Originally posted by Digi
Prep-Man, I've never doubted that there will be good books in this series. I stated that flatly in my first disgruntled post. But I don't follow your logic that new origins for teams and often characters, as well as inserting entirely new teams and characters into the universe (as in, they've always been there) keeps anything the same.Yes, many characters are staying similar, even some elements of their pasts are staying the same. But it's not the same universe, not the same past. It's a reboot. And for those of us who enjoy the characters because of their history, there's no reason to become equally invested in new characters with new origins in a new universe with new surroundings.
srug
Go ahead and feel excited, no one's stopping you. But don't insult our intelligence by trying to pretend we're looking at a "soft" anything. This is, by any scale, much more all-encompassing than Crisis 1, which is widely considered to be THE historical reboot.
Too be fair 70% of the continuity of any given character doesn't mater as it stands now anyway. New writers come on, they make their mark (sometimes with something huge), and then the next writer will subsequently ignore the previous work and so on and so on until it is forgotten all together and never referenced again. Does anyone think Lex Luther is still supposed to be a clone of the original Lex? When was the last time that was referenced? Does it even matter? The origins and essence of the characters remain the same but other then that anything more then a few years old pretty much gets unofficially cycled out anyway.
What I thought this reboot would do is wipe the slate clean all together, so we would have a few years fresh before stupid and convoluted stories that don't matter started to pileup. My problem isn't that they are rebooting the characters, it's that the alleged intent is to start fresh... and yet they are bringing an undisclosed amount of character "baggage" along with them. Bullshit half measures that won't appeal to anyone. Go all in or don't bother. Who cares if you hurt Grant Morrison's feelings? All his work on Batman sucked anyway...
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
My problem isn't that they are rebooting the characters, it's that the intent is start fresh and yet they are bringing an undisclosed amount of character "baggage" along with them. Bullshit half measures that won't appeal to anyone. Go all in or don't bother, who cares if you hurt Grant Morrison's feelings? All his work on Batman sucked anyway...
Originally posted by King Kandy
I agree. They should go all the way. Otherwise they are just making things more confusing instead of simplifying them.
Yeah. This just seems like it has been sorely mismanaged. Batman and Green Lantern are arguably the two biggest franchises at DC (on the comic front anyway) and yet when all is said and done they will be among the least accessible titles after the relaunch because they aren't getting a complete reboot. Where is the sense in that?
NEW READER JUMP ON POINT! You didn't read before because there was too much confusing back story? Well we are ignoring it and starting fresh! Well ignoring some of it... some still count... but you won't know what still counts and what doesn't... At least it is a new number 1! Maybe larger numbers intimidate you! Jump on board now!
Please.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Too be fair 70% of the continuity of any given character doesn't mater as it stands now anyway. New writers come on, they make their mark (sometimes with something huge), and then the next writer will subsequently ignore the previous work and so on and so on until it is forgotten all together and never referenced again. Does anyone think Lex Luther is still supposed to be a clone of the original Lex? When was the last time that was referenced? Does it even matter? The origins and essence of the characters remain the same but other then that anything more then a few years old pretty much gets unofficially cycled out anyway.What I thought this reboot would do is wipe the slate clean all together, so we would have a few years fresh before stupid and convoluted stories that don't matter started to pileup. My problem isn't that they are rebooting the characters, it's that the alleged intent is to start fresh... and yet they are bringing an undisclosed amount of character "baggage" along with them. Bullshit half measures that won't appeal to anyone. Go all in or don't bother. Who cares if you hurt Grant Morrison's feelings? All his work on Batman sucked anyway...
If they did it THAT way, they would be losing a lot more readers.
Originally posted by Digi
Prep-Man, I've never doubted that there will be good books in this series. I stated that flatly in my first disgruntled post. But I don't follow your logic that new origins for teams and often characters, as well as inserting entirely new teams and characters into the universe (as in, they've always been there) keeps anything the same.Yes, many characters are staying similar, even some elements of their pasts are staying the same. But it's not the same universe, not the same past. It's a reboot. And for those of us who enjoy the characters because of their history, there's no reason to become equally invested in new characters with new origins in a new universe with new surroundings.
srug
Go ahead and feel excited, no one's stopping you. But don't insult our intelligence by trying to pretend we're looking at a "soft" anything. This is, by any scale, much more all-encompassing than Crisis 1, which is widely considered to be THE historical reboot.
I'm not insulting anyone. Pretty much EVERY creator that has had a interview, including DD said it was a SOFT reboot. DONT SHOOT THE MESSANGER!!
Why not call it a reboot?It's not a reboot. A reboot is typically a restart of the story or character that jettisons away everything that happened previously.
This is a new beginning which builds off the best of the past. For the stories launching as new #1s in September, we have carefully hand-selected the most powerful and pertinent moments in these characters' lives and stories to remain in the mythology and lore. And then we've asked the best creators in the industry to modernize, update and enhance the books with new and exciting tales. The result is that we retained the good stuff, and then make it better.
Originally posted by Prep-Man
If they did it THAT way, they would be losing a lot more readers.
I don't buy it. As it stands pretty much all the best Superman stories are essentially all reboots or oneoffs in a different continuity. Did that hurt Allstar Superman or Superman: Earth One? No. Like anyone is going to stop reading the main Superman title because all the times he fought Black Rock and Toyman don't matter? I just don't buy it, and pretty sure the sale figure of Amazing Spider-man proved all the people who allegedly "dropped" the book after BnD were "exaggerating" (read: lying). The original crisis didn't tank DC, all it did is provide a more accessible starting point for new readers, and a more fertile ground for creative and innovative story telling. Anyone who says they would stop reading Batman because Knights Fall or Heart of Hush, or War Games didn't happen any more is a liar or if they are telling the truth they are so far in the minority that they aren't even a statistic worth mentioning. We get a new Batman/Spider-man cartoon every few years, it is always a new "rebooted" continuity but the essence of the character is always remains the same and people always watch them. Comics are a niche market, and the 100 thousand people who read Batman every month are more or less going to read Batman every month regardless.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
I don't buy it. As it stands pretty much all the best Superman stories are essentially all reboots or oneoffs in a different continuity. Did that hurt Allstar Superman or Superman: Earth One? No. Like anyone is going to stop reading the main Superman title because all the times he fought Black Rock and Toyman don't matter? I just don't buy it, and pretty sure the sale figure of Amazing Spider-man proved all the people who allegedly "dropped" the book after BnD were "exaggerating" (read: lying). The original crisis didn't tank DC, all it did is provide a more accessible starting point for new readers, and a more fertile ground for creative and innovative story telling. Anyone who says they would stop reading Batman because Knights Fall or Heart of Hush, or War Games didn't happen any more is a liar or if they are telling the truth they are so far in the minority that they aren't even a statistic worth mentioning. We get a new Batman/Spider-man cartoon every few years, it is always a new "rebooted" continuity but the essence of the character is always remains the same and people always watch them. Comics are a niche market, and the 100 thousand people who read Batman every month are more or less going to read Batman every month regardless.
That's what I got from Desaad's post. Which I agree. Build your own mythology, but make the character fundementaly the same. Which doesn't bother me at all, but I don't like the fact that certain characters don't exist.
I heard a bunch of people jumped off Spider-Man, both from the internet and my store. Only a few people collected Spider-Man after that horrible story. So, DC would be losing a bunch of readers if they started over from scratch. But then again, they are doing that with some of the characters already. Hawkman and Superman for example and many people aren't happy about it.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Yeah. This just seems like it has been sorely mismanaged. Batman and Green Lantern are arguably the two biggest franchises at DC (on the comic front anyway) and yet when all is said and done they will be among the least accessible titles after the relaunch because they aren't getting a complete reboot. Where is the sense in that?NEW READER JUMP ON POINT! You didn't read before because there was too much confusing back story? Well we are ignoring it and starting fresh! Well ignoring some of it... some still count... but you won't know what still counts and what doesn't... At least it is a new number 1! Maybe larger numbers intimidate you! Jump on board now!
Please.
As for this, I believe Scott Snyder will be building his own mythology on Batman. He's going to be younger and won't focus too much on what happened in the past, yet still keep most of the continuity. I trust Scott, which is why I'm pumped for Swamp Thing.
Originally posted by Prep-Man
That's what I got from Desaad's post. Which I agree. Build your own mythology, but make the character fundementaly the same. Which doesn't bother me at all, but I don't like the fact that certain characters don't exist.I heard a bunch of people jumped off Spider-Man, both from the internet and my store. Only a few people collected Spider-Man after that horrible story. So, DC would be losing a bunch of readers if they started over from scratch. But then again, they are doing that with some of the characters already. Hawkman and Superman for example and many people aren't happy about it.
Spider-man is and has been constantly in the top 10 of monthly comic sales since BND.
I'm not mad they are rebooting Superman and Hawkman, I'm unhappy that the direction they are taking the characters. I'm not thrilled about anything I have read about the Superman direction, but there doesn't sound anything innately bad about the Hawkman reboot... other then it is in the hands of two completely incompetent people. Obviously as with anything when rebooting something it needs to be down right. See: Ultimate Spider-man.
And addressing your next point, I'm pretty sure it has been stated pretty matter of factly that Bruce won't be de-aging and at the very least all of Grant Morrison's work on Batman is still canon (work that went out of the way trying to make Pre Crisis Batman canon fyi).
Originally posted by Prep-Man
I just said most of Bruce's stuff will be in continuity, but that won't stop Snyder from telling good stories and building his own mythology.I was just speaking about my store I used to work at. Spidey was shedding a lot of readers. I think it went down to 6 from around 30-50 readers.
He is the best writer DC has in their stable so I have faith he will do good work.
That sounds extremely unlikely but I will take your word for it.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
He is the best writer DC has in their stable so I have faith he will do good work.That sounds extremely unlikely but I will take your word for it.
I was just commenting on what the owner told me, but I didn't take in other factors like economy and whatnot. Forgot about that.
Originally posted by King Kandy
How?
How is it bigger in terms of rehaul than Crisis 1? Pretty easily. Crisis 1 eliminated universes, but there's actually very few characters who died permanently from it. Earth-2 continuity wasn't even made largely null despite its nonexistence, because the characters that were absorbed into Earth 1 (for example: the JSA) retained their original histories (i.e. they weren't considered to have always been in Earth 1). And a lot of characters remained unchanged continuity-wise. If you look at it character by character, there's a lot that really didn't change...only a few were explicitly different after the Crisis (Cpt. Marvel, for instance), and Earth 1 was basically identical to before.
Originally posted by Prep-Man
I'm not insulting anyone. Pretty much EVERY creator that has had a interview, including DD said it was a SOFT reboot. DONT SHOOT THE MESSANGER!!
lol, fair enough. You believe all their hype though? The massive changes to some titles are blindingly obvious.
I say, "wait and see". ALL the titles could very well be terrible and thus blow up in their face, but I want to read (mainly the ones I listed above) the titles I'm interested before I make a judgement call. I'm crossing my fingers for the ones I'm really interested in. Grifter, Stormwatch, Blackhawks, Deathstroke, Franky, and Swamp Thing. If these are good and the others suck, I'll still be happy. ✅
Originally posted by Digi👆
Prep-Man, I've never doubted that there will be good books in this series. I stated that flatly in my first disgruntled post. But I don't follow your logic that new origins for teams and often characters, as well as inserting entirely new teams and characters into the universe (as in, they've always been there) keeps anything the same.Yes, many characters are staying similar, even some elements of their pasts are staying the same. But it's not the same universe, not the same past. It's a reboot. And for those of us who enjoy the characters because of their history, there's no reason to become equally invested in new characters with new origins in a new universe with new surroundings.
srug
Go ahead and feel excited, no one's stopping you. But don't insult our intelligence by trying to pretend we're looking at a "soft" anything. This is, by any scale, much more all-encompassing than Crisis 1, which is widely considered to be THE historical reboot.