The Avengers vs. The Dark Knight Rises (opening nite & wknd)

Started by spidermanrocks29 pages

I just wrote this in the Batman forum. I explain why I think TDKR contradicts a lot of stuff from BB and TDK and why I don't think it works as a Batman film.

Originally posted by spidermanrocks
Well, let's see...

1) Throughout TDK, Bruce was trying to look for a replacement for Batman. He found one in Harvey. Even went as far as to support his campaign in order to get Harvey to replace him. He wanted to find a replacement for Batman in order to be able to quit and to live a normal life with Rachel. Then the Joker comes in, corrupts Harvey, and brings him down to his level. He also tries corrupting Batman but fails at it. What Bruce learns from this is that there is no replacement for him. Despite how good a man can be, he can easily be corrupted by a higher class of criminals (a.k.a. supervillains) including Harvey. That is the reason why Harvey was corrupted and Batman wasn't. The reason Joker failed to corrupt Batman is because Bruce is "more than just a man" (going back to BB). With Harvey's fall, Bruce realized that he HAS to be Batman forever (no pun intended) and that there is no escape from this responsibility. Batman is the only force out there that can deal with types of criminals like the Joker and the life he wanted to have by quitting as Batman and having a family with his loved one (Rachel) was just an illusion. It's one of the most brilliant character arcs ever done with Batman IMO. TDKR was supposed to deal with those things. We should have seen a Bruce without illusions who is forced to cope with the reality that he has to be Batman forever and that there's no escape from that. But what does Nolan say? "F*ck that! Let's pretend like all that character development in TDK never happened! We'll just have him quit right after that night for no good reason whatsoever!" So him quitting pretty much destroyed the whole POINT of TDK. Gordon also says at the end of TDK "We must hunt him. Because he can take it." Well apparently, he can't take it since he quit right after that night and then shut himself in his home for 8 years. Up until the ending, TDKR dealt with Bruce having to realize that Batman is who he truly is and who he has to be forever despite him already realizing that at the end of TDK. And by the end of TDKR, he even quits being Batman and passes on the mantle to a rookie cop he barely knows that doesn't even have 1/8 of the skills required to be Batman. All this completely undercuts TDK and makes it not needed.

2) The ending (as well as some of the dialogue when Bruce is talking to Blake) contradicts everything from Batman Begins including the symbol aspect. In BB, Bruce Wayne wanted Batman to be a symbol in the sense that he will inspire people to stand up against corruption in a city that had more or less given up. He wanted to inspire hope. That's it. In TDK, we see how far certain individuals have gone and have taken what Batman said too literally. People were dressing up like Batman and had gotten themselves in to loads of trouble. Batman become pissed at those impostors because they were hurting themselves and what they were doing was NOT what the message he inspired. He wanted to inspire hope. Not for people to run around in masks and fight crime just because he could. He realized after the death of Harvey Dent that no one would be able to fully take his place. So long as a person knows how to get to you, you are weak. Look at Harvey. All of that is torn apart with TDKR. Now, Bruce believes than ANYONE can be Batman as long as they have a mask and good intentions. REALLY? Why in the world was he getting mad at the impostors from the 2nd movie? They had good intentions after all. To stop crime. We went from inspiring hope in a city filled with corruption to "YOU CAN BE BATMAN TOO IF YOU ARE GOOD!" Great way to kill the message.

And now I'm going to address some of the stuff I think you'll bring up to defend this movie since I heard other people bring them up:
1) "Batman wasn't needed during the 8 year gap because the Dent Act cleaned up the streets." Wrong. First, an act can't realistically just clean up the streets. There are always ways around acts like these. They're about as effective as a bill that illegalizes prostitution and the marijuana industry - meaning they're not too effective since people still have easy access to both those things without getting caught. Second, the act doesn't put an end to all crime. Just to organized crime, which means there are still TONS of criminals out there to be caught. Unorganized crime can sometimes be even more chaotic than organized crime because there is no one to hold Gotham's criminals by a "leash" and tell them where and when to act. They would need Batman more than ever if organized crime falls. Third, TDKR states Bruce quit being Batman right after he got home that night Harvey died. The act probably wasn't passed until much later so Batman was STILL needed for a while. And finally, Bruce became Batman so that he can prevent what happened to him from happening to anyone else. As long as there are SOME criminals left in Gotham, even if they've been reduced to a low number, he wouldn't give up the fight until Gotham is FULLY safe. And like I said before, Gotham being fully safe is unrealistically possible. Even NYC and Detroit, despite it being a lot safer than in the 80's, still has some pretty high crime rates.

2)"Bruce's spirit was broken at the end of TDK because he lost Rachel and the whole city was after him." Wrong again. Rachel's death would do the exact opposite of making him quit - it would make him keep going. Rachel was one of the obstacles that prevented him from fully accepting that there is no escape from Batman (in his mind). Rachel's death simply removed that obstacle and made him accept that reality. And the whole point of TDK is that Batman can HANDLE anything you throw at him, including being chased by the whole city and fighting the likes of Joker. Saying his spirit was broken because the city hates him completely contradicts that.

3) "Bruce passes on the legacy of Batman at the end to someone that he trusts and knows can carry it." The problem with that is that he barely even knows Blake and Blake is just a rookie cop. Keep in mind that rookie cops don't even have 1/4 of the skills required to be a professional cop and a professional cop doesn't even have 1/4 of the skills required to be Batman. Which means Blake doesn't even have 1/8 of the skills required to be Batman. I don't buy for a second that Bruce would pass on the legacy of Batman for at least a few more years and even if he did, I don't buy for a second that he would pass it on to a guy he barely knows with very little experience and even IF he did, I don't buy he wouldn't stay behind and train him.

Also, the ending to TDKR can be interpreted as being very anti-Batman. The reason why I say it's anti-Batman is because if you think about it, the message isn't that different from the usual stuff a lot of the Batman haters always say to discredit the character. "Any guy can become Batman! It's no big deal! All you need is to do a bit of push-ups and have access to technology! He's just James Bond in a Bat costume!"

That's not anti-batman that's PRO Batman.

Originally posted by spidermanrocks
Also, the ending to TDKR can be interpreted as being very anti-Batman. The reason why I say it's anti-Batman is because if you think about it, the message isn't that different from the usual stuff a lot of the Batman haters always say to discredit the character. "Any guy can become Batman! It's no big deal! All you need is to do a bit of push-ups and have access to technology! He's just James Bond in a Bat costume!"

That was the message from Batman Begins. The whole point of using a symbol like a Bat is that it could be Immortal. Live on forever, and not just die/retire with Bruce Wayne.

And I don't think in TDKR he meant literally any Tom, Dick, Harry could be Batman. But that the symbol of the Bat could inspire people to help set up the next Batman, someone with the Physical abilities, training, intellect, and backed up by wealth and resources. Most of all someone with the same commitment Bruce Wayne has.

Actually, from the three movies I got the message loud and clear that because Batman was a symbol, not a man, that ANYONE could be Batman.

That's why I liked the ending. I thought it fit perfectly with the themes Nolan had built up in these movies.

^ Thing is in BB he chose the Bat symbol because he wanted a symbol that will scare criminals. I doubt any Tom, Dick or Harry dressed up as a Bat would scare criminals.

So I do feel it was implied that it would be someone exceptional to always take up the cape. But the Symbol would "inspire" that to happen.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
^ Thing is in BB he chose the Bat symbol because he wanted a symbol that will scare criminals. I doubt any Tom, Dick or Harry dressed up as a Bat would scare criminals.

So I do feel it was implied that it would be someone exceptional to always take up the cape. But the Symbol would "inspire" that to happen.

I don't disagree with that.

It's not like the average Joe can just be Batman.

Well, TDKR has made more money that TASM all together. And is on pace to do 1B. Not too shabby.

I thought ASM would beat TDKR at the box-office.

I figured TDKR would beat ASM what I am surprised about is the hunger games is beating ASM...

Originally posted by BlackZero30x
I figured TDKR would beat ASM what I am surprised about is the hunger games is beating ASM...

ASM suffered from Rami's Spiderman 3. It's like when Batman Begin came out after Batman & Robin.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I don't disagree with that.

It's not like the average Joe can just be Batman.

Yeah, he's not going to just pick some random cop who has no real Batman training to replace him.

ASM sucked balls. It was lame lame lame.

I liked ASM about as much as I liked TDKR.

Which isn't a knock against TDKR.

I just really liked the new spider-man a lot.

Originally posted by Golgo13
Well, TDKR has made more money that TASM all together. And is on pace to do 1B. Not too shabby.

That should put to rest the theory that TDK only made that much money due to Heath's death.

Nolan's made Batman the the biggest solo selling hero on the big screen.

Spiderman's still no.2. TASM has beaten both the solo Iron Man movies.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
ASM suffered from Rami's Spiderman 3. It's like when Batman Begin came out after Batman & Robin.

It's still going to pass 700mill worldwide, which is Amazing for a reboot. Especially one so soon after the originals.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
That should put to rest the theory that TDK only made that much money due to Heath's death.

Nolan's made Batman the the biggest solo selling hero on the big screen.

Spiderman's still no.2. TASM has beaten both the solo Iron Man movies.

It's still going to pass 700mill worldwide, which is Amazing for a reboot. Especially one so soon after the originals.

Spider Man does have a great batting average, though; not accounting for inflation, each of the four films has done $800 million worldwide on average. But both characters are respectfully the flagship solo heroes for Marvel & DC, right now. Iron Man is currently third, but what's made his success so terrific is how unknown he was outside of comic circles - in comparison to the decades of media exposure Spider Man & Batman got elsewhere, prior to their movie series.

Originally posted by roughrider
Spider Man does have a great batting average, though; not accounting for inflation, each of the four films has done $800 million worldwide on average. But both characters are respectfully the flagship solo heroes for Marvel & DC, right now. Iron Man is currently third, but what's made his success so terrific is how unknown he was outside of comic circles - in comparison to the decades of media exposure Spider Man & Batman got elsewhere, prior to their movie series.

That's what a great movie will do to a character. It did wonders for Superman and Batman. Well, Batman had a TV show too. Marvel is doing it right by showcasing their heroes. This is my bet why the Guardians of the Galaxy are heading to the big screen. There's a lot of potential for this team and a lot of potential to branch out beyond the A list heroes. The GOTG has been popping up a different Marvel projects. Planet Hulk movie had brief cameos. MvC3 features Rocket as a playable character. As recent as Earth's Mightiest Heroes, the team shows up to fight the Avengers. Then there's also that upcoming return of the team in an Avengers book. Marvel is taking risks with B and C list heroes/team. Glad they're doing this.

Originally posted by SpaceMonkey
I thought TDKR was OK, as opposed to The Avengers just being plain awesome. I watched Avengers 5 times, TDKR just once. I have no plans on watching it again.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
TDK and BB were both superior to TDKR imho.

This. Rises is the weakest of the trilogies, Avengers is a far more entertaining movie.

And what in the hell was up with Batman's voice? It was just plain ridiculous at times, I couldn't stop laughing when Bane was choking him and later when he was screaming for the trigger. Just took me out of it completely along with other stupid bothersome things.

TDKR is tracking 31% ahead of TDK in foreign markets. And it still has China and other markets ahead of it. It will gross more than TDK and this is without the 3-D gimmick.

http://boxofficemojo.com/news/?id=3496&p=.htm

I'm Going With The Avengers 🙂