Mortal Kombat 9 vs. Twilight Princess

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
Awwwww, you've relapsed.

I was really rootin' for you too.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
You think you can train yourself to be inhumanly strong? And no, he isn't a genetic freak. A reincarnated hero but not a freak. That doesn't make him not physically strong enough to toss people around like their pebbles.

Ahh, but evidence vs no evidence will always end in victory for those who give evidence in my book. And there isn't factual data to support Kratos in game is there. I don't recall any anyway. And what's it matter if they're ignorant? [b]Prove them wrong.

In a debate, no one really gives a shit what you believe. All that matters is what you can prove. And you haven't really proven anything.

Yes, we don't know hard facts. But that doesn't mean educated guesses are out of the picture. It's an assumption, just like the one you've given. But there really isn't a secret to having super strength, unless enhanced with an item, which isn't the case here.

Size doesn't matter. And I disagree on that point. In OoT, I distinctly remember seeing an awesome cutscene about the creation of Hyrule, which is a nice enough feat for the goddesses. But yeah, not that anything Zeus does really matters. He can't be used in any threads and at best can only be used to make Kratos look strong.

If they can prove the MK fighters are incapable of hurting the Zelda team, you have no argument. None at all. The only thing you can do is prove they can OR find a flaw/contradiction in their arguments. You've really not done either.

Yeah, you can. But I can say that Link is portrayed as super strong just like you can say he isn't. Until one of us brings evidence to prove our side, it doesn't really matter.

Who did that again? That is actually a legitimately stupid argument.

Quan, if they didn't care if they were right, why would they post evidence and do the math that they do? [/B]

I have posted evidence but if someone debates vs. superman it isn't the job of the supporters of superman to prove he can fly. Ignorance isn't an excuse people shouldn't debate games they are ignorant of.

Kratos is portrayed as superhumanly strong and unlike Link is an exception the guy can kill gods who can solo armies and have done so in the game. Boom.

I have shown comparisons and listed reasons why Link isn't stronger than the other loz characters in the game.

The item is the only thing that makes the feat possible so if Link meets someone who weighs more than he needs to put on the boots to make up the difference which takes away his mobility. Either way he loses here in either approach.

If someone is carrying a mountain on their back size does matter. To suggest the guy isn't strong when he outweighs a mountain is ridiculous. We can't determine how strong Kratos is but his portrayal is consistent with he's the exception in the game not the norm like Link is.

They don't know enough about the mk fighters to even make an argument and boomerangs, plants, etc. all can hurt Link. To suggest missiles, lightning blasts, sledgehammers can't hurt Link is saying forget everything about the zelda game itself. Only a fool would claim mk fighters can take on modern day earth yet be unable to hurt Link. I don't even know how anyone could with a straight face utter something to silly and so ignorant. No offense but it's like talking to someone whose a child.

The math they do doesn't prove anything which backs up my point. They create a a guesstimation without any real evidence just to win a debate.

Link is stronger than a human but in his game he relies on skill because he isn't stronger than his peers. He's strong enough to get the job done as most heroes tend to be and this game hasn't made him the genetic exception just the hero of destiny.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
You mean the guy who can [b]fly? Telling physics to stfu is easy when anchoring yourself the way he does is part of your powerset. Bad example is bad. If you are light, and something heavy in motion hits you, you're going to ****ing move. 😐 Physics says so.[/B]

You have a point about spidey's anchoring powers but he's not the only example and you know it. Plenty of super strong guys that weigh less than 200 pounds out there. Amazons, Superboy before his flight et al that wouldn't show issues with the weight of the ball despite being very light themselves.

You're dodging the gist of the argument which is that super strength does allow fictional characters to negate weight.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
For one, Ganon and Ganondorf use the exact same power source. They both use the ToP, why would one be stronger? For two, Ganon shows he's actively stronger in OoT than Link with the Goldden gauntlets. That is one hell of a good strength feat.

Burning answered this post quite adequately. To add to what he said there are plenty of beings in fiction who change their forms to suit the situation i.e. their transformations or forms have different properties.

In his Ganon form Ganondorf is a pure brute, no magic, no sorcery just straight physical strength. Other examples of characters that change forms to access different properties include, Dracula, Sauron, War (from Darksiders) etc

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
What makes me think he wouldn't be destroyed by MK fighters? The fact that Ganon has neat feats like merging an entire country with another dimension on a whim, playing tennis with lightning, tanking a castle/busting explosion, busting an island, turning off the sun, ect.

Along with powers like TK powerful enough to casually levitate his castle, the ability to become intangible, teleport, clairevoyance/claireaudience, the ability to create monsters and ressurect the dead, so on and so forth.

Shit, you claim all it takes to hurt Ganon is magic and magical weapons, in TP he's hit with a magical weapon so hard, [b]it blows up the castle around him. To use a tried and true example, imagine being kicked in the nuts so hard your house explodes, Ganon wasn't hurt. At all. [/B]

Merging kingdoms is less than merging entire dimensions. Playing tennis with lightning? When? I hope you're not talking OOT because that was a magical bolt, not lightning.

That was off screen we never see him actually using TK to lift it. That's down to magic, it's pretty inconclusive when we don't actually see Ganondorf do it.

Teleportation, combat effective teleportation is what plenty of MK characters have, a few can also be intangible for brief periods. What does clairvoyance do for Ganon? MK characters can also create monsters, in fact they do it all the time in Outworld.

Yet he's hurt by magica arrows a sword, magic beams from Zelda, magic beams can also bind him. He can also be hurt by other swords besides the master sword.

All in all there's absolutely no way he'd fight an elite MKer without facing mortal peril himself. MK characters can also transform into physically more imposing forms like Ganondorf can.

Pretty much every sorcerer and mystical warrior worth their salt in MK can match him. Some like Raiden surpass him imo.

I've posted this before, if you want to get into creator's intention.

Originally posted by The Scenario
YouTube video

Look, let's just get this portrayal nonsense out of the way. Skip to around 8:55 - 9:50 in this video. For a basic summary, Miyamoto himself acknowledges that no human could push a giant stone block, calling it absurd, but allowing it because it's fun and gives a sense of experience. They even go so far as to say it isn't comedic when Link does these things.

Thus it seems Link is intended to be superhuman in serious way, because it's fun and makes the player feel strong when Link does something that requires super strength.

That is called Word of God, and you cannot argue with it.

Plus, just for Quanchi's lack of sound on his computer.

http://www.1up.com/do/blogEntry?bId=9034836

Miyamoto: Yeah, that’s right. As we’re making Zelda I continue to discuss with Aonuma-san and the team as to why and what makes Zelda so much fun. We talk a lot about what is that flavor of Zelda. I think there’s a sense of realism in being in the land of Hyrule. But I think that realism comes from the characters and the details of the scenes. You need a sense that you are actually doing these actions, that you are in that world. So in that sense pushing a huge block is actually kind of absurd. I don’t think anyone wants to see a young man pushing giant blocks with graphics that are better than that of the GameCube.

Iwata: There is no way someone could push an object bigger than them that’s most likely made out of stone.

Miyamoto: And you know, it’s not like it’s comedic, he has a serious look on his face of what he is doing. But that’s fun when you actually play it. It’s because there’s some sense of experience. You feel it.

This quite clearly shows that Link is intended to be superhuman, no? Now, then.

Originally posted by quanchi112
He does still have this problem and can't access different worlds at will just teleport around the same vicinity. Just because Raiden can teleport that doesn't mean he can easily teleport to earth and travel from outworld at will.

Through twilight portals. The kind that the Shadow Basts use to get into Hyrule from the Twilight Realm. It's not teleportation, Ganon actually moves around by making portals to another dimension.

Dorf needed him to get back meaning he can't do so under his own powers. That's the whole point. Once he was back in hyrule of course he didn't need zant since he was already back.

No, the point was that Ganondorf was using Zant to regain his powers, and once he had fed on the Twili's hate he had enough strength to not need Zant. If you forgot, Zant is perfectly capable of moving back and forth between Hyrule, and it is stated repeatedly by Zant and others that all of Zant's power came from Ganondorf.

The master sword had nothing to do with Zant's actions of moving his neck when he was done with dorf. Nothing. The triforce of power can fail when in contact with a powerful force such as the master sword but guess what it's not the only source of power in video games it's just the one needed in his own realm considering he has the triforce of power it kinda evens things out.

It had everything to do with it. The Master Sword was canceling Ganondorf's Triforce of Power, and all that was left was the bit of Ganondorf's own power in Zant. Since, you know, Zant was given some of Ganondorf's power. Whatever Zant did prevented Ganondorf from using that little bit that was left, so he had nothing. Had the Master Sword not been impaling Ganondorf, Zant's little sliver of Power would have done nothing.

The Master Sword is specifically designed to counter things like Ganondorf's evil power, so it's really one of the only things that will work. You'd need an Evil's Bane weapon or power to do similar, not just something powerful.

They inconsistent and he's not far above his fellow hyrulians. The point is he is stronger than mostly any human but nowhere near portrayed as some kind of freak in his own universe. All characters pretty much in mk have body ripping in half strength so Link isn't portrayed as being anywhere near as strong as say a four armed monster or Shao Kahn by consistent portrayals.

Link is portrayed as strong enough to throw a large armored Goron, a giant ice mass, and to routinely kill massive monsters. He's portrayed and recognized as a hero able to do things no one else can. You're opinion doesn't mean much when Link lifts huge chandeliers and push metal blocks. That's frankly greater than ripping in half strength and it's quite consistent given that it keeps happening in every game. Heck, look at the interview again, Link is intended to be superhuman by pushing those blocks.

Link;s not portrayed as stronger than Bo like I said. There's really no examples of him just flat out overpowering anyone due to super strength in his own game. It's all a combination of skill/technique, etc. That's my whole point. In the game all of hyrule isn't super strong you just need the boots to negate a goron as silly as it sounds it's the truth.

Yes, he is. He defeated Bo in a sumo wrestling match, pushing him out of the ring. And Bo is also incredibly strong, since the guy can push Gorons around and has tusks. It's a combination of skill, technique and the super strength Link has displayed. He clearly has skill and strength, not just one, which is, in fact, my whole point. Link the boots only for stopping horizontal movement, but his vertical lifting is clearly super human.

It's a lot harder to throw a combatant than an inanimate object. When Shao Kahn swings his hammer he has sent people flying. That's called being portrayed as a lot stronger than most of your peers which Link doesn't have going for him since he's never been this uberly strong guy just a feat wanked character, obviously.

Link has sent people flying with a sword strike before. Like here for instance. Of course, there's also this, where Link hitting Blizzeta throws her across the room, much better than just flinging a person.

Bo is an older man while Link is in his prime so I would say Link is probably stronger than him but not by a noticeable difference to suggest he's out of his class. That's what happens when you are just super strong and are portrayed as such in your own games.

Bo wrestles Gorons. The guy is strong, too. However, that's still early in the game, very different from Link's later feats of strength, by which time he is much stronger than Bo. What you're not getting is that Link gets stronger as he goes. The game is all about his growth and increase in power. He's portrayed as always improving, after all.

You're dodging the gist of the argument which is that super strength does allow fictional characters to negate weight.

Burning answered this post quite adequately.

In his Ganon form Ganondorf is a pure brute, no magic, no sorcery just straight physical strength.

To improve on this; the transformation into Ganon from Ganondorf is involuntary. And further, if you choose to decide Ganon's physical might is equal to or greater than Ganondorf's magical might, we have just created a ****ing INCREDIBLE brick. 😐 Since, you know, the guy has frozen entire cities on multiple occasions. (He /really/ hates Zoras O-o) With his power sealed away he busted an island, and stopped the flow of day into night across the entire world along with summoning a ridiculously widespread storm. For him to give up the kind of power he has for physical might? Yeah, kool, I'll take that feat, that would make Link durable enough to survive picking his teeth with nukes D:<... Ish. Haven't done any actual math on that yet, but if you insist that this is what's happening, I might have to. ^_^

Merging kingdoms is less than merging entire dimensions. Playing tennis with lightning? When? I hope you're not talking OOT because that was a magical bolt, not lightning.

Also;

That was off screen we never see him actually using TK to lift it. That's down to magic, it's pretty inconclusive when we don't actually see Ganondorf do it.

Teleportation, combat effective teleportation is what plenty of MK characters have, a few can also be intangible for brief periods. What does clairvoyance do for Ganon? MK characters can also create monsters, in fact they do it all the time in Outworld.

Yet he's hurt by magica arrows a sword, magic beams from Zelda, magic beams can also bind him. He can also be hurt by other swords besides the master sword.

No one in MK has the physical or magical might to harm Ganon. An elite MKer would be just as much fodder to him as one of the bottom-feeders of the universe. He's tanked castle busting force and survived being stabbed in the face by the master sword. 😐 Seriously, he soloes.

Pretty much every sorcerer and mystical warrior worth their salt in MK can match him. Some like Raiden surpass him imo.

Let me put it this way, Ganon and Ganondorf run on the same battery, why would one have higher power output?

One could say the same about Bruce Banner and the Hulk, could they not?

Ganon is bigger and has more muscles. Logically he should be stronger and hit harder.

One could say the same about Bruce Banner and the Hulk, could they not?

No, since anger explicitly makes the Hulk stronger, nothing indicates the ToP works this way.

I was more talking about Bruce transforming into a huge hulking brick and getting much stronger as a result. Similar to Ganon.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I was more talking about Bruce transforming into a huge hulking brick and getting much stronger as a result. Similar to Ganon.

Power does not = strength. Ganon is bigger and more muscular than Dorf and so he is logically stronger. You know damn well that there are a multitude of examples of characters changing their form and their powerset with it. Its a frickin' staple of the genre.

The trope picture shows Maleficent transforming into a dragon for example. Are you suggesting that she's as strong as a dragon in her humanoid form just because both forms share the same power source?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Power does not = strength. Ganon is bigger and more muscular than Dorf and so he is logically stronger. You know damn well that there are a multitude of examples of characters changing their form and their powerset with it. Its a frickin' staple of the genre.

The trope picture shows Maleficent transforming into a dragon for example. Are you suggesting that she's as strong as a dragon in her humanoid form just because both forms share the same power source?

Don't strawman me.

Ganon's is involuntary

So?

and his powerset doesn't change.

It doesn't? So he uses magic attacks and stuff in his beast forms then? I thought he just attacked with swords and breath thing or bullrushed Link as opposed to throwing ball lightning around.

Though, what you suggest gives me a lot of new feats. You are cool with that, right?

How so?

It doesn't? So he uses magic and stuff in his beast forms then? I thought he just attacked with swords or bullrushed Link.

He does use magic. Shit, in every game before OoT Ganon was in his Ganon form exclusively, and has always used powerful magic. In TP, the most recent game he's been in, he teleports around the field and shit in his beast form. 😬

I updated my post. Also you didn't reply to the other stuffs. crackers

Originally posted by Nephthys
I updated my post.

Nah. I don't see him chucking around ball lightning in his beast form.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Nah. I don't see him chucking around ball lightning in his beast form.

I've never seen him use ball lightning at all due to him having actual lightning at his disposal.

😛

You know what I mean.

Originally posted by Nephthys
😛

You know what I mean.

His beast form in TP is totaly different than that of his other games. I remain unconviced hey share the same properties.

Well frankly I don't know what else to call it. Its a ball and its lightning. Its not like I can say he was chucking lightning bolts around, because he clearly isn't doing that at all.

His beast form in TP is totaly different than that of his other games. I remain unconviced hey share the same properties.