both make Dooku and Yoda look like infants just learning to roll on their side to avoid drowning in their own puke.

Don't forget Simus. Imagine the hilarity of Dooku surviving as a talking head after being beheaded by Anakin in RotS. 😉

And then he could be on the Deathstar, giving Vader orders.

Originally posted by Eminence
?

Count Dooku makes muppets out of the animate with hilarious and incomparable frequency, tiger. Tholme and Sora Bulq (the legendary lightsaber instructor, Vaapad practitioner, and master of every classical and experimental lightsaber form known to the archives) attack: the former has his eye gouged out and a ceiling dropped on his head, the latter is knocked senseless with a casual one-handed burst of lightning.

Spoiler:
And then converted.

😐

I know. I have that comic. Dooku's awsome, you dnt need to convince me of that.

Originally posted by Eminence
Ventress, Naa'leth, Karis: despite shooting him in his sleep with a dart that stole his eyesight, these three were repeatedly tossed around and their assaults largely evaded until the man struck all three of them with a single barrage of lightning, pulled them into the air, and threw them out his goddamn window.

I know Dooku's awsome. Doesn't mean he's He-Man the most powerful man in the Universe, and never shall an opponent exist who will become more Powerful. Dooku sent 3 nightsisters flying off with his TK. I know, it was awsome. Well Savage sent 2 Jedi and 3 Destroyer Droids and a whole army of battle droids down in one force wave. You do the math of which feat was more impressive.

[i]Originally posted by Eminence
Ventress, Opress: your apparent inability to grasp what's going on here notwithstanding

My inability? Great. Can we try discussing Savage's power level without the need for petty insults please. And you'll have to add my inability to the inability of the general audience for whom this episode was made, to grasp "whats really going on" As clearly only a Star Wars fan whose studied all the EU can tell us this.

,

Originally posted by Eminence
Dooku was manhandling the duo before Opress lost his shit and tried [unsuccessfully] to murder everyone. Opress spent the majority of that fight on his knees leaking smoke and Ventress - as was demonstrated immediately afterward - would have been eviscerated on her own. Even together they only once put him in a position of urgent disadvantage, and then he just took them both on without a lightsaber.

I know what happened before his Power boost. Iv not once denied this. Although it was only Dooku's FL Savage could not handle. He actually disarmed Dooku in the close up fight kicking him to the floor.

But yeah his superior strength could not handle Dooku's FL. Thats clear.

Originally posted by Eminence
Obi-Wan, Anakin: [apparently on the verge of exhaustion] he starts strangling Obi-Wan with his mind while sending Anakin sailing through the air with his foot* - without looking at him, mind you - then chucks Obi-Wan across the room before ripping a chunk of steel out of the wall and dropping it on him.

That was certainly Uber Skilfull. But... and its a big BUT could he TK push both of them across the room at the same time?? No. When he force pushed Obi-wan the first time, why didn't he force push Anakin with the same push?? Instead of having Anakin continue to driving him backwards. At what point did even Obi-Wan and Anakin together drive Savage backwards?? Didn't happen.

Originally posted by Eminence
Opress' sheer physicality and talent make him a warrior of considerable worth, but he is far too raw, inexperienced and brutish to pose a serious threat to the elite of his era.

You sure about this?? You realise thats not the end.. Season 4 is coming.. You honestly believe Dooku and Sidious are not going to be in the least bit worried about this guy??

Originally posted by Galan007
To be fair, Savage's power didn't appear to decrease in the slightest afte

Imo, it seemed more like a "so THIS is what I can do" moment, rather than a simple rage-induced temporary boost in power /shrug. But, again, the only way to know for sure is to wait for season 4.

👆

This is what I think seems to be the situation as well.

Originally posted by Borbarad
And they couldn't break it in the five seconds he chokes them?

You dnt think 5 seconds is a lot for a force choke against 2 powerful opponents?

Originally posted by Borbarad
They were expecting that he delivers a force push while choking them? I don't think so.

What he should warn them the kind of force attack hes gna do next?? They both knew hes seriously powerful now and out to kill them both.

Originally posted by Borbarad
I don't think so. And I don't know if they had to put their powers together to blast him away. I'd suggest that Dooku would be able to do that on his own under normal circumstances, provided he has tossed some pretty heavy stuff around in the source material.

Heavy stuff is different to a guy whose just Force choked and tossed him around. So no im certainly not convinced of that. Either way, even their combined attack did not stop him.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Since the battle droids don't have any resistance to that, I don't see the feat there. Ventress did the same to groups of stormtroopers, Mace to an army of battledroids, if you buy the action in the old CW cartoons.

Except it wasnt just stormtroopers or battle droids. It was Anakin and Obi-Wan (which alone is work for Dooku) 3 Destroyer droids, (Iv so far not seen any Jedi capable of taking down 3 Destroyer droids with one force push), plus on top of that a whole load of battle droids.

No, as awsome as Dooku is Iv not seen anything to make me believe he could take down all that in on Force Wave. Neither him nor Mace Windu could do that. They would both struggle to just Force Push Obi-Wan and Anakin together to the floor.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Ventress is not capable of challenging Kenobi or Anakin on her own and walk out victorious, which pretty much each and every occassion she engages one of the dynamic duo shows.

Are you sure about this. Sidious never asked for Ventress to be assassinated before. This time he did, because he's felt how powerful she is growing. Still she's never best Anakin in Sabers and did not do so even in this episode. But she did however best Obi-Wan in this fight (even in the Saber fight). She kicked him to the floor disarming him while fending off Anakin.

The Force choke thing happened when she was cornered and disarmed and after Obi and Anakin already chose not to kill her. But it shows she is almost certainly better with the Force than either of these 2.

Originally posted by Borbarad
The problem with this "boosts" is, that they are surges of rage that fade as fast as they come.

Yeah but problem with this boost was, it didn't go. It lasted 3 fights, and we have no evidence to show it went.

Look I know Dooku's awsome and everything. He's powerful, skilled and smart.. Very smart. And with entire droid armies at his command, he was quite possibly the second most powerful guy in the galaxy.

But Savage is just a monster created by Nightsister Magic and then trained by the Sith. A monster whose gna provide a very interesting story during the Clone Wars season 4.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Except it wasnt just stormtroopers or battle droids. It was Anakin and Obi-Wan (which alone is work for Dooku) 3 Destroyer droids, (Iv so far not seen any Jedi capable of taking down 3 Destroyer droids with one force push), plus on top of that a whole load of battle droids.

No, as awsome as Dooku is Iv not seen anything to make me believe he could take down all that in on Force Wave. Neither him nor Mace Windu could do that. They would both struggle to just Force Push Obi-Wan and Anakin together to the floor.

But Savage is just a monster created by Nightsister Magic and then trained by the Sith. A monster whose gna provide a very interesting story during the Clone Wars season 4.

I'm going to make a point here: In a comic, you have no IDEA how easy combat was. You said "a casual one-hand burst of lightning" you have no idea how casual, how powerful, how sustained it was from a comic panel.

Originally posted by axel_jovan
But, weren’t Obi-Wan and Anakin busy fighting their way through battle droids?
Iirc they were not concentrating on Savage in that instance. I got the impression they were hit in tha back.

No. First they were fighting droids, but then Anakin points out to Obi-Wan the droids were attacking "that monster".. So they were well aware of the situation when that happened.

Originally posted by axel_jovan
I disagree here.
I think Windu (the guy who pwned an army of droids on his own) and Dooku (who is considered to be his equal) can do that too.
Their respective showings are very impressive. Not only that, I can say I find Windu's showing more impressive than Opress's.

Really? I dunno, Iv not even seen Dooku TK throw Obi-Wan and Anakin simultaneously, forget putting the 2 of them down plus 3 Destroyer droids. Remember Jedi sometimes have trouble against 1 Destroyer droid.

And I dnt wanna get into Mace's cw mini feats. But if we're going to talk about temporary and inconsistent power boosts then Mace on dantooine must be the most inconsistent and most temporary power boost we've seen in Star Wars. He could not do any such thing in AOTC when it was required of him.

i'm all for calling it canon since he did it...

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No. First they were fighting droids, but then Anakin points out to Obi-Wan the droids were attacking "that monster".. So they were well aware of the situation when that happened.

Really? I dunno, Iv not even seen Dooku TK throw Obi-Wan and Anakin simultaneously, forget putting the 2 of them down plus 3 Destroyer droids. Remember Jedi sometimes have trouble against 1 Destroyer droid.

Plus, as I already mentioned, he is supposedly on par with Mace…which brings me again to Mace’s impressive feat.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And I dnt wanna get into Mace's cw mini feats. But if we're going to talk about temporary and inconsistent power boosts then Mace on dantooine must be the most inconsistent and most temporary power boost we've seen in Star Wars. He could not do any such thing in AOTC when it was required of him.

Originally posted by truejedi
i'm all for calling it canon since he did it...

There's a shitload of inconsistencies when it comes to Force powers. They mysteriously scale down in magnitude when it's convenient to, or the Jedi suddenly forget they can grip objects beyond their reach. T-canon Mace pulling his Dragonball Z stunts and never doing them again? Big whoop.

Originally posted by axel_jovan

Yeah, really.
The point is that even if Dooku did not do it, it is not unreasonable to think that he can do it.

Ok. But so far as what we have seen I would not think he could do that last uber Savage Feat. If you think he can thats cool, but I would point out that the argument of "just because he did not do it, it is not unreasonable to think he can" could likewise apply to anyone.

Obi-Wan has not done it, but maybe he could?? Anakin has not done it, but maybe he could??

Originally posted by axel_jovan
Bearing in mind that the Count has displayed great power and mastery of the force elsewhere it seems to be the case.

I know but you'd have to point me to something on the level of Savage's knock 2 Jedi and 3 Destroyer droids down simultaneously in one Force wave.

Originally posted by axel_jovan
Plus, as I already mentioned, he is supposedly on par with Mace…which brings me again to Mace’s impressive feat.

^ I agree with this.
Mace did do it. Period.

Ok. Thats cool. But then I dnt want to hear any of this temporary force rage nonesense then. If Mace did what he did, then Savage did what he did. End of.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Ok. But so far as what we have seen I would not think he could do that last uber Savage Feat. If you think he can thats cool, but I would point out that the argument of "just because he did not do it, it is not unreasonable to think he can" could likewise apply to anyone.
Obi-Wan has not done it, but maybe he could?? Anakin has not done it, but maybe he could??

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Ok. Thats cool. But then I dnt want to hear any of this temporary force rage nonesense then. If Mace did what he did, then Savage did what he did. End of.

What I’m saying is this: I can see the case you are making for Opress. He is powerful indeed, and the feat is impressive no doubt.
I see Opress > Anakin/Kenobi force-wise.
Yet, I don’t see him beating Count in that department.
IMO Dooku is still > Savage force-wise, because of refinement of skill, experience, as well as power in general (FL was a problem for Opress, and it will likely still be).

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You dnt think 5 seconds is a lot for a force choke against 2 powerful opponents?

No, I don't.
You see. None of the opponents even tried to counter the force choke with the force, which kind of undermines your effort to base any kind of judgement of Savages force abilities on this. They get chocked and thrown before one of them reacts. We've seen people in the KotoR games force stunning clearly more powerful opponents. It's rather hard to defend against that abilities, when you aren't prepared for such an attack.

What he should warn them the kind of force attack hes gna do next?? They both knew hes seriously powerful now and out to kill them both.

And he utterly fails to kill either of them. They could have kept throwing him through the room for the next hours, but maybe they sensed the two Jedi coming and decided to depart, rather than stay there and deal with four (two Jedi, Savage, the respective other Dark Side user) opponents.

Heavy stuff is different to a guy whose just Force choked and tossed him around. So no im certainly not convinced of that. Either way, even their combined attack did not stop him.

The same guy that Dooku has tossed around and electrocuted before and after? Sorry. That doesn't make sense.

Except it wasnt just stormtroopers or battle droids. It was Anakin and Obi-Wan (which alone is work for Dooku) 3 Destroyer droids, (Iv so far not seen any Jedi capable of taking down 3 Destroyer droids with one force push), plus on top of that a whole load of battle droids.

Anakin and Obi-Wan are work for Dooku? I remember him force choking Kenobi while kicking Anakin into the next wall in RotS. He has casually owned Jedi Masters / other opponents with the force before. Where is your point? Dooku's TK showings totally eclipse that of Savage.

No, as awsome as Dooku is Iv not seen anything to make me believe he could take down all that in on Force Wave. Neither him nor Mace Windu could do that. They would both struggle to just Force Push Obi-Wan and Anakin together to the floor.

Watch the first 30 seconds of this:

YouTube video

Dooku casually slaps those Clone Troopers aside, slams the ship door shut and throws the metal construction on the ship.

And Mace?

YouTube video

The fun starts at around 3:10. And since you're so fond of force attacks, watch the seconds form 4:40 on, where Mace simply destroys seven regular battle droids, 2 super battle droids and 2 droidekas with a mere force push before he proceeds to crush that little tank coming at him. All of that without much effort, as it seems.

You were saying?

Are you sure about this. Sidious never asked for Ventress to be assassinated before. This time he did, because he's felt how powerful she is growing. Still she's never best Anakin in Sabers and did not do so even in this episode. But she did however best Obi-Wan in this fight (even in the Saber fight). She kicked him to the floor disarming him while fending off Anakin.

The Force choke thing happened when she was cornered and disarmed and after Obi and Anakin already chose not to kill her. But it shows she is almost certainly better with the Force than either of these 2.

Yeah. Meaning what?
We had bounty Hunters overpowering Jedi for a brief amount of time (e.g. Cad Bane VS Obi-Wan Kenobi and Quinlan Vos), but that doesn't mean a person is more powerful than the ones temporarily defeated. And I'm pretty certain that Ventress is not stronger in the force or better in sabers than either Anakin or Kenobi.

Yeah but problem with this boost was, it didn't go. It lasted 3 fights, and we have no evidence to show it went.

Where did it last three fights? He gets angry, gets tossed aside by Dooku and Ventress, gets angry again when he attacks Anakin and Kenobi and gets angry one last time before unleashing the force wave at the droids right before his escape. When we see him arriving at his home afterwards, he doesn't seem to be in his top shape any longer, or is he? In fact, he collapses right on the spot.

Look I know Dooku's awsome and everything. He's powerful, skilled and smart.. Very smart. And with entire droid armies at his command, he was quite possibly the second most powerful guy in the galaxy.

But Savage is just a monster created by Nightsister Magic and then trained by the Sith. A monster whose gna provide a very interesting story during the Clone Wars season 4.

See videos and other stuff above. Dooku and Mace aren't living legends among an order of legendary warriors without a reason. Those guys can kick some serious ass, if they are forced to.

Darth Maul would tear Oppress to pieces. Maul is a finely tuned killing machine with a saber. And don't forget that we don't know how powerful Maul really is because he rarely uses his force powers because (according to Lucas) Maul although a Sith has a high sense of honor and rather defeat you with a saber or by hand. In one of the last episodes that showed Maul and Oppress, Maul took Oppress down without even trying. Oppress may be physically stronger but as of now he is not stronger in the force or skill to truly compete with Maul or Dooku.

Originally posted by DjinnJoetunBaal
Darth Maul would tear Oppress to pieces.

In one of the last episodes that showed Maul and Oppress, Maul took Oppress down without even trying.

Doubt it. This thread is TPM Maul. It was CW Maul that stomped Opress. And even that was likely after studying his moves for a while first.

Originally posted by DjinnJoetunBaal
Oppress may be physically stronger but as of now he is not stronger in the force or skill to truly compete with Maul or Dooku.

Neither Opress or Maul are on Dooku's level. But I doubt he would laugh either of them off.