CISless Zoom vs Odin

I just get annoyed dealing with characters like Zoom in a vs. Format; powers involving ultra super speed and/or time travel. It's always the same argument: they will use their powers to end the fight before it even starts. AND YET, comics involving them last more than a single page, and somehow Zoom isn't running the DC multiverse because he's so unbeatable.
His powers don't make much sense against Flash anyway. He may be slowing time relative to himself when Flash chases him all over the state, but he still has to physically run(walk?) all over the state when it happens. I'd tire out quickly. How doesn't it make him hit any harder, too? They talk about his finger snaps being the equal of a punch from Superman, but all I saw it do was knock unconscious Wally's wife, not vaporize her.

Against Odin, I'm not taking anyone below the levels of Shazam or Cyttorak.

Give me a physical durability feat from Odin that compares to getting hit millions of times by Supes and I'll start taking the Odin is a skyfather BS with a little more levity.

Rationalizing that his regular punches get weaker exponentially is fine up to a certain point(not that I would even agree with the way your trying to portray it as) but when you try and turn that into an argument about his IMPS which always constantly increase it becomes stupid.

Odin's destructive capacity isn't an argument for him auto winning a fight where hes outmatched in speed and versatility.
Its like saying Galactus can kill the Phantom Stranger because his destructive capacity is greater.
Fallacious arguments that aren't getting you anywhere and just make this thread go in circles.

Odin wins

Originally posted by SasuOna
Give me a physical durability feat from Odin that compares to getting hit millions of times by Supes and I'll start taking the Odin is a skyfather BS with a little more levity.

Rationalizing that his regular punches get weaker exponentially is fine up to a certain point(not that I would even agree with the way your trying to portray it as) but when you try and turn that into an argument about his IMPS which always constantly increase it becomes stupid.

Odin's destructive capacity isn't an argument for him auto winning a fight where hes outmatched in speed and versatility.
Its like saying Galactus can kill the Phantom Stranger because his destructive capacity is greater.
Fallacious arguments that aren't getting you anywhere and just make this thread go in circles.

I don't get if you are arguing for or against Zoom.

Threads like this are why CIS Off threads are completely ridiculous.

Originally posted by Harbinger
Threads like this are why CIS Off threads are completely ridiculous.

^ Real world logic applied to comics FTW!

Originally posted by SasuOna
Give me a physical durability feat from Odin that compares to getting hit millions of times by Supes and I'll start taking the Odin is a skyfather BS with a little more levity.

Rationalizing that his regular punches get weaker exponentially is fine up to a certain point(not that I would even agree with the way your trying to portray it as) but when you try and turn that into an argument about his IMPS which always constantly increase it becomes stupid.

Odin's destructive capacity isn't an argument for him auto winning a fight where hes outmatched in speed and versatility.
Its like saying Galactus can kill the Phantom Stranger because his destructive capacity is greater.
Fallacious arguments that aren't getting you anywhere and just make this thread go in circles.

Originally posted by Harbinger
Threads like this are why CIS Off threads are completely ridiculous.

But that isn't the fault of a thread rule.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
But that isn't the fault of a thread rule.

^ Which has nothing to do with divorcing characters completely from the comics they appear in.

Unless you're suggesting that characters have never fought at their absolute best in a comic because they are ALWAYS forced, either by plot and/or restraint, to never show their best?

Thor's fought his best on-panel before. So has Surfer. So has Superman. So has Flash. So has pretty much every character with regular appearances. That shouldn't be arguable. What's even less arguable is that, at the very least, characters have performed at capacities very near to their best.

I'll take those performances as they're on-panel rather than assume in a blanket manner that there is simply no "absolute best" or "near absolute best" performance that exists within the four corners of a comic, so we "must conjure up some max powah" via streched imagination that resembles nothing in comics.

The latter is too overly convenient and ripe for double-standard ploys.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Which has nothing to do with divorcing characters completely from the comics they appear in.

Unless you're suggesting that characters have never fought at their absolute best in a comic because they are ALWAYS forced, either by plot and/or restraint, to never show their best?

Thor's fought his best on-panel before. So has Surfer. So has Superman. So has Flash. So has pretty much every character with regular appearances. That shouldn't be arguable. What's even less arguable is that, at the very least, characters have performed at capacities very near to their best.

I'll take those performances as they're on-panel rather than assume in a blanket manner that there is simply no "absolute best" or "near absolute best" performance that exists within the four corners of a comic, so we "must conjure up some max powah" via streched imagination that resembles nothing in comics.

The latter is too overly convenient and ripe for double-standard ploys.

So if that is also what you meant, then we are on the same page. If you disagree, I'm curious why..?

^ I agree with what you said for the most part. Not all "best feats" are game though. Some "best feats" are PIS also or a consequence of their opponents' CIS. "CIS off" Cap isn't punching out Savage Hulk anytime soon just because he did it once.

But what Harbinger is bemoaning is the trainwreck that "CIS off" speedster threads usually devolve into. And people keep acting like it's a direct (and intentional) consequence of the "CIS off" rule.

It's not. And I couldn't tell if you were disagreeing with that or not.

CIS doesn't work like that for most character but characters like FLash and Zoom have some really broken implications.

Originally posted by Uriel005
CIS doesn't work like that for most character but characters like FLash and Zoom have some really broken implications.

Originally posted by Newjak
A lot of high herald characters are like that tho

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ I agree with what you said for the most part. Not all "best feats" are game though. Some "best feats" are PIS also or a consequence of their opponents' CIS. "CIS off" Cap isn't punching out Savage Hulk anytime soon just because he did it once.

But what Harbinger is bemoaning is the trainwreck that "CIS off" speedster threads usually devolve into. And people keep acting like it's a direct (and intentional) consequence of the "CIS off" rule.

It's not. And I couldn't tell if you were disagreeing with that or not.

...But I really couldn't tell you if the points made in this thread are valid or not, as I haven't read any pages aside from this one.

People are claiming that Zoom can hit with the force of multiple galaxies, for starters.

Jesus. facepalm

Those people are going to do to Zoom what quanchi did to Thanos.

Originally posted by Galan007
In some cases, you're right - ex. just because Superman saved the omniverse by vibrating one time, doesn't mean he'll ever do it again. However, I think as long as the 'points' made regarding speedsters are provable (and by "provable", I mean they can be substantiated by on panel showings), then there is no reason to doubt their validity.

...But I really couldn't tell you if the points made in this thread are valid or not, as I haven't read any pages aside from this one.

The stips of this fight make Zoom viable against Odin. Odin can't time manip nor can he boom the field which would work on zoom as his abilities don't give him a pass on omnidirectional blasts nor does he have something that lets him overcome something with greater time manips than himself. However taking the two away from Odin makes him able to hit without pause. For the most part he is shown to be able to deck most heralds and some of them are very high on a durability.