I noticed you didn't reply to half my points. Bad boy.
LOL
Yup, the truth is pretty funny.
Urm some random Jedi named Koth.
You mean Jedi Council Member Eeth Koth? Yeah, random as shit. 😐
He defeated Greivous with the Force, and was forced on the defensive throughout their exchange.
Which means guys like Agen Kolar and Tiin could defo take him too.
Nope!
His Cunning, his tenaciousness, his Wisdom??
Which clearly Kenobi demonstrated when he... leapt into a ring of battle droids and challenged Grievous to one-on-one combat. Whoops.
"I do not believe the Sith could have returned without us knowing" Mace TPM.
"You know my lady Count Dooku was once one of us. Its not in his character" Mace AOTC.
Both times Mace's opinon. Both times WRONG!
Both things Windu could not have made educated guesses on. The Sith had been silent for a millennia, no reason to beleive they were back, especially with the Jedi so strong. And he couldn't of possibly have known Dooku had fallen.
On the matter of lightsaber techniques however, he is an expert, displaying enough technical proficientcy to completely invent his own Form. His words can be trusted.
For GOD's Sake, he was fighting Anakin at the same time. The fact that he was matching them both Id say is a win for Dooku in Sabers right there!
As the novel points out he was seriously struggling to match them both. And again, Dooku is veeery much >>>>>>>>> Qui-Gon.
If he was a non-factor when fighting Maul, the whole fight wouldn't have lasted a minute.
And you base this on?
LOL.. So he apparently cant even master One form in like 20 years of training, and then you expect me to believe that in the next 3 years he has become THE Ultimate Master of a completely different form! LOL
Years he spent training Anakin. During peacetime. So, yes, thats exactly what I expect you to believe.
You just posted me Order 66 as proof that Kenobi is better than Ki-Adi-Mundi!!!!And people say Im low-balling!
You said any Council member. I gave you any Council member. 🙂
Cool. Im not really sure what we're debating then. If Ventress can beat him, then he's not in the league of Mace or Dooku in Sabers and his defences are not impenetrable. End Of.
Well we're not talking about Mace or Dooku are we? We're talking about effing Qui-Gon Jinn. Noone ever claimed his defences were impenetrable, but he is the best defensive fighter in the mythos as of ROTS.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I noticed you didn't reply to half my points. Bad boy.
Tryin to keep things shortish and to the point without repeating myself. Not avoiding you Lol
Originally posted by Nephthys
You mean [b]Jedi Council Member Eeth Koth? Yeah, random as shit. 😐He defeated Greivous with the Force, and was forced on the defensive throughout their exchange. [/B]
Since when was Koth a match for Agen Kolar or Sasee Tiin?? Force or not he defeated GG. Theres a fair few Jedi who can defeat GG.
If he can be defeated via Force attack by the likes of Koth, then it again makes the reasoning of sending Kenobi due to his ultimate mastery of Soresu kind of moot.
So lets see the list is so far Yoda, Mace, Kenobi, Skywalker, Fisto, Koth and almost definetely Kolar and Tiin. Im sure that list will still grow as well.
But I will give you the fact that during CW we've only seen Fisto beat GG in Sabers alone (I think).. But that still doesn't put ROTS Kenobi even above CW Fisto going by the GG feat.
So you guys have to bring more to the table than his defeat of GG. Capiche?
Originally posted by Nephthys
Which clearly Kenobi demonstrated when he... leapt into a ring of battle droids and challenged Grievous to one-on-one combat. Whoops.
Mace going on about how great Kenobi is obviously gave him a big head!
Originally posted by Nephthys
Both things Windu could not have made educated guesses on. The Sith had been silent for a millennia, no reason to beleive they were back, especially with the Jedi so strong. And he couldn't of possibly have known Dooku had fallen.
Shows hes fallible. He knew Dooku quite well, and was also aware of the Dark Side growing in power. And the guy is Head of the Council, so he should have some kind of expertise in these matters.
Originally posted by Nephthys
As the novel points out he was seriously struggling to match them both.
Mainly due to Anakin. Kenobi was not a threat on his own. And the seriously struggling against both is also contradicting the movie.
Originally posted by Nephthys
And again, Dooku is veeery much >>>>>>>>> Qui-Gon.
Irrelevant. Dooku had to take on both Kenobi AND Anakin, the latter who defeated Dooku by himself.
Whilst this fight is ROTS Kenobi vs Qui-Gon with help from young Obi-Wan.
Originally posted by Nephthys
And you base this on?
Based on Maul being able to defeat QGJ in under a minute. So if Kenobi was a non factor then.......
Originally posted by Stealth MoosePoint was: the AotC novelization makes it blatantly clear that Kenobi was not utilizing Soresu vs. Dooku, nor was he a master of it (as he'd become by the time RotS rolled around.)
Just because he embraced Soresu doesn't mean he's incapable of slashing and chopping. Don't let fighting form suddenly become a list of moves a la Street Fighter.Obi-Wan clearly adopted Soresu after noticing Ataru's lack of defense after Qui-Gon was killed, but he was capable of offensive maneuvering when possible. It simply wasn't in line with Soresu to go offensive all the time.
Originally posted by Nephthys👆
We're not saying he had no knowledge of it, but he certainly wasn't a master of it, and he didn't use it against Dooku. And you forget that he was in constant warfare in between those periods. He had to vasly improve just to survive.Not to mention that Dooku says quite clearly in the novel 'Kenobi had [b]become
a master of Soresu.' 'Become', not 'slightly improved with it.'Yes.
Bullshit. If there was someone better than Kenobi they would have sent him after Grievous. They're not going to rest the fate of teh galaxy on him just to boost his ego.
To top it off Mace is a Soresu master himself and one of the most skilled lightsaber duelists in the mythos. His opinion is pretty darn informed on the matter.
I agree. Getting taken down by Counter Motherfvcking Dooku is really bad form. 😬
CW /=/ ROTS.
Young Obi-Wan is no match for his older, vastly more skilled counterpart. He's a non-issue.
Theres a scene in I think Labyrinth of Evil where he handily demonstrates his skill with the form by singlehandedly defending against some 50-100 battle droids at once and defeating them all merely with deflections. An unprecidented defense. [/B]
Originally posted by DARTH POWERAnakin was the bigger threat, I'll give you that. However, Dooku specifically noted in the novelization that Obi-Wan, on his own, was a threat due to the defense his Soresu offered - which, again, is why Dooku used force attacks to subdue him, as opposed to overwhelming him in sabers.
Mainly due to Anakin. Kenobi was not a threat on his own. And the seriously struggling against both is also contradicting the movie.
LOL.. So he apparently cant even master One form in like 20 years of training, and then you expect me to believe that in the next 3 years he has become THE Ultimate Master of a completely different form! LOL
Ummm, yeah that's not impossible at all. In fact, it is very likely. Three years is a lot of time to master a form you are already familiar with. Most jedi learn elements of soresu at a young age to be able to defend against blasters and such. Kenobi just happened to be better than most in this particular area. He was a natural.
Originally posted by Galan007
Point was: the AotC novelization makes it blatantly clear that Kenobi was not utilizing Soresu vs. Dooku, nor was he a master of it (as he'd become by the time RotS rolled around.)
I won't say Kenobi was a Soresu master at this point because that's clearly wrong, but he had spent a decade training in it, which is the very definition of proficient. In any case, it's not "blatantly clear" that people using saber like weapons cut and slash side to side suddenly are incapable of using a defensive-minded philosophy which is about movements which protect the body from exposure to gunfire and swordswipes.
Unless you have a direct and conclusive statement from the novel that Obi-Wan was not using Soresu, this is insufficient. Secondly, the original Fightsaber article was developed based on live-action examination from AotC, meaning the idea of forms was not even on paper when Salvatore wrote the book.
So I think I just answered for you. The point is, Salvatore's writing does not conclusively prove Obi-Wan had abandoned Soresu. And other sources have indicated that Obi-Wan knew Ataru so he was clearly not a one-trick pony. He also knew Sokan; does this make his defensive philosophy invalid?
👆
Anakin was the bigger threat, I'll give you that. However, Dooku specifically noted in the novelization that Obi-Wan, on his own, was a threat due to the defense his Soresu offered - which, again, is why Dooku used force attacks to subdue him, as opposed to overwhelming him in sabers.
But the novelization is utter garbage when it comes to examining the fights. The on-screen fights tell the purest story of the fight as it canonically happened. The point is, Kenobi could not threaten Dooku with his fighting style and Dooku regularly removed him from the fight because he wanted to piss Skywalker off. The idea that Soresu suddenly became too much for a Makashi master is ludicrous.
Originally posted by Galan007
Anakin was the bigger threat, I'll give you that. However, Dooku specifically noted in the novelization that Obi-Wan, on his own, was a threat due to the defense his Soresu offered - which, again, is why Dooku used force attacks to subdue him, as opposed to overwhelming him in sabers.
You see your taking parts of the novel (Dooku not dare striking through Obi-Wan's defences), and then parts of the movie (Casual Force attacks on Obi-Wan) and making your own conclusion, that Dooku HAD to use the Force on Obi-Wan.
Well the same novel that says Dooku dared not strike on Obi-Wan, has Dooku knocking Obi-Wan Out with a Kick to the face. So even from the Novel's point of view, the only reason he did not dare strike against Obi-Wan Defences, is because that would be suicide while he had a "Destroyer Droid with a lightsaber" on his case. Nothing in the novel suggested Dooku would have had even the slightest difficulty if he just tackled Obi-Wan by himself (which he never once had a chance to do in ROTS).
Now I knw your gna say, but the movie shows he didnt take out Obi-Wan with a kick.. Well the same movie never once showed Dooku struggling in the slightest against Obi-Wan, so the point is moot.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Ummm, yeah that's not impossible at all. In fact, it is very likely. Three years is a lot of time to master a form you are already familiar with. Most jedi learn elements of soresu at a young age to be able to defend against blasters and such. Kenobi just happened to be better than most in this particular area. He was a natural.
Its possible if he was already practising Soresu. These guys are trying to claim he didnt start using Soresu until after AOTC, and then in just 3 years he did not only master it, but became THE Master of it.
Very hard to believe a guy JUST Using Ataru for 20 years, but never managed to become a Master of that form over such a long period, suddenly in just 3 years he becomes THE Master of a completely new form.
The fact that everyone learns basics of Soresu makes little difference IMO.
Originally posted by Stealth MooseHuh? I've already acknowledged that Kenobi knew Soresu quite well - he simply wasn't a "master" of it during AotC.
I won't say Kenobi was a Soresu master at this point because that's clearly wrong, but he had spent a decade training in it, which is the very definition of proficient. In any case, it's not "blatantly clear" that people using saber like weapons cut and slash side to side suddenly are incapable of using a defensive-minded philosophy which is about movements which protect the body from exposure to gunfire and swordswipes.Unless you have a direct and conclusive statement from the novel that Obi-Wan was not using Soresu, this is insufficient. Secondly, the original Fightsaber article was developed based on live-action examination from AotC, meaning the idea of forms was not even on paper when Salvatore wrote the book.
So I think I just answered for you. The point is, Salvatore's writing does not conclusively prove Obi-Wan had abandoned Soresu. And other sources have indicated that Obi-Wan knew Ataru so he was clearly not a one-trick pony. He also knew Sokan; does this make his defensive philosophy invalid?
Additionally, the novelization does make it blatantly clear that Kenobi was not utilizing Soresu against Dooku. His entire strategy in that fight relied almost exclusively on delivering a constant offense - the polar opposite of Soresu, which relies solely on defense.
That much really can't be argued, imo.
Originally posted by Stealth MooseWhere this point is concerned, the novel does not contradict the film. Dooku noted that it was essentially a waste of time trying to penetrate Kenobi's saber defenses (especially while also having to deal with a second attacker), so he opted to trounce him with the force. Simple.
But the novelization is utter garbage when it comes to examining the fights. The on-screen fights tell the purest story of the fight as it canonically happened. The point is, Kenobi could not threaten Dooku with his fighting style and Dooku regularly removed him from the fight because he wanted to piss Skywalker off.The idea that Soresu suddenly became too much for a Makashi master is ludicrous.
Never said Soresu was "too much" for Makashi - please stop adding your opinions to my post. I said that Kenobi's Soresu was enough to pose a threat to Dooku, which is true. Dooku acknowledged that much in the novelization.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You see your taking parts of the novel (Dooku not dare striking through Obi-Wan's defences), and then parts of the movie (Casual Force attacks on Obi-Wan) and making your own conclusion, that Dooku HAD to use the Force on Obi-Wan.Well the same novel that says Dooku dared not strike on Obi-Wan, has Dooku knocking Obi-Wan Out with a Kick to the face. So even from the Novel's point of view, the only reason he did not dare strike against Obi-Wan Defences, is because that would be suicide while he had a "Destroyer Droid with a lightsaber" on his case. Nothing in the novel suggested Dooku would have had even the slightest difficulty if he just tackled Obi-Wan by himself (which he never once had a chance to do in ROTS).
Now I knw your gna say, but the movie shows he didnt take out Obi-Wan with a kick.. Well the same movie never once showed Dooku struggling in the slightest against Obi-Wan, so the point is moot.
Agreed - didn't have the time to sit and bang out a response to N's lunacy. This statment pretty much echoes my thoughts on the subject. N, you cannot, while remaining credible, use the novel to support your argument, then go on to say it doesn't apply when it becomes inconvenient.
I can actually. The novelisation stands unless it directly contradicts the movie. To my knowledge neither I nor Galen have used extracts that do that in our arguments.
Additionally, the novelization does make it blatantly clear that Kenobi was not utilizing Soresu against Dooku. His entire strategy in that fight relied almost exclusively on delivering a constant offense - the polar opposite of Soresu, which relies solely on defense.That much really can't be argued, imo.
👆
Originally posted by Nephthys
I can actually. The novelisation stands unless it directly contradicts the movie. To my knowledge neither I nor Galen have used extracts that do that in our arguments.👆
The movie sure as HELL doesn't show Dooku struggling at ALL w/ Kenobi in sabers, so... yeah.
Tryin to keep things shortish and to the point without repeating myself. Not avoiding you Lol
Suuuuuuuuuurrrre.
😉
Since when was Koth a match for Agen Kolar or Sasee Tiin?? Force or not he defeated GG.
Well going by their feats since he was able to stand up to Grievous. I admit though that I don't know crap about them other than that they are apparently good swordsmen.
Also he didn't beat Grievous:
If he can be defeated via Force attack by the likes of Koth, then it again makes the reasoning of sending Kenobi due to his ultimate mastery of Soresu kind of moot.
He didn't defeat him. One Force Push does not equal a win. 😐
and almost definetely Kolar and Tiin.
Not really. They couldn't even defend against Palpatine's blitz. According to the ROTS novelisation, Grievous is faster than Palpatine.
But I will give you the fact that during CW we've only seen Fisto beat GG in Sabers alone (I think).. But that still doesn't put ROTS Kenobi even above CW Fisto going by the GG feat.
Yes it does. Kenobi cut off two hands. Fisto could only manage one.
So you guys have to bring more to the table than his defeat of GG. Capiche?
Not really. All you've said so far is that since Kit Fisto could beat him so could Qui-Gon. Thats blatantly stupid.
Kenobi's defeat of Grievous and his defence against his fabled '20-strikes per second' on top of the Labyrinth feat on top of the personal glorifying from Windu and even Dooku, who described his defence as 'perfect' are superior to anything Qui-Gon has demonstrated. ROTS Kenobi is well > Qui-Gon and his younger self by a longshot. He would defeat Maul should they fight again, and Maul kicked the crap out of those two without even breathing hard afterwards.
Shows hes fallible. He knew Dooku quite well, and was also aware of the Dark Side growing in power. And the guy is Head of the Council, so he should have some kind of expertise in these matters.
No shit he's fallible. He's human. He is still a reliable source in this matter. As for you points, he hadn't talked to Dooku in decades I believe. There was no way he could have known about his conversion. And there are more darkside cults than the Sith running around the galaxy. A growth in the drakside doesn't automatically lead to a Sith uprising.
Mainly due to Anakin. Kenobi was not a threat on his own. And the seriously struggling against both is also contradicting the movie.
Thats only your interpretation.
Irrelevant. Dooku had to take on both Kenobi AND Anakin, the latter who defeated Dooku by himself.Whilst this fight is ROTS Kenobi vs Qui-Gon with help from young Obi-Wan.
So your point is that because Dooku, who you admit is vastly superior to Qui-Gon, managed to fight off both of them together then Qui-Gon can get through Kenobi's defences?
WTF?
Based on Maul being able to defeat QGJ in under a minute. So if Kenobi was a non factor then.......
Then.....? You do know he was toying with them right? He controlled the fight from beginning to the end.
Spoiler:
Up until Kenobi did his wonder flip thing at least.
Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
The movie sure as HELL doesn't show Dooku struggling at ALL w/ Kenobi in sabers, so... yeah.
Thats your interpretation. Character thoughts do not contradict what we see on screen. Therefore they are valid. Also you'll notice theres a cut between when he blocks Anakin and Kenobi together o when he's Force pushing Kenobi. All that needs to happen to make the story consistent is to assume that more time passed between cuts than is apparent.
Originally posted by NephthysIt's also worth mentioning that GG was only using two blades there. Clearly he wasn't fighting to the best of his ability.
Also he didn't beat Grievous:
Originally posted by Nephthys...Which is where the novel comes into play. 👆
Also you'll notice theres a cut between when he blocks Anakin and Kenobi together o when he's Force pushing Kenobi. All that needs to happen to make the story consistent is to assume that more time passed between cuts than is apparent.
'The electrodrivers that powered Grievous's limbs could move them faster than the human eye can see; when he swung his arm, it and his fist and the lightsaber within it would literally vanish: wiped from existence by sheer mind-numbing speed, an imitation quantum event. No human being could move remotely as fast as Grievous, not even Obi-Wan-but he didn't have to.'