ROTS Obi-Wan runs a gauntlet

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
🤨 Uhm... NO! As of TPM, he used Ataru... as of AotC, he used Soresu.

Obi-Wan steadied himself and shifted his lightsaber from hand to hand, getting a better grip on it. Then he exploded into motion, coming on again fiercely, his blue lightsaber flashing all about. He kept a better measure of his cuts this time, though, reversing his angle often, turning a wide slash into a sudden thrust[...]" - Attack of the Clones.

Slashes and chops are not part of Form III combat.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Actually, he kinda did.

Originally posted by Nephthys
As of AOTC he used Ataru. As of ROTS he is the greatest master of Soresu in the Jedi Order. As well as his constant fighting in the CW's and the fact that Dooku flat out is surprised at his prowess in ROTS as opposed to the way he toyed with him in AOTC.

He might have attacked Dooku with Ataru but come on his main form had to be soresu.. Unless your implying that in 3 years of soresu he became the ultimate master..

As for him being the ultimate master of soresu, that Mace's opinion.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He might have attacked Dooku with Ataru but come on his main form had to be soresu.. Unless your implying that in 3 years of soresu he became the ultimate master..

As for him being the ultimate master of soresu, that Mace's opinion.

And Mace is ALWAYS giving high praise to his contemporaries.

Originally posted by Galan007
Love the low-balling here. srsly

LOL @ Low- balling.. He never fought Dooku one one one. Even two on one it was for hardly a few seconds.

Loads of Jedi council members can beat GG.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He might have attacked Dooku with Ataru but come on his main form had to be soresu.. Unless your implying that in 3 years of soresu he became the ultimate master..

As for him being the ultimate master of soresu, that Mace's opinion.

Do you know of a Jedi whose prowess with Soresu was better than Kenobi's? If not, then Mace's praise was certainly warranted.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
LOL @ Low- balling.. He never fought Dooku one one one. Even two on one it was for hardly a few seconds.

Originally posted by Galan007
"Obi-Wan leapt and spun, slashing side to side, chopping and thrusting, but all of Dooku's movements seemed far more efficient[...]

His words spurred Obi-Wan forward with another series of slashes and chops, but Dooku's red blade angled left and then right, then up just enough to send Obi-Wan's descending blade slipping off to the side[...]

Obi-Wan steadied himself and shifted his lightsaber from hand to hand, getting a better grip on it. Then he exploded into motion, coming on again fiercely, his blue lightsaber flashing all about. He kept a better measure of his cuts this time, though, reversing his angle often, turning a wide slash into a sudden thrust[...]" - Attack of the Clones.

Slashes and chops are not part of Form III combat.

Disarm him in sabers only? No, he did not.

Just because he embraced Soresu doesn't mean he's incapable of slashing and chopping. Don't let fighting form suddenly become a list of moves a la Street Fighter.

Obi-Wan clearly adopted Soresu after noticing Ataru's lack of defense after Qui-Gon was killed, but he was capable of offensive maneuvering when possible. It simply wasn't in line with Soresu to go offensive all the time.

As if a saber style strictly forbade its user from using anything but a specific list of movements. 🙄

As I watched Obi-Wan through The Clone Wars, I was always a little surprised to see just how many offensive slashes and thrusts the "defensive prodigy" made.

when QGJ can put out over 20 strikes a second, he will have a chance to overwhelm kenobi's defenses.

Nonononono. No.

At twenty strikes per second Kenobi's defenses were "overloaded." Okay? Twenty = overload. More than twenty = more than necessary for overload.

People have abused that figure since 2005. Enough.

*Pikaaaaa-CHUUUUU!!!*

Originally posted by Galan007
I'm sure he had some knowledge of Soresu during AotC, but it obviously wasn't his form of choice. And in the RotS novelization, Dooku notes that Kenobi had become a master of Soresu - implying that he wasn't in their last battle.

I highly doubt Kenobi went from having "some knowledge" in AOTC and not even being a Master of the Form, to 3 years later being the ultimate master of the from. Very very unlikely.

Also Dooku not knowing the Forms of Anakin or Kenobi makes no sense now. He's fought Anakin twice now in CW plus once in AOTC. Are we really supposed to believe those 3 times he fought Dooku with Shien while he was secretly mastering Djem So??

That whole extract might not be canon now. Not to mention that fight in the movie was always a heck of a lot longer than what we see in the movie.

Originally posted by Galan007
Do you know of a Jedi whose prowess with Soresu was better than Kenobi's? If not, then Mace's praise was certainly warranted.

Not really. Im sure Kenobi was a high level master. But even if he was like one of the top 10 Soresu practitoners in the galaxy, Mace or Yoda would probably call him "The Master" because they think highly of him as a Jedi. Its an opinion. Thats all.

Originally posted by Galan007
It was mentioned in the novelization that Dooku essentially came to the realization that trying to beat Kenobi saber to saber was almost pointless - his Soresu presented too good of a defense. That's why he opted to use force attacks.

I remember, but actually if you want to go by the novel he took Kenobi out with a kick to the face. Where was his amazing defence then? And that while fighting ROTS Anakin?! Lol

Now that I think about it, Ventress also diarmed Obi-Wan with a kick in CW..

Originally posted by truejedi
when QGJ can put out over 20 strikes a second, he will have a chance to overwhelm kenobi's defenses.

Firstly its QGJ plus young Obi-Wan. Secondly I doubt Ventress was striking 20 times a second BOTH times she's disarmed Obi-Wan.

I highly doubt Kenobi went from having "some knowledge" in AOTC and not even being a Master of the Form, to 3 years later being the ultimate master of the from. Very very unlikely.

We're not saying he had no knowledge of it, but he certainly wasn't a master of it, and he didn't use it against Dooku. And you forget that he was in constant warfare in between those periods. He had to vasly improve just to survive.

Not to mention that Dooku says quite clearly in the novel 'Kenobi had become a master of Soresu.' 'Become', not 'slightly improved with it.'

Also Dooku not knowing the Forms of Anakin or Kenobi makes no sense now. He's fought Anakin twice now in CW plus once in AOTC. Are we really supposed to believe those 3 times he fought Dooku with Shien while he was secretly mastering Djem So??

Yes.

Not really. Im sure Kenobi was a high level master. But even if he was like one of the top 10 Soresu practitoners in the galaxy, Mace or Yoda would probably call him "The Master" because they think highly of him as a Jedi. Its an opinion. Thats all.

Bullshit. If there was someone better than Kenobi they would have sent him after Grievous. They're not going to rest the fate of teh galaxy on him just to boost his ego.

To top it off Mace is a Soresu master himself and one of the most skilled lightsaber duelists in the mythos. His opinion is pretty darn informed on the matter.

I remember, but actually if you want to go by the novel he took Kenobi out with a kick to the face. Where was his amazing defence then? And that while fighting ROTS Anakin?! Lol

I agree. Getting taken down by Counter Motherfvcking Dooku is really bad form. 😬

Now that I think about it, Ventress also diarmed Obi-Wan with a kick in CW..

CW /=/ ROTS.

Firstly its QGJ plus young Obi-Wan.

Young Obi-Wan is no match for his older, vastly more skilled counterpart. He's a non-issue.

Theres a scene in I think Labyrinth of Evil where he handily demonstrates his skill with the form by singlehandedly defending against some 50-100 battle droids at once and defeating them all merely with deflections. An unprecidented defense.

Counter Motherfvcking Dooku

facepalm

well Faunus, what is the number before that? 19? 19 strokes a second is pretty darn good too, and i'm pretty sure QGJ can't do that.

Originally posted by Nephthys
We're not saying he had no knowledge of it, but he certainly wasn't a master of it, and he didn't use it against Dooku. And you forget that he was in constant warfare in between those periods. He had to vasly improve just to survive.

Why was he called a Master in AOTC if he had not even masterted a single form yet? Or was he not a Jedi Master yet?

And I know he was fighting in a 3 year war, but still its very unlikely he went from just being proficient in a form to being the Ultimate Master in just 3 years. War or not, that seems highly unlikely.

Either way by CW series he should already be a High Level Master of the form, and yet still gets disarmed by a good enough opponent.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Not to mention that Dooku says quite clearly in the novel 'Kenobi had [b]become a master of Soresu.' 'Become', not 'slightly improved with it.' [/B]

Yeah the same Dooku who after 3 fights hasn't worked out what form Anakin uses yet. That whole part of the novel has clearly been written off by CW.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Bullshit. If there was someone better than Kenobi they would have sent him after Grievous. They're not going to rest the fate of teh galaxy on him just to boost his ego.

Mind the language young one. Theres plenty of Jedi that can beat GG in a fight. The Council agreed to send their most "cunning and tenacious warrior" to get Grievous. That was Kenobi. If it was just about swordsmanship they could have just as easily sent Kit Fisto whose proven himself a vastly superior swordsman to GG already.

Originally posted by Nephthys
To top it off Mace is a Soresu master himself and one of the most skilled lightsaber duelists in the mythos. His opinion is pretty darn informed on the matter.

Mace is what?! A master of soresu?? Proof please. In Dark Rendezvous theres a quote that says Anakin or Mace would get easily frustrated with a style as defensive as Soresu.

Mace's opinion is also that Anakin maybe stronger than Yoda. He is flawed. Im sure Obi-Wan is one of the best Soresu users, but being The Best, is an opinion of someone who thinks very highly of him, and is his fellow Jedi Council member. So you cant tell me theres no room for being biased there.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I agree. Getting taken down by Counter Motherfvcking Dooku is really bad form. 😬

The argument was that according to the novel Kenobi's defence was too good for Dooku to take down without a Force attack.

Originally posted by Nephthys
CW /=/ ROTS.

And yet he should be close to his ROTS by now in CW. This whole debate was about providing proof that Kenobi has "Significantly" improved by ROTS from CW.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Young Obi-Wan is no match for his older, vastly more skilled counterpart. He's a non-issue.

A non-issue while fighting off Qui-Gon?! Lol I doubt it. Whats he gna do dipsose of him easily with a flick of the wrist like Dooku did to ROTS Kenobi? How he gna be a Non-Issue? He was an issue to a very well trained Sith Lord.

He began using Soresu after that, so theres a good chance he was at the peak of his Ataru at around the time of TPM. He will be an issue.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Theres a scene in I think Labyrinth of Evil where he handily demonstrates his skill with the form by singlehandedly defending against some 50-100 battle droids at once and defeating them all merely with deflections. An unprecidented defense.

Thats cool. But Id hope any Council memeber could do something similar. Still doesnt show Ventress couldn't still beat him at that point.

Originally posted by truejedi
well Faunus, what is the number before that? 19? 19 strokes a second is pretty darn good too, and i'm pretty sure QGJ can't do that.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Firstly its QGJ plus young Obi-Wan. Secondly I doubt Ventress was striking 20 times a second BOTH times she's disarmed Obi-Wan.

Why was he called a Master in AOTC if he had not even masterted a single form yet? Or was he not a Jedi Master yet?

You don't have to be a lightsaber master to be a Jedi Master.

And I know he was fighting in a 3 year war, but still its very unlikely he went from just being proficient in a form to being the Ultimate Master in just 3 years. War or not, that seems highly unlikely.

I guess you're unaware of the speed at which Force users can learn things in this universe. Jaden Korr, Kyle Katarn, Bane, the list goes on.

Either way by CW series he should already be a High Level Master of the form

Er, why?

Yeah the same Dooku who after 3 fights hasn't worked out what form Anakin uses yet. That whole part of the novel has clearly been written off by CW.

No it hasn't. Anakin was secretly training his Djem So. Simple.

Mind the language young one.

No.

Theres plenty of Jedi that can beat GG in a fight.

Mace, Yoda, Kit Fisto, Kenobi and Anakin. Thats 5.

It doesn't seem like they could just send anyone to me.

If it was just about swordsmanship they could have just as easily sent Kit Fisto whose proven himself a vastly superior swordsman to GG already.

The novel specifically mentions they were keeping Jedi on Coruscant in case Palpatine started trouble. Also Kit Fisto himself agreed to send Kenobi, so clearly he thinks he's the better choice.

Mace is what?! A master of soresu?? Proof please. In Dark Rendezvous theres a quote that says Anakin or Mace would get easily frustrated with a style as defensive as Soresu.

Yeah, I made that part up. I was rather hoping you wouldn't ask me to elaborate.

He is still a master of several forms and creator of his own and one of the best lightsaber duelists in the mythos. He's still an expert on the subject.

Mace's opinion is also that Anakin maybe stronger than Yoda.

Quote? And Anakin may be stronger than Yoda. The novel flat out says he's the fastest Jedi alive and when he got serious he casually pwned Dooku, something not even Yoda could do. Is just that hes a moron who can't realsie his potential.

Im sure Obi-Wan is one of the best Soresu users, but being The Best, is an opinion of someone who thinks very highly of him, and is his fellow Jedi Council member. So you cant tell me theres no room for being biased there.

Well I am. Theres a reason he thinks highly of him.

The argument was that according to the novel Kenobi's defence was too good for Dooku to take down without a Force attack.

Your point is still invalid. The novel contradicts the movie here, so he didn't get taken out with a boot to the face.

Also you'll notice that twice he relies on the Force to take out Kenobi.

YouTube video

And yet he should be close to his ROTS by now in CW. This whole debate was about providing proof that Kenobi has "Significantly" improved by ROTS from CW.

I thought it was about that he had significatly improved from AOTC/TPM. Clone Wars Obi-Wan isn't in this thread.

A non-issue while fighting off Qui-Gon?! Lol I doubt it.

He was when fighting Maul.

Whats he gna do dipsose of him easily with a flick of the wrist like Dooku did to ROTS Kenobi?

Maybe. 😉

He was an issue to a very well trained Sith Lord.

No he wasn't.

He began using Soresu after that, so theres a good chance he was at the peak of his Ataru at around the time of TPM. He will be an issue.

No he didn't, as Galen's quote proves:

"Obi-Wan leapt and spun, slashing side to side, chopping and thrusting, but all of Dooku's movements seemed far more efficient[...]

His words spurred Obi-Wan forward with another series of slashes and chops, but Dooku's red blade angled left and then right, then up just enough to send Obi-Wan's descending blade slipping off to the side[...]

Obi-Wan steadied himself and shifted his lightsaber from hand to hand, getting a better grip on it. Then he exploded into motion, coming on again fiercely, his blue lightsaber flashing all about. He kept a better measure of his cuts this time, though, reversing his angle often, turning a wide slash into a sudden thrust[...]" - Attack of the Clones.

Thats cool. But Id hope any Council memeber could do something similar.

They can't.

YouTube video

0.55

Still doesnt show Ventress couldn't still beat him at that point.

Ventress is a master swordsman. She's beaten Kit Fisto before. Losing to her is no shame.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No it hasn't. Anakin was secretly training his Djem So. Simple.

LOL

Originally posted by Nephthys
Mace, Yoda, Kit Fisto, Kenobi and Anakin. Thats 5.

Urm some random Jedi named Koth. Which means guys like Agen Kolar and Tiin could defo take him too.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well I am. Theres a reason he thinks highly of him.

His Cunning, his tenaciousness, his Wisdom?? Or maybe the reason he doesn't think much of Skywalker i.e. He trusts Kenobi. Seriously there could be a million reasons for Mace to be biased. His opinion is not the all and end all.

"I do not believe the Sith could have returned without us knowing" Mace TPM.

"You know my lady Count Dooku was once one of us. Its not in his character" Mace AOTC.

Both times Mace's opinon. Both times WRONG!

Originally posted by Nephthys
Also you'll notice that twice he relies on the Force to take out Kenobi.

For GOD's Sake, he was fighting Anakin at the same time. The fact that he was matching them both Id say is a win for Dooku in Sabers right there!

Originally posted by Nephthys
He was when fighting Maul.

If he was a non-factor when fighting Maul, the whole fight wouldn't have lasted a minute.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No he didn't, as Galen's quote proves:

LOL.. So he apparently cant even master One form in like 20 years of training, and then you expect me to believe that in the next 3 years he has become THE Ultimate Master of a completely different form! LOL

Originally posted by Nephthys
They can't.

You just posted me Order 66 as proof that Kenobi is better than Ki-Adi-Mundi!!!!

And people say Im low-balling!

Originally posted by Nephthys
Ventress is a master swordsman. She's beaten Kit Fisto before. Losing to her is no shame.

Cool. Im not really sure what we're debating then. If Ventress can beat him, then he's not in the league of Mace or Dooku in Sabers and his defences are not impenetrable. End Of.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Urm some random Jedi named Koth.

facepalm

Originally posted by Nephthys
To top it off Mace is a Soresu master himself and one of the most skilled lightsaber duelists in the mythos. His opinion is pretty darn informed on the matter.

What? Where do you come up with this? High end master of multiple forms doesn't mean master of Soresu. Multiple = 2 or more. Last time I checked, there were 7 main styles. Mace could have been a master of Ataru (likely given that Vaapad includes advanced spinning and leaping maneuvers), Djem So, Shii-Cho, Niman (possible due to Mace's masterful use of Jar'kai' in some of his duels), or even Makashi (given his sparring sessions w/ Dooku - though there is no evidence of this that I'm aware of). So again, how did you come up w/ Mace being a Soresu master? That's a new one.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah, I made that part up. I was rather hoping you wouldn't ask me to elaborate.