Final Destination [Maximum] Vol.9 Bowser X Kain

Originally posted by Burning thought
After wraith blade exposure and a fight, not max power. Further, the current math pressures suggest Kain has star core pressures afterall so I was right, infact hes gone from 9 million tons per square inch to 100+ million durability so I doubt bowsers even going to pierce the first layer of skin.

No one agrees with your pressures, why do you insist on using it?

Whats regen got to do with not being able to rip someone apart with your bare hands? your not making any sense.

What about "show me Raziel trying to rip a vampire apart," is so difficult? Honestly, at least support the claim.

Not at all, I think you need to check them and find out one is a pole axe and the other looks like an aerodynamic bolt. Since when has size got to do with what a weapon can launch? I dont have to prove it reaches 9 million tons, my counter argument does not have to prove htat to be correct while your claim is that human strength can.

Okay, something is wrong here. Either I'm linking the picture wrong, or you are blind. Let's just assume for a second that I can link a picture correctly, so let me ask how the heck you are not seeing the resemblance of these weapons? A long staff, with two prongs on one end and a single spike on the other. This description matches both weapons perfectly, where are you seeing the difference? Further, you are, in fact, making a claim so you must prove it. You want to claim that a 2 foot long crossbow can launch a 6 foot long staff with enough force to produce 9 million tons of PSI, you must prove it.

So go ahead and prove your claim, please.

Again, no evidence to suggest this. BO2 to Elder Kain is like a layer of new memories but they dont replace the old also your claim that he lost all his magic powers was not really based on anything. He was walking about with a head in BO2.....

Hey, hey, stop trying to dodge the point. Vorador. Survival. Give a reason and evidence or you don't get to claim it.

This furnace reaches full potential and seems to explode as well in a few seconds, proven. Also this furnace stuff is your claim, you go and prove their speed.

Are you refusing to give evidence? It's your claim that a furnace burns wood or melts metal faster than Bowser can, so it's your job to prove it. I've proven that Bowser can destroy trees, bricks, and stone in seconds, I'm not going to do your work for you.

This forum has a function called Private messenging and we have some calculations together at the moment, their far higher than even my estimates.

Cool.

Its a canon ability, I dont have to prove "he can" do a canon ability. You dont really seem to have a clue what your doing so to try and make up for your lack of knowledge you would rather than claim the same alike to "my power does tooo!!" reasoning.

It's a canon immunity, I don't have to prove "he can" resist a canon soul steal. I just don't think you're grasping how similar these arguments really are.

How can he regen surface skin? over what? according to your claim his got a great hole there.

Exactly, he can't regenerate the surface skin anymore. Glad we finally settled this.

You have no evidence, you grasping at straws e.g. 1-2k year old weapons being available to flamethrower/projectile weapon toting humans. no, yours suffers from being based on poor interpretations, arrogant claims that those interpretations (far more ignorant than my own) are fact and then try and force it on me as if thats going to convince me. Give me some sort of grounds why humans who have access to flamethrowers and projectile weapons dropped their equipment in favour of 2k year old "poleaxes" (not evident either)?

You don't actually have any evidence, though, which is severely hampering your argument. Everything you have is purely theoretical, and has nothing to support it but your insistence. There's no flamethrowers, no ranged weapons, no launching device. For your argument to work, you need to show them in use. I have a cutscene that shows exactly what weapons were used, notable in that the canon shows neither flamethrowers nor crossbows, and certainly not that made up staff launcher. I have the identical Sarafan staffs matching those used to kill Dumahim. I have confirmation that humans won with melee weapons. Why would I need to give a reason? All I needed was the evidence, and it speaks for itself. No matter what you say, the fact is that the humans did not use flamethrowers or ranged weapons, and instead impaled the Dumahim on staffs.

"with more ease", "almost always works". No real evidence again.

I showed it stealing a soul. This is scripted to not work on Bowser. What more need be said?

Not scripted if a player has to choose to use the card.

So the dimension reaver isn't scripted because the player has to choose to use it. Good to know. Still, Bowser is scripted to resist the card, so you still haven't made a sufficient distinction.

I dont have to, otherwise you prove Bowsers powers can affect a Vampire. Its a silly question.

Refusing to give evidence, count #3. Prove that the spell affects nonhuman targets, and stop ignoring the spell description. How about an animal? Show that, at least, since you seem to think they'd have less resistance than a human. Which powers do you want Bowser to prove, specifically? Most of Bowser's abilities are proven to affect vampires already. Janos actually proves that vampires are vulnerable to being transformed, since he was turned into The Beast.

It does not single out anyone, Kain just points out human minds are fragile, I have yet to see anything that suggests bowsers mind is any less fragile, if anything a couple of plumbers pissing about in it proves it is fairly vulnerable. So you think you can ignore your own logic AND claim a no limits fallacy on the star rod just because it does not specifically say their "fragile" or "vulnerable" despite it showing they are vulnerable since it works on them, your logic is all over the place. Stun has no canon reason, infact in canon its a magical shock to the brain, thats prove nto work on beings with at least human resistance. Why oh why would a shock suddenly not work on anyone else? no reaosn at all.

Just show it working on something nonhuman, it should be easy since so many Blood Omen enemies aren't human. Human minds are, in fact, the only one singled out as fragile, so you would have to prove that nonhuman minds are fragile as well, if you want to prove it. Further, I didn't actually think I would have to spell this out for you: The Star Rod was not stated to be limited to certain targets. You of course ignored the part where I stated that resistance would work, just because you wanted an excuse to call a fallacy where none exists. With the Star Rod, the Star Spirits are not stated to be especially vulnerable or "fragile" to its power, and the Rod does affect other creatures in various ways, not just the Star Spirits.

Well in a way they do, if he does not have propper bones, muscles etc then you cannot gauge his mass, weight, forces he can control/use the same way we do on a biological entity. 😆 youve shown an unclear image and then said yourself (the game did not) that no blood was evident when we dont even know what blood looks like at Marios micro level. Also you dont have that evidence, if anything Kains proven he can tank things beyond anything Bowser has ever done, not sure what you think your evidence is? a country sized ball of lava exploding? pff....

Well, to be honest, I haven't been treating Bowser like a biological entity for exactly that reason. I just go based on what he's done, which mimics living creatures while not actually being like them. Since he has no blood, his bones do not produce blood cells, and in the 3 videos I have shown you, no blood is even hinted at, the bones are white and dead, and Mario interacts with cannons and switches where blood should be. In point of fact, a country sized ball of nuclear fusion exploding into a black hole is above what Kain has been shown to be able to survive. Bowser's just tougher.

Lasers have "light" as part of their nature but unlike real lasers, fictonal ones can be extremely slow, you just pulling up words to try and disregard what we actually see is lulzy.

Keep trying to ignore canon statements, I actually find it pretty funny.

"likely" show me this happening or evidence to suggest it because the Alchemist just having fleshy tissue in his lab does not quite cut the whole story of it traveling across Dark Eden outside the bubble. The mutant is an example and twisting life kinda covers it too.

Well their inside the castle, they should not be transformed. Theres no canon that there are humans there tbh, their just things a player percieves, thats like you claiming it did not change the "floating tarot cards" either.

Anarcrothe's lab contains the corpses of both "man and beast." The mutants found in Dark Eden are combinations of humans and other creatures, and the bubble is not indicated to fuse things together and it should not logically be able to do so unless they entered at the same time. There is no reason for the castle to be unaffected, since it is inside the bubble, and there are humans canonically inside the lab, in addition to the human enemies in Dark Eden, and you have not proven that the prisoners are just a mechanic. Not sure what you're talking about with the tarot cards, since I never mentioned them and they're just items anyway.

😆 inconsistency, its canon that the dome affects all these things. I do because a mutated human created by magic is evident just outside the dome that Kain points out warps everything that it touches, as it touches it. Well thats what the player sees, they also see a lot of gameplay mechanics and items but Kain does not mension any of this in canon, the only thing he does mension is human remains inside the fortress.

And it's also canon that it only affected life. Can't have both. Again, it's not just a mutated human, it's a fusion that has been grafted together. Who do you think the "creator" is that Kain mentions? Kain states he admires the creator's ingenuity, which indicates that it's a planned creature as opposed to a random mutation. Since there's no reason for the fortress to be different, seeing as it's inside the bubble, it remains a contradiction that the humans are not affected. This in addition to the human enemies outside the fortress but still in Dark Eden.

😆 does not have a "stated" limit, neither do most of Kains powers, maybe ill just claim they have no limits....oh my gosh, a no limit fallacy!

Again, I thought you could figure this one out on your own. The Star Rod does not have a stated limit on what species it can potentially target. The Stun spell does. Please go right ahead and prove that the Stun can affect nonhumans, though, or at the very least that nonhumans are just as "fragile."

Originally posted by The Scenario

not my pressure, Mirrodinis formula with Bloodrains numbers. Was more than I originally thought so even i dont agree with my own numbers now based on enegy, rather than force. Seems everyone was wrong.

Not sure its even relevent, me showing him trying to do it.

I think your machine must have errors trying to load images so you cant see them. I dont need to prove the tons part, your the one claiming human strength can do it, I just need a counter claim, tbh I dont believe humans used either, point is it does not matter.

Since when do I need a reason?. all I know is he survived, simple.

Playing silly bugger or ignorance to what a furnace can do is not going to impress me.

You dont seem to grasp the arguments at all 🙁

Not when theres a big hole ripped into his chest, I never said vamps can regen so deep.

Theres no fact there at all, youve made up some daft interpretation that goes against logic and trying to ram home that your interpretation is fact, go and prove your claims.

You showed it luckily affect some random spirit, I never argued it could not affect spirits silly.

huh? 😆 dont know how you got that out of my post.

Stupid question/strawman or red herring count 3.

Thier not "singled out", their just mensioned as fragile. herring count 4, you could make a flock with your herrings. It just shows their fragile to it, since afteall it works, your grasp of this is so poor, its not even worth trying to squabble if your not going to debate it.

Prove its nuclear fusion, thats not hinted at in the game, a ball of lava does not create nuclear fission....

Well it seems were both comedians with your hilarious ignoring of the scene your trying to use and invent your own speed.

Originally posted by The Scenario

The castle is in the eye of the storm, the place has different magic inside. "just items anyway" their a gameplay mechanic just like any other, whats your next claim? that its canon all the humans say "please, hepl me kind sir!"? I would not put it past you.

The bubble is the creator, since the Alchemist is not hinted at actually bringing these beings to life. Infact the bubble expanding is the only confirmed form of their magic shown.

Wrong, Kain himself simply points out humans are fragile, theres no stated limit. Comprehension ftw!

Originally posted by Burning thought
not my pressure, Mirrodinis formula with Bloodrains numbers. Was more than I originally thought so even i dont agree with my own numbers now based on enegy, rather than force. Seems everyone was wrong.

Cool.

Not sure its even relevent, me showing him trying to do it.

Well, you're trying to claim that a vampire can't be ripped in half, with nothing to support it other than the fact that it has never happened. I don't think that's a very good position.

I think your machine must have errors trying to load images so you cant see them. I dont need to prove the tons part, your the one claiming human strength can do it, I just need a counter claim, tbh I dont believe humans used either, point is it does not matter.

Why is it that "counter claim" seems to translate to "I don't need evidence"? Because that's not what it means, as you still need to prove claims. My evidence has vampires impaled on melee weapons wielded by humans, this is more than enough to prove that, shockhorror, humans can impale vampires with melee weapons.

Since when do I need a reason?. all I know is he survived, simple.

I'm questioning the mechanism he used to survive, i.e: regeneration, which was the original claim. The argument actually hinges on whether or not Vorador regenerated his head or was revived some other way, and until we determine if it was regeneration, you can't really claim that his head grew back.

Playing silly bugger or ignorance to what a furnace can do is not going to impress me.

Refusing to give evidence when asked is not going to help when I report you. Your current claim is that a furnace can reduce wood to ash, stone to dust, or metal to slag in less than a second. I am asking you to prove this assertion, as most real life furnaces I know of take minutes or hours to do their jobs.

You dont seem to grasp the arguments at all 🙁

I don't pretend to grasp these calcs, and I don't think you should, either. Neither of us knows enough math to make this work the way you want it to.

Not when theres a big hole ripped into his chest, I never said vamps can regen so deep.

I'm not saying you have. I'm asking why you think Kain can have internal injuries and regenerate his surface skin one minute, then say the deeper wound (as in, an internal one) would prevent surface regeneration.

Theres no fact there at all, youve made up some daft interpretation that goes against logic and trying to ram home that your interpretation is fact, go and prove your claims.

My claim: Humans killed the Dumahim by impaling them with melee weapons.

My evidence: Dumahim, after having been impaled by humans with melee weapons.

Claim status: Proven.

Your claim: Maybe the humans used flamethrowers and shot six foot staffs out of two foot long crossbows?

Your evidence: I still have yet to see any.

Claim status: Unproven.

You showed it luckily affect some random spirit, I never argued it could not affect spirits silly.

A sproing-oing is not a spirit, though. It's a monster, and the card took its soul. Speaking of which, Bowser is immune to the soul steal.

huh? 😆 dont know how you got that out of my post.

It's your argument, as applied to your argument. Essentially, I notice that the things you say about the catch card also apply to the dimension reaver, and I point this out by mirroring your argument against itself. So far it seems effective.

Stupid question/strawman or red herring count 3.

...and that's the only thing you got out of the post? There was more stuff there, like me asking you to prove the Stun spell affects nonhuman targets.

Thier not "singled out", their just mensioned as fragile. herring count 4, you could make a flock with your herrings. It just shows their fragile to it, since afteall it works, your grasp of this is so poor, its not even worth trying to squabble if your not going to debate it.

I'm not sure you know what a red herring is, since as a fish it would be a "school," not a "flock." Further, I'm not actually trying to distract you from anything. You are assuming that all creatures have "fragile" minds, when in reality only humans are designated as such. You'd need to prove that anything nonhuman also has a fragile mind. Or you can just play the game and see that the spell only affects humans regardless. Scripted effect, you see.

Prove its nuclear fusion, thats not hinted at in the game, a ball of lava does not create nuclear fission....

Stars utilize nuclear fusion. Since it's a star, it uses nuclear fusion. This isn't hard. It is hinted at, though, since balls of lava can't go supernova, since that is something that stars do. So it goes something like this: It goes nova --> It's a star --> It's powered by nuclear fusion.

Well it seems were both comedians with your hilarious ignoring of the scene your trying to use and invent your own speed.

There's a direct, canon statement that Boomboxers attack with sound. That's actually the complete opposite of inventing my own speed, and an outright lie on your part.

The castle is in the eye of the storm, the place has different magic inside. "just items anyway" their a gameplay mechanic just like any other, whats your next claim? that its canon all the humans say "please, hepl me kind sir!"? I would not put it past you.

Is there any evidence that there is even an "eye" in the tower? Sounds like something you just made up, personally. What about the items' appearance is gameplay mechanics? Storing a magical effect in a card isn't unheard of. And then, I don't see a problem with prisoners asking for help, and it is their canon dialogue.

The bubble is the creator, since the Alchemist is not hinted at actually bringing these beings to life. Infact the bubble expanding is the only confirmed form of their magic shown.

The bubble has ingenuity? That's more of a trait for people, specifically the creatively inclined. You're essentially claiming that the bubble can think right now. And still nothing about the fusion of two unrelated creatures?

Wrong, Kain himself simply points out humans are fragile, theres no stated limit. Comprehension ftw!

You're the one assuming non-humans are fragile, too. Given the quote, there is no actual reason to do so. Please prove that non-human minds are fragile.

Wow, I'm finally back down to single posts.

Just to put it out there again; whether you use base weight, joules and now pascals(calced) Bowser is still in the lead in strength. So if you believe Kain can or can't be pierced by Raziel, Bowser can.

Originally posted by The Scenario

I think its fine when you realise the person who should be able to points out he has to mess around finding tactical areas to kill them with, such as getting them in water or sunlight.

Because I dont give a damn what killed them, as long as theres no evidence for your argument which there is not then I can make as many unfounded claims as I want until I really want to prove what happened to the Dumahim (I dont, their irrelevent and not in this thread).

I never said his head grew back....when did I say this?

So what if it takes hours? the LoK one takes seconds to create force to blow off a door, it combines several forces.

You dont understand, I do.

Because its not regenerating over anything, I dont think they can regerate once a large area like that has been carved. Hence why doing extensive damage like blowing them into bits or burning their parts away stops them from regen.

Your evidence is based on your interpretation of what you think the weapon was.

Wrong, your interpretation simply falls on top of your claim.

I never said "maybe they used flamethrowers", I am questioning your logic why humans who use flamethrowers and long range weapons dropped those weapons for 2000 year old spears, your claims are all illogical and all over the place.

He cant be immune to something that never canonically touched him. Also, boss gameplay mechanics do not counter anyway. Gameplay damage/effects are more or less always mechanics, hence why you cant claim Kains sword is blunt because Sarafan seem to take many hits from his sword nor can I claim bowser is weak because his punches cannot one hit kill a fat plumber.

Does it? because I am yet to be convinced by your claim/belief so how do you gauge it was effective?

No, I am assuming that any creature that has just as, if not more fragile a mind than a humans is just as equellay vulnerable.

Thats named a star, its not one however because a real star is not only larger but gives off enormous heat, just like how the mario planets are more alike to tiny balls of earth, brick or w/e, you cant just use a name and ignore what the fiction displays, kinda like the old "sonic weapons". not sure what it does.

So what if they attack with sound? You cant assume all sound, in all fictional universes move at base earth sonic speeds.

The fact nobody on the tower, or inside is affected and that the affects around and inside the tower are unique to that of Dark Eden. Its also logical, you seem to ignore the logic part.

People created the bubble.

Why would I assume any other being, without more resistance than a human has more likely survival? again, your back to claiming anything thats not worked on a being in their universe is apprently not afffected, Kains immune to bowser by that logic.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Just to put it out there again; whether you use base weight, joules and now pascals(calced) Bowser is still in the lead in strength. So if you believe Kain can or can't be pierced by Raziel, Bowser can.

yet to be calculated in the thread, pressure is not simply strength. Although, that logic still does not ring true. Also thats just the top layer of Kains skin, skin also has volume, then muscle under that, then bone etc, best bowser could potentially do atm is create a scratch on Kain.

Originally posted by Burning thought
I think its fine when you realise the person who should be able to points out he has to mess around finding tactical areas to kill them with, such as getting them in water or sunlight.

That's more like making assumptions based on very little. There's not actually any evidence, just a guess based on the game's battle system. Raziel is modifying his tactics, true, but "Raziel's tactics" do not include ripping dudes in half. He claws at things, and he modifies the clawing.

Because I dont give a damn what killed them, as long as theres no evidence for your argument which there is not then I can make as many unfounded claims as I want until I really want to prove what happened to the Dumahim (I dont, their irrelevent and not in this thread).

You ignoring evidence =/= absence of evidence. I have presented, repeatedly, all the evidence required of me to prove this point. I have shown you the cutscene of impaled Dumahim, I have given you the statement that humans defeated the Dumahim, I have even compared the Sarafan staffs to weapons used against the Dumahim and found them identical. Like or not, this does prove that humans killed the Dumahim in melee, and you cannot simply dismiss it by saying there is no evidence. I have given more than enough evidence, so if you want to claim different, you need evidence of your own.

I never said his head grew back....when did I say this?

I claimed that vampires could not regenerate from limb removal or decapitation, and used Vorador as an example. Your counter-claim was that Vorador was alive in Blood Omen 2. Explain to me how exactly you planned to use Vorador as a counter to regeneration failure if Vorador did not actually regenerate. I'm guessing you simply misunderstood the claim, since this would lead to you indirectly claiming that vampires could regenerate limbs and fail to regenerate deep wounds at the same time.

So what if it takes hours? the LoK one takes seconds to create force to blow off a door, it combines several forces.

We are not talking about force, which barely matters here. Vampires are not explicitly super-weak to force. We are talking about heat and open flame, which vampire are super-weak to, and which Bowser is still superior in unless you can find a melting or burning feat in a time comparable to Bowser's flame.

You dont understand, I do.

Pointless.

Because its not regenerating over anything, I dont think they can regerate once a large area like that has been carved. Hence why doing extensive damage like blowing them into bits or burning their parts away stops them from regen.

Sure, why not. Fine, I'll concede Kain being able to regenerate shallow flesh wounds, but Bowser will still going to be doing more than that.

Your evidence is based on your interpretation of what you think the weapon was.

Wrong, your interpretation simply falls on top of your claim.

I never said "maybe they used flamethrowers", I am questioning your logic why humans who use flamethrowers and long range weapons dropped those weapons for 2000 year old spears, your claims are all illogical and all over the place.

Your dismissal is based on nothing. Literally nothing. Several key features (staff, two prongs, spike, even the impalement use,) undeniably match both weapons. You're still trying to claim that six foot long staffs are actually ranged ammunition fired from a siege weapon you refuse to give evidence for. Without that siege weapon, and a feasible way to use it, melee is the only option. You're going to have to face these facts sooner or later.

The evidence does not show flamethrowers or ranged, so I see no reason to factor them in. Look at the cutscene, do you see a flamethrower? No, just impaled vampires. Do you see a ranged weapon or crossbow bolt? No, just impaled vampires on six foot staffs. It doesn't matter what the humans did not use, for my claim the only thing that matters is that they used staffs.

He cant be immune to something that never canonically touched him. Also, boss gameplay mechanics do not counter anyway. Gameplay damage/effects are more or less always mechanics, hence why you cant claim Kains sword is blunt because Sarafan seem to take many hits from his sword nor can I claim bowser is weak because his punches cannot one hit kill a fat plumber.

Kain can't react to something he never canonically used. See how that works? It applies to both, after all. Then it's a scripted event, showing Bowser's resistance to such things. Feel free to flip-flop on fairness, friend. (Mario is more durable than you seem to think, by the way.)

Does it? because I am yet to be convinced by your claim/belief so how do you gauge it was effective?

Explaining it would likely come too close to flaming for my tastes. Suffice to say you can't seem to counter it.

No, I am assuming that any creature that has just as, if not more fragile a mind than a humans is just as equellay vulnerable.

Which is fallacious in itself. Why would a non-human mind be just as fragile as a human one? Considering that in game it affects nothing non-human, I see no reason to believe that the canon differs. In fact, the "fragile" quote canonically supports humans having a special vulnerability nothing else has more than anything.

Thats named a star, its not one however because a real star is not only larger but gives off enormous heat, just like how the mario planets are more alike to tiny balls of earth, brick or w/e, you cant just use a name and ignore what the fiction displays, kinda like the old "sonic weapons". not sure what it does.

You have failed to address the supernova and subsequent black hole, both features of real stars, that do indicate that Bowser's star is, in fact, a star. It also gives off enormous amounts of heat, seeing as Mario can be burned by it. Bowser and Mario are just extremely durable, and Bowser in particular is nearly immune to heat. The fiction actually displays the traits of real stars, so what were you saying?

So what if they attack with sound? You cant assume all sound, in all fictional universes move at base earth sonic speeds.

Actually, I can. All universes are assumed to have earth-like physical properties unless there is a canon difference in the physical laws. Otherwise you can't assume that gravity in Legacy of Kain is the same as earth and that makes all strength feats worthless.

The fact nobody on the tower, or inside is affected and that the affects around and inside the tower are unique to that of Dark Eden. Its also logical, you seem to ignore the logic part.

There's not really a logical reason, though. None of the humans outside he tower are affected, either, so it doesn't seem to be that. The only thing Kain notes about the tower is that space was distorted; if there was no effect inside, don't you think Kain would've mentioned it?

People created the bubble.

Cool. Failed to address: Creatures grafted together. Why say "creator," singular, if there is more than one behind it?

Why would I assume any other being, without more resistance than a human has more likely survival? again, your back to claiming anything thats not worked on a being in their universe is apprently not afffected, Kains immune to bowser by that logic.

Because non-humans are not noted to be fragile. Nice try, but until you prove that non-humans are fragile, you've got nothing. Besides, try playing the game. Using the spell on anything other than a human just wastes magic power.

Originally posted by The Scenario
That's more like making assumptions based on very little. There's not actually any evidence, just a guess based on the game's battle system. Raziel is modifying his tactics, true, but "Raziel's tactics" do not include ripping dudes in half. He claws at things, and he modifies the clawing.

You ignoring evidence =/= absence of evidence. I have presented, repeatedly, all the evidence required of me to prove this point. I have shown you the cutscene of impaled Dumahim, I have given you the statement that humans defeated the Dumahim, I have even compared the Sarafan staffs to weapons used against the Dumahim and found them identical. Like or not, this does prove that humans killed the Dumahim in melee, and you cannot simply dismiss it by saying there is no evidence. I have given more than enough evidence, so if you want to claim different, you need evidence of your own.

I claimed that vampires could not regenerate from limb removal or decapitation, and used Vorador as an example. Your counter-claim was that Vorador was alive in Blood Omen 2. Explain to me how exactly you planned to use Vorador as a counter to regeneration failure if Vorador did not actually regenerate. I'm guessing you simply misunderstood the claim, since this would lead to you indirectly claiming that vampires could regenerate limbs and fail to regenerate deep wounds at the same time.

We are not talking about force, which barely matters here. Vampires are not explicitly super-weak to force. We are talking about heat and open flame, which vampire are super-weak to, and which Bowser is still superior in unless you can find a melting or burning feat in a time comparable to Bowser's flame.

Pointless.

Sure, why not. Fine, I'll concede Kain being able to regenerate shallow flesh wounds, but Bowser will still going to be doing more than that.

Your dismissal is based on nothing. Literally nothing. Several key features (staff, two prongs, spike, even the impalement use,) undeniably match both weapons. You're still trying to claim that six foot long staffs are actually ranged ammunition fired from a siege weapon you refuse to give evidence for. Without that siege weapon, and a feasible way to use it, melee is the only option. You're going to have to face these facts sooner or later.

The evidence does not show flamethrowers or ranged, so I see no reason to factor them in. Look at the cutscene, do you see a flamethrower? No, just impaled vampires. Do you see a ranged weapon or crossbow bolt? No, just impaled vampires on six foot staffs. It doesn't matter what the humans did not use, for my claim the only thing that matters is that they used staffs.

Kain can't react to something he never canonically used. See how that works? It applies to both, after all. Then it's a scripted event, showing Bowser's resistance to such things. Feel free to flip-flop on fairness, friend. (Mario is more durable than you seem to think, by the way.)

Explaining it would likely come too close to flaming for my tastes. Suffice to say you can't seem to counter it.

Which is fallacious in itself. Why would a non-human mind be just as fragile as a human one? Considering that in game it affects nothing non-human, I see no reason to believe that the canon differs. In fact, the "fragile" quote canonically supports humans having a special vulnerability nothing else has more than anything.

You have failed to address the supernova and subsequent black hole, both features of real stars, that do indicate that Bowser's star is, in fact, a star. It also gives off enormous amounts of heat, seeing as Mario can be burned by it. Bowser and Mario are just extremely durable, and Bowser in particular is nearly immune to heat. The fiction actually displays the traits of real stars, so what were you saying?

Actually, I can. All universes are assumed to have earth-like physical properties unless there is a canon difference in the physical laws. Otherwise you can't assume that gravity in Legacy of Kain is the same as earth and that makes all strength feats worthless.

There's not really a logical reason, though. None of the humans outside he tower are affected, either, so it doesn't seem to be that. The only thing Kain notes about the tower is that space was distorted; if there was no effect inside, don't you think Kain would've mentioned it?

Cool. Failed to address: Creatures grafted together. Why say "creator," singular, if there is more than one behind it?

Because non-humans are not noted to be fragile. Nice try, but until you prove that non-humans are fragile, you've got nothing. Besides, try playing the game. Using the spell on anything other than a human just wastes magic power.

Why would you go from clawring which was regular practice to him to messing about with options in the environment if his own power was not enough? Your logic does not make sense.

Youve made the claim that some staffs were similiar to ancient weapons and find a rough comaprison of "they both had spikes on bottom and bits sticking out top!", this does not prove anything tbh. I dont care, all I have to do is claim you wrong and make more likely claims based on the fact Raziel cannot just shred them with claws.

Well he was alive, whether he regenerated or not was irrelevent. Also I dont know about limb removal but decapitation seems like the end unless you take Vorador into account. But Kain can exist as nothing but gas particles (mist form) so I dont think harming Kains physical form assuming you could means much. "deep" wounds and "limbs" are arguable in their comparison.

You know that force/strikes create friction? Friction on a surface creates heat, I wonder how much trillions of pascals creates in heat on kains chest, more so looking online you can find that pressure in the earths core is apprently enough to keep something like iron solid despite the heat. kains body remains solid at Raziels pressures.

Why? Just because someone does not understand it makes the facts null?

Well based on the evidence, he can only scratch with his claws which are like, an inch or two long....how "deep" do you really think he can go with 2 inch claws?

Their not prongs though in your sarafan image, their axe blades, pole axe heads either side. "Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth", its impossible humans can slice into vampires where Raziel apprently cannot with his strength or that humans with access to flamethrowers and launching devices would drop them in use of 2k year old spears.....therefore, as inprobable as you belive (not really that difficult to belive that a launching weapon that just seems small can fire a larger projectile, or that the humans can build a siege weapon) my claims are more likely.

Why dont you see no reason? the humans as I have shown have access to them , their clearly a factor in human weaponry at that period so unless your argument is void because this was a battle that took place centuries ago before the Dumahim evolved and they were weak then you dont havea case.

But he does not have to use it, hes not reacting to the ability, his reaction is part of it. How can in your example the soul card be a scripted event when it was never an event in the first place? I dont know how durable mario is, if anything I doubt durability is even relevent in Mario toonverse due to the fact they will do toonforce to survive what "appears" to be powerful.

Cant really counter a point thats not true to begin with.

Not really, we assume most abilities that affect a stronger being than a lesser one, also worth using on a lesser being in every thread, otherwise we would argue forever on specific races and classes of being. Not really, Kain just points it out as fragile to the spell, does not add a specific weakness or vulnerability. My glass bowl is fragile to me dropping it on the floor, that does not mean anything less fragile than my glass bowl can survive dropping on the floor....

A country sized ball of sizzling lava is not alike to a real star, no more than a black hole that consists of a slow pull on human sized beings and building sized "planets" is alike to a real black hole. Toonholes and Toonstars are clearly, very very weak comparisons to real ones, unlike Kain who has the real pressure of the core of a real star.

We have on-screen facts to suggest those slow moving "sonic blasts" are slow in marioverse 🙂 , otherwise Kain and Raziel are supersonic because they can dodge cannon balls from sarafan , if we could use gameplay speeds and mechanics all based on gameplay events that are player choice I think most characters gain some silly feats.

There are no other canon humans outside the tower. Distorting space is not what the Eden sphere does, magic is different.

Because the Bubble itself is singular, the fact the magic from several made the bubble was ingenius still makes the bubble itself ingenius. e.g. an ingenius invention.

A lot of things waste time or magic power, including trying to chop down stone or wood with the soul reaver sword, but since its a game, gameplay mechanics are rife. Theres no canon to suggest animals are not effected, its just scripted in the mechanics that animals do not go into "waver" state iirc.

...Wha? No I checked what Bowers Pa would be, it agrees with the 'heavier weight is heavier' thingie. Well, thats if you're to believe he took it or not.

For the sake of sakeness I looked at some things on this. Skin is around 100 psi to tear through, our femur can take 1,700 psi with our average bones like the skull being at 1,400 psi. Meaning bone can take 14x the pressure that skin can. As we don't know what kind of damage, tiny cut, just a push etc Kain took from the hit we'll assume it was the same force as a 85 psi nibble/finger prod/etc

That puts the hit Kain took being around 1/18th of what his bones can.

Kain's Pa * 18 = 7.90418916e18 Pa = bones.

..*sigh*... now for Bowser;

(((kg*(a+g))+(b))/ c)*con

kg- weight in kg
a- acceleration
g- gravity
b- Bowsers weight and acceleration in an attack
c- claws surface area in m^2
con- what the pressure is over 1m^2 aka for the Pa.

(((5852248.76*(296+9.81))+(3628.73896*20))/ 0.000003)*333333.333 = 1.92358475e20

1.98860974e20/ 7.90418916e18 = 25.15

Bowser can produce 25x the pressure that Kain's bones can take.

^All hypothetical for the reason that there's no way to know what Kain's bones are like and that Raziel's pressure is able to break his bones like in the heat rip scene. Even on the off-chance that his bones dont break Bowser will still be dealing major damage, but hey, if Raziel can do it..

Coincidentally the difference stays true to the 21.5x weight difference :V

I dont know about the proportions of bone ,i will look into it myself. But if I recall your feats for bowser consist of more than him lifting up something ,but instead of him capturing something falling on top of him, I think some physics are different, absorbtion and surface areas of his hands being relevent on the pressure that he felt as well as his body/legs absorbing it which is why I want it discussed in the math thread.

Although tbh, I dont understand your calculation layout, can you clearly state what each figuire is, where it came from etc please. We need to calculate acceleration of one of bowsers attacks on Kain, as well as friction and how Kains body will reduce the speed of bowsers attack before it even hits bone (bowsers claws are a few inches long, if that).

'Kay. And sure, just go find the formula for weight absorption on a person then convert it to Bowser's body type. Rechecked, replace the (a+g) with ((a/d)+g) where a is the acceleration of the ball in m/s and d is the time it took for the speed to come to a stop. Its actually 7.79144998e20 Pa. A good 9.857x.

Well.. since you said please..

(((kg*((a/d)+g))+(b))/ c)*con

kg*(a/d+g) = the N it takes to catch a falling ball, weight*(deceleration+gravity)
5852248.76kg*((11ms/ 0.1s)+9.81g) = 6.4948842e8 N

+b = his 4 ton body weight moving at a human 10m/s
6.4948842e8+(3628.73896*20) = 6.49495677e8 N

/c = 0.000003m^2 for three primary claws
6.49495677e8/ 0.000003 = 2.16498559e14 Pa over 3mm

con = how many c's in a 1m^2 area. 1m^2/ 0.000003m^2 = 333333.333
2.16498559e14*333333.333 = 7.21661863e19 Pa

As someone pointed out, even with a acc or decc of 0m/s Kain's bone Pa would only be 1.23x Bowser's force. So with no speed used his force could still damage his bones. And no, going through flesh would slow the momentum down partially but by no significant amount.

The momentum would halt as the claws end (a few inches into Kain assuming they get that far) when Bowsers fingers/hand hits Kain, since its only the pressure of his claw tips allowing him to pierce in the first place.

Although as i thought, your calculation looks more like a durability feat for bowser without taking into account pressure on his hands, how much pressure he felt would be the force of the ball falling divided over bowsers hands area.

Why is bowser 4 tons? Not sure what supports that. Based on scenarios claims around Bowsers anatomy, his bones may be microscopic, his body may not have certain muscles or body strcuture to suggest hes that heavy at all.

Momentum wouldn't suddenly stop, it would penetrate and continue to go in through the now open tear. Torn/broken parts are much much easier to get into then normal.

..you do know that the calc is the exact same as for Raziel (minus flipping) except it replaces acceleration with deceleration, right? Acc for pushing, decel for catching.

4 tons for a very bulky 2m tall reptile with a shell. If its to what Scene says it replaces lighter things such as blood and some organs, muscles bones for the much denser mechanical equipment.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Momentum wouldn't suddenly stop, it would penetrate and continue to go in through the now open tear. Torn/broken parts are much much easier to get into then normal.

..you do know that the calc is the exact same as for Raziel (minus flipping) except it replaces acceleration with deceleration, right? Acc for pushing, decel for catching.

4 tons for a very bulky 2m tall reptile with a shell. If its to what Scene says it replaces lighter things such as blood and some organs, muscles bones for the much denser mechanical equipment.

Only as far as the claw, just because theres a scratch or hole in cement does not mean you can push your hand all the way through it. You would still have to break the parts to fit a hand in, and bowser has a very large hand, large surface area.

No not really, the flipping is what makes it a pure strength feat, raziels strength>weight to flip. Absorbtion, pressure and such are important for a catching feat, and I will discuss this in the other thread once this Kain stuff is done.

We dont know how dense the equpment is, again your making an assumption in favour of your case.

Stone =/= flesh. Flesh rips, stone cracks. Does an arrow only stop at thr head? Does a spear stop at the tip? Flesh tears out from the wound and expands, unless Bowser is shoving his hand through a foot of muscle he wont lose much speed. Bones only a around a cm in. No where near whats needed ro slow him down

No the this was the calc to be used as a full lift until I found the torque varient. This calc tells us what N is needed to make a 6+k ton, 11m/s object come to a stand still in a split second.

......*cough*....... Take 3 seconds to think about it. Flesh, blood and muscles density is arouns 1g/cm3, bone is 1.6. Now most metals are 6 times that, so any amount of that would add more. If you take away the liquid in a person (60% of the body) for a small amount of metal (7.5% of the body) it will weigh the same.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Why would you go from clawring which was regular practice to him to messing about with options in the environment if his own power was not enough? Your logic does not make sense.

He doesn't stop clawing, though. Raziel actually hits them with his claws or weapons and until they enter a "waver" state, or as I call it, "regeneration failure," at which point he can throw them into something or impale them on a spear or set them on fire. You seem to think that Raziel's claws do nothing, and I really have no idea why.

Youve made the claim that some staffs were similiar to ancient weapons and find a rough comaprison of "they both had spikes on bottom and bits sticking out top!", this does not prove anything tbh. I dont care, all I have to do is claim you wrong and make more likely claims based on the fact Raziel cannot just shred them with claws.

First of all, Raziel can and does shred them with claws, your claim that they are immune is unfounded and wrong. Second, "they both had spikes on bottom and two prongs on top," establishes that the weapons are extremely similar at worst and identical at best. How is your claim more likely if you have refused to give evidence for it at every turn? Honestly, it's like you think simply saying I'm wrong without proving it is all you need to do. I'm sorry to tell you this is not the case. You think your claim is more likely?

Prove it.

Well he was alive, whether he regenerated or not was irrelevent. Also I dont know about limb removal but decapitation seems like the end unless you take Vorador into account. But Kain can exist as nothing but gas particles (mist form) so I dont think harming Kains physical form assuming you could means much. "deep" wounds and "limbs" are arguable in their comparison.

No, whether he regenerated or not is vitally important to the claim that vampires cannot regenerate decapitation or limb removal. If he regenerated his head, it proves that vampire can regenerate limbs, if he came back another way, it proves that vampires cannot regenerate limbs. However, that is all unnecessary if you believe Vampires cannot regenerate from deep wounds. What is your claim here? That Kain turning mist form restores his physical body? I have no idea what you're trying to say here.

You know that force/strikes create friction? Friction on a surface creates heat, I wonder how much trillions of pascals creates in heat on kains chest, more so looking online you can find that pressure in the earths core is apprently enough to keep something like iron solid despite the heat. kains body remains solid at Raziels pressures.

Prove that Raziel hitting Kain produced heat. I hope you are aware that earth core pressure are pressing in from all directions, as opposed to Raziel's single direction. I'm not even sure where you were going with that one, especially since Bowser is stronger than Raziel and would produce much the same results. Anyway, I'm assuming from the abrupt topic change that you've given up on the furnace, so that's a plus.

Why? Just because someone does not understand it makes the facts null?

That's a weird conclusion to come to. I just have doubts that you really, truly understand what you're talking about, or the implications of it.

Well based on the evidence, he can only scratch with his claws which are like, an inch or two long....how "deep" do you really think he can go with 2 inch claws?

Deeper than Raziel, seeing as he managed to get his palm through Kain. So several inches at the very least, more if Bowser chooses to magically amp or set himself on fire.

Their not prongs though in your sarafan image, their axe blades, pole axe heads either side. "Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth", its impossible humans can slice into vampires where Raziel apprently cannot with his strength or that humans with access to flamethrowers and launching devices would drop them in use of 2k year old spears.....therefore, as inprobable as you belive (not really that difficult to belive that a launching weapon that just seems small can fire a larger projectile, or that the humans can build a siege weapon) my claims are more likely.

Problem. Those are not axe blades, and resemble the staffs used on the Dumahim more than any other pole-axe in the series. Second, that quote describes my position a better than yours, for a couple reasons. First, Raziel can slice vampires just fine and I don't see how you aren't grasping that, and second, describing humans dropping one weapon in favor of another is hardly "impossible." That's actually closer to trying to claim that they fit six foot staffs onto two foot crossbows and then (this being your argument) these crossbows piercing vampires that can allegedly take Raziel's strength. Oh, and making the previous claim with no evidence to support it. Try actually considering the evidence, not things you made up.

Why dont you see no reason? the humans as I have shown have access to them , their clearly a factor in human weaponry at that period so unless your argument is void because this was a battle that took place centuries ago before the Dumahim evolved and they were weak then you dont havea case.

Well, a few reasons. The most pressing is that no ranged weapons or flamethrowers are seen at any point in Dumah's fortress, and especially not in the scene in question. Your argument depends on the humans using a weapon they are not shown to have used. Then, there's the fact that there's no real indication that the Human Citadel was responsible for the attack. You're assuming that the attackers had access to flamethrowers and ranged weapons when the opposite is shown in evidence. Actually, I went through the Human Citadel again, and guess what? I didn't see a single staff, or really any melee weapons. This indicates that the Human Citadel actually wasn't the group that attacked, since the weapons differ significantly. Further, the Dumahim seen are of the evolved variety, as their design matches the Dumahim found in other areas. In fact, Dumah himself was evolved at the point he was killed, as seen by his non-human appearance and general power level once revived. Also I'm pretty sure only evolved vampires can pull that revived vampire thing with the vampire wraiths. Since they're the only ones to ever do it.

But he does not have to use it, hes not reacting to the ability, his reaction is part of it. How can in your example the soul card be a scripted event when it was never an event in the first place? I dont know how durable mario is, if anything I doubt durability is even relevent in Mario toonverse due to the fact they will do toonforce to survive what "appears" to be powerful.

You don't have to use the card for Bowser to be immune to it, his resistance is part of it. It's a scripted event in the same way the dimensional reaver is: activating plays a little scene you have no control over. Toonforce is a failed argument, stop trying.

Cant really counter a point thats not true to begin with.

That's...not right. Typically you counter false points by pointing out that they aren't true. The fact you can't seem to do this indicates that it is true.

Not really, we assume most abilities that affect a stronger being than a lesser one, also worth using on a lesser being in every thread, otherwise we would argue forever on specific races and classes of being. Not really, Kain just points it out as fragile to the spell, does not add a specific weakness or vulnerability. My glass bowl is fragile to me dropping it on the floor, that does not mean anything less fragile than my glass bowl can survive dropping on the floor....

Not when a spell designates a specific target or target with a certain vulnerability. Again, Superman is "fragile" to kryptonite, this does not mean anything weaker than Superman is similarly affected. You would have to establish that everything is just as fragile as a human. Or, again, play the game and realize that it does not affect non-human targets.

A country sized ball of sizzling lava is not alike to a real star, no more than a black hole that consists of a slow pull on human sized beings and building sized "planets" is alike to a real black hole. Toonholes and Toonstars are clearly, very very weak comparisons to real ones, unlike Kain who has the real pressure of the core of a real star.

Please stop this toon nonsense, it's already part of the rules. You cannot deny that a supernova and black hole are traits of real stars, and that this indicates that Bowser's is a real star. Further, every time the black hole comes up you seem to forget or ignore this: The black hole in Super Mario Galaxy tore space ships and the comet observatory to pieces. Mario was protected by a Luma. The star consumed several hundred planetoids before going nova.

We have on-screen facts to suggest those slow moving "sonic blasts" are slow in marioverse 🙂 , otherwise Kain and Raziel are supersonic because they can dodge cannon balls from sarafan , if we could use gameplay speeds and mechanics all based on gameplay events that are player choice I think most characters gain some silly feats.

That is not an indication that the speed of sound itself is slower, sorry. Further, please prove that the rounds fired at Raziel are supersonic, as not all guns are.

There are no other canon humans outside the tower. Distorting space is not what the Eden sphere does, magic is different.

I disagree. Plus, I never claimed that Dark Eden distorted space, I'm asking why Kain did not mention that the effects of Dark Eden allegedly stopped inside the tower. Since there is no other indication that they did.

Because the Bubble itself is singular, the fact the magic from several made the bubble was ingenius still makes the bubble itself ingenius. e.g. an ingenius invention.

That's a stretch. Creatures grafted together?

A lot of things waste time or magic power, including trying to chop down stone or wood with the soul reaver sword, but since its a game, gameplay mechanics are rife. Theres no canon to suggest animals are not effected, its just scripted in the mechanics that animals do not go into "waver" state iirc.

So that indicates it doesn't work on them. Glad that's settled.

Dang it, you made me double post again. Oh, well, might as well see about Bowser's possible weight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xn4_YZbM7ds#t=36s

"If my calculations are correct, the body slam somehow doubles Bowser's weight while airborne."

So either Bowser's manipulating gravity or he's able to double his mass. This is just one of those more WTF abilities.

I am doing some training so I may not post much for a few weeks.

Just a quick stop off, still training but I am ahead at the moment.

Originally posted by BloodRain

Unless the flesh/skin is billions of times more durable than stone. Your thinking too much of the soft, papery tissue were made out of. No, its shaft would shatter if it hit Kain. The only piecies that actually make a cut is the shaft, like your example of a spear, only powers not using a spear, his using a fat hand.

Thats human flesh, blood and muscle density. IF we knew what metal (if at all) this "machine" is made of you may have a point, we dont.

Originally posted by The Scenario
.[/b]

I know the gameplay mechanics thank you. And Raziels claws clearly are not enough, the pressure of the earths claw is not quite enough, I admit he can probably wound them, but he cannot slice them into bits.

Never happens because if he "shredded" them there would be nothing left to impale or burn. I dont have to prove a negative. My claim is irrelevent, you misunderstand, I dont give a damn what happened to the Dumahim.

The head is hardly just a "limb", its a bit more than that imo, but my point is that he came back so clearly it was not the end for him regardless of how. Kain can turn his physical shape into gas particles and put them together again, ergo, unless you turn him into something less than vapour (atoms?) he can manipualte himself on far less a scale than a limb.

All strikes produce heat, look up friction. Thats more impressive, since Raziels claw tip is equel to the enormous volume of the earths core and the Earths gravity. The furnace is irrelevent if Kain has a better feat from the friction of Raziels claws, its also a dead topic until you prove Furnaces take so long to melt things.

Yeh the few inches of his claws, thats about all we can gauge on Bowser so if he gets a lucky hit on Kain hes not doing much.

Theres nothing wrong with claiming a large projectile fits in a small mechanism. Further, actually argue some of these points please, then we can go from there. Argue and prove your reasons why humans who have access to flamethrowers and launchers would drop them in favour of 2k year old spears? 😆 you made up the whole "sarafan spear" nonsense yourself, then used a weapon that hardly looks like it to claim your proof is concrete.

Does not matter if their seen or not, your points are all logicalyl ridiculous until you can prove humans would throw away their advanced weapons for spears. The Human citadel are iirc the only humans alive other than those humans who worship the vampires. Show me a Soul reaver 1 era human holding a spear. Evolved? we dont know if they were evolved when they were killed or not, only that they are now.

Simply replacing words from your claims with mine does not an argument make 😉 You cannot claim "scripted" when something you claim affects bowser never happens.

I dont recall Stun ever doing that actually, no time was "humans are more vulnerable than most" or anything of that manner stated. Your now making the claim that humans have a "weakness" alike to Kryptonite to Supes? 🙄 again, funny guesses and poor logic.

The rules state all verses are portrayed as shown, look the rules up. That means toonforce remains toonforce, e.g. A small ball of lava doesn ot a star make. Yes because a real blackhole that sucks in real star systems is comparable to one that slowly draws in tiny planetoids and ships. Where does it say "several hundred" and further, stop ignoring the fact the planetoids could be circumnavigated by a normal human being in 20 minutes if that.

Originally posted by The Scenario

Were not just talking about sound though, were talking about some form of projectile weapon. Missed the point entirely 😆 , which was I cant claim Raziel is as fast as a cannon round just because he can jump over the slow moving balls in the game, then claim on top of that that this is "slowed down" for the players benefit, its bull.

Well you would, not sure why you would show uncanon piecies of gameplay mechnic though. In a way he did, he pointed out that inside the tower was unique to outside, since Dark Eden did not "distort space".

What about creatures grafted together? grafting is just two piecies sealed together, it does not have to be done by surgery.

In the mechanics, a lot of things dont work on different beings in mechanics.

With stimulation from mario bros, not that it means anything.

Yeah, it's been like five days. I don't care about this thread anymore.