Final Destination [Maximum] Vol.9 Bowser X Kain

Originally posted by The Scenario
Raziel doesn't cut very deep. Just look at his attack animation: it's a small swipe with each claw. That's hardly something that can bisect anyone, much less a vampire that regenerate surface wounds.

You seriously don't believe that the staffs is a melee weapon? Let's see how well this ranged theory holds up against melee, then, shall we?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMBp3prbh1E#t=55s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7KgK6tOn3o#t=7m40s

Ok, the first video is the staffs used, second video is a guy holding the only known ranged weapon of the Human Citadel. By your argument, they are fitting a staff taller than a man in a ranged weapon roughly the size of a man's arm. I just have to ask, though: if the Human Citadel is currently using these staffs as ammunition, why don't I see them? There is no staff in that launcher. That guard is apparently walking around with an empty weapon and no ammo, at least as far your claim is concerned. Personally, I don't see where he would carry staffs of that size. If you want to convince me that a staff is ammo for a ranged weapon, you're going to need some extraordinary evidence.

Especially since I finally found a wielder for it that fits better than the Sarafan.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uWgEsSJLwo#t=4m15s

Turns out the wiki was right, those staffs are one of the primary weapons of the vampire hunters. That confirms that the vampire hunters are the ones that killed the Dumahim, not the Human Citadel. Though, since the Dumahim were already evolved at that point, there's not a huge window of time for that to have happened in.

1. Assuming vampires exist, the rifle may be less useful than a something to stake a vampire with. Though, while you're at it, why don't you ask him if he'll try to load that rifle with a six foot length of pipe? I'm sure you'd get a similar response.

2. Yes, I'm assuming that something designed to fire arrows or bolts will have trouble with something six feet long and apparently metal. I don't even care about this point anymore since I already found the real answer, but humor me. Why don't you prove that the launcher can fire these staffs?

3. As it turns out, no. I have the weapon, the group, and proof of it being used in melee. You have a theory about a ranged weapon with nothing supporting it. It's pretty much over. Plus we're both idiots for missing the Elder God outright stating that vampire hunters did it.

4. Which ones are dead without wounds? All I see are some that are piles of bones or missing huge pieces. In any case, here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMBp3prbh1E#t=5m35s

There's one of the Dumahim killed by immersion in water, and back as a revived vampire. Completely identical to the current Dumahim, as seen here. Since we have now confirmed that vampire hunters are behind it, and that the Dumahim were evolved at the time of the attack, that answers the question. Humans killed the Dumahim in melee.

5. Is there any evidence of enchanted weapons? No? Well, then, I see no reason to assume that there are any enchanted weapons.

Yes, though Kain was recovered by the time Raziel finally got around to stabbing him. Raziel, on the other hand, was actually fading in and out and being absorbed into the Reaver, that's hardly "just dropping to his knees." He was literally starting to disappear, he was the much weaker one at that point.

You base your counter on an attack animation? 😐 you dont understand how thousands of tons of energy is being transfered it seems.

We cant actually see any ammo, the weapon being small as I said is not really a counter for anything.

Vampire hunters no longer exist, now it seems to make sense why Dumah says "centuries in limbo", hes been there since long before they evolved since vampire hunters have not been around for hundreds, if not thousands of years.

1. So your claim is that the Citadel use rifles? makes the whole "rather use spears" rubbish even worse, if they have guns AND flamethrowers.

2. Not sure if it was designed just to fire arrows or bolts, take a musket for example, or a blunderbuss, it could fire almost anything you fit in the tube. Considering a pole can fit in a crossbow/bow regardless of its size, I dont see the problem.

3. It also proves the vampires were not evolved at the time, vampire hunters were phased out eons ago. And no its not the same weapon, your much closer than before with your Sarafan example but its not the same.

4. Evidence suggests they were not evolved at the time of the attack though, since Vampire hunters no longer exist in Nosgoth in Raziels era.

Further, I asked for evidence that the ones in your "dumahs fortress" video were alike to evolved Dumahim, since looking at the video they appear to be different, show me a close up to prove some points.

Not sure about recovered, the wound Raziel was able to inflict implies he was internally damaged by the strike, not just externally.

Originally posted by Burning thought
You base your counter on an attack animation? 😐 you dont understand how thousands of tons of energy is being transfered it seems.

Well, that's mostly because there isn't any huge energy transfer in evidence, but I'm just humoring you. I could ask why none of the vampires or humans he hits go flying or why he can't throw a vampire more than 3 meters or so, but I won't, because his cutscenes are sufficient. All I'm saying is that Raziel has never torn anything apart ever, not even humans or dogs.

We cant actually see any ammo, the weapon being small as I said is not really a counter for anything.

Oh, you think the guard is walking around unarmed? You claimed they were using staffs as ammo, and I expect you to prove this. You have a small ranged weapon, please show me the ammo.

Vampire hunters no longer exist, now it seems to make sense why Dumah says "centuries in limbo", hes been there since long before they evolved since vampire hunters have not been around for hundreds, if not thousands of years.

Half right, but the Dumah and Dumah himself had already evolved by the time the attack took place, as I've already shown. Can you prove that the vampire hunters were wiped out thousands of years ago? The evidence suggests that they were around at least until after the Dumahim evolved.

1. So your claim is that the Citadel use rifles? makes the whole "rather use spears" rubbish even worse, if they have guns AND flamethrowers.

2. Not sure if it was designed just to fire arrows or bolts, take a musket for example, or a blunderbuss, it could fire almost anything you fit in the tube. Considering a pole can fit in a crossbow/bow regardless of its size, I dont see the problem.

3. It also proves the vampires were not evolved at the time, vampire hunters were phased out eons ago. And no its not the same weapon, your much closer than before with your Sarafan example but its not the same.

4. Evidence suggests they were not evolved at the time of the attack though, since Vampire hunters no longer exist in Nosgoth in Raziels era.

Further, I asked for evidence that the ones in your "dumahs fortress" video were alike to evolved Dumahim, since looking at the video they appear to be different, show me a close up to prove some points.

1. Reading comprehension. I think you had some trouble understanding what I was saying, since you were the one that first brought up an armed security guard with a carbine rifle, and you suggested asking if he'd trade the gun for a sharp stick. I assumed you were trying to make a point, so I responded to it with the same modern example. No one said anything about the Human Citadel using guns, I think you just confused your argument with an example you were using. In any case, no, the Human Citadel does not have guns until you prove otherwise, and I still think that trading your weapon for a staff is just as stupid as trying to fire a staff out of that weapon. Just in case it wasn't clear, I think #1 is incredibly stupid. What I'm doing right now is comparing it to #2, because both if them are stupid beyond human imagination.

2. You don't see the problem with that? Seriously? For one, that would absolutely kill any range the weapon might have had before due to the weight of the round, and destroy any hope of accuracy on (for the musket, say) an already inaccurate weapon. Not to mention it's be much weaker. Yes, maybe you could fit a staff on a crossbow, but it's terrible for combat. Assuming it's meant for arrows, the first thing that heavy staff is going to do is plow itself into the ground. No, maybe the second thing, since just putting it in there will increase the weapon's weight to the point it's impossible to aim, since there would be no way to hold it steady with human strength. Then you run into the problem of ammo storage. Where the heck are you keeping the staffs? They are the size of a man and have prongs on them. Just carrying them on your back would tire you out extremely quickly, and it would take forever to actually load a shot. Not to mention there is no evidence of anyone in Nosgoth using staffs like this, whereas I have already proven that the vampire hunters use them in melee.

3. No, in actuality we have evidence that the vampires were already evolved, which I have already shown you. The revived vampire (and dead ones) in Dumah's fortress is identical to the current Dumahim, and Dumahim himself has quite clearly evolved. Further, the weapon of the vampire hunters is identical to that used to kill the Dumahim. Not even similar, these are the same exact thing.

4. Evidence suggests that the vampires were already evolved before that era, since the vampire hunters killed a clan of evolved vampires and an evolved Dumah. Do you get this? Dumah was evolved. That's all I really need.

The only difference in the video I showed you is that it was a revived vampire. Otherwise, it was still an adult Dumahim, already evolved. But again, all I need is Dumah, who is confirmed to be evolved already.

Not sure about recovered, the wound Raziel was able to inflict implies he was internally damaged by the strike, not just externally.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yH0r5j4s6dA#t=3m15s

Look again. Kain is much more worried about Raziel, who is literally disappearing in front of him. Kain is fine right up until Raziel rips his heart out.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Well, that's mostly because there isn't any huge energy transfer in evidence, but I'm just humoring you. I could ask why none of the vampires or humans he hits go flying or why he can't throw a vampire more than 3 meters or so, but I won't, because his cutscenes are sufficient. All I'm saying is that Raziel has never torn anything apart ever, not even humans or dogs.

Oh, you think the guard is walking around unarmed? You claimed they were using staffs as ammo, and I expect you to prove this. You have a small ranged weapon, please show me the ammo.

Half right, but the Dumah and Dumah himself had already evolved by the time the attack took place, as I've already shown. Can you prove that the vampire hunters were wiped out thousands of years ago? The evidence suggests that they were around at least until after the Dumahim evolved.

1. Reading comprehension. I think you had some trouble understanding what I was saying, since you were the one that first brought up an armed security guard with a carbine rifle, and you suggested asking if he'd trade the gun for a sharp stick. I assumed you were trying to make a point, so I responded to it with the same modern example. No one said anything about the Human Citadel using guns, I think you just confused your argument with an example you were using. In any case, no, the Human Citadel does not have guns until you prove otherwise, and I still think that trading your weapon for a staff is just as stupid as trying to fire a staff out of that weapon. Just in case it wasn't clear, I think #1 is incredibly stupid. What I'm doing right now is comparing it to #2, because both if them are stupid beyond human imagination.

2. You don't see the problem with that? Seriously? For one, that would absolutely kill any range the weapon might have had before due to the weight of the round, and destroy any hope of accuracy on (for the musket, say) an already inaccurate weapon. Not to mention it's be much weaker. Yes, maybe you could fit a staff on a crossbow, but it's terrible for combat. Assuming it's meant for arrows, the first thing that heavy staff is going to do is plow itself into the ground. No, maybe the second thing, since just putting it in there will increase the weapon's weight to the point it's impossible to aim, since there would be no way to hold it steady with human strength. Then you run into the problem of ammo storage. Where the heck are you keeping the staffs? They are the size of a man and have prongs on them. Just carrying them on your back would tire you out extremely quickly, and it would take forever to actually load a shot. Not to mention there is no evidence of anyone in Nosgoth using staffs like this, whereas I have already proven that the vampire hunters use them in melee.

3. No, in actuality we have evidence that the vampires were already evolved, which I have already shown you. The revived vampire (and dead ones) in Dumah's fortress is identical to the current Dumahim, and Dumahim himself has quite clearly evolved. Further, the weapon of the vampire hunters is identical to that used to kill the Dumahim. Not even similar, these are the same exact thing.

4. Evidence suggests that the vampires were already evolved before that era, since the vampire hunters killed a clan of evolved vampires and an evolved Dumah. Do you get this? Dumah was evolved. That's all I really need.

The only difference in the video I showed you is that it was a revived vampire. Otherwise, it was still an adult Dumahim, already evolved. But again, all I need is Dumah, who is confirmed to be evolved already.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yH0r5j4s6dA#t=3m15s

Look again. Kain is much more worried about Raziel, who is literally disappearing in front of him. Kain is fine right up until Raziel rips his heart out.

Gameplay mechanics, you could ask the same for Kratos, Dante or Bowser. Your case is not really based on anything.

No, but A) I never said those projectiles are the only amunition he can use and B) I could probably make a long list of chracters who do not appear to be carrying all their equipment on the character model, Link is one of them.

Prove it, you cant prove what evolutionary stage any of them were in at the time of death, and have yet to show me Dumahim snapshots from the scene your talking about proving their the same. A) No vampire hunters in Soul reaver, which is the game were discussing, B) Humans are "domesticated" and live in a "solitary citadel". Your assuming that when the Elder God states "vampire hunters" he refers to a specific organisation not generel humans who kill/hunt vamps, interestingly the humans in the citadel are mentioned as Soul reaver era vamp hunters.

1. Your counter was "try and load a rifle with 6 foot spear", therefore unless your trying to make a point that they use rifles or something alike then your talking nonsense. I think all your claims are stupid, infact most suggestions concering it are stupid, very little to no facts actually.

2. Who cares about accuracy? the Vampires were taken by surprise so the humans had all the time in the world to aim. So the weapon has more force than a crossbow, sort of adds up considering it can fire these projectiles with enough power to make holes in these durable vamps according to you. Tbh, considering the evidence, they were soft vamps, not yet evolved. Well, youve simply pointed out vampire hunters years ago used a similiar "weapon", although they use the two prongs on the end, not the pointed spike. Sort of also outlines how this was likely a launched weapon, as your accounts suggest aimiliar weapons have prongs to be used as weapons.

3. No youve not, when? you have nothing to suggest they were evolved at time of death. Cant be exact, their a different shape, the prongs are more curved and have an extra attachement in the middle. The fact is also that the sharper end is the primary weapon, the back prongs look like air fins for flight.

4. How do you know Dumah was evolved? All we know is hes evolved now....

Missed point, show me the actual "walkthrough 28" Dumahim in a snapshot, looking at it I dont see the comparison to a Dumahim adult. Who look different. Also, your simply showing my earlier example of vamps revivied even from death from water which dissolves them, their at full efficency and can regen after. However, the vamps you show before killed by humans (not water), many did not have spears in them or any obvious reason of death. Know what else could not revive after being killed normally? earlier vampires....

Him being worried about Raziel does not make his wounds disapear, you can see Kain was in pain when Raziel despite weakened pushes against him in and he moans in pain. Both of them at max efficency and you get the following when Raziel pushes against Kain (and strikes him);

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jws63E9dNN8#t=2m10s

Nothing, he just continues speaking ANd this is after several super powered strikes from Raziel, you know the sort that would turn Bowser to liquid compared to weak Kain;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMIHjCmFeNk#t=7m25s

Kain is so weak, he cant take Raziel knocking into him without gasping. Sort of outlines even further how devastatingly powerful the Soul reaver is.

PS- Although Elder God identifies the source of their deaths, Raziel identifies timing, e.g. he points out that Kain had them killed like he did Raziels clan. This implies they were dead before evolution.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Gameplay mechanics, you could ask the same for Kratos, Dante or Bowser. Your case is not really based on anything.

You're trying to use them as evidence for some reason, though, which is confusing me. Just because Raziel can't tear something apart in-game, it does not mean he can't in canon. The simple fact, however, s that Raziel never tries, so you basically have no case.

No, but A) I never said those projectiles are the only amunition he can use and B) I could probably make a long list of chracters who do not appear to be carrying all their equipment on the character model, Link is one of them.

Prove it, you cant prove what evolutionary stage any of them were in at the time of death, and have yet to show me Dumahim snapshots from the scene your talking about proving their the same. A) No vampire hunters in Soul reaver, which is the game were discussing, B) Humans are "domesticated" and live in a "solitary citadel". Your assuming that when the Elder God states "vampire hunters" he refers to a specific organisation not generel humans who kill/hunt vamps, interestingly the humans in the citadel are mentioned as Soul reaver era vamp hunters.

'k, then you're not making much sense. What is your actual claim? Those staffs are not shown to be used in the way you are describing, so any other ammunition is totally irrelevant, and Link does, in fact, show how he uses his weapons. Why don't you show me a Citadel Guard using the weapon in the way you describe, then? The way you're claiming it, it should be easy. But no, they don't use it like that, because I'm fairly certain you just made it up.

BT, I hope you realize that you are asking for evidence that I already gave you. I may not have used pictures, but this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMBp3prbh1E#t=5m35s

Is evidence of a dead Dumahim inside the fortress, after it has been killed by water and then turned into a revived vampire. Compare it to this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRaLJ4caPtI

This one being a living, evolved Dumahim. As you can see, they are identical. That right there is enough to prove that the Dumahim were killed after they evolved. I see no reason to assume that the Dumahim had to evolve after the vampire hunters were wiped out. The weapons seen impaling the Dumahim were the weapons used by a known group of vampire hunters, so evidence suggests they were the ones using them, unless you believe the Human Citadel was using a weapon they aren't shown to have.

1. Your counter was "try and load a rifle with 6 foot spear", therefore unless your trying to make a point that they use rifles or something alike then your talking nonsense. I think all your claims are stupid, infact most suggestions concering it are stupid, very little to no facts actually.

2. Who cares about accuracy? the Vampires were taken by surprise so the humans had all the time in the world to aim. So the weapon has more force than a crossbow, sort of adds up considering it can fire these projectiles with enough power to make holes in these durable vamps according to you. Tbh, considering the evidence, they were soft vamps, not yet evolved. Well, youve simply pointed out vampire hunters years ago used a similiar "weapon", although they use the two prongs on the end, not the pointed spike. Sort of also outlines how this was likely a launched weapon, as your accounts suggest aimiliar weapons have prongs to be used as weapons.

3. No youve not, when? you have nothing to suggest they were evolved at time of death. Cant be exact, their a different shape, the prongs are more curved and have an extra attachement in the middle. The fact is also that the sharper end is the primary weapon, the back prongs look like air fins for flight.

4. How do you know Dumah was evolved? All we know is hes evolved now....

1. Look, this is very simple. You said this:

1. Ofc its impossible, give humanity some credit.... You know next time I see an armed security guard I will try and trade him a sharp stick for his assault carbine rifle, see what happens.

You went for a modern analogy, and compared a crossbow to a rifle. I simply continued the example, namely that trying to put a spear in a rifle will have the same results as trying to put one in a crossbow. You're trying to turn this into something else, and it's an interesting effort, but it's just not going to work, so sorry about that. Just to be clear, the Human Citadel does not have rifles, and trying to put a staff into a crossbow is still a stupid idea.

2. Accuracy matters pretty well when the moment you fire your ammo angles itself right into the ground. Wait, when did I say this could even hurt vampires? I'm of the opinion that this is a horrible weapon unfit for killing humans, or at least your ranged version is. The staff is shown to have two prongs on one end, and a single point on the other, so it really works best in melee, because that design could not possibly work in a ranged weapon. Can you prove that it's more powerful than a crossbow, even? Right now, I'm not seeing it.

3. Look again, the revived Dumahim and the living Dumahim are identical, therefore they are at the same level of evolution, meaning they were evolved at the time of death. Further, the staffs that the vampire hunters are shown using are identical to those impaling the Dumahim, in addition to the Elder God confirming that vampire hunters killed them. Evidence suggests they evolved before they were killed.

4. He was evolved at the time he was killed, like all the others.

Missed point, show me the actual "walkthrough 28" Dumahim in a snapshot, looking at it I dont see the comparison to a Dumahim adult. Who look different. Also, your simply showing my earlier example of vamps revivied even from death from water which dissolves them, their at full efficency and can regen after. However, the vamps you show before killed by humans (not water), many did not have spears in them or any obvious reason of death. Know what else could not revive after being killed normally? earlier vampires....

Not sure what you're talking about. All the dead Dumahim in the fortress would have been killed at the time of the attack, so the one in the water is at the same stage of evolution as all the other dead ones. Since they're all identical to current Dumahim, it means they were killed after they evolved. Ok, you've said that there were vampires without obvious cause of death, yet I don't see any. Which ones, and where are they?

Him being worried about Raziel does not make his wounds disapear, you can see Kain was in pain when Raziel despite weakened pushes against him in and he moans in pain. Both of them at max efficency and you get the following when Raziel pushes against Kain (and strikes him);

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jws63E9dNN8#t=2m10s

Nothing, he just continues speaking ANd this is after several super powered strikes from Raziel, you know the sort that would turn Bowser to liquid compared to weak Kain;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMIHjCmFeNk#t=7m25s

Kain is so weak, he cant take Raziel knocking into him without gasping. Sort of outlines even further how devastatingly powerful the Soul reaver is.

I didn't see any wounds on Kain before Raziel impales him. In your first video, Raziel is a best scratching or punching, and fails to even try killing Kain in favor of letting him talk. Bowser, being so much stronger than Raziel, would still tear Kain apart there. The second video has Raziel actually trying to kill Kain. Notice how Kain wasn't in any pain after Raziel started being absorbed? He's hardly weakened, yet Raziel can't even stand up, that's a terrible feat for Kain. Bowser would annihilate him.

PS- Although Elder God identifies the source of their deaths, Raziel identifies timing, e.g. he points out that Kain had them killed like he did Raziels clan. This implies they were dead before evolution.

Raziel evolved before Kain killed him. If you forget, the reason Kain wiped them out is because they evolved wings. In any case, Raziel was wrong, so what does it matter?

Originally posted by The Scenario
You're trying to use them as evidence for some reason, though, which is confusing me. Just because Raziel can't tear something apart in-game, it does not mean he can't in canon. The simple fact, however, s that Raziel never tries, so you basically have no case.

'k, then you're not making much sense. What is your actual claim? Those staffs are not shown to be used in the way you are describing, so any other ammunition is totally irrelevant, and Link does, in fact, show how he uses his weapons. Why don't you show me a Citadel Guard using the weapon in the way you describe, then? The way you're claiming it, it should be easy. But no, they don't use it like that, because I'm fairly certain you just made it up.

BT, I hope you realize that you are asking for evidence that I already gave you. I may not have used pictures, but this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMBp3prbh1E#t=5m35s

Is evidence of a dead Dumahim inside the fortress, after it has been killed by water and then turned into a revived vampire. Compare it to this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRaLJ4caPtI

This one being a living, evolved Dumahim. As you can see, they are identical. That right there is enough to prove that the Dumahim were killed after they evolved. I see no reason to assume that the Dumahim had to evolve after the vampire hunters were wiped out. The weapons seen impaling the Dumahim were the weapons used by a known group of vampire hunters, so evidence suggests they were the ones using them, unless you believe the Human Citadel was using a weapon they aren't shown to have.

1. Look, this is very simple. You said this:

You went for a modern analogy, and compared a crossbow to a rifle. I simply continued the example, namely that trying to put a spear in a rifle will have the same results as trying to put one in a crossbow. You're trying to turn this into something else, and it's an interesting effort, but it's just not going to work, so sorry about that. Just to be clear, the Human Citadel does not have rifles, and trying to put a staff into a crossbow is still a stupid idea.

2. Accuracy matters pretty well when the moment you fire your ammo angles itself right into the ground. Wait, when did I say this could even hurt vampires? I'm of the opinion that this is a horrible weapon unfit for killing humans, or at least your ranged version is. The staff is shown to have two prongs on one end, and a single point on the other, so it really works best in melee, because that design could not possibly work in a ranged weapon. Can you prove that it's more powerful than a crossbow, even? Right now, I'm not seeing it.

3. Look again, the revived Dumahim and the living Dumahim are identical, therefore they are at the same level of evolution, meaning they were evolved at the time of death. Further, the staffs that the vampire hunters are shown using are identical to those impaling the Dumahim, in addition to the Elder God confirming that vampire hunters killed them. Evidence suggests they evolved before they were killed.

4. He was evolved at the time he was killed, like all the others.

Not sure what you're talking about. All the dead Dumahim in the fortress would have been killed at the time of the attack, so the one in the water is at the same stage of evolution as all the other dead ones. Since they're all identical to current Dumahim, it means they were killed after they evolved. Ok, you've said that there were vampires without obvious cause of death, yet I don't see any. Which ones, and where are they?

I didn't see any wounds on Kain before Raziel impales him. In your first video, Raziel is a best scratching or punching, and fails to even try killing Kain in favor of letting him talk. Bowser, being so much stronger than Raziel, would still tear Kain apart there. The second video has Raziel actually trying to kill Kain. Notice how Kain wasn't in any pain after Raziel started being absorbed? He's hardly weakened, yet Raziel can't even stand up, that's a terrible feat for Kain. Bowser would annihilate him.

Raziel evolved before Kain killed him. If you forget, the reason Kain wiped them out is because they [b]evolved wings. In any case, Raziel was wrong, so what does it matter? [/B]

You keep trying to side step the evidence here, fact being if Raziel could in canon, he would not canonically go from simply using his claws to looking for other, far more complicated and time consuming measures based on the environment. I am pretty certain if I could beat a guy with my bare hands with ease, I would not be looking around for a gun or a knife while claiming I "have to change my tactics" to suit my opponent.

Neither are they shown in the way your describing, fact is mine is more likely/theoretically possible. A crossbow/harpoon gun variant from future humans that can shoot these things is more likely than humans meleeing with the vamps. Reading comprehension, I said Link does not show every one of his weapons on his in-game model at once. Same reason you cant show me a citadel guard with a spear or anyone fighting evolved vamps with spears.

Your missing the point on purpose I hope? I am trying to get you to find evidence that those who were speared by humans were not evolved, we dont know when those inside the fortress or inside the water were killed, nor are those two examples proving your claim.

First reading comprehension then a flaw in your visual comprehension/observation. Those "staffs" as you dub them are not even identicle;

4 prongs, central prong, seriously your trying to claim any weapon with a shaft alike to a spear is exactly the same as all other spears.

But it wont have the same result, theoretically you could, given a strong enough force launch the spear. You sort of missed the point, e.g. I was talking about behaviour of people generally, their not going to use far lesser weapons. The more I look at the human device, it looks like a speargun anyway, not a crossbow.

2. Its proven by the fact it can pierce Dumahim.....what other evidence do you need?

3. Missed point again, I am talking about you proving that the Dumahim were evolved before they were killed.

4. Prove it? For all you know, either of us know he died while in this form along with his brood;

Considering evidence suggests there are no vamp hunters (of your description) in the Soul reaver era when Raziel arises thousands of years later.

😆 How do you know all this at all? how do you know he died at the same time? Thats what I am asking for, i want you to show me a print screen comparison of the two, I am not seeing the "identicle" part. Although considering your above obervational flaws I should probably have to do all the work myself.

Hes doing far more at full strength, even leaping into the assulat with anger. Bowser cant, at best evidence suggests he can draw blood...at best, of course I think the shudders of physical force would kill him then Kain would just laugh and devour his soul. Nothings hitting him while Raziels being absorbed, why should he be in constant pain? clearly vamps have incredible endurance but we already see more than enough. Try using evidence rather than posting a blind and ignorant absolute, based on evidence Bowser would kill himself, he cant necesserily take the forces on his own body when Kains flesh impedes him. Not that Kain wont kill him in a slice anyway since his best feat is the 6k ton ball, vs Kains star core durability, I lold.

Well your wrong on most of these accounts, if your under the belief Kain tossed Raziel into the abyss and killed his clan just because he was sore Raziel gained wins then your miles behind in the storyline (which makes sense, considering ignorance on the games) but more importantly, Raziel was wrong concerning who killed them, the Elder God did not correct Raziels belief in time.

Originally posted by Burning thought
You keep trying to side step the evidence here, fact being if Raziel could in canon, he would not canonically go from simply using his claws to looking for other, far more complicated and time consuming measures based on the environment. I am pretty certain if I could beat a guy with my bare hands with ease, I would not be looking around for a gun or a knife while claiming I "have to change my tactics" to suit my opponent.

Please show me Raziel tearing an opponent apart. This will be to set a precedent for Raziel tearing things apart, and will be compared to any instance where he does not tear something apart. For instance, Link is just as strong as Raziel, but his strikes can be stopped by a wooden shield in gameplay, and he has use more complicated measures and tactics. Until you have an argument that doesn't rely on game mechanics and a character not doing something they've never done before, you don't have much.

Neither are they shown in the way your describing, fact is mine is more likely/theoretically possible. A crossbow/harpoon gun variant from future humans that can shoot these things is more likely than humans meleeing with the vamps. Reading comprehension, I said Link does not show every one of his weapons on his in-game model at once. Same reason you cant show me a citadel guard with a spear or anyone fighting evolved vamps with spears.

Yes, they are shown being used. I showed you them being used.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uWgEsSJLwo#t=4m15s

Right there. You have yet to give any evidence for your theory, while mine practically proves itself. Humans melee with vampires all the time, do you forget how Umah died? The fact you're ignoring is that vampires don't curbstomp humans, and throughout the series humans have won in melee. Just look again at the success of the Sarafan. Humans fight vampires in melee all the time, and still manage to win. Now please show me anyone trying to shoot a staff out of a ranged weapon.

Your missing the point on purpose I hope? I am trying to get you to find evidence that those who were speared by humans were not evolved, we dont know when those inside the fortress or inside the water were killed, nor are those two examples proving your claim.

They would have been killed at the same time as the ones that were impaled had been. See again: humans killed them. They actually have already proven my claim, seeing as the dead one are identical to the live ones. Since the live ones are known to be evolved, this logically means that the dead ones (i.e: those killed by humans) were also evolved. There, proven.

First reading comprehension then a flaw in your visual comprehension/observation. Those "staffs" as you dub them are not even identicle;

4 prongs, central prong, seriously your trying to claim any weapon with a shaft alike to a spear is exactly the same as all other spears.

Take another look at the vampire hunters. Please.

But it wont have the same result, theoretically you could, given a strong enough force launch the spear. You sort of missed the point, e.g. I was talking about behaviour of people generally, their not going to use far lesser weapons. The more I look at the human device, it looks like a speargun anyway, not a crossbow.

So was I, you were missing my point. What security guard is going to put a sharpened stick in his rifle and try to shoot it? In the same vein, who is going to put a staff in a crossbow? It's just a stupid idea.

2. Its proven by the fact it can pierce Dumahim.....what other evidence do you need?

Dumahim are easy to pierce, though, like any other LoK vampire. You just need to prove it was a ranged weapon, instead of the melee that humans are known for.

3. Missed point again, I am talking about you proving that the Dumahim were evolved before they were killed.

And I already did. Stop ignoring it and pretending I haven't presented evidence.

4. Prove it? For all you know, either of us know he died while in this form along with his brood.

Evidence that vampires can evolve after they die? Unless you have that, the evidence indicates that he died in the form he was revived in.

Considering evidence suggests there are no vamp hunters (of your description) in the Soul reaver era when Raziel arises thousands of years later.

Elder God already stated that the Dumahim were killed by vampire hunters. You can't deny this one.

😆 How do you know all this at all? how do you know he died at the same time? Thats what I am asking for, i want you to show me a print screen comparison of the two, I am not seeing the "identicle" part. Although considering your above obervational flaws I should probably have to do all the work myself.

I showed you the video comparison, and that is enough to satisfy the burden of proof. You're asking for something I already gave you, please don't ignore it.

Hes doing far more at full strength, even leaping into the assulat with anger. Bowser cant, at best evidence suggests he can draw blood...at best, of course I think the shudders of physical force would kill him then Kain would just laugh and devour his soul. Nothings hitting him while Raziels being absorbed, why should he be in constant pain? clearly vamps have incredible endurance but we already see more than enough. Try using evidence rather than posting a blind and ignorant absolute, based on evidence Bowser would kill himself, he cant necesserily take the forces on his own body when Kains flesh impedes him. Not that Kain wont kill him in a slice anyway since his best feat is the 6k ton ball, vs Kains star core durability, I lold.

Who was? Raziel? Yes, we have already established that a severely weakened Raziel pierced a recovered Kain. Based on that, Bowser would cut him in half with one claw, what with his size. Especially since Kain was absorbing Raziel's soul, so he won't be as strong when he fight's bowser. I already am using evidence, and I don't appreciate you ignoring it at every turn. Bowser's strength and durability are far superior to Kain's, given that Bowser has already been at the core of a real star, followed by its supernova and black hole. What has Kain got? He got pierced by some claws 2o times weaker than Bowser.

Well your wrong on most of these accounts, if your under the belief Kain tossed Raziel into the abyss and killed his clan just because he was sore Raziel gained wins then your miles behind in the storyline (which makes sense, considering ignorance on the games) but more importantly, Raziel was wrong concerning who killed them, the Elder God did not correct Raziels belief in time.

Are you saying Raziel wasn't evolved? In that case, you'd be wrong again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMTasRHZTcM#t=1m53s

Raziel outright states that all of them were evolved at that point, so it looks like I know the games a bit better than you do. Heck, saying says they had some evolutions even before the wings. Where does Raziel even say the time, not that it matters? Elder God corrected him, we know humans killed them after they evolved, so this is pretty much over.

I've done enough to satisfy the burden of proof, for myself and likely anyone but you. Sorry, but I'm done with this thread.

Originally posted by The Scenario

Were not talking about gameplay at all, were talking about canon pointing out raziel has to look for other avenues of attack to defeat entities who according to you, also in canon can be sliced up by Raziels claws. The canon says otherwise, because he would not use different tactics.

Not the same weapon, time period or opponent, you cant grab a random shaft/spear from any point in history and claim its evidence. I am not running about doing all the screenshots so I suggest you show me evidence to suggest those Vamp hunters are not using a single shaft with only two prongs, and showing the four prong+central spike staff in Soul reaver. Are you forgetting Umah was a single, weak, non evolved vampire women?

Again, no argument and just another claim without proof as if you ignored me altogether. Your subtle, passive insults and lack of arguments are becoming common place it seems. Theres no evidence to suggest they were evolved "centuries" ago....

I did, the spears look nothing alike, their only comparison is their both spearlike.

The object in question is just a larger object than the typical crossbow would usually fire, nothing stupid tbh, but funny coming from someone who thinks humans can beat evolved vampires hand to hand despite them being thoughly domesticated by vamps before.

Raziels star core pressure claws dont think so, infact they think he needs to find other ways rather than simple melee to finish them off. So what chance does a human have? with his measly strength?

3. 😆 youve shown one vamp dead by spears, another by water and claim this somehow proves they were evolved centuries ago, what BS, comprehension; zero.

I knew you would ask this, why would I need evidence that they evolve after I die? First of all their corruption and therefore evolution as we have dubbed it is purely spiritual which is very much in "existance" and second, their bodies are dead anyway so any argument trying to claim they have ot be "alive" to change is absurd. Not that I have to prove anything, the constant fact is they evolve over time, until theres evidence of the contary I dont see any canon barrier to them being speared having a difference.

He did not say when, or how though did he? your also making a general belief that the EG was talking about a specific organisation, the humans in the citadel on the LoK wiki are pointed out as being the vampire hunters of the period. Theres no hunters after Raziels awakening.

You showed me bugger all, you showed a video that you have claimed covers everything your argueing for over and over again, anyone can do that. Maybe in future arguments I will spam one video and claim it supports all my statements, then I will be down to your level.

No evidence of recovered, infact hes just been hit with the most powerful weapon in the game. And no, overactive imagination, its more likely Kain will cut bowser in half if anything, and again, no I would hope Kains not weakened after a strike from Raziels reaver when he enters the fight, sure he could still win but its not fair. 😆 Bowsers been on the top of a ball of lava, as large at best as a small country or county that creates a gravitational "black hole" so weak it can barely pull in tiny planetoids and space craft. All ambigious btw.

When did I say that? None of them are at the stage Soul reaver era Dumahim area, their at the early stage. Raziels brothers are theoretically as vampires his thousands year old seniors, I dont know what your confused little counter here is supposed to be argueing.

Youve not satisfied anyone but yourself tbh, which is useless since I am your only oposition. But I may as well do an arrogant little counter "last line" since you seem to think it makes you feel better;

I have done more than enough to counter and provide evidence against the long list of fallacies youve drawn up and have proven Kains durability, power and skill enough to remove Bowsers minor threat of scratching some small holes in him. Interestingly not only does this thread prove Kains durability beyond anything I claimed (alongside the ignorance+bias of the forum in general due to its constant mocking and doubtful derogtary claims against Kain being so durable but I am used to the forums ignorance by now) it proves the wraith blade and therefore the soul reaver can bypass and cause wound to anyone who has less than 10x+ Star core pressure durability.

In summary, kain is the most powerful conventional character (non Pyron/Belial/planet destroyer etc) on KMC and his weapon blows most other fictional weapons of its level out the water.

Originally posted by The Scenario
I've done enough to satisfy the burden of proof, for myself and likely anyone but you. Sorry, but I'm done with this thread.

6ft stick in a crossbow was lulzy. noneyes

Its just BS tbh with nothing to comment it, machines dont automatically have to be metal. If anything, fiction tells us you can have biological, plastic or energy based machines. You cant really prove anything, just a funny bias little statement to once again, aid bowser in any way you can.

Oh, and I actually want an answer in your next post. No BS dodging. Accept Mr Occam or find a logical reason to what other material it can be, giving evidence for it.

No bullshit, tearing something is harder than just making a hole. Again, lets go back to learning pressure shale we? larger pressure areas require more force, by trying to tear Kains skin not only are you tearing the thin layer hes got thousands of earth pressure/SI over but his flesh, muscle, maybe bone etc. Bowsers area of his cone claw is in the square inches including his fingers, hes never tearing Kain.

Nah, your a hypocrite because you call basic physics "idiotic claim" yet belive you can tear up skin whose lightest top layer can take star core pressures x10+ just because you think human skin tears like this. Please note A) this is compared to human density flesh? and B) All these objects have a far far far lower surface area behind them than the comparison between Bowsers very claw tip and his fat fingers/hands.

what an outright lie. Bowsers hand/fingers= OOO>, if the shaft alike to an arrow (or bowsers finger) was thinner than the sharp claw then you may be able to try and claim he can push his finger behind the claw, but its not the case, and again, hes just making a hole. No major wound. officially prove what? weve proven, in the other thread that Kains very top thin layer of skin has such high resistance, how many layers of skin make up the hunk of flesh, bone, muscle etc you "want" Bowser to apprently pierce with ease is on a whole other level. You cant understand this apprently, you think the very top layer of skin that a small splinter can pierce on a human has equel pressure strength to the flesh, muscle and other layers of skin? please tell me you dont

Lol wow that isnt even what a hypocrite is ^^;

Heres the 'basic physics' for ya:

Kain's flesh can take 4.39e17 Pa
Kains's bones can take 7.9e18 Pa
Bowser's claws can produce 7.216e19 Pa

Bowser's claws can produce force 164x what Kain's flesh can take and 9x what his bones can take. IE with 6% of his strength Bowser can tear Kain's flesh, with 11% he can shatter his bones. Now show me, and I do mean show, the 'basic physics' that say that an object with a cone entry point where so little force is used to pierce would stop trying to get through 3 mm of skin.

>____> => is OO>, dont nitpick what symbols I used. Lulz no major wound? Even if the claws were the only thing to get through thats still major damage to Kain. I mean c'mon, a flesh slash was enough to make him writhe in pain but 3 Bowser sized claw holes will do nothing? Besides this he has never shown any kind of useful stamina to things that make him bleed so theres no evidence for you to grab.

..wait.. whats this? You forgot to give the evidence again? Didnt see that coming.. Things youve yet to prove... with science! parm_k-monster:

1. Kain's biological structures durability in relation to each other.
2. How Bowser's claws will hardly get past the skin.
3. If 2 then how far they would get in and how the coned claws to fingers will effect it.

Without giving evidence for 1 Kain will either use my 'human scaled' bone figures or have his durability at only being his skin level, 1/18th of the figure I gave aka base. In other words not proving this will either put him back to base or youll have to admit to human biology scaling which would mean accepting the human scaled tearing.

Without giving evidence for 2 and 3 theres no proof to say that Bowser wont be tearing Kain to shreds.

Actual evidence or don't bother.

You cant understand this apprently, you think claws with 164 and 9 times a persons flesh and bone limit would stop at the skin? Please tell me you don't 🙂

In summary, kain is the most powerful conventional character (non Pyron/Belial/planet destroyer etc) on KMC and his weapon blows most other fictional weapons of its level out the water.

Originally posted by BloodRain

Oookaaaaayyyyy, Occam's razor aside what do you think it is? Is bias the one who says a machine is metal for simplicity or the one who says it may be plastic? 🙄

Oh, and I actually want an answer in your next post. No BS dodging. Accept Mr Occam or find a logical reason to what other material it can be, giving evidence for it.

Yeaaahhhhh fail.... never said that now did I? Read that part again.. aw hell I'll rearrange it for you. Skin is pierced at XPa and tears at YPa, if the skin needs 100XPa to be pierced then, unless its not skin anymore, would tear at 100YPa. [If you haven't got the algebra, X and Y are the Pa of piercing and tearing respectfully, 100- is both Pa's equally scaled up. Like 1.3Pa and 0.8Pa becoming 130Pa and 80Pa]

Lol wow that isnt even what a hypocrite is ^^;

Heres the 'basic physics' for ya:

Kain's flesh can take 4.39e17 Pa
Kains's bones can take 7.9e18 Pa
Bowser's claws can produce 7.216e19 Pa

Bowser's claws can produce force 164x what Kain's flesh can take and 9x what his bones can take. IE with [b]6% of his strength Bowser can tear Kain's flesh, with 11% he can shatter his bones. Now show me, and I do mean show, the 'basic physics' that say that an object with a cone entry point where so little force is used to pierce would stop trying to get through 3 mm of skin.

>____> => is OO>, dont nitpick what symbols I used. Lulz no major wound? Even if the claws were the only thing to get through thats still major damage to Kain. I mean c'mon, a flesh slash was enough to make him writhe in pain but 3 Bowser sized claw holes will do nothing? Besides this he has never shown any kind of useful stamina to things that make him bleed so theres no evidence for you to grab.

..wait.. whats this? You forgot to give the evidence again? Didnt see that coming.. Things youve yet to prove... with science! parm_k-monster:

1. Kain's biological structures durability in relation to each other.
2. How Bowser's claws will hardly get past the skin.
3. If 2 then how far they would get in and how the coned claws to fingers will effect it.

Without giving evidence for 1 Kain will either use my 'human scaled' bone figures or have his durability at only being his skin level, 1/18th of the figure I gave aka base. In other words not proving this will either put him back to base or youll have to admit to human biology scaling which would mean accepting the human scaled tearing.

Without giving evidence for 2 and 3 theres no proof to say that Bowser wont be tearing Kain to shreds.

Actual evidence or don't bother.

You cant understand this apprently, you think claws with 164 and 9 times a persons flesh and bone limit would stop at the skin? Please tell me you don't 🙂

Yet Dante still wrecks his shit. ermmvin [/B]

I dont care what it is, hence I will not make wild guesses 🙂

It is fail, you just cant understand it which why it will continue to fail. I dont know what your talking about here, skin tears at a magnitude that rivals its piercing strength, difference is, unless Bowsers only interested in slowly peeling Kains very top layer off which is the current math on Kains skin layer we have, then that may be fine, but your talking about tearing a larger piece, ergo, more surface area, ridiculous surface area pressure required.

It is, a hypocrite is someone who preaches something but does not practice it, ergo you call out stupid claims then make more stupid ones.

Well ill take these calcs with a bit of salt until we discuss it fully with Dadumon and morridini in the maths thread but taking into account your claims, all of this is in a tiny area, e.g. the area I admit Bowser can pierce, e.g. at his very claw tip. However, Kains pressure threshold he can take only increases across the larger area Bowser has to try and damage (this is where tearing, or pushing his whole finger/claw comes in) while his ability to do damage falls dramatically (e.g. the larger parts of his hand, vs whole square inches of Kains skin).

Well its relevent, you used ==> as if you were talking about a smaller mass behind the cone point like your examples, e.g. arrows, spears etc, this is not the case with bowsers chubby little fingers and hands. Claw holes are little to nothing to the wraith blade, youd realise this if you looked at any Vampire regen vids. Hell, is that your only goal? proving bowser can make Kain give a moan of pain for a second then recover? Considering any counter strike from Kain is a one hit kill thats pretty low.

The evidence has been given, the math for kains skin is clear in the math thread 😕 , this is all I am discussing at the moment, nothing much new.

1. I dont have to prove any of this, LoK factors are no different to real world, so trying to claim Kains body is not as durable by proportion in some areas as a human is absurd, and its your claim anyway so back your theory.

2. He can get past perhaps the first layer which is the durability we have for Kain in the math thread, however his surface area increases the further down his claws you go, the cone edge on his claw is not=to the pressure at the point.

3. At best, it would get up half an inch down the coned claws, his fingers are chanceless since their fat, as is his hand even worse. As I said, Bowsers hand will get stuck in Kain, especially if Kain moves.

Human scaled tearing is your little theory on how solar pressure skin will tear, completly ignoring the fact the tensile strength of such skin is vast. You cant tear human skin if it was that strong, even if you had the force ot pierce it.

Claw point= your estimation, not the rest of the surface area of any part of bowsers attack. I could probably give a rough estimate of how much pressure Bowser is up against, and what he is producing over a square couple of inches, you wont like the numbers though.

😆 Until Dante gets better feats hes going to have a job not shattering his own weapons on Kains body. Although kain beats him regardless of his durability, has too many advantages both magic and otherwise.

It's like a freaking addiction. I can stop any time I want.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Were not talking about gameplay at all, were talking about canon pointing out raziel has to look for other avenues of attack to defeat entities who according to you, also in canon can be sliced up by Raziels claws. The canon says otherwise, because he would not use different tactics.

I'm talking about it not being in Raziel's personality to tear anything apart. Please, just show me Raziel tearing anything apart so that you can at least say that he would try.

Not the same weapon, time period or opponent, you cant grab a random shaft/spear from any point in history and claim its evidence. I am not running about doing all the screenshots so I suggest you show me evidence to suggest those Vamp hunters are not using a single shaft with only two prongs, and showing the four prong+central spike staff in Soul reaver. Are you forgetting Umah was a single, weak, non evolved vampire women?

I don't even care, we have a statement from the Elder God proving you wrong. Further, I have already shown you the Sarafan killing so many vampires and impaling them, but you seem predisposed to ignoring my evidence.

Again, no argument and just another claim without proof as if you ignored me altogether. Your subtle, passive insults and lack of arguments are becoming common place it seems. Theres no evidence to suggest they were evolved "centuries" ago....

Without proof? Then what do you call this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMTasRHZTcM#t=1m53s

From Raziel himself, they were all evolved, and since Dumah was alive at this point, we know that the vampire hunters killed him after this evolution.

I did, the spears look nothing alike, their only comparison is their both spearlike.

And used in melee, unless you have actual evidence otherwise?

The object in question is just a larger object than the typical crossbow would usually fire, nothing stupid tbh, but funny coming from someone who thinks humans can beat evolved vampires hand to hand despite them being thoughly domesticated by vamps before.

Funny, considering humans and vampires fighting historically ends in human victory. I have already shown those examples from Soul Reaver 2 and Blood Omen 2. In particular, Umah, Vorador, and Janos Audron have all been killed by humans. Even the Dumahim were taken down by human vampire hunters, since evidently they aren't nearly as domesticated as everyone thinks they are. Please, go ahead and prove that a staff in a crossbow will work, since so far you have not addressed any of the problems inherent in the design. You just keep saying it would work with no proof.

Raziels star core pressure claws dont think so, infact they think he needs to find other ways rather than simple melee to finish them off. So what chance does a human have? with his measly strength?

Raziel basically admits to being wounded by humans in melee. So we have evidence that human strength can harm vampires. What you keep ignoring is that vampire regeneration takes care of those wounds. Actual proof of their durability?

3. 😆 youve shown one vamp dead by spears, another by water and claim this somehow proves they were evolved centuries ago, what BS, comprehension; zero.

Vampires that were killed centuries ago being identical to current vampires does indeed mean that they evolved centuries ago. Are you sure you understand my point?

I knew you would ask this, why would I need evidence that they evolve after I die? First of all their corruption and therefore evolution as we have dubbed it is purely spiritual which is very much in "existance" and second, their bodies are dead anyway so any argument trying to claim they have ot be "alive" to change is absurd. Not that I have to prove anything, the constant fact is they evolve over time, until theres evidence of the contary I dont see any canon barrier to them being speared having a difference.

Please, do prove that vampires continue to evolve after death. It's your claim, obviously, and being extraordinary, should require extraordinary evidence. Can you prove that evlution is purely spiritual, as well? Raziel's wings are hardly spiritual, so that needs good evidence, too.

He did not say when, or how though did he? your also making a general belief that the EG was talking about a specific organisation, the humans in the citadel on the LoK wiki are pointed out as being the vampire hunters of the period. Theres no hunters after Raziels awakening.

The humans were supposed to have been cowed before Raziel was cast into the abyss, too, but seeing as Dumah was alive then, and less than 500 years later is killed by humans proves that they are still active. I don't care if it was a specific group, really, the point I'm arguing is vampires being vulnerable to impalement, particularly by humans.

You showed me bugger all, you showed a video that you have claimed covers everything your argueing for over and over again, anyone can do that. Maybe in future arguments I will spam one video and claim it supports all my statements, then I will be down to your level.

Did you have a point here or are you lowering yourself to ad hominem? Perhaps I keep showing the video because you failed to refute it, so I guess I'm asking if you will please try to do that at some point.

No evidence of recovered, infact hes just been hit with the most powerful weapon in the game. And no, overactive imagination, its more likely Kain will cut bowser in half if anything, and again, no I would hope Kains not weakened after a strike from Raziels reaver when he enters the fight, sure he could still win but its not fair. 😆 Bowsers been on the top of a ball of lava, as large at best as a small country or county that creates a gravitational "black hole" so weak it can barely pull in tiny planetoids and space craft. All ambigious btw.

Take a look at the video again. After the initial hit, Kain was gasping, stumbling slightly, and had trouble speaking, and that lasted even when he grabbed Raziel. After that? Raziel's soul started flowing through him, his gasping stopped, he was the one supporting Raziel, and he could once again speak clearly. That indicates recovery, since the Wraith Blade is hardly a physical weapon. In any case, please prove Kain's strength is sufficient to harm Bowser. In addition, I seriously hope that realize that stars are not actually made of lava, because if so you are dangerously mistaken of their nature. Further, please quantify "barely," as the scene quite clearly shows several planetoids pulled into the star, and the Comet Observatory was quite clearly torn to pieces.

When did I say that? None of them are at the stage Soul reaver era Dumahim area, their at the early stage. Raziels brothers are theoretically as vampires his thousands year old seniors, I dont know what your confused little counter here is supposed to be argueing.

You said it when you claimed I wrong, since I stated that Raziel and the others were evolved at that point. I will admit you confused when you started talking about the reason Kain threw Raziel into the abyss, since that had nothing to do with my argument and was a complete non-sequitor. In any case, Dumah was evolved before Raziel was thrown into the abyss, and was killed less than 500 years later. Further, unless you still think he managed to evolved while he was dead, Dumah was killed at the same evolutionary point as the current Dumahim.

Youve not satisfied anyone but yourself tbh, which is useless since I am your only oposition. But I may as well do an arrogant little counter "last line" since you seem to think it makes you feel better;

I have done more than enough to counter and provide evidence against the long list of fallacies youve drawn up and have proven Kains durability, power and skill enough to remove Bowsers minor threat of scratching some small holes in him. Interestingly not only does this thread prove Kains durability beyond anything I claimed (alongside the ignorance+bias of the forum in general due to its constant mocking and doubtful derogtary claims against Kain being so durable but I am used to the forums ignorance by now) it proves the wraith blade and therefore the soul reaver can bypass and cause wound to anyone who has less than 10x+ Star core pressure durability.

In summary, kain is the most powerful conventional character (non Pyron/Belial/planet destroyer etc) on KMC and his weapon blows most other fictional weapons of its level out the water.

I already said that satisfying the burden of proof was enough for me, why do you insist on doing this? In any case, please list the "fallacies" I've used, any cases of ignorance, as well as bias, and then go ahead and then by all means keep claiming you superiority.

Originally posted by The Scenario

I'm talking about it not being in Raziel's personality to tear anything apart. Please, just show me Raziel tearing anything apart so that you can at least say that he would try.

I don't even care, we have a statement from the Elder God proving you wrong. Further, I have already shown you the Sarafan killing so many vampires and impaling them, but you seem predisposed to ignoring my evidence.

Without proof? Then what do you call this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMTasRHZTcM#t=1m53s

From Raziel himself, they were all evolved, and since Dumah was alive at this point, we know that the vampire hunters killed him after this evolution.

And used in melee, unless you have actual evidence otherwise?

Funny, considering humans and vampires fighting historically ends in human victory. I have already shown those examples from Soul Reaver 2 and Blood Omen 2. In particular, Umah, Vorador, and Janos Audron have all been killed by humans. Even the Dumahim were taken down by human vampire hunters, since evidently they aren't nearly as domesticated as everyone thinks they are. Please, go ahead and prove that a staff in a crossbow will work, since so far you have not addressed any of the problems inherent in the design. You just keep saying it would work with no proof.

Raziel basically admits to being wounded by humans in melee. So we have evidence that human strength can harm vampires. What you keep ignoring is that vampire regeneration takes care of those wounds. Actual proof of their durability?

Vampires that were killed centuries ago being identical to current vampires does indeed mean that they evolved centuries ago. Are you sure you understand my point?

Please, do prove that vampires continue to evolve after death. It's your claim, obviously, and being extraordinary, should require extraordinary evidence. Can you prove that evlution is purely spiritual, as well? Raziel's wings are hardly spiritual, so that needs good evidence, too.

The humans were supposed to have been cowed before Raziel was cast into the abyss, too, but seeing as Dumah was alive then, and less than 500 years later is killed by humans proves that they are still active. I don't care if it was a specific group, really, the point I'm arguing is vampires being vulnerable to impalement, particularly by humans.

Did you have a point here or are you lowering yourself to ad hominem? Perhaps I keep showing the video because you failed to refute it, so I guess I'm asking if you will please try to do that at some point.

Take a look at the video again. After the initial hit, Kain was gasping, stumbling slightly, and had trouble speaking, and that lasted even when he grabbed Raziel. After that? Raziel's soul started flowing through him, his gasping stopped, he was the one supporting Raziel, and he could once again speak clearly. That indicates recovery, since the Wraith Blade is hardly a physical weapon. In any case, please prove Kain's strength is sufficient to harm Bowser. In addition, I seriously hope that realize that stars are not actually made of lava, because if so you are dangerously mistaken of their nature. Further, please quantify "barely," as the scene quite clearly shows several planetoids pulled into the star, and the Comet Observatory was quite clearly torn to pieces.

You said it when you claimed I wrong, since I stated that Raziel and the others were evolved at that point. I will admit you confused when you started talking about the reason Kain threw Raziel into the abyss, since that had nothing to do with my argument and was a complete non-sequitor. In any case, Dumah was evolved before Raziel was thrown into the abyss, and was killed less than 500 years later. Further, unless you still think he managed to evolved while he was dead, Dumah was killed at the same evolutionary point as the current Dumahim.

I already said that satisfying the burden of proof was enough for me, why do you insist on doing this? In any case, please list the "fallacies" I've used, any cases of ignorance, as well as bias, and then go ahead and then by all means keep claiming you superiority.

🤨 you think the entire part of this argument is to claim Raziel tears things apart? It was a statement to point out he could slice through anything he likes, e.g. tear it apart without even trying to. Also, it would not be his choice tbh, one slash and he should if your theory on these vamps not being duable at all should fall in two or something along those lines. Also I dont need to prove its in his personality, he assaults enemies with his claws, so tearing something apart is in his capacity unless he has to change his tactics because their too strong for him to just slice up.

The EG says nothing about what period of vampire hunters, what weapons they used, how they used them or anything of the like tbh.

Raziel is pointing out that vampires evolve over time, yes...so? Thats nothing to do with your claim, your trying to claim said vampires were at the "monster" level of evolution/devolution Raziel was so disgusted at when he saw them centuries later.

Youve yet to prove this. You cant claim I have to prove "otherwise" until youve proven they were used in melee, just because a two pronged shaft was used in melee does not mean all shafts can be assumed thus.

Is it funny? when Vampires have the humans "domesticated",as they hide in one small settlement while Kain sits on the throne of Nosgoth? Go read up the history. All 3 have no known durability feats but the first is a spiecies of evolution millenia away from SR era and the other 2 are unique as well, Vorador being featless, you cant compare pears to oranges, its a waste of time since their different things. A crossbow launches whats technically smaller shafts of what we see here, although its not a crossbow so i dont know why you keep spamming this, its nothing alike to a crossbow, it looks like a speargun and fires, what do ya know? spears...

Raziels not a vampire anymore. Read up on the history of the game again.

3. It actually proves they continued to evolve through death, their not much different to current vamps according to you and we know Vamps evolve. Not that your case makes any sense.

You just spammed what you said last time, actually change your argument/reply to my counter or you may as well leave. Vamps are already dead and evolve, so no its not extraorindary, stop trying to twist words, you cant prove or disprove a reason for the Vampires to not continue to change, as I said the source of their evolution is spiritual, just like how Dumah was still far more powerful when he was revived, it made him stronger.

He was also softer, also where are you getting 500 years? Well your case is flawed by the fact you dont have any evidence to suggest this is true for evolved vamps that Raziel cant just slice up with his claws.

Look up the fallacies, its not one. Further, the point is spamming a video over and over even though its been refuted is not going to convince me.

He was still in pain after trying to support raziel, there was no stress on him more than Raziels weight at that point. Bowsers top feat is an iron ball on him, needless to say the feat is pathetic. Well real stars are not no, this mario toon star is. "define" barely? well, a real blackhole continually swallows huge stars, e.g. stars that are billions tmies larger than the one in Mario galaxy and further, most of the surrounding solar system, while the SMG one is on screen for seconds at a time and it takes an extremely long time to swallow the tiny bodies it does swallow, so its useless. Further ambigious pointers are that any possible harm seems to be reversed by the fairy thing that saves them all.

I think your wrapping a silly bugger and a strawman/red herring into this argument for some reason. Your trying to use the fact vampires evolve over time, and have small evolutionary traits such as wings as a reason to suggest Dumah was evolved when you know full well I mean to the level we see him after Raziels destruction. Theres no proof to suggest he was not killed not long after Raziel being tossed in the abyss, along with his brood.

Well, satisfying it in your "eyes", I guess if we could all be so easily satisfied you would have a better argument in my eyes as well. Well youve shown ignorance throughout, from implying you thought Kain gained strength from the reaver absorbing Raziel, to trying to red herring your way past Kains durability by making flawed comparisons of other vampires who are featless or diverse. You dont know anything about difference between Umah, Janos and SR era vamps or Kain for that matter since you try and use them as part of the same examples. Your biggest and favourite fallacies are hasty generalisation, so far you see one vampire or two defeated by humans then generalise their all the same by trying to point out some comparison that humans can beat them. On top of that, your most annoying fallacious use of Hasty Generalisation is the continued claiming of how one spear automatically becomes all spears in LoK just because they are "spears".

If I could be bothered I could go back and find more, most of your posts are red herrings, your trying to get me to argue things that are irrelevent overall. You also outright lie, what with claims of "bowser is durable" and "bowser wrecks Kain" without even quoting evidence.

Originally posted by Burning thought
🤨 you think the entire part of this argument is to claim Raziel tears things apart? It was a statement to point out he could slice through anything he likes, e.g. tear it apart without even trying to. Also, it would not be his choice tbh, one slash and he should if your theory on these vamps not being duable at all should fall in two or something along those lines. Also I dont need to prove its in his personality, he assaults enemies with his claws, so tearing something apart is in his capacity unless he has to change his tactics because their too strong for him to just slice up.

But we already have an explanation for that: regeneration. Raziel's normal claw strikes don't work because they regenerate too quickly. Raziel slices them up quite easily:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I28hIOSJbMs#t=6m50s

Raziel can hurt them, and put them in a stun state while they try to regenerate. In the cutscene right before this, Raziel describes them, saying that vampires flesh "begins to close as soon as it is cleaved." You'll note that is, in fact, able to be cleaved. Raziel does not mention that vampires are hard to hurt; he merely says that it's hard to make damage stick. You have no evidence of any durability, and the things you say prove it are already explained by regeneration. That's it.

The EG says nothing about what period of vampire hunters, what weapons they used, how they used them or anything of the like tbh.

Irrelevant. We already know it happened in the 500 year period between Raziel being thrown into the abyss and then coming back, despite humans supposedly being cowed. We already know what weapons they used, since several of them are still impaling the vampires. And we know it was melee because, historically, all staff weapons have been used that way, in addition to the fact that we have seen vampire hunters using staffs in melee.

Raziel is pointing out that vampires evolve over time, yes...so? Thats nothing to do with your claim, your trying to claim said vampires were at the "monster" level of evolution/devolution Raziel was so disgusted at when he saw them centuries later.

Who said I'm trying to claim that? As long as they were evolved before the attack, I've made my point. The fact that they were monsters at the time is a bonus.

Youve yet to prove this. You cant claim I have to prove "otherwise" until youve proven they were used in melee, just because a two pronged shaft was used in melee does not mean all shafts can be assumed thus.

Just because every staff seen in the series has been used in melee? I can name several examples, from the Sarafan and vampire hunters, as well as human glyph guards and Moebius' mercenaries. I believe vampire worshippers used them as well. Can you name one example of a staff being used as a ranged weapon? Further, you're getting your debate practices wrong. You made the claim that they were ranged, you need to prove it.

Is it funny? when Vampires have the humans "domesticated",as they hide in one small settlement while Kain sits on the throne of Nosgoth? Go read up the history. All 3 have no known durability feats but the first is a spiecies of evolution millenia away from SR era and the other 2 are unique as well, Vorador being featless, you cant compare pears to oranges, its a waste of time since their different things. A crossbow launches whats technically smaller shafts of what we see here, although its not a crossbow so i dont know why you keep spamming this, its nothing alike to a crossbow, it looks like a speargun and fires, what do ya know? spears...

It's hilarious. The humans are supposed to be domesticated, but then the entire Dumahim clan is scattered after they get attacked by humans. Before that, vampires are getting killed by human glyph guards. Before that, vampires are getting genocided by the Sarafan. Do you know why crossbows fire small bolts? It's because they're light. Large ammo is too heavy to use effectively, especially since your proposed ammo is sharpened on both ends. Please show me one of these weapons being used, then, since it's your claim.

Raziels not a vampire anymore. Read up on the history of the game again.

I would've thought you'd say something about Raziel being more durable than other vampires, but I suppose not. In any case, yes, Raziel is a wraith, we know this already. It's been something of a plot point that he retained his vampire traits. However, I would think it odd that he'd become less durable even when he became much stronger.

3. It actually proves they continued to evolve through death, their not much different to current vamps according to you and we know Vamps evolve. Not that your case makes any sense.

My argument- Dead vampires resemble living ones, therefore they were killed at the same stage of development as the living ones.

Your claim- Dead vampires continue to evolve.

I would say your claim doesn't make any sense. Why would vampires that have been killed continue evolving? You need evidence for that one. Heck, the reason we know crocodiles were around near the time of the dinosaurs is because we found fossils resembling the current, living ones. They're still at the same stage of evolution, or do you think the fossils evolved?

You just spammed what you said last time, actually change your argument/reply to my counter or you may as well leave. Vamps are already dead and evolve, so no its not extraorindary, stop trying to twist words, you cant prove or disprove a reason for the Vampires to not continue to change, as I said the source of their evolution is spiritual, just like how Dumah was still far more powerful when he was revived, it made him stronger.

Vampire evolution is not spiritual, you are just confusing two different mechanisms. The first, evolution, seems to be purely physical, as vampires gain certain traits over time, such as Rahab's immunity to water or Zephon becoming a giant spider. The other is vampire wraiths, which come about when a vampire's soul lingers in the Spectral Realm for "too long" while the body is dead. If they posses their body again when the thing that killed them is removed, they become a revived vampire. Dumah is a revived vampire, since his soul spent centuries in the Spectral Realm. This has nothing to do with his evolutionary trait, which seems to be armor or physical strength or something, like the Dumahim having clubs for hands and long tongues.

He was also softer, also where are you getting 500 years? Well your case is flawed by the fact you dont have any evidence to suggest this is true for evolved vamps that Raziel cant just slice up with his claws.

Point of order: Raziel can slice them up with his claws, and thereby incapacitate them while their healing factor goes to work. In fact, Raziel can't grab them to throw them at things without first slicing them up. Not to mention Raziel can slice Kain up.

Look up the fallacies, its not one. Further, the point is spamming a video over and over even though its been refuted is not going to convince me.

Attempting to insult me is indeed an ad hominem. You have not yet refuted it, though. For reference, here it is once again so you can try again:

Current Dumahim- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRaLJ4caPtI

Dumahim killed centuries ago- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMBp3prbh1E#t=5m35s

Same stage of evolution. That again proves that the Dumahim killed centuries ago were evolved.

He was still in pain after trying to support raziel, there was no stress on him more than Raziels weight at that point. Bowsers top feat is an iron ball on him, needless to say the feat is pathetic. Well real stars are not no, this mario toon star is. "define" barely? well, a real blackhole continually swallows huge stars, e.g. stars that are billions tmies larger than the one in Mario galaxy and further, most of the surrounding solar system, while the SMG one is on screen for seconds at a time and it takes an extremely long time to swallow the tiny bodies it does swallow, so its useless. Further ambigious pointers are that any possible harm seems to be reversed by the fairy thing that saves them all.

Does Kain look like he's in pain here, before his heart is removed? Since the answer is no, he seems to have recovered, and is quite clearly doing much better than Raziel. Bowser's top feat is tanking a supernova. Can you even prove that the star in question is made of lava? Further, I don't think you actually understand what a black hole is. Black holes actually have the same mass as the star that created them, with a much, much smaller volume that increases its density, and thus gravity. Black holes can actually replace a star in a functioning solar system without much fuss. It's actually more than possible for a planet to orbit a black hole in the same way it would a star. So no, black holes do not typically consume the surrounding solar system. The planetoids near the star were consumed during its collapse, and after the supernova the black hole ripped the Comet Observatory apart and a bit of the rest orbited outside the Event Horizon. So, perfectly normal behavior, you just made a mistake. I suppose I could try and find out how much energy was in that supernova by finding an average and scaling it down...

Well, according to wikipedia, a normal supernova can collapse with 1.e^44 joules of energy. Divide that by, say, one billion (1,000,000,000) and you still get 1.e^35 joules. That being in the Decillions, about 9 orders of magnitude above millions of joules. That's probably the best estimate you're getting, and about all I'm willing to do for this, accuracy be damned. So still orders of magnitude above Kain in that department.

I think your wrapping a silly bugger and a strawman/red herring into this argument for some reason. Your trying to use the fact vampires evolve over time, and have small evolutionary traits such as wings as a reason to suggest Dumah was evolved when you know full well I mean to the level we see him after Raziels destruction. Theres no proof to suggest he was not killed not long after Raziel being tossed in the abyss, along with his brood.

Well I already prove that Dumah and his kin were evolved at the time they died, so I wasn't sure what else to do. Proving it a second time seemed a good option.

Well, satisfying it in your "eyes", I guess if we could all be so easily satisfied you would have a better argument in my eyes as well. Well youve shown ignorance throughout, from implying you thought Kain gained strength from the reaver absorbing Raziel, to trying to red herring your way past Kains durability by making flawed comparisons of other vampires who are featless or diverse. You dont know anything about difference between Umah, Janos and SR era vamps or Kain for that matter since you try and use them as part of the same examples. Your biggest and favourite fallacies are hasty generalisation, so far you see one vampire or two defeated by humans then generalise their all the same by trying to point out some comparison that humans can beat them. On top of that, your most annoying fallacious use of Hasty Generalisation is the continued claiming of how one spear automatically becomes all spears in LoK just because they are "spears".

So all you can come up with is 2 fallacies I haven't even committed. Nice. Why did you put "eyes" in quotes? I'm not sure you're really understanding my points, so you're labeling them fallacies for some reason. First of all, the vampire argument is quite relevant to the Dumahim, and my use of Umah, Vorador, and Janos is an argument to prove that vampires share the same durability, not a generalization. You missed the point with the staffs, which is again about how they are used, and one spear is very much the same in that you stab things with it. Unless you have evidence that they are ranged, of course.

If I could be bothered I could go back and find more, most of your posts are red herrings, your trying to get me to argue things that are irrelevent overall. You also outright lie, what with claims of "bowser is durable" and "bowser wrecks Kain" without even quoting evidence.

Everything I've argued is relevant. This is false, I have cited multiple reason for why Bowser is both durable and able to kill Kain. Are you going to continue with this ad hominem nonsense or are you going to calm down and have a nice debate?

Originally posted by The Scenario

Since when does Regen stop your limbs from being torn off? never, never in LoK, I thought we were agreed that vamps could not regen limbs, heads etc. Regen covers how quickly they can recover, it proves Raziel cannot best their regen with his vast strength, therefore they must also have vast durability.

I would still like to know your source for 500 years. Again, your hasty generalisation at work, youve seen a few hunters thousands of years ago use spears, therefore you think you have evidence to claim thousands of years later it automatically means weapons that are also in your opinion spears were used the same. Ridiculous.

But you cannot prove they were "degenerates" at the level of the ones Raziel faced, you cant really prove anything.

First your the one claiming its a staff, second a couple of examples of peple thousands of years ago does not help your case. I made the deduction, its a difference because my argument has nothing to do with the Dumahim in this thread.

hence the impossibility of the Dumahim being beaten in hand to hand, they trade blows with Raziel and only the fledlings find the human race a problem, this sort of points out the fact the Dumahim were either killed by magic or when they were young, I am going by the later, e.g. barely evolved unlike the ones who can take blows from Raziel.

Raziels as skinny as a rake and has no feats to suggest he can take any punishment. Why odd?

Erm, no, again you cant just keep spamming "you need to prove it because I think it sounds strange", theres no reason yet to suggest they would stop changing. Fossils do not have spiritual owners whos power and evolution draw from Kains spiritual corruption he gave them, although stupid comparison is stupid anyway.

Yes it is, again you show ignorance. The traits they gain physically come from Kains soul, his corruption affects all of them differently on a spirtual level. If you knew anything about LoK the spirit/soul is everything to a vampire, their hunks of meat they reside in are simply animated by said soul, its why if you notice vampire bodies dissolve if you eat their souls. A revived vampire is something unique to the point so I will ignore your straw man since its irrelevent.

In canon, their flesh "seals as soon as it is cleaved", if they can heal from millions of tons of pressure, thats godly durability, the sort humans cannot come close to. What was that video showing? Kain in pain? useless....

Wrong, an ad hominem is trying to claim your defincencies as a reason to ignore or claim your argument as untrue, instead I make my counter to your argument, then add on the side your deficency, nothing here is an insult apart from your mocking of me by playing silly buggers. That is most rude of you.

You cant prove those Dumahim were killed centuries ago, further you still cannot prove they did not evolve while dormant.

Originally posted by The Scenario
[B][B]

Of course not, all Raziels doing is leaning against him gently may I add. I think if someone cut my chest, or even brused my chest(happened before) I would not be in constant pain at the slightest touch, least of all super durable Kain who can get up after having his heart torn out. Prove its a supernova. Its not made of hydrogen, nor does it continually give off heat and energy enough , it appears ot be a ball of magma, due to having magma pockets and rock platforms. 😆 Its funny, someone who thinks a small county sized "star" or lava ball is equel a feat to the real solar systems sun and a "black hole" that barely swallows small planetoids and ships is equel to vast system spanning holes is saying I dont know what these things are.

Also is it ever refered to as "the sun"? by any chance? further, whats your case for it being anything alike to a real star despite all the evidence ot the countary and toon elements?

Did you look up the "novas" from large balls of lava while you were at it? 🙂

Did you? did you really? someones lieing again, you cant prove this point because we dont see them when they are being attacked.

😆 Just 2? is that all? well sorry Scenario if you think you can expect to make a few failures of logic on the sides of your "arguments" but thats not how it works. Its not relevent at all, your taking random events, from random spiecies of vampires that your ignorant too altogether and comparing them. I dont have to prove their ranged until you prove their melee, you cant just claim their melee for fact and were used in melee in this instance just because youve a few vids of thousnad year old weapon tactics. Thouand years ago we thew our spears, now we can shoot them from launchers....see what I did there? lol....

Youve cited no real evidence and have argued none of it tbh, youve simply claimed "Bowser can", anyone can do that also look up the fallacies again, you dont know what they mean.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Since when does Regen stop your limbs from being torn off? never, never in LoK, I thought we were agreed that vamps could not regen limbs, heads etc. Regen covers how quickly they can recover, it proves Raziel cannot best their regen with his vast strength, therefore they must also have vast durability.

Let's try this again: when has Raziel ever ripped someone's arms off?

I would still like to know your source for 500 years. Again, your hasty generalisation at work, youve seen a few hunters thousands of years ago use spears, therefore you think you have evidence to claim thousands of years later it automatically means weapons that are also in your opinion spears were used the same. Ridiculous.

It beats your assumption that staffs automatically become a ranged weapon because THE FUTURE. Do you not learn from history? Historically, knives were melee weapons (occasionally thrown.) Guess what? Knives are still used in melee today. See, the thing here is, since we have so many example throughout history of staffs being used in melee, Occam's Razor dictates that they would stay that way. Unless, of course, there is reason to believe otherwise, which there is not. (The wiki says Soul Reaver is 1500 years after Blood Omen, Raziel says he served Kain for a millennium, i.e: 1000 years, simple math says Raziel was revived 500 years later.)

But you cannot prove they were "degenerates" at the level of the ones Raziel faced, you cant really prove anything.

You can't just say I didn't prove it when I have video evidence of vampires killed centuries ago at the same level as current ones. What you need to do is find actual evidence that counters this.

First your the one claiming its a staff, second a couple of examples of peple thousands of years ago does not help your case. I made the deduction, its a difference because my argument has nothing to do with the Dumahim in this thread.

"Claiming" it's a staff? It's literally a long shafts with prongs on the end. There's not much else it could be. Call it what you want, spear, stick, pole-arm, it's still the same thing. You cannot deduce that this is a ranged weapon based on...what? Do you even have anything that indicates it's used in range? You still need evidence for that.

hence the impossibility of the Dumahim being beaten in hand to hand, they trade blows with Raziel and only the fledlings find the human race a problem, this sort of points out the fact the Dumahim were either killed by magic or when they were young, I am going by the later, e.g. barely evolved unlike the ones who can take blows from Raziel.

Dumahim don't trade blows with Raziel, unless you want to argue that everything, including humans, will trade blows with him. Regeneration is the only saving grace they have. The evidence I showed you is a revived adult Dumahim, though, and the impaled ones also have the traits of adults.

Raziels as skinny as a rake and has no feats to suggest he can take any punishment. Why odd?

Quoted for future use. In any case, how does he manage to lift multi ton boulders if his body can't take any punishment?

Erm, no, again you cant just keep spamming "you need to prove it because I think it sounds strange", theres no reason yet to suggest they would stop changing. Fossils do not have spiritual owners whos power and evolution draw from Kains spiritual corruption he gave them, although stupid comparison is stupid anyway.

But you do need to prove it, because it's a claim. The fact that they're dead is, in fact, a good reason to assume they'd stop evolving. But I'm sure all those evolved vampires in Blood Omen 2 were drawn from Kain's corruption, too, right?

Yes it is, again you show ignorance. The traits they gain physically come from Kains soul, his corruption affects all of them differently on a spirtual level. If you knew anything about LoK the spirit/soul is everything to a vampire, their hunks of meat they reside in are simply animated by said soul, its why if you notice vampire bodies dissolve if you eat their souls. A revived vampire is something unique to the point so I will ignore your straw man since its irrelevent.

Nice try, but would you mind explaining how this hunk of meat continues to evolve when the soul is not inside it anymore? And again, we have example of evolution from Blood Omen 2, and Dumah is a revived vampire, which makes it relevant. No mention is ever made of what you're claiming now, so I'd get some better evidence if I were you.

In canon, their flesh "seals as soon as it is cleaved", if they can heal from millions of tons of pressure, thats godly durability, the sort humans cannot come close to. What was that video showing? Kain in pain? useless....

That's not durability, that's godly regeneration, which is the point. So many things can hurt them, but they can heal from them. Impalement is just thing they can't heal, as is fire, water, sound, and a few other things I don't care to remember now. In any case, yes, I just posted a video of Raziel harming Kain in a case where both are full power and nobody's been hit with a reaver.

Wrong, an ad hominem is trying to claim your defincencies as a reason to ignore or claim your argument as untrue, instead I make my counter to your argument, then add on the side your deficency, nothing here is an insult apart from your mocking of me by playing silly buggers. That is most rude of you.

I just think you don't recognize an insult when you make one. Referring to "my level" or claiming that I'm playing with you is indeed disregarding my points in favor of attacking me, especially since you again refused to address the actual argument. Prove dead vampires evolve, please.

You cant prove those Dumahim were killed centuries ago, further you still cannot prove they did not evolve while dormant.

First, I can, Dumah spent centuries in limbo. In other words, he and his clan were dead for centuries. Second, I don't have to prove a negative; it's your claim that vampires evolve while dead, so it's your job to prove it. Dumah is a revived vampire, so his wraith is the thing that made him stronger.

Of course not, all Raziels doing is leaning against him gently may I add. I think if someone cut my chest, or even brused my chest(happened before) I would not be in constant pain at the slightest touch, least of all super durable Kain who can get up after having his heart torn out. Prove its a supernova. Its not made of hydrogen, nor does it continually give off heat and energy enough , it appears ot be a ball of magma, due to having magma pockets and rock platforms. 😆 Its funny, someone who thinks a small county sized "star" or lava ball is equel a feat to the real solar systems sun and a "black hole" that barely swallows small planetoids and ships is equel to vast system spanning holes is saying I dont know what these things are.

If he's not in constant pain, you have no case for him being weakened. That's just it, if Kain isn't weakened by losing his heart, why the heck would a small cut affect his durability? In fact, the wraith blade did less to him than losing his heart did.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXGfjyPmCac#t=2m5s

Watch the scene. If it's lava, I'm sure you'll have no problem pointing to an example of a lava ball tripling in a size and then imploding on itself. Wait, where do you think it's not giving off energy? It's glowing like, wait for it, a star! How did you come to the conclusion that i's not made of hydrogen, by the way? Did you test its chemical composition? It's amazing that you can positively identify any material through a youtube video. By the way, it seems you still don't understand how actual celestial bodies work, since both the star and black hole are acting quite in character. I'd also like how you think this equates to "barely" pulling anything in, when it quite clearly destroyed several ships and did pull everything in.

Also is it ever refered to as "the sun"? by any chance? further, whats your case for it being anything alike to a real star despite all the evidence ot the countary and toon elements?

Rosalina gives a lesson on what happens when stars die after it goes nova. Further, we have the final battle in the center of the universe along with Bowser creating galaxies. When you're playing a game about space, stars are pretty common.

Did you look up the "novas" from large balls of lava while you were at it? 🙂

No, it kept sending me back to stars.

Did you? did you really? someones lieing again, you cant prove this point because we dont see them when they are being attacked.

Indeed I did, and I don't appreciate being called a liar. We have the evidence of what they looked like dead, and that will stand until you can prove that things can evolve after they die.

😆 Just 2? is that all? well sorry Scenario if you think you can expect to make a few failures of logic on the sides of your "arguments" but thats not how it works. Its not relevent at all, your taking random events, from random spiecies of vampires that your ignorant too altogether and comparing them. I dont have to prove their ranged until you prove their melee, you cant just claim their melee for fact and were used in melee in this instance just because youve a few vids of thousnad year old weapon tactics. Thouand years ago we thew our spears, now we can shoot them from launchers....see what I did there? lol....

Well, you said there were a lot, so I was expecting more, but it's a nice try at derailing this thread, so I'll commend you on that. All vampires share common traits, and this is how we know they are vampires. Until there is evidence that the Dumahim are any different from regular vampires, the evidence from history still stands. In the same way, we have historical precedent of staffs being used in melee, so this does not change unless there is a good reason to. Again, we still use knives in melee. Heck, we still use spears today.

Youve cited no real evidence and have argued none of it tbh, youve simply claimed "Bowser can", anyone can do that also look up the fallacies again, you dont know what they mean.

The pile of evidence again disagrees with you. I've posted Bowser's feats as evidence already, would you like me to do it again? Bowser can hurt Kain because he's stronger than someone who hurt Kain. Bowser's more durable than Kain because he tanked a supernova. This is called evidence. BT, you still have yet to correctly identify a fallacy, I don't think you can talk here.

Originally posted by The Scenario

Never with his claws, he blasts you into bits with the reaver, when has Bowser ripped someone in half? Also your making red herrings again, the amount of fallacies you come out with. The whole "when has Raziel" nonsense is ridiculous when the guy would not have to have done something to be able to do it. So lets try the actual argument again, why wouldnt earth core pressures not turn their bodies into mulch if they were not durable?

Not really, since we see vampires being more than a match for humans, let alone a lot of vampires against rag tag bands of surviving humans, my suggestion of launching weapons being used when we know of one is far more likely (even if we did not know of one) than humans giving off equel power to Raziel. Occam's Razor is a theory, only slightly more useful than your own and no, Occam's Razor indicates that the fewest assumptions is most likely, considering your assuming a vast number of things, some of which are impossible like humans besting Soul Reaver Vamp durability while I am simply suggesting Humans use a spear launcher they already seem to have. Soul reaver the game starts 1500 years its true, but thats at the beginning ,e.g. when Raziel and his brothers are still arguably prestine. A lot of time passes since then.

You cant prove they were killed centuries ago though.

Or long spearlike shafts with aerodynamic fins at the back. I would need evidence if I was argueing the fundamentals of Dumahim vs something, but Dumahim are not in this thread. My suggestions are counters to your daft suggestions, the difference is yours seems to be an argument trying to get somewhere, but stopped due to your inability to prove they were melee weapons.

Show me their traits, I have been asking for this evidence for the past few pages, show me a print screen close up of your comparison because in the video, they look smaller and many have no spears in them e.g., they should be revived unless they were not evolved (my theory).

He seems to create the equivelant strength through supernatural gifts, similiar to vampires. You dont actually think half the characters in fiction gain their strength from mass/chemical energy? Most of them hardly have muscles or size beyond normal humans.

No, unless you argue against Vampiric evolution which Raziel points out then I dont have to prove anything, until you can give a logical or factual reason why they should not change. Further, the evidence youve been spamming to try and claim the vampires fully evolved before they died more supports my notion here, otherwise if they stopped evoling and they died centuries ago they would be different wouldnt they, Vampires evolve often afterall. There are no SR caliber evolved vampires in BO2, Vorador if your refering to him would never have become alike to Kains sons, or their children.

Nice try? your trying to argue fundementals you dont understand and then sarcasticly and mockingly attempt a counter who is your superior by miles in this area, the soul not being in it or not means nothing, the soul is still fettered even if it cant animate the body hence why Dumah is standing by his corpse or why vampires cant just revive some other body.

Youd have to be able to take a force that would turn a person into slush or slice you in two to be able to regen first. Theres no damage though, all you got was an outdated (Kain seems to have gotten stronger by SR2) version of Kain with some pain.

In truth its you who dont recognise an insult, you sit there mocking me consistently while all I do is point out ignorance and flaws. Saying your "level" would only be an ad hominem if thats all I used to counter you, if you look back youll find I countered it as well as pointing out your problem. Vampires are always dead, stop trying to pull yet another red herring on me.

😆 Dumah spent centuries, you cant prove every Dumahim found dead was killed at the same time, afterall there are plenty kicking about and alive across Nosgoth. Of course its his "wrath", all Vampires are technically wraiths, some are just in bodies and some are not.

Originally posted by The Scenario

Yes because audiable pain is the only indication someone is actually in pain or damaged. please dont become a doctor. Because its not a small cut, its a weapon that strikes on several magcial levels, including magical and spiritual, for beings who draw all their power from their souls, how do you think this makes Kain feel? obvious really....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXGfjyPmCac#t=1m38s

Magma rocks, floating platforms. If you knew anything about the sun, those rocks should be vaporised, only thing I know of that can float rock on top that matches the image here is lava/magma. I have an advanced qualifcation in geology so I know what Magma is and have done a lot of studying on it 😉 As for what happens to it, I neither have to explain or mension why it did this funny little toon action, funny things happen in fiction especially toon ones. Hydrogen and nuclear emissions like a Star would A: turn bowser into jelly, B: turn the rocks that float around it into jelly and C: Turn the planetoids, you guessed it, into Jelly....theres a lot of things why thats nothing alike to a star but your just silly buggering me now. Until you have proof of its composition I suggest you keep back your arguments of durability.

😆 Is that a pirate ship? please prove that this pirate ship looking thing has some durability feats, although tbh dont bother, the whole scene proves what I have been saying, tiny little objects taking seconsd ot be swallowed, they should be shattered into piecies, if that if an object of high gravity was present.

Again, more evidence for my case, what the hell is "stardust"? and further, shes talking of them from Marios fiction standpoint, e.g. "baby stars" lol. And your still trying to claim they have all the same physical attributues of a real star? 🙄

But its a toon galaxy, meaning crying baby stars, that grow up to be "galaxies" some day, galaxies meaning whats initially a tiny solarsystem in the Marioverse. You have no credability to suggest any of this is any way comparable to real physics and stars in general. They dont act, look or have a history of being similiar.

Any stars with chunks of debris floating in an orbit only a meter or so from the surface? or a gravity that allows this (lower gravity than earth by many many times, e.g. hardly any mass for a celestial body) or even more interesting, large lumps of rock floating in them? 😄

Clearly they do evolve, because if your theory (which goes against the game, and with the only doubt being you, not the fiction or evidence from it) held up they would look younger or weaker than the Dumahim who did not die, e.g. those faceing Raziel throughout Nosgoth. if their identicle then your argument collapses, because in centuries Vampires change from looking fairly human and pristine to demons.

But you have no evidence from history that correlates to this, you just claimed evolved vampires centuries in the future are not different to BO2 era vamps? 😆 what ignorance;

Clearly no difference at all! Cant possibly be any changes! Stop trying to insult me and anyone who is not ignorant in LoK by trying to claim all the vampires are similiar, theres a reason why they "evolve".

we also have spears used in guns, oh look! Humans have spearguns in SR, problem solved!

Hardly, most if not everything youve posted is either irrelevent or something I can use better for my case. He can make small holes based on the evidence, youve yet to be able to argue this, just spam "he can wreck Kain" and on top of that, is the word "supernova" or "black hole" ever used in Super mario or is this just assumed by fans? 🙂

Originally posted by Burning thought
Never with his claws, he blasts you into bits with the reaver, when has Bowser ripped someone in half? Also your making red herrings again, the amount of fallacies you come out with. The whole "when has Raziel" nonsense is ridiculous when the guy would not have to have done something to be able to do it. So lets try the actual argument again, why wouldnt earth core pressures not turn their bodies into mulch if they were not durable?

I never claimed Bowser could rip people in half, but he shatters boulders and break down walls easily. You're claiming that Dumahim are durable because Raziel can't rip their arms off, when Raziel has never done this. To answer your question, they regenerate. Like I've been saying this whole time.

Not really, since we see vampires being more than a match for humans, let alone a lot of vampires against rag tag bands of surviving humans, my suggestion of launching weapons being used when we know of one is far more likely (even if we did not know of one) than humans giving off equel power to Raziel. Occam's Razor is a theory, only slightly more useful than your own and no, Occam's Razor indicates that the fewest assumptions is most likely, considering your assuming a vast number of things, some of which are impossible like humans besting Soul Reaver Vamp durability while I am simply suggesting Humans use a spear launcher they already seem to have. Soul reaver the game starts 1500 years its true, but thats at the beginning ,e.g. when Raziel and his brothers are still arguably prestine. A lot of time passes since then.

Where do we see vampires being more than a match for humans? Where do we see this launching weapon? Occam's razor is indeed the one with least assumption, and the assumption that "melee weapons will stay melee weapons" is fewer than "humans being unable to hurt vampires, turning a melee weapon into a ranged weapon, and this ranged weapon suddenly being able to hurt vampires." Not to mention you're just assuming vampires are durable by making up your own explanation when one is already given.

You cant prove they were killed centuries ago though.

I already did. You seem to have ignored it. Again.

Or long spearlike shafts with aerodynamic fins at the back. I would need evidence if I was argueing the fundamentals of Dumahim vs something, but Dumahim are not in this thread. My suggestions are counters to your daft suggestions, the difference is yours seems to be an argument trying to get somewhere, but stopped due to your inability to prove they were melee weapons.

Prongs =/= fins, and they are not that aerodynamic. Your claim still requires evidence, so get to it. Besides, I already have evidence that they're melee weapons; you just keep ignoring it.

Show me their traits, I have been asking for this evidence for the past few pages, show me a print screen close up of your comparison because in the video, they look smaller and many have no spears in them e.g., they should be revived unless they were not evolved (my theory).

If I could use print screen, I would. As it is, youtube's the best I've got. Best I can do is compare this revived adult Dumahim to this current adult Dumahim. They wouldn't necessarily be revived if they're missing huge parts of their bodies. The only ones I see that don't have staffs in them are too mangled to recognize. Of the ones with staffs, compare the arms. Adults have club arms. One of the speared ones, top left, has a club arm. It also has the thick feet adults are shown to have.

He seems to create the equivelant strength through supernatural gifts, similiar to vampires. You dont actually think half the characters in fiction gain their strength from mass/chemical energy? Most of them hardly have muscles or size beyond normal humans.

'k, we have established that Raziel has no durability. Just as planned.

No, unless you argue against Vampiric evolution which Raziel points out then I dont have to prove anything, until you can give a logical or factual reason why they should not change. Further, the evidence youve been spamming to try and claim the vampires fully evolved before they died more supports my notion here, otherwise if they stopped evoling and they died centuries ago they would be different wouldnt they, Vampires evolve often afterall. There are no SR caliber evolved vampires in BO2, Vorador if your refering to him would never have become alike to Kains sons, or their children.

You're asking me to prove a negative. Bad form. Your claim that vampires continue to evolve after death and you need to prove this. Again, living crocodiles resemble ancient ones, that's how we know their species is ancient. You'd need to prove they had another evolution if you want to claim they did.

Nice try? your trying to argue fundementals you dont understand and then sarcasticly and mockingly attempt a counter who is your superior by miles in this area, the soul not being in it or not means nothing, the soul is still fettered even if it cant animate the body hence why Dumah is standing by his corpse or why vampires cant just revive some other body.

More ad hominem, and do I spy an appeal to authority? No, it is stated that a dead vampire in the spectral realm becomes a vampire wraith, it has nothing to do with the physical body. Unless, of course, you have evidence that the body changes? Try using evidence, I find it helps when you want to make a point.

Youd have to be able to take a force that would turn a person into slush or slice you in two to be able to regen first. Theres no damage though, all you got was an outdated (Kain seems to have gotten stronger by SR2) version of Kain with some pain.

All the force is concentrated in such a small area, though, so only a very small part of them is turned to mush or sliced. That's the problem: Raziel's cuts are shallow. There's no time between Soul Reaver 1 and 2; in fact, the intro of Soul Reaver 2 is the end of Soul Reaver 1. So there's no time for Kain to have gotten stronger in.

In truth its you who dont recognise an insult, you sit there mocking me consistently while all I do is point out ignorance and flaws. Saying your "level" would only be an ad hominem if thats all I used to counter you, if you look back youll find I countered it as well as pointing out your problem. Vampires are always dead, stop trying to pull yet another red herring on me.

How am I mocking you? In any case, nice try on that wordplay, but you still need to prove that a vampire's body can evolve after the soul is separate from it. You don't think that's relevant?

😆 Dumah spent centuries, you cant prove every Dumahim found dead was killed at the same time, afterall there are plenty kicking about and alive across Nosgoth. Of course its his "wrath", all Vampires are technically wraiths, some are just in bodies and some are not.

They are stated to have been killed in an attack. Singular. If it was just one attack, then all the Dumahim killed in that one attack would have died at the same time, namely: during that one attack. Unless you have evidence of something else killing the Dumahim? I'm saying that Dumah became a vampire wraith because his soul spent time in the Spectral Realm, and he became a revived vampire when the wraith combine with the body. Not all vampires are wraiths, only those that "fettered too long in the spectral realm."

Yes because audiable pain is the only indication someone is actually in pain or damaged. please dont become a doctor. Because its not a small cut, its a weapon that strikes on several magcial levels, including magical and spiritual, for beings who draw all their power from their souls, how do you think this makes Kain feel? obvious really....

Cute. Kain really has no indication of any pain or damage, unless you have evidence. Can you prove that the wraith blade strike on several magical levels? Again, Kain was incapacitated by the loss of his far more than he was from a single wraith blade strike.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXGfjyPmCac#t=1m38s

Magma rocks, floating platforms. If you knew anything about the sun, those rocks should be vaporised, only thing I know of that can float rock on top that matches the image here is lava/magma. I have an advanced qualifcation in geology so I know what Magma is and have done a lot of studying on it 😉 As for what happens to it, I neither have to explain or mension why it did this funny little toon action, funny things happen in fiction especially toon ones. Hydrogen and nuclear emissions like a Star would A: turn bowser into jelly, B: turn the rocks that float around it into jelly and C: Turn the planetoids, you guessed it, into Jelly....theres a lot of things why thats nothing alike to a star but your just silly buggering me now. Until you have proof of its composition I suggest you keep back your arguments of durability.

Oh, so you're just going to ignore the supernova, then, because it doesn't fit your definition of magma? You are aware that toonforce is bull, right? Things work as they are shown to, and this is shown to work as a supernova. Bowser is durable enough to avoid being turned into jelly, obviously, and there are plenty of fictional materials that can take star level radiation. You cannot just dismiss me with "silly buggering" when you can't answer a question, so please continue, because so far the likeness to a star is outweighing the differences.

😆 Is that a pirate ship? please prove that this pirate ship looking thing has some durability feats, although tbh dont bother, the whole scene proves what I have been saying, tiny little objects taking seconsd ot be swallowed, they should be shattered into piecies, if that if an object of high gravity was present.

They are being shattered into pieces, did you miss that or are you ignoring? Their durability sufficient for spaceflight, but it's not like it matters since you don't appear to have watched the whole video.

Again, more evidence for my case, what the hell is "stardust"? and further, shes talking of them from Marios fiction standpoint, e.g. "baby stars" lol. And your still trying to claim they have all the same physical attributues of a real star? 🙄

You don't know what Stardust is and you're trying to lecture me is astronomy? That would be the remains of stars after they go nova, obviously. Baby stars would be Lumas, who can grow up to be galaxies, at least do some research into the game. They do retain the properties of planets and stars, as I hope you are aware.

But its a toon galaxy, meaning crying baby stars, that grow up to be "galaxies" some day, galaxies meaning whats initially a tiny solarsystem in the Marioverse. You have no credability to suggest any of this is any way comparable to real physics and stars in general. They dont act, look or have a history of being similiar.

"Toon" does not mean what you think it means. As they are shown, these stars can go nova and form black holes, that is very much looking, acting, and having history of being similar. Seriously, balls of magma don't go nova, you are making things up.

Any stars with chunks of debris floating in an orbit only a meter or so from the surface? or a gravity that allows this (lower gravity than earth by many many times, e.g. hardly any mass for a celestial body) or even more interesting, large lumps of rock floating in them? 😄

Who knows? Those must be some pretty durable materials to survive near a star. You're not really getting anywhere with this.

Clearly they do evolve, because if your theory (which goes against the game, and with the only doubt being you, not the fiction or evidence from it) held up they would look younger or weaker than the Dumahim who did not die, e.g. those faceing Raziel throughout Nosgoth. if their identicle then your argument collapses, because in centuries Vampires change from looking fairly human and pristine to demons.

Where does it go against the game? The only thing referred to is souls, not the body. You would still need to prove that they did evolve, or how often they change. After all, the opening cutscene showed them as looking human after 1000 years.

But you have no evidence from history that correlates to this, you just claimed evolved vampires centuries in the future are not different to BO2 era vamps? 😆 what ignorance;

No, you missed the point. It was you that claimed that only vampires raised from Kain's soul could evolve, and Blood Omen 2 proves you wrong.

Clearly no difference at all! Cant possibly be any changes! Stop trying to insult me and anyone who is not ignorant in LoK by trying to claim all the vampires are similiar, theres a reason why they "evolve".

Stop getting my arguments wrong.

we also have spears used in guns, oh look! Humans have spearguns in SR, problem solved!

Show me the speargun being used.

Hardly, most if not everything youve posted is either irrelevent or something I can use better for my case. He can make small holes based on the evidence, youve yet to be able to argue this, just spam "he can wreck Kain" and on top of that, is the word "supernova" or "black hole" ever used in Super mario or is this just assumed by fans? 🙂

There's really no need to be so rude. Everything I've said has been backed up with evidence, and the evidence says hat Bowser is capable of harming Kain in the same way Raziel did. Is it ever said Kain can take star core pressures or that just assumed by fans?

Originally posted by The Scenario

You keep going on about how he can "wreck Kain" or "smash him in half", hes never done it so it seems he cant wreck a living thing since hes never done it! goes for a lot of fictional beings by your logic (or lack of?). he cant rip their arms off, their heads, cut them in half or tear out large areas of their bodies despite his ridiculous strength.

Vorador taking out the circle, Kain taking down the entire Sarafan, vampires taking over Nosgoth and all the kingdoms. Further, Kains army has only been beaten by Hylden sorcery, it cut a path in BO2 through all the towns until it reached the Hylden Lord. Further, check up on BO2 and Umahs dialogue, she points out vampires are superior to humans but tbh your silly buggering again, its clear throughout the games the humans are so far below Vamps, its just not every single vamp can take on large numbers of humans. Your the one assuming their melee, you cant compare it to melee until weve seen it used as a melee weapon, until then your just comparing apples to oranges, yes their both fruit but the differences are there.

I agree Dumah was, where does he mension each member of his brood?

Why? how do you know? technically any shaft can be aerodynamic. My claim has just as much, if not more evidence than your case, which has zero. You keep ignoring my counters.

How can you not use it? dont you have a keyboard? And how is showing one adult from one scene and comparing to another help you with the ones with spears in them? it doesnt, my argument was never that the revived one in your first video was not evolved. Also prove this case, why wouldnt they be revived? The Dumahim in the water revived and healed fine and he was dissolved like acid as per the canon, if hes been dissolving for as long as you belive (centuries?) then its far worse than a few chunks missing, dissolution is even more damage than any spear further how do you explain how these vamps got chunks lost? a spear does not do that....sounds like magic or a larger weapon was at work here 🙂

Its your claim, "vampires do not evolve" technically I dont have to do anything apart from adhere to the games canon.

I think ill ignore your claims concerning fallacies, you dont know what they are. It does since A: Its still fettered to the body and B: The body dissolves into ash if you devour the soul. 😆 a hypocrite I see, since you have neither made your point OR shown any legitimate evidence.

Energy travels unless the force is stopped, so either you claim their too durable therefore the force stops (like Kain can do) OR, they turn to mush or fall in half. Proving Raziels claws cannot slice through Dumahim like their paper, if he could he would not have to change his tactics. Then it was retconned, further it looks more to me like the interuption of Kains spell causes him harm, not Raziel since Kain keeps holding his face.

Prove the soul is "seperate" soundsl ike a claim to me. Clearly its not, Vampires are always dead.

The ones in the courtyard yes, but Nosgoth tells us not all Dumahim were killed during the attack ,since there are many around Nosgoth. So far we have no evidence to suggest the Dumahim was killed by anything, other than the water it was in.

Pain is irrelevent, damage comes from a strike which Kain has shown, your only counter is "he did not show pain 5 seconds later!", you dont have a case, again....you argue the Wraith blade is not magic now? despite its elemental powers and its soul devouring capabilities? go and play LoK.

Originally posted by The Scenario

What Supernova? we dont really know what that is, some toon explosion, since we know balls of magma do not Supernova. Things work as they are shown to, and this ball of magma is shown to be thus, its also shown to be small and its explosion (or imposion) is not shown to be anything other than that. Toonforce is consistent with how the game is portrayed. It has no likeliness to a star though....apart from what you have dubbed a Supernova, I think it having a "youth" form where it cries like a baby to grow up to becoming the star completly counters your comparisons to real stars anyway.

durlaugh, durability sufficent! more lulz since its a damn pirate ship, their just flying, you dont know if Mario takes into account any durability or such due to its toon physics, especially when their blackholes are more like plugholes on refuse, speaking of refuse your argument just went down your "toonhole".

Cosmic dust...not star dust silly. Yes because thats all comparable to real stars, let me go and get my big book of science....nope! nothing about baby numas growing up to become stars. Only the galaxy technically is the Star.

😆 I meant to SR era status, your comprehension of LoK is zero, again, go and look up some of the games fundamentals.

Youve yet to show me those weapons that killed the Dumahim being used so why should I show you a speargun being used?

Dont dodge the questions, is "supernova" and "black hole" actually stated? Because a ball of lava, with rock floating in it that grew from a cryng little toon star has no relation to the sun. Unlike Kains durabiltiy thats been mathamatically proven, not that your comparison is alike.