Final Destination [Maximum] Vol.9 Bowser X Kain

Why the **** was that page so wide? 😐 And since when was shit not censored?

Good sir, the last half of your post to Scene had 30% more obnoxiousness then normal, play nice or you'll be on time-out. :V

Originally posted by Burning thought
I dont care what it is, hence I will not make wild guesses

Originally posted by Burning thought
It is fail, you just cant understand it which why it will continue to fail. I dont know what your talking about here, skin tears at a magnitude that rivals its piercing strength, difference is, unless Bowsers only interested in slowly peeling Kains very top layer off which is the current math on Kains skin layer we have, then that may be fine, but your talking about tearing a larger piece, ergo, more surface area, ridiculous surface area pressure required.

The argument is that after Bowser's claw entry points get in the flesh will continue to tear as cut flesh is so much easier to tear then the initial pierce. EG a person needs a sharp object to pierce flesh but can tear cut flesh with their bare hands. By human scale; skin breaks at 100 psi and bone at 1400, Bowser's claws are equivalent of a knife stab at 16,400 psi [8.2 tons] striking a person. No matter what, even if the base at the end of the cone/claws is only 1.2x larger then the claw base like with Bowser, it will get in. Im not saying this make it so his whole hand, arm and body will get in (oh theres a creepy thought <___<😉 but his fingers will.

Originally posted by Burning thought
It is, a hypocrite is someone who preaches something but does not practice it, ergo you call out stupid claims then make more stupid ones.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Well ill take these calcs with a bit of salt until we discuss it fully with Dadumon and morridini in the maths thread but taking into account your claims, all of this is in a tiny area, e.g. the area I admit Bowser can pierce, e.g. at his very claw tip. However, Kains pressure threshold he can take only increases across the larger area Bowser has to try and damage (this is where tearing, or pushing his whole finger/claw comes in) while his ability to do damage falls dramatically (e.g. the larger parts of his hand, vs whole square inches of Kains skin).

Q: Someone stabs you with a model cone at 16,400 psi. Will it stop at the very point?

Q: Someone stabs you with a finger at 16,400 psi. Will it stop at the very point?

Q: Someone stabs you with a Bowser shaped claw at 16,400 psi. Will it stop at the very point?

A: No. Unless the cone has a 90°+ angle nothing will stop it from getting deep in. Note; Bowser''s claws are 50°.

Bowser's claws aren't that much larger at the base of the claws then it is at the start of the flesh. Its only 1.2x larger. Not enough to stop it.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Well its relevent, you used ==> as if you were talking about a smaller mass behind the cone point like your examples, e.g. arrows, spears etc, this is not the case with bowsers chubby little fingers and hands. Claw holes are little to nothing to the wraith blade, youd realise this if you looked at any Vampire regen vids. Hell, is that your only goal? proving bowser can make Kain give a moan of pain for a second then recover? Considering any counter strike from Kain is a one hit kill thats pretty low.

In pain from a small scratch = stamina/pain threshold limits.

Limits in those areas = can be worn down with that kind of damage = enough of those hits and he's out.

If a small cut can hurt him that badly, three large punctures will be fatal. When his heart was ripped out he was physically defenseless and weak, damage wise its not as bad as his claws getting in. Not sure what your point with the regeneration is since he hasnt shown to be able to renenerate larger wounds at a fast rate. Actually, heart sized damage was enough to knock him out.

Going on Scenario's point: When absorbing Raziel he was being healed. Just before the heart rip Kain was back to normal, so there's nothing to say that the Wraith Blade allowed Raziel to rip his heart out. This means he did it under his own strength.. strength below Bowser's.

Originally posted by Burning thought
The evidence has been given, the math for kains skin is clear in the math thread 😕 , this is all I am discussing at the moment, nothing much new.

1. I dont have to prove any of this, LoK factors are no different to real world, so trying to claim Kains body is not as durable by proportion in some areas as a human is absurd, and its your claim anyway so back your theory.

2. He can get past perhaps the first layer which is the durability we have for Kain in the math thread, however his surface area increases the further down his claws you go, the cone edge on his claw is not=to the pressure at the point.

3. At best, it would get up half an inch down the coned claws, his fingers are chanceless since their fat, as is his hand even worse. As I said, Bowsers hand will get stuck in Kain, especially if Kain moves.

None of that has to do with what Im asking from you 😐

1. This question was for you to answer if you disagreed with human scaling. If you disagree you'd be the one to *prove his specific bone durability and structure backed up from in-verse evidence* or leave it at base aka skin, which would leave you with nothing to stand by to argue against him being torn apart.. If you agree with human scaling then you'll have to admit that Bowser would tear through Kain just like a Bowser claw with 8 tons of psi would to a human. Its your call.

*-The only thing that can yield the results you want.

2. Skin is only 1-2mm thick. You're honestly saying that Bowser, with claws bringing 164x Kain's skin durability, can't get past 1mm? hell 1x would be enough to rip his flesh off 😬 If so, by all means show me the clacs that prove that he cant go past this.

3. Wheres the "science! parm_k-monster" I asked for? Or even the evidence? I want you to provide evidence so show that Bowser couldnt get his claws in instead of randomly guessing half an inch..

Originally posted by Burning thought
Human scaled tearing is your little theory on how solar pressure skin will tear, completly ignoring the fact the tensile strength of such skin is vast. You cant tear human skin if it was that strong, even if you had the force ot pierce it.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Claw point= your estimation, not the rest of the surface area of any part of bowsers attack. I could probably give a rough estimate of how much pressure Bowser is up against, and what he is producing over a square couple of inches, you wont like the numbers though.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Until Dante gets better feats hes going to have a job not shattering his own weapons on Kains body. Although kain beats him regardless of his durability, has too many advantages both magic and otherwise.

I'm sure the guy whose 200+ times stronger, 200+ times faster, can amp this strength and speed by tenfold and has.. wait..... times the weight....... carry the hair length..... yep, and has the power to easily dispose of the vamp before said vamp can realize whats happening.. No-no, I'm sure that guy will have some kind of difficulty winknudge... But that's for another time in another thread.

Originally posted by BloodRain

I do not recall initially bringing it up.

Depends, the initial pierce has the momentum and strength behind it on the piercing edge. If once half a mm in you want to try and tear left or right then the surface area on the sides of the claws are now being used, not the top, e.g. more surface area, so its going to be harder. It only works on humans becaue humans are fragile, their skin can be torn by little.

You said not to make stupid claims, then you made some, thats hypocritical.

The answer on me is no, but I am not in this vs, Kain with star core pressure durability is and although the very tip wont necesserily stop on the very top of Kains skin layer, no object can continue piercing through layers upon layers of material with ease, even bullets and cannon shells cannot do that to vehicles, they stop once their energy slows and dissipates, this will happen after Bowsers got half a mm or so of his claw tip in, then it gets hard. The actual cone is much larger than the tip, the surface ares is higher and the fingers themselves are long and fat, hence why its going to get tough for him.

All this is simply air, all this "three hits would be fatal" rubbish is ungaugable, pain is not really a good gauge for major damage, I may give out a yelp if I stub my toe, doesnt mean 3/4 good hits of them and I die.... 😉 well, its not heart "sized" damage tbh, its his actual object of living/excistence/aniamtion being torn out. Theres no indication that Kain was "back to normal", he was wounded, the fact he did not scream in agony throughout the scene does not dispute this, the fact his was mortally wounded as opposed to standing invulnerable like in SR2 intro proves the damage the wraith blade can do.

1. Your whole math trips up here, a humans skin is weak, you cant compare tearing of a human to tearing of Kains star core pressure skin. You underestimate the fact the star core pressure durability is his max without taking any damage, not a scratch, the fact bowser can pierce does not mean all kains skin layers, or indeed tearing are vulnerable.

2. So 2mm is the ful skin thickness, from there we need to calculate how thick the very top thin layer of skin is, e.g. the part a human can scrape off with their hands or scuff on a rough piece of wood/stone by accident. A quick search on google suggests at least 7 skin layers, so Kains durability over his skin x 7?

3. Hardly a random guess, your saying you cant deduce the length of bowsers fingers/claws?

Anyone can rip it open, on a human silly. Your the one missing the point, which is human skin can tear easily to tiny amounts of pressure, its soft, not star core. You need to use math to prove your case, e.g. the area of Bowsers cone vs the area of Kains skin its pushing against and trying to tear.

Its fine, its just surface area again, only doubt is your lulzy "human skin tears on impact!!" nonsense. Bowsers inches of coned claw/Kains inches of skin.

Who are you talking about here? cant possibly be Dante, since few of those values other than possibly speed add up there, of course whoever this guy is will face durability and regen beyond anything hes faced before, then lose his soul and blood all at once 😄

Originally posted by Burning thought
I do not recall initially bringing it up.

Originally posted by Burning thought
You said not to make stupid claims, then you made some, thats hypocritical.

Except my claims have turned out to be right. Stop wasting my time with false ad hominem 😐

Originally posted by Burning thought
Depends, the initial pierce has the momentum and strength behind it on the piercing edge. If once half a mm in you want to try and tear left or right then the surface area on the sides of the claws are now being used, not the top, e.g. more surface area, so its going to be harder. It only works on humans becaue humans are fragile, their skin can be torn by little.

The answer on me is no, but I am not in this vs, Kain with star core pressure durability is and although the very tip wont necesserily stop on the very top of Kains skin layer, no object can continue piercing through layers upon layers of material with ease, even bullets and cannon shells cannot do that to vehicles, they stop once their energy slows and dissipates, this will happen after Bowsers got half a mm or so of his claw tip in, then it gets hard. The actual cone is much larger than the tip, the surface ares is higher and the fingers themselves are long and fat, hence why its going to get tough for him.

False, the point is still being used as the forwards momentum is effecting that. The body in effected by the fleshes tear limit after being cut.

Human scaling aka the only usable method, says he would, you say it doesn't. Go get a theory to support your claims. Btw how come you haven't realized that 'star core pressure' means nothing when Bowser is attacking with force well above this? Kain can have universal durability but it would still mean nothing if Bowser had universal+ power.

Originally posted by Burning thought
All this is simply air, all this "three hits would be fatal" rubbish is ungaugable, pain is not really a good gauge for major damage, I may give out a yelp if I stub my toe, doesnt mean 3/4 good hits of them and I die.... well, its not heart "sized" damage tbh, its his actual object of living/excistence/aniamtion being torn out. Theres no indication that Kain was "back to normal", he was wounded, the fact he did not scream in agony throughout the scene does not dispute this, the fact his was mortally wounded as opposed to standing invulnerable like in SR2 intro proves the damage the wraith blade can do.

Wrong and poor example. Wrong as pain is a good gauge, if a person is in pain from a cut it shows their stamina. Poor example as a stubbed toe does not cause actual damage, though yes stubbing your toe and being in pain shows your stamina and pain limits. If you get cut or stub your toe you'll yell, the same with a peak human and they wont as they have better stamina/pain limits.

Yes there is. He's cut and is in a great deal of pain. Raziel clashes with Kain and he is still in a great deal of pain. He's still groaning from the pain until the instant he starts to absorb Raziel. Both the numbers game and the modernization are against you in this. 1 instance for; Raziel hitting Kain. 2 instances against; Raziel ripping Kain's heart out and Raziel beating down and damaging Kain with his claws alone. If you go time wise for retcon purposes its; Raz claws SR1 -> Raz fails SR2 -> Raz claws D.

Due to the 2 instances of his claws working to 1 instance of then not working, supposed retcon reasoning, the evidence that he was healed in the only 'not working' instance with no actual evidence to suggest how Raziel could do it... It all leads to Raziel being able to damage Kain with his own claws.

Originally posted by Burning thought
1. Your whole math trips up here, a humans skin is weak, you cant compare tearing of a human to tearing of Kains star core pressure skin. You underestimate the fact the star core pressure durability is his max without taking any damage, not a scratch, the fact bowser can pierce does not mean all kains skin layers, or indeed tearing are vulnerable.

2. So 2mm is the ful skin thickness, from there we need to calculate how thick the very top thin layer of skin is, e.g. the part a human can scrape off with their hands or scuff on a rough piece of wood/stone by accident. A quick search on google suggests at least 7 skin layers, so Kains durability over his skin x 7?

3. Hardly a random guess, your saying you cant deduce the length of bowsers fingers/claws?

1. Ergo you take the first option and disagree with human scaling and are thus leaving his durability as 4.679e17+ instead of the 7.9e18 I gave his bones through. Good, now Bower's 7.79e19 claws have have less opposition. Now you'll need to find a way to say that Bowser's claws with 164x Kain's only durability feat will have the slightest troubles without anything related to human scaling.

2. ..No. You don't need 7x the force needed to pierce the top layer of skin then you do to get through all of them. Besides, you realize that 7x Kains skin durability is still minor compared to Bowser's force right? More to the point is that would be if Kain's body acted like humans.. aka human scaling, which you just disagreed to. Look at it this way; Skin is torn at 100 psi while an 85 psi poke wont pierce but can still be felt, just like in the case of Raziel against Kain. And we know that his claws can do some kind of damage. So you'd need around 1.176x what Kain took to tear his flesh.

3. Based on what evidence do you have that suggests that his claws will stop half an inch in and not pierce in further. I don't want your guess, I want so facts if you're so sure of it.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Anyone can rip it open, on a human silly. Your the one missing the point, which is human skin can tear easily to tiny amounts of pressure, its soft, not star core. You need to use math to prove your case, e.g. the area of Bowsers cone vs the area of Kains skin its pushing against and trying to tear.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Its fine, its just surface area again, only doubt is your lulzy "human skin tears on impact!!" nonsense. Bowsers inches of coned claw/Kains inches of skin.

ALSO while I'm here I may as well say that Ive corrected Bowser's calc:
(((5852248.76*(302.5+9.81))+(3628.73896*20))/ 0.000003)*333333.333 = 2.03087598e20
(current velocity - velocity) / time it took = -acceleration ie deceleration

The deceleration is 302.5 as he stops its 11m/s movement in 40cm aka 0.0363636364 seconds [11m/0.4m = 27.5. 1/27.5 = 0.363... = 302.5]

This gives the force on Bowser's three claws at 2e20 Pa compared to Raziel's 4.67e17 Pa. In other words, 434x the force. But don't mind me, go back to arguing how this will only get to 0.3mm of skin..

Fact is the only way you can suggest that Bowser wont pierce right through Kain with his over 400x claw force is to get figures of Kain's inner body to be much, much stronger then his skin. And the best way is to suggest his bones. But this sole option is basically the human scaling you disagree with. So what is it? Human scaling to up Kain's durability or leaving it as 4e17+. For a person so sure on his workings and theory ya sure are lacking in the evidence department >:

Originally posted by Burning thought
Who are you talking about here? cant possibly be Dante, since few of those values other than possibly speed add up there, of course whoever this guy is will face durability and regen beyond anything hes faced before, then lose his soul and blood all at once

Originally posted by Burning thought
You keep going on about how he can "wreck Kain" or "smash him in half", hes never done it so it seems he cant wreck a living thing since hes never done it! goes for a lot of fictional beings by your logic (or lack of?). he cant rip their arms off, their heads, cut them in half or tear out large areas of their bodies despite his ridiculous strength.

This is kinda hilarious. Your claim is that Raziel can't rip the arms off of Dumahim, because it never happened. So you're arguing against your own point right here.

Vorador taking out the circle, Kain taking down the entire Sarafan, vampires taking over Nosgoth and all the kingdoms. Further, Kains army has only been beaten by Hylden sorcery, it cut a path in BO2 through all the towns until it reached the Hylden Lord. Further, check up on BO2 and Umahs dialogue, she points out vampires are superior to humans but tbh your silly buggering again, its clear throughout the games the humans are so far below Vamps, its just not every single vamp can take on large numbers of humans. Your the one assuming their melee, you cant compare it to melee until weve seen it used as a melee weapon, until then your just comparing apples to oranges, yes their both fruit but the differences are there.

Vorador took out part of the Circle; got killed by humans. I don't recall Kain taking out the whole Sarafan Brotherhood. I do recall the Sarafan massacring countless vampires, though. Umah points outs vampires are superior; she gets killed by humans. Noticing a pattern here? Speaking of patterns, every time a staff has ever been shown in the series, it's been used in melee. Funny, that. Can you name one example of a staff being used at range in LoK? Like, ever? Because, what with the Sarafan using staffs in melee, vampire hunters using them in melee, and vampire worshipers using them in melee, you must have some spectacular evidence for why these wouldn't be used in melee, right?

I agree Dumah was, where does he mension each member of his brood?

How exactly do you think anyone would go about killing Dumah without first going through his fortress and therefore, his kin? The humans attacked the fortress once, any Dumahim killed would have been killed in the same time frame as Dumah himself. Unless you have evidence otherwise, of course.

Why? how do you know? technically any shaft can be aerodynamic. My claim has just as much, if not more evidence than your case, which has zero. You keep ignoring my counters.

It isn't really designed to be aerodynamic. Think about, say, an arrow. It has fletching on the end to stabilize flight, but it's usually a soft, light material like feathers, and it's typically only on the top and bottom. The staffs we've seen, by contrast, have three hard prongs, one on each side and one that could be either top or bottom. Now picture an actual spear meant for throwing. Typically, they'll only have one sharp end, and nothing on the other end. Ideally, the tip should be the heaviest part, or else have it well balanced, so it'll fly mostly straight before angling downward. Back to the Dumahim staffs, they have one pointy tip on one end, and then four points on the other, which seems to be the back end, given that only the single tip is seen impaling Dumahim. The problem being that the heaviest part on that staff would be the prongs, which are seemingly not the end you stab with. In the air, the unnecessary weight would bring the tail end down, especially with the unnecessary drag the prongs produce. So you fire it, it tips over, and most likely ends up with the three prongs in the ground. Speaking of firing it out of something, it seems impossible. Based on the impaling again, and the singular point being the tip that is supposed to hit and the other three prongs (and central point) being the ends that you load into a weapon...doesn't it seem odd that both ends would be sharp? Think of an arrow again, there's a notch where the string fits into the arrow, not another point. On a spear gun, again, only one sharp end, while the blunt end is in the firing mechanism, IIRC. Further, on any spear gun I've seen, the barrel is only as large as the shaft of the spear. However, on the Dumahim staffs, the part you would load into the barrel has three prongs sticking out in multiple directions. The only other way to achieve the Dumah fortress effect would be to load the small end (single point) into the barrel, fire it, and then have the whole staff spin around so that the smaller tip hits the target. This makes no sense.

It is much, much simpler to say that the spear is used rather like how Raziel does it. Namely, he hits you with the large (three prong) end before finishing up with the smaller (single point) tip in an impaling motion. That fits much better.

How can you not use it? dont you have a keyboard? And how is showing one adult from one scene and comparing to another help you with the ones with spears in them? it doesnt, my argument was never that the revived one in your first video was not evolved. Also prove this case, why wouldnt they be revived? The Dumahim in the water revived and healed fine and he was dissolved like acid as per the canon, if hes been dissolving for as long as you belive (centuries?) then its far worse than a few chunks missing, dissolution is even more damage than any spear further how do you explain how these vamps got chunks lost? a spear does not do that....sounds like magic or a larger weapon was at work here 🙂

I hit the button and nothing happens, since the the actual key has two or three different functions, only one of which is actually labeled. I try other combinations and bad stuff happens, like activating one of the other two functions, one of which immediately sends me back to my home page and possibly losing my post. Stupid buttons not doing what I want. Anyway, you are still missing the point here. I showed you an adult Dumahim that was killed and revived by water, true, but I'm not arguing about what killed him. I'm saying that, because the Dumahim were only attacked once, any Dumahim killed would have been killed in that attack, or rather, during the same time frame. The dead/revived Dumahim was killed at the same time as the ones that were impaled. Get it? Of, course, that point is moot is moot because I also showed you an adult being impaled, which was the top left one I mentioned earlier, and pointed out the club hands, thick feet of. So, having established at least two evolved, adult Dumahim that were killed, I can say that the Dumahim killed when the humans attacked them, were already evolved when they died. Simple, right? Further, if you take a look here you'll see that the vampire in question didn't dissolve, and actually doesn't have any chunks missing, so it's no surprise he revived. As for chunks, I agree a spear probably wouldn't do that. But those staffs? They have three prongs and they're spaced pretty far apart. Stab, then tear, and ew you've got a chunk.

Its your claim, "vampires do not evolve" technically I dont have to do anything apart from adhere to the games canon.

Don't just skip points, please, I thought you were responding to Raziel's lack of durability for a moment. In any case, you have just asked me to prove another negative, which is, again, bad form. You can't prove a negative. Here's a quick tip: If you're trying to say "prove this does not happen," it's a negative, and bad, whereas if you want to say "prove this does happen," it's a positive, and good. It's the "not" that makes it negative. For example, it is your claim that vampires continue evolving after they are killed/release their souls, so it's actually up to you to prove it. Essentially, "prove this (the evolution, that is) does happen."

I think ill ignore your claims concerning fallacies, you dont know what they are. It does since A: Its still fettered to the body and B: The body dissolves into ash if you devour the soul. 😆 a hypocrite I see, since you have neither made your point OR shown any legitimate evidence.

No need to be so rude, really. I know what fallacies are, which is why I don't use them. Why are you trying to act superior? Anyway, no, it turns out you're wrong here. The legitimate evidence shows and states that wraiths are vampire spirits fettered in the spectral realm. Where does it state the body is fettered as well? In fact, the legitimate evidence states that you have to keep the spirit and body separate or else it revives. Can you please provide some legitimate evidence that the body turns to ash, or is that just the gameplay?

Energy travels unless the force is stopped, so either you claim their too durable therefore the force stops (like Kain can do) OR, they turn to mush or fall in half. Proving Raziels claws cannot slice through Dumahim like their paper, if he could he would not have to change his tactics. Then it was retconned, further it looks more to me like the interuption of Kains spell causes him harm, not Raziel since Kain keeps holding his face.

But the force doesn't stop. Raziel hits them and his claws keep going sideways. So he turns their surface skin to mush, and he cuts way too shallowly to cut them in half. Hence the tactics change, Raziel just doesn't cut deep. Oh, so you're saying Defiance retconned Soul Reaver 2? I though you didn't like that argument, but hey. Raziel hits Kain and he rocks back in pain, way before he grabs his face. And he never grabs his face in game, which is weird.

Prove the soul is "seperate" soundsl ike a claim to me. Clearly its not, Vampires are always dead.

...what? When you kill anything, the soul pops out. Are you sure you know how LoK works?

The ones in the courtyard yes, but Nosgoth tells us not all Dumahim were killed during the attack ,since there are many around Nosgoth. So far we have no evidence to suggest the Dumahim was killed by anything, other than the water it was in.

Because the Dumahim were scattered by the one attack. Exactly my point, there's nothing else that could have thrown that Dumahim into the water. So by deductive reasoning, knowing that nothing else attacked the Dumahim, the only thing that could have thrown the Dumahim in there is a human.

Pain is irrelevent, damage comes from a strike which Kain has shown, your only counter is "he did not show pain 5 seconds later!", you dont have a case, again....you argue the Wraith blade is not magic now? despite its elemental powers and its soul devouring capabilities? go and play LoK.

Pain is always relevant. In fact, pain is the body's way of telling you that you are being damaged. My case is twofold: A) vampires regenerate, and B) Kain stopped showing signs of pain immediately after he began absorbing Raziel. So there are two possible reasons for why Kain recovered. Strawman, did you get my question wrong on purpose? You stated that the wraith blade strikes on "several magical levels," so I'm asking you to name each and every one of these "several," of which you speak. I have played LoK (SR2, specifically, I watched Let's Plays of the rest), and the wraith blade strikes on only one magical level: spectral. In the Defiance scene, the wraith blade was neutral, not empowered by any element, meaning it was only the spectral reaver, and not the fire, water, earth, dark, light, or spirit reaver. Prove it hits on more than one level, please.

What Supernova? we dont really know what that is, some toon explosion, since we know balls of magma do not Supernova. Things work as they are shown to, and this ball of magma is shown to be thus, its also shown to be small and its explosion (or imposion) is not shown to be anything other than that. Toonforce is consistent with how the game is portrayed. It has no likeliness to a star though....apart from what you have dubbed a Supernova, I think it having a "youth" form where it cries like a baby to grow up to becoming the star completly counters your comparisons to real stars anyway.

Prove it's magma, that's your claim. As it is, stars are the only things that really implode like is shown in the video. Lumas do perfectly mimic planetoids, why not stars? Still, unless you can actually come up with something better than magma, it's a supernova.

durlaugh, durability sufficent! more lulz since its a damn pirate ship, their just flying, you dont know if Mario takes into account any durability or such due to its toon physics, especially when their blackholes are more like plugholes on refuse, speaking of refuse your argument just went down your "toonhole".

Would you like me to report you, or are you going to calm down eventually? The ships, even if they are only as durable as normal wood, are still being torn apart, just like the metal observatory and other planetoids.

Cosmic dust...not star dust silly. Yes because thats all comparable to real stars, let me go and get my big book of science....nope! nothing about baby numas growing up to become stars. Only the galaxy technically is the Star.

Stardust is a scientific term; not just a poetic one, referring to refractory dust grains that condensed from cooling ejected gases from individual presolar stars. Many different types of stardust have been identified by laboratory measurements of the highly unusual isotopic composition of the chemical elements that comprise each stardust grain. Many new aspects of nucleosynthesis have been discovered from those isotopic ratios. An important property of stardust is the hard, refractory, high-temperature nature of the grains. Prominent are silicon carbide, graphite, aluminium oxide, aluminium spinel, and other such grains that would condense at high temperature from a cooling gas, such as in stellar winds or in the decompression of the inside of a supernova.

Read the article before responding next time. Let me know where your big book of science talks about magma leaving stardust, too, 'k? Or tell me where it says that Lumas grow up to be magma? Or you could cool it with the toonforce, because you're the one supporting the dead body that walks around without a heart. Where's that in your big book of science?

😆 I meant to SR era status, your comprehension of LoK is zero, again, go and look up some of the games fundamentals.

You should have specified, because when you stated that only vampires raised from Kain could evolve, you were wrong.

Youve yet to show me those weapons that killed the Dumahim being used so why should I show you a speargun being used?

I showed you plenty of similar weapons used in melee. How about you show me some similar weapons being used at range? Doesn't have to be the same ones that killed the Dumahim, why don't you just prove the concept?

Dont dodge the questions, is "supernova" and "black hole" actually stated? Because a ball of lava, with rock floating in it that grew from a cryng little toon star has no relation to the sun. Unlike Kains durabiltiy thats been mathamatically proven, not that your comparison is alike.

I got a few things, but I haven't played the game in a while. First, the song that plays during the end is named Supernova. Second, wikipedia describes them as a supernova and supermassive black hole, respectively. Third, yes, a Luma actually warns Mario about Black Holes at one point.

BloodRain

Originally posted by BloodRain
Why the **** was that page so wide? 😐

Burning Thought posted this picture.

Originally posted by BloodRain
You questioned the weight of Bowser by referencing Scenario's claims, the same claims that brought up the metal point. Sprecare il mio tempo! bslap

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xn4_YZbM7ds#t=36s

If it helps, Bowser can ignore physics to double his weight.

Hyperlink it next time, BT.

The weight was a minor issue, one that was pointlessly argued against in the first place.

Oh, and a lil summery on the strength business, as I know youre not fond of excessive maths; Bowser's strike force is 434 times that of what Kain took from Raziel. Just fyi of where we are.

To put in my own view, I don't see how it's possible scale up a human to get Kain's bone durability, but refuse to scale a human's skin to get find where Kain's skin will tear. Even if your skin is as hard as stone, that doesn't mean it will, say, get cracked from an impact. Skin needs a certain amount of flexibility, and once the durability is breached, it will tear, simply because it's skin. Claiming that this doesn't work because "human skin is weak" is missing the point entirely. We are already assuming the durability is overcome, so weakness or strength is mostly irrelevant. Human skin tears when its durability is overcome, Kain's skin will tear once his durability is overcome. So will Dante's, Link's, Kratos', even Bowser's, since no matter the durability, skin is still skin. Though Bowser might have scales, I'm not sure.

Getting the bone density from the skin was only theory (comparing skins limit to bones) to see what it could possibly be. If its to find this then comparing his skin to bone is the only way to get a number.. But, because it purely theory work it can only be used for example purposes and cant be considered official, which leaves his durability as what Raziel struck him with. 4e17+ and nothing more(The estimation for bone was 8e18). Im glad you agree that once the limit of the flesh is overcome it will tear, and Bowser is clearly strong enough to bypass this limit with minimal effort. Literally 0.2% of his strength is needed.

Scales.. probably need more to break the outside then you do to break the inner flesh. Kinda like armour in a way.. Either way he still follow the same rules like the rest.

Originally posted by BloodRain

So it was you who brought it up, the whole machine thing being relevent.

Blowing your own trumpet. You dont know what that means, use it right please.

No, you say it would. Your only comparison on tearing is arrows/spears going into humans, what you dont realise is they also stop, even bullets stop sometimes in a human body. Bowser is neither attacknd with it, nor is he able to damage it beyond <2mm, its important to keep stateing it because you dont grip how much pressure durability it is.

You sort of contradicted yourself and helped my argument, to help you out you said a stubbed toe does not cause damage but causes pain, it could be the same with any strike, and vice versa.

What? Kain does not absorb raziel, the reaver does but thats nothing to do with Kain, check up on LoK in the future. Youve got 1 instance of Raziels claws causing damage, and it is a context sensitive issue where Kain was not only weakened but struck by the most powerful weapon in the game.

You cant call a retcon if the events are not the same, their different. Context dear boy.

Well its only going to tear if theres enough force to make it tear, if someone knived say a Rhinosarous and then I walked in, I could not tear its skin off with my bare hands, or if a tank got a hole made in it, does not mean I can split the metal either side of it.

As I said, put your math in the math thread, then ill question absoribtion of a weight on a body and morridini and Dadumon can confirm your math as making some sense.

I dont disagree with human scaeling, I disagree with your flawed claims of how his skin will tear like a humans, hes more durable than that and Bowsers not got enough force, now observe;

Kain has 13598579.7536657565 bar (13 million) of resistance on his top skin layer in 3 square mm, assuming all 7 skin layers are no more durable than the first, Kain has 95190058.2756602955 bar (95 million) through those layers. Bowser has 22x the force required if his claw remained a sharp point throughout. However if we assume the following;

The point of 3 of bowsers claws have a conelike shape to them, assuming that combined their cone front adds up to about half a square inch; 0.00032258 meters squared. Bowsers force would be only 20134406.2558125 bar (20 million) compared to Kains 1462209952.31249991059 bar (1.4 billion) durability in the same area of cone. This is a massive lowball, as Bowsers claw cones have an area closer to 18 squared inches;

649495677 / 0.00530940874 (18 squared inches)= 1223291.912161202 bar (1.2 million) bowsers pressure vs Kains 52639558283.24999678124 bar (52.6 billion bar)

If Bowser manages to get his claws full into Kains body, hes fighting against pressure resistnace equel to 43,000x+ what hes capable of.

The tip of Bowsers claw cone in 2mm of skin;

0.57489 area, so...

649495677 / 0.000370896032

17511529.40347444 bar (17 million) vs Kains 95 million bar. Kain cannot be pierced throughout his skin by bowser.

Until you provide the equation (and its source so I know you didnt make it up) on how a cone works on pressure this estimate gives the area of Bowsers claw cone compared to the durability its up against, needless to say, Bowsers going to be lucky to get more than 1mm into Kain.

Yeh well, your "recently calc" probably includes things ill shoot down, pick apart etc to the point where its obvious youve overhyped the Saviour feats and Dantes speed.

Originally posted by The Scenario

How am I against my own post? My whole claim here is Raziel cant, because he did not....and ths is proven, so whats wrong?

In the presence of Moebius' staff almost any vampire is vulnerable, even powerhouses like Superman and other godly beings have weaknesses. Post BO2 after his defeat of the Sarafan lord and anyone he had to kill to get there the Sarafan were washed up. The pattern is you ignoring context, its in half your arguments. This is a wasted comment, pointing out other spearlike weapons being used in melee does not prove this one was.

The Dumahim were surprised, all we see is a few of them dead so theres no indciation the humans went through the entire fortress and beat every one. Also another false claim, they dont have to have all died at the same time...

I dont know why you made this so long winded, in essence though not all projectiles have to have fins or "fletching". Your dicsussing arrows, its not an arrow and neither is the launcher a bow or crossbow, it looks more alike to a speargun. Why would you load it into the weapon like that? we dont know how they load their weapons, you could suggest it loads in the top or in the sides.

It would be if we were using Raziel, but were not, as proven humans are not going to be able to do as much damage with a spear as Raziel due to strength, humans are millions times weaker.

again, your making up a load of assumptions that humans, being the only known force that attacked the Dumahim had to have done it, you cannot prove this. Further, your claim on the spear using the other end is not only unfounded but using even more area for pressure, your claiming now you can just take chunks out of a dumahim with human strength? 😆 not sure you could do that to a normal human with human strength tbh, take out large chunks with nothing but 3 prongs. Explosives or magic seem to be the only answer there, which also covers how spears could have pierced so much durability, sorcery so thats two logical outcomes.

What point were you making with Raziels durability?

Its not a negative, I said Vampires, as said in canon evolve over time, according to you in the centuries since their "defeat" all the Dumahim still look the same therefore despite the proof of evolution you claim they dont. I am simply pointing out vampires evolve over time, you said they dont after being put out of action so to speak so you need to prove the claim. A negative is proving something does not happen, ive already proven the positive, that vampires evolve. Your saying "Vampire inaction halts evolution" which is positive, e.g. "inaction does halt evolution".

Gameplay? its not a mechanic, its what happens when a vampiric soul is devoured, as I said below their bonded, the soul and the body until the soul is devoured.

Your claiming it does if you think star core energy stops at flesh....if his strength could beat Dumahim durablity as per your argument, his tactic according to your deduction of Raziels gamepaly animation is too shallow so his tactics should simply be to cut deeper, obviously this does not work either despite his godlike pressure. No, SR2 retcons SR1, although your case is poor, since in neither SR1 or 2 does Kain get penetrated by Raziel (at least not to public eyes, they may go behind Kains throne off screen 😛 ).

Originally posted by The Scenario

Yet when you remove what killed the target, the soul returns, so their hardly "seperated" are they, their still connected by a bond.

Or Dumah, or another Dumahim, you cant just claim "well only humans are known to attack so they did it!", I would like to know how the vampires were still "surprised" if you belive the humans were running about in the whole citadel knocking vamps into the water.

If Kain regenerated he would not be in any pain when Raziel leaps up against him. Actually, the reaver strikes with the same colour of whatever reaver you have equped at the time the scene takes place, further all those elemental powers are imbued on the blade, therefore you cant ignore them.

You ignored my questions and countered with a hypocritical approach, nice one. Hang on, why is it a supernova? just because you say it is? because it does not look like one, its too small to sustain such and further its gravitational power is next to zero, it cant draw in rocks that are meters away from it, its nothing alike to what your claiming, so go and find evidence instead of pretending your opinion is fact.

A wooden pirate ship sustains its shape until it actually gets to the advent horizen is also lulazy, also report me for what exactly? laughing at your argument?

Now if only you could cover all your arguments by using real evidence like this one, see I cant argue against you here that Stardust is real because youve proven it without a doubt. Why cool it with the toonforce? that would be against a rule of the forum, because thats how this fiction is depicted, toonlike. Your comparing real physics from science to a toonlike variation not anything like it, this is where science is relevent while ime not comparing Kains animation to real life, I am not claiming this can actually happen.

I thought it was obvious since we were talking about evolved SR era Dumahim, I did not think I had to draw out the entire argument for you.

Similiar as in what? their both spears? Why? the concept is irrelevent until the evidence on the scene is provided.

Ok so at no point in the entire game, is it even implied to be a Supernova by the characters, your trying to tie in a music title and a wiki article but the game itself does not necesserily say anything about Supernovas.

Originally posted by The Scenario

You cant unravel human skin just because youve made an incision, if I stabbed a guy, I cant stuff my hand into the small wound (say a knife cut) and peel the skin off his flesh, you have to tear the rest of it, which means breaking the skin again.

also report me for what exactly? laughing at your argument?

Originally posted by Burning thought
So it was you who brought it up, the whole machine thing being relevent.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Blowing your own trumpet. You dont know what that means, use it right please.

Originally posted by Burning thought
No, you say it would. Your only comparison on tearing is arrows/spears going into humans, what you dont realise is they also stop, even bullets stop sometimes in a human body. Bowser is neither attacknd with it, nor is he able to damage it beyond <2mm, its important to keep stateing it because you dont grip how much pressure durability it is.

Originally posted by Burning thought
You sort of contradicted yourself and helped my argument, to help you out you said a stubbed toe does not cause damage but causes pain, it could be the same with any strike, and vice versa.

What? Kain does not absorb raziel, the reaver does but thats nothing to do with Kain, check up on LoK in the future. Youve got 1 instance of Raziels claws causing damage, and it is a context sensitive issue where Kain was not only weakened but struck by the most powerful weapon in the game.

You cant call a retcon if the events are not the same, their different. Context dear boy.

Please take the time to bother reading my posts. Read them a second time if it helps. A stubbed toe says that the person cant take much pain through nerves. Cuts show what kind of damage is needed to break down their stamina. If a person is in pain from one of these it proves whats needed to cause the body harm.

Raziel directly says that through his actions Kain will be healed. More then anything is that we see Kain go from injured and out of it to healthy and fine the instant Raziel's soul goes through his arms.

Oh no, I'm sure Kain wasn't in any kind of pain in this scene. This is proof that Raziel can damage Kain with his claws.

"If you go..." "supposed retcon" Once again, please bother to read my post if you're to reply to them. Thats if recon is chosen. And no, retcon can happen when a later event contradicts a previous one, it doesn't have to be a retelling of a specific event to be a retcon..

Originally posted by Burning thought
Well its only going to tear if theres enough force to make it tear, if someone knived say a Rhinosarous and then I walked in, I could not tear its skin off with my bare hands, or if a tank got a hole made in it, does not mean I can split the metal either side of it.

As I said, put your math in the math thread, then ill question absoribtion of a weight on a body and morridini and Dadumon can confirm your math as making some sense.

I dont disagree with human scaeling, I disagree with your flawed claims of how his skin will tear like a humans, hes more durable than that and Bowsers not got enough force, now observe;

[Matematica]

Until you provide the equation (and its source so I know you didnt make it up) on how a cone works on pressure this estimate gives the area of Bowsers claw cone compared to the durability its up against, needless to say, Bowsers going to be lucky to get more than 1mm into Kain.

That's not how a body works. Prove that's the case for Kain's body. Poor examples again. 1. The 'can even tear with your hands' is for if the strength relates. If a human with a knife could generate the force over 400x what the Rhinos skin could take then that person would be able to tear that flesh. My example was human strength to human durability, yours was human strength to stronger durability where in fact the actual example would be stronger strength to human durability. 2. ... a tank. Really? First of all the makeup to flesh is completely different to metal. Second if a human, like above, somehow had the strength to produce over 400x the tanks body then that person could tear it. That person would mostly likely be Alex Mercer...

I'm sorry, is that an appeal to audience I see coming along? Well isn't that interesting..

If his skin is pierced at 100 times the force human skin is then why wouldnt it tear at 100 times what human skin would? Why would it be in 100x in one area but not in others? This is exactly what human scaling covers. If your skin is 100 times stronger than normal, itd take 100 times force to pierce, 100 times tensile strength, 100 times tear limit, 100 times.. etc.

Right, time to point out the flaws;

1. Keep to working in Pa. Changing it from this to bars is a waste time. Furthermore you leave it as the Pa over m^2, you leave the persons durability as over 1m^2 then compare the strike scaled up or down to what it is over 1m^2. Ie Pa vs Pa.
2. Its not times by 7. It takes the same amount of force to break through all the skin layers as it does one.... Actually, skin layers arent what you think they are. Not only this but your 'x7' doesn't work irl. It takes 100 psi to start scratching the 'top layer'. If your method was true then skin as a whole would need 700 psi. AKA your method would say that human skin is half as tough as human bone. We know this is far from true, so you don't times the force needed by 7.
3. Its Bower's 2e20 Pa compared to Kain's 4.679e12 bars. 2e20 Pa = 2e15 bars. That's still 434x the pressure. Even if timing it by 7 was real Bowser would still have 62x the pressure. But as said, the x7 doesn't work.

That isn't an estimate.. it doesn't even make sense. Your calc is done as if the three claws have a flat 0.00177m2 face and not the 0.000001m2 face with a 0.00177m2 body at a certain angle that they really are. And no, I don't need to prove your claims.. you do. But I will point out the mistakes.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Yeh well, your "recently calc" probably includes things ill shoot down, pick apart etc to the point where its obvious youve overhyped the Saviour feats and Dantes speed.

Originally posted by BloodRain

"shrug" I see a lot of his posts, and in some cases yours insulting, theres a difference between a real insult/flame and an annoying one however.

Yes I questioned weight, but I am only going to debate weight, not an unrelated strawman on amibgious machines.

No, their completly useless because your making unrelated comparisons between arrows and spears piercing humans in one area then comparing them to something completly different. Their even more useless than my counter, which is only flawed in the fact we dont know the entire area of the cone compared to the area of skin and how layers of skin react to such forces.

Your not scaling however, your claiming just because Bowser has more force that automatically allows you to compare to an arrow, his claws are nothing alike to spears or arrows, or bullets and by comparison Kains far more durable even when scaled, a human can be pierced by far less than bullets and arrows, but Kain cant be pierced by much less than Bowsers claw. I dont know how pointing out how bullets "can" go right through counters them also being able to get stuck in a person. But he cant, he can only match it in a small area, e.g. the area I have admitted he can pierce, but a hole the size of a pin prick is not going to bother him.

I did and you contradicted yourself, you go on from saying how a person can feel pain without any damage, it breaks the whole claim that you have to be in pain to be damaged.

Only it does not go through Kains arms, it goes through the reaver and into it. Raziel never says hes healing Kain until the very end, when he actually does.

Again, contradiction, stubbed toe causes pain but little to no damage as you said, this has no shown damage, Kains actually just holding his face.

But it does not contradict it at all, because its unique context.

You didnt even read my example, I said I could not tear off skin with my hands, Bowser could not tear off skin just because hes made a small pierce in Kain, a pierce less than 1-2mm deep is nothing. Again, your ignoring the actual numbers, your just tossing in the pressure at Bowsers very claw tip to 3mm squared of Kains skin and using it for tearing and any other area you see fit, it does not work like that.

That would be if I said your argument was wrong until Morridini and Dadumon agree, what I actually said is your math, regardless of its place in this argument is proven right by those two, I would have more faith in it.

Because tearing takes more pressure than piercing, your working with more surface area as compared to the single area of piercing.

1. No, Bar is a better gauge purely because you can shove a whole number in without filling the thread (pascals would be millions more), its just easier to simplify. Also what are you talking about here? my calculation takes into account durability over the area Bowser is affecting. You cant use durabiliy over an area that does not relate to the pressure used.

2. The whole human skin takes 100 psi, Kain however can take his full force without a scratch on his top layer. All layers of human skin are not the same in resistance, as I said before humans can scrape their skin and have small peels of it come off, that does not mean you have breached all 2mm of your skin. Although x7 may be off, its a better estimate than taking the first layer as the entire skins durability. Using your example in that link, Kain can take all raziels pressure without even having a scratch on his epidermis. The link even points out that some layers increase the thickness and strength of the skin, so argueing the other layers are equel to the one seems flawed.

3. Whats this a counter to? you just re claimed your whole equation as if that makes you right, and its only that comparison on the very top, to begin the pierce, once more of bowsers claw is trying to push in you get my equation (my equation covers the entire 2mm, proving its impossible for him to get all the way).

It makes perfect sense, I made it quite clear so I dont know how you got "flat face" from that, this calculation points out the pressure Bowser is working against once his claws are 2mm in, this includes the area of 2mm of the cone claw, he cant push against so much pressure resistance.

Again, read my posts. I said your likely to overhype those two feats, which I know you do based on previous arguments concerning them, therefore the maths on deductive logic is going to be wrong. Of course, both sides are going to be bias, I do not belive for one second a Dante vs Kain thread is going to be unbias.

Originally posted by Burning thought
"shrug" I see a lot of his posts, and in some cases yours insulting, theres a difference between a real insult/flame and an annoying one however.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Yes I questioned weight, but I am only going to debate weight, not an unrelated strawman on amibgious machines.
Yet you did...

[QUOTE=13509279]Originally posted by Burning thought
No, their completly useless because your making unrelated comparisons between arrows and spears piercing humans in one area then comparing them to something completly different. Their even more useless than my counter, which is only flawed in the fact we dont know the entire area of the cone compared to the area of skin and how layers of skin react to such forces.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Your not scaling however, your claiming just because Bowser has more force that automatically allows you to compare to an arrow, his claws are nothing alike to spears or arrows, or bullets and by comparison Kains far more durable even when scaled, a human can be pierced by far less than bullets and arrows, but Kain cant be pierced by much less than Bowsers claw. I dont know how pointing out how bullets "can" go right through counters them also being able to get stuck in a person. But he cant, he can only match it in a small area, e.g. the area I have admitted he can pierce, but a hole the size of a pin prick is not going to bother him.

Originally posted by Burning thought
I did and you contradicted yourself, you go on from saying how a person can feel pain without any damage, it breaks the whole claim that you have to be in pain to be damaged.

Only it does not go through Kains arms, it goes through the reaver and into it. Raziel never says hes healing Kain until the very end, when he actually does.

Again, contradiction, stubbed toe causes pain but little to no damage as you said, this has no shown damage, Kains actually just holding his face.

But it does not contradict it at all, because its unique context.

Which is what was meant by 'through his arms' instead of saying 'into him'. Can you prove he wasn't being healed the first time? Because Raziel says he does and earlier when we see the same thing in process we have Kain going from nearly beaten to perfectly fine after the absorption begins. That's proof.

No ones looking for scratches on in-game, polygon gameplay graphics. Can's say he did as much as it can't be said that he didn't. But it does show that Kain can be in large physical pain from Raziel. A stubbed toe is from a weak area combined with highly sensitive nerves, this isn't the same for the rest of the body. For Kain to be in pain from his head proves Raziel can harm him with his strength which would disprove Kain being impervious to him.

Not really. In the first instance Kain is in pain from Raziel's claws, in the second he's fine getting hit by them, in the third he's damaged by the claws. The second contradicts both prior and subsequent events.

Originally posted by Burning thought
You didnt even read my example, I said I could not tear off skin with my hands, Bowser could not tear off skin just because hes made a small pierce in Kain, a pierce less than 1-2mm deep is nothing. Again, your ignoring the actual numbers, your just tossing in the pressure at Bowsers very claw tip to 3mm squared of Kains skin and using it for tearing and any other area you see fit, it does not work like that.

That would be if I said your argument was wrong until Morridini and Dadumon agree, what I actually said is your math, regardless of its place in this argument is proven right by those two, I would have more faith in it.

Because tearing takes more pressure than piercing, your working with more surface area as compared to the single area of piercing.

You mean just like how I took Scream and co.'s math over yours and how appeal to audience was brought up every post when I referred to others maths? Intéressante.

Did you miss the x100 y100 part earlier? And no, it takes less force to tear torn flesh then it takes to pierce it. Human hands can tear torn flesh, human hands can't pierce flesh without an object. Scaling says that if one area is scaled up to a number then the rest is scaled by that number unless stated otherwise.

Originally posted by Burning thought
1. No, Bar is a better gauge purely because you can shove a whole number in without filling the thread (pascals would be millions more), its just easier to simplify. Also what are you talking about here? my calculation takes into account durability over the area Bowser is affecting. You cant use durabiliy over an area that does not relate to the pressure used.

2. The whole human skin takes 100 psi, Kain however can take his full force without a scratch on his top layer. All layers of human skin are not the same in resistance, as I said before humans can scrape their skin and have small peels of it come off, that does not mean you have breached all 2mm of your skin. Although x7 may be off, its a better estimate than taking the first layer as the entire skins durability. Using your example in that link, Kain can take all raziels pressure without even having a scratch on his epidermis. The link even points out that some layers increase the thickness and strength of the skin, so argueing the other layers are equel to the one seems flawed.

3. Whats this a counter to? you just re claimed your whole equation as if that makes you right, and its only that comparison on the very top, to begin the pierce, once more of bowsers claw is trying to push in you get my equation (my equation covers the entire 2mm, proving its impossible for him to get all the way).

It makes perfect sense, I made it quite clear so I dont know how you got "flat face" from that, this calculation points out the pressure Bowser is working against once his claws are 2mm in, this includes the area of 2mm of the cone claw, he cant push against so much pressure resistance.

2. ...that means in the comparison he isn't taking 100 psi... he'd be taking it like it was 85 psi aka a poke. As for the rest of your post; A) The outer lay is the toughest part for obvious reasons and B) 7x doesn't work. You do not need 7 times the force to break make a scratch then you do to go through the skin. Skin does not have half the strength as bone. These are actual facts saying how 7x can't be used at all. Just like irl you only need a slight over 1x scratch force to pierce all the layers, its not even 2x.

3. For starters you were using the figures if Bowser had 164x the force, I put in the new 434x force. 434 difference, force over the tips and not timesing by 7 says that Bowser has more than enough.

Yeah It really doesn't.. nowhere in your calc is does it take into account the actual shape or angle aka the sharpness of the tip. Or the force at which his flesh tears at when its damaged. Quite important factors really.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Again, read my posts. I said your likely to overhype those two feats, which I know you do based on previous arguments concerning them, therefore the maths on deductive logic is going to be wrong. Of course, both sides are going to be bias, I do not belive for one second a Dante vs Kain thread is going to be unbias.

Originally posted by BloodRain

Again, unrelated, what works irl? an arrow against human skin? how is that related at all, only to point out that arrows can pierce human skin. Youve yet to outline how its incorrect, I have everything covered, area, pressure, force etc.

But arrows and bullets can, and do get stuck in people despite their force. If you think that then you dont know the numbers were talking about, your just tossing around the 3mm squared force for bowser for every avenue. I have proven it, I guess you closed your eyes when I posted my math that proves less than 2mm of his claw is going to pierce Kain.

"their limits"? whos limits? almost anyone feels pain from stubbing their toe,its no gauge of any limit.

Show me Raziel at that point in the game saying hes healing Kain, Kain abosrbs the wraith blade itself for healing, not Raziel or his connection to the reaver, your talking nonsense you dont know anything about.

Well then dont bother bringing it up, if you cant identify actual damage you have no case and your wasting my time here as well as the rest of your post.

I dont, but Bowsers not got strength x Kains flesh or skin, hes got enough pressure however just on the very tip of his claw, just like a human with a sharp knife has enough pressure to cut an animals skin. The face does not tear, it slices, piercing. Well in a way, but in this case Bowsers claw decelerates less than 2mm in based on the math. What the hell are you talking about now? rock? rocks just more durable, but you can still slice into it with tools so I dont know what point your making with that example.

You were claiming my argument wrong, and I dont think you took anyones maths, just their opinions. The actual math turned out to be wrong, evidently Kain was far far more durable than anything even I estimated 🙂

Depends on how thick the flesh is, in this case the flesh is star core durable. Excuse me? a punch can break skin, they cant pierce because we dont have claws although theoretically someone using their nails can scratch someones skin, thats probably near to the equiavelent damage Bowsers going to do with Kain if he lets bowser get a hit.

Originally posted by BloodRain

1. Which is redundant if I can just shove in a whole number of bar that can also be more directly compared to other energy forces for accuracy. 😆 what? Please tell me your not trying to say Bowser hits for the same force over the same area, thats what it looks like. To make it clear, Bowsers force is divided over the area for pressure, Kains durability is multiplied per area affected. So Kains durability goes up as the surface area does, while Bowers plummets, hence why hes hardly going to get 2mm in.

2. A slight scrape in someones skin does not cover all 2mm of skin that you brought up earlier. You do however need more force to break through to the inner flesh than you do to just make a light scrape, thats why you get more blood for deeper wounds rather than light scrapes where you just get peeled skin. Like when you get burnt, you can peel piecies of skin off, thats not 2mm of it though is it....its not a hard point to understand. Even if its not x7, its more durability than the one topmost layer.

3. I did not multiply by 7 in my calculation of depth (the 2mm one), I used Raziels initial pressure. I just through in the maths on x7 durabiliy for 7 layers for additional discussion. Also, your new numbers are no more likely than the old to me at the moment, as I said my faith is not high but I am using your old figuires for the force at the moment, I think if you look into it though your new numbers wont make much difference, he will just be tens, rather than hundreds times too weak I imagine. This is the figuires made clear, the last ones were just rough calcs i made in notepad and included the x7 stuff;

649495677 Newtons/ 0.000163128706 meters squared (area of 2mm of bowsers cone claw);

Bowsers pressure of; 39814922 bar (39 million)
Vs Kains durability of; 739439573 bar (739 million)

For 2mm of skin. This is if Bowser used just one claw, and could use all his strength for one single claw, this is not found, and he uses 3 claws on the rare occasions he does use them therefore, you can divide his potential pressure by 3 to get the most likely value;

0.000163128706 (area of bowsers singe cone claw) x 3 (for 3 claws)=

649495677 Newtons/ 0.000489386118

Bowsers Pressure; 13271640.798769 bar (13 million)
Kains durability; Far more than 739 million bar as above but not worth posting. Billions needless to say.

Is Bowsers chances (zero) of getting through Kains 2mm of skin just to be clear. The fact his claw is quite a wide cone goes against him, more importantly is that even if he were to get more into Kain and break skin, so what? even if he could get his entire claw in which is impossible, he would have even more trouble on flesh and bone, and the acceleration loss and absorbtion by kains body by the time he gets there would make the strike feel light anyway.

Yes it does, the area is the area of Bowsers cone, I think your getting confused again about how pressure works. Pressure is simply force/area in meters squared, in this case his pressure is worthless by comparison to Kains and this does not even take into account absorbtion, Bowsers deceleration agianst such durability and the fact Kains deeper insides such as his bone will play some part in the durability, and bones are muscle/sinews etc combined are far far more durable than the skin.

Keep blowing your own trumpet chap, until the thread. You dont know what your talking about, I have never said Kain can destroy someone in seriousness that he possibly can, you dont know much about Kain and half the time, probably not much about whomever you would bring up as a comparison of someone he cant beat, such as Dante, who he could stomp 😛

Originally posted by Burning thought

If the faults aren't obvious to you Ill point them out below.

Originally posted by Burning thought
But arrows and bullets can, and do get stuck in people despite their force. If you think that then you dont know the numbers were talking about, your just tossing around the 3mm squared force for bowser for every avenue. I have proven it, I guess you closed your eyes when I posted my math that proves less than 2mm of his claw is going to pierce Kain.

i- Did you take into account the angles? No.
ii- Did you multiply the skin which doesn't happen irl? Yes
iii- Did you provide facts that the skin needs to in fact be multiplied? No.
iv- Did you take into account how Kain's skin tear limits would be effected by a cut? No.
v- Did you make up the formula? Yes.

So why on Earth should I believe a made up calculation that leaves out completely necessary biological and dimensional factors? You don't believe my calc with an actual deceleration formula but expect me to accept a made up one? 😐 Btw reply to this below, save us repetition.

Originally posted by Burning thought
"their limits"? whos limits? almost anyone feels pain from stubbing their toe,its no gauge of any limit.

Show me Raziel at that point in the game saying hes healing Kain, Kain abosrbs the wraith blade itself for healing, not Raziel or his connection to the reaver, your talking nonsense you dont know anything about.

Well then dont bother bringing it up, if you cant identify actual damage you have no case and your wasting my time here as well as the rest of your post.

Youtube their last confrontation, youtube's being an arse here. Going straw man here. Note: I don't really give a damn what exactly was being absorbed into where. You're missing the real point for a small detail. Absorption was happening -> Raziel says it heals him -> [the most important part] we see Kain visibly being healed back to normal. If Raziel mentions healing and the same process is happening and we see Kain being healed.. he was healed.

No one else can logically look at that scene and say Kain was in no pain 😐 Was he having an itch while yawning? Having a late reaction to a bad hangover? No. Raziel attacked him with his claws and Kain was in a great deal of pain. It proves his strength and claws can damage Kain.

Originally posted by Burning thought

Your turn, show me some irl examples that demonstrate your point.
..as a rock makeup doesn't tear like flesh does.

Nup, only the argument of your maths. Yup, Scream's. Just like your new stance of jumping to those two. Ciekawy.

Thickness =/= durability 😐... Technically that's splitting the skin, basically showing its easier to tear then pierce skin. "Scaling says that if one area is scaled up to a number then the rest is scaled by that number unless stated otherwise." Do you disagree?

Originally posted by Burning thought
1.
2.
3.
Is Bowsers chances (zero) of getting through Kains 2mm of skin just to be clear. The fact his claw is quite a wide cone goes against him, more importantly is that even if he were to get more into Kain and break skin, so what? even if he could get his entire claw in which is impossible, he would have even more trouble on flesh and bone, and the acceleration loss and absorbtion by kains body by the time he gets there would make the strike feel light anyway.

Yes it does, the area is the area of Bowsers cone, I think your getting confused again about how pressure works. Pressure is simply force/area in meters squared, in this case his pressure is worthless by comparison to Kains and this does not even take into account absorbtion, Bowsers deceleration agianst such durability and the fact Kains deeper insides such as his bone will play some part in the durability, and bones are muscle/sinews etc combined are far far more durable than the skin.

2. When you, for instance, trip over creating force J it will cut about 0.5 mm in. But that's a quick instance of J. If you were to apply J constantly to the same area it would go much deeper. Burns are the burnt dead skin layers. Much weaker and thinner. Constant J force will get through all the layers, you don't need a multiple of J.

3. For kicks will do the your calc with correct figures.... in Pa >.> :

A) Where did you get 649,495,677 N from? The old decel gives 701,230,499 N, the new decel gives 1,827,788,390 N.
B) 0.000163128706 is the cone, right? Top of a cones surface area: pi*radius*side length = pi*2mm*2Mm = 12.5663706 mm^2 = 0.0000125663706 m^2. x3.

(1,827,788,390/ 0.0000376991118)*26,525.8239

Bowser's claws = 1.28606725e18 Pa
Kain's durability = 4.679e17 Pa

1.28606725e18/ 4.679e17 = 2.74859425

Well, I'm done playing with that now. Where was I... Ah, right. Its wrong. As I said in the earlier in i-v, so far you're missing vital factors. Right now you're simply doing Force=(Newtons/surface area).

Without the angle your formula is treating Bowser's claws as flat surfaces, not a point. Without finding the deceleration relationship figure for a cone shaped object and how the skin tears and separates in accommodation, you wont get anything even remotely close to the results. Looking back at &#19968;, &#20108; and &#19977; we see that you don't simply divide the newtons by the body going in. If your calc was true the stake and cue stick wouldn't pierce a human. Heck by your calc a knife, bullet etc wouldn't either. Take the Raptor example. with a claw that increases in size and with only 5x the pressure on the tips it can get 70% of its body in. Now why didn't this claw that has only 5x skins durability get 4cm into the body and not stop at the skin? The force is based on the tip, not the claws whole body unless you have the 'correct' formula that incorporates the skin, tear and angle relationship.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Keep blowing your own trumpet chap, until the thread. You dont know what your talking about, I have never said Kain can destroy someone in seriousness that he possibly can, you dont know much about Kain and half the time, probably not much about whomever you would bring up as a comparison of someone he cant beat, such as Dante, who he could stomp

Originally posted by BloodRain

psi is the pressure so you pointing out it having an increasing front is irrelevent. Were not talking about a sharp head either, were talking about one sharp point in front of a cone.

I took into account all the avenues to calcluation pressure ratio, surface area being all part of the "angle", I dont think you understand the rest of my calculation, so your points past the first are gibberish.

The calc is hardly "made up", its just the old pressure formula thats proven.

Harming Kains nerves is not going to be much use when a counter slash is going to destroy Bowser on both physical and spiritual levels. Its like you making me yelp in pain from a poke to the ribs and my counter being to blow you up with a stick of dynamite.

Raziel mensions no healing to Kain in the fight were talking about, yes Raziel heals Kain in the final scene, thats nothing to do with a scene hours ago....

Re-read the post, I said actual damage, pain is not equel to Claws slashing into kain, we dont see that happen, so your point is useless.

Ill go strawman on most of this point, most of your "real life" examples have no comparison to what were dicussing here, we dont know from that how much force in N a raptor is creating or the area of its claw edges. We know cue sticks on the other hand are sharp shards, unlike Bowsers fat claws which are larger as you go down the cone.

1. What you type is not all that clear thats why, what are you even saying here?

Do you understand that Kains durability is multiplied over skin, while Bowsers attack is divided? force divides over area afterall? yes or no?

2. Well not if the source is widening like bowsers claw. Show me constant J working like this, you cant because when you trip or scrape your knee, or land on something you only make a small amount of damage, rarely do wounds unless much higher in damage go all the way.

3. Heres your old calc;

Well.. since you said please..

(((kg*((a/d)+g))+(b))/ c)*con

kg*(a/d+g) = the N it takes to catch a falling ball, weight*(deceleration+gravity)
5852248.76kg*((11ms/ 0.1s)+9.81g) = 6.4948842e8 N

+b = his 4 ton body weight moving at a human 10m/s
6.4948842e8+(3628.73896*20) = 6.49495677e8 N

/c = 0.000003m^2 for three primary claws
6.49495677e8/ 0.000003 = 2.16498559e14 Pa over 3mm

con = how many c's in a 1m^2 area. 1m^2/ 0.000003m^2 = 333333.333
2.16498559e14*333333.333 = 7.21661863e19 Pa

Bolded where you said Newtons, although I admit, I got more Newtons becaus I just muliplied by 10x10 etc. Your actual number is far less than what I got. The actual pressure calcluation would be 3 166 723.31N over area.

Thats all it is, force over surface area, thats how you get pressure 😐

We did not calculate Raziels claws any other way and their not flat surfaces either. Pressure is N/surface area, thats it. Unless you can find a specific formula that states a cone has some special pressure formula then your talking nonsense. By my calculation, a knife or such has a smaller surface area, therefore across that area on a human, the human is sliced. Your confusion is based around smaller surface areas, on smaller areas of skin vs larger ones. it doesnt matter if the surface areal is on a cone, or a spike, their the same calculation for pressure.

As I said, your calculations are based on overhypes from various feats, as you have overhyped them in other threads. Dante hardly controls any of Saviours weight, as a durability feat his sword takes most of the pressure and his strength has been proven to be fairly light, since he needs aid from his bullets to push the sharpest sword at his disposal into Saviours glass orb in his center (which he struggled to get in there). He also has effort pulling swords from his chest, which are put there by quick throws. his stats are nothing special and DMC 3 shows us, his reactions are bested by a slow vergil. 🙂

Originally posted by Burning thought
How am I against my own post? My whole claim here is Raziel cant, because he did not....and ths is proven, so whats wrong?

Except for the fact that he does. Repeatedly, over the course of the game. Raziel cuts Dumahim every time he hits them.

In the presence of Moebius' staff almost any vampire is vulnerable, even powerhouses like Superman and other godly beings have weaknesses. Post BO2 after his defeat of the Sarafan lord and anyone he had to kill to get there the Sarafan were washed up. The pattern is you ignoring context, its in half your arguments. This is a wasted comment, pointing out other spearlike weapons being used in melee does not prove this one was.

Cool. I expect you to prove that every single vampire killed in the Sarafan's crusades was weakened by Moebius' staff, and I can't believe you're ging to use the krypnonite example after you tried to dismiss it when I used it. But yes, impalement is stated to be one of the vampire weaknesses. The pattern is still vampires dying, please provide the context, because Blood Omen era vampires were killed by stakes (Vorador being beheaded) and Umah was killed with swords. No, proving that other spears were used in melee sets a precedent, and if you want to claim that this spear is different you will need proof.

The Dumahim were surprised, all we see is a few of them dead so theres no indciation the humans went through the entire fortress and beat every one. Also another false claim, they dont have to have all died at the same time...

There are dead Dumahim through the entire fortress. This indicates that humans killed them through the entire fortress. How is the claim false? If there was only one attack, there is no other possible time for the vampires to die.

I dont know why you made this so long winded, in essence though not all projectiles have to have fins or "fletching". Your dicsussing arrows, its not an arrow and neither is the launcher a bow or crossbow, it looks more alike to a speargun. Why would you load it into the weapon like that? we dont know how they load their weapons, you could suggest it loads in the top or in the sides.

It would be if we were using Raziel, but were not, as proven humans are not going to be able to do as much damage with a spear as Raziel due to strength, humans are millions times weaker.

The point is that the design is flawed beyond all hope of use. Then again, this is common in fiction. You need some evidence if you want to claim something would be used a certain way, but you have yet to present this evidence. I chose to use history as an example and proof of concept, what with all spearlike weapons so far being used in melee, and Occam's razor would dictate this trend continue. You are suggesting a change from normal, so you need evidence for it. Or at least give a proof of concept or historical precedent like I did. I was basing the way you might load the spear on how real life spearguns are loaded, for instance. Do you have proof it's loaded from the top?

again, your making up a load of assumptions that humans, being the only known force that attacked the Dumahim had to have done it, you cannot prove this. Further, your claim on the spear using the other end is not only unfounded but using even more area for pressure, your claiming now you can just take chunks out of a dumahim with human strength? 😆 not sure you could do that to a normal human with human strength tbh, take out large chunks with nothing but 3 prongs. Explosives or magic seem to be the only answer there, which also covers how spears could have pierced so much durability, sorcery so thats two logical outcomes.

If you want to claim there is another force, you have to prove it. You can't just say, "maybe there was something else, I don't know what, but you need to prove it's not there," which is essentially what you just did. Further, you're still assuming that the Dumahim are durable while that still under discussion, which is a bit dishonest since you're assuming you won and basing everything of that false premise. Fact is, there's not really any concrete evidence that the Dumahim are that durable, and the explanation given outright states regeneration is the cause. Again, there's no evidence for magic or explosions, and you can't just say they it's there and demand to be disproved, you actually have to prove it's there in the first place.

What point were you making with Raziels durability?

Several, but they're mostly irrelevant to this thread and now it's just to compare this thread to your claims of Raziel's durability in past threads, and possibly quoting you in future Raziel threads. Originally, it was to establish general vampire durability, but that kinda petered out.

Its not a negative, I said Vampires, as said in canon evolve over time, according to you in the centuries since their "defeat" all the Dumahim still look the same therefore despite the proof of evolution you claim they dont. I am simply pointing out vampires evolve over time, you said they dont after being put out of action so to speak so you need to prove the claim. A negative is proving something does not happen, ive already proven the positive, that vampires evolve. Your saying "Vampire inaction halts evolution" which is positive, e.g. "inaction does halt evolution".

First, it is a negative and I already explained why. You asked me to prove "vampires don't evolve." The "don't" is what makes it negative. Second, you can't prove a point using the point you're trying to prove. You essentially said, "these vampires all look the same because they evolved, and they all evolved because they all look the same." That's a no-no, akin to defining a word using the word you're defining, as in "circular logic is circular because it's circular logic." What I'm asking you to do is prove that vampire evolution is that quick. Prove that the vampires evolved after the human attack, essentially, because that's the only way your point works. We know vampires evolve, but how long that takes is questionable. It's more likely that the Dumahim evolved to that state, were killed by humans, and the survivors simply haven't had enough time to evolve again. This makes much more sense than vampire bodies evolving without souls in them, as the body is not mentioned when it is outright stated that the soul is the mechanism of evolution.

Gameplay? its not a mechanic, its what happens when a vampiric soul is devoured, as I said below their bonded, the soul and the body until the soul is devoured.

Prove that. Preferably with a non-gameplay video.

Your claiming it does if you think star core energy stops at flesh....if his strength could beat Dumahim durablity as per your argument, his tactic according to your deduction of Raziels gamepaly animation is too shallow so his tactics should simply be to cut deeper, obviously this does not work either despite his godlike pressure. No, SR2 retcons SR1, although your case is poor, since in neither SR1 or 2 does Kain get penetrated by Raziel (at least not to public eyes, they may go behind Kains throne off screen 😛 ).

Did you read my post? I specifically noted that Raziel's claws don't stop, and he does, in fact, cut right through Dumahim flesh. Raziel destroys Dumahim durability every time he attacks them. Heck, he hurts them with blunt instruments (like rocks,) without blades to get PSI that even reaches star core levels! He impales them with spears that have points less sharp than his claws! What you're suggesting would ruin the most unique gameplay element in the series, like making Link unable to cut shields even though he's strong enough to. Or making Kratos go through puzzles when walls should not actually be an obstacle to him. It's gameplay, and I think we all need to just deal with it. Plus, Raziel totally penetrates Kain in Soul Reaver, and if Soul Reaver 2 retcons Soul Reaver, then Defiance retcons Soul Reaver 2. It's still two counts of penetration to one count of foreplay.

Originally posted by Burning thought
[Yet when you remove what killed the target, the soul returns, so their hardly "seperated" are they, their still connected by a bond.

And I expect you to prove that this changes anything. It was already explained that when vampires are separated from the soul, it is the soul that changes. I ask you again, where is the body mentioned in this process, and where is it stated that the body also evolved?

Or Dumah, or another Dumahim, you cant just claim "well only humans are known to attack so they did it!", I would like to know how the vampires were still "surprised" if you belive the humans were running about in the whole citadel knocking vamps into the water.

What's a famous historical sneak attack? Well, I'm American, so the answer is obviously Pearl Harbor and nothing else ever in history. As such, I'll use it as the go to example here.

"Well only the Japanese were known to attack so they did it!" Yes, I'm sure several casualties caused during the attack on Pearl Harbor were in fact caused by, say, Swiss Mercenaries. Or maybe it was the English, since they weren't known to attack American installations at the time. This was a Japanese attack, forgive me for assuming that the attackers were, in fact, from Japan. "Prove it wasn't England!" is basically what you're telling me to do here. Or, if you prefer, "prove it wasn't something else!" Further, the attack on Pearl Harbor lasted about 90 minutes, or an hour and a half, and involved two or possibly three waves of attacks. "I would like to know how the Americans were still 'surprised' if you believe the Japanese planes were flying around blowing up ships and shooting people." The point I'm trying to make here is that your position doesn't not actually counter what you want it to. Surprise attacks still work when the attackers are a hell of a lot louder and fights takes quite a while, relatively speaking.

If Kain regenerated he would not be in any pain when Raziel leaps up against him. Actually, the reaver strikes with the same colour of whatever reaver you have equped at the time the scene takes place, further all those elemental powers are imbued on the blade, therefore you cant ignore them.

Why not? Dumahim are paralyzed by pain while regenerating long enough for Raziel to pick them up and throw them, why would Kain not be in pain for a few seconds? Actually all vampires in Soul Reaver just stop moving for a while after a few hits, so that fits all the facts about regeneration. Sure, but not all those elements are active at the same time, so you pretending they are is dishonest.

You ignored my questions and countered with a hypocritical approach, nice one. Hang on, why is it a supernova? just because you say it is? because it does not look like one, its too small to sustain such and further its gravitational power is next to zero, it cant draw in rocks that are meters away from it, its nothing alike to what your claiming, so go and find evidence instead of pretending your opinion is fact.

You didn't ask a question, unless you're counting "What Supernova?" as a legitimate question and not a rhetorical device. You said that balls of magma don't supernova, and while this is true, it is irrelevant since we're talking about stars. Unless you're making the claim that a ball of magma did supernova, in which you desperately need some evidence for such a ridiculous claim. Further, you're getting things wrong, since the star was shown to be pulling various planetoids toward itself right before it imploded. And since onl stars really implode like that, all evidence points to it being a star, an not a ball of magma like you still really need to prove.

A wooden pirate ship sustains its shape until it actually gets to the advent horizen is also lulazy, also report me for what exactly? laughing at your argument?

Well, I don't personally think that this:

Originally posted by a mean person
speaking of refuse your argument just went down your "toonhole"

Is very tasteful debate language. In fact, I believe them's fightin' words. Also you're ignoring the metal comet observatory and planetoids and that's also mean, you meanypants.

Now if only you could cover all your arguments by using real evidence like this one, see I cant argue against you here that Stardust is real because youve proven it without a doubt. Why cool it with the toonforce? that would be against a rule of the forum, because thats how this fiction is depicted, toonlike. Your comparing real physics from science to a toonlike variation not anything like it, this is where science is relevent while ime not comparing Kains animation to real life, I am not claiming this can actually happen.

Cool. "Toonlike" is not actually a valid description, though, since Happy Tree Friends could also be described as "toonlike." The supernova/black hole is not presented as funny, it's not presented as completely safe, it is in fact presented as Kind Of A Big Deal, and also sad because hundreds of Lumas gave their lives trying to stop it. And you are trying to make it seem harmless by attaching a meaningless word to it for some reason. You're also trying to argue that Kain's bones should be tougher based on science and scaling up human bones, aren't you? Because he acts so much like a real corpse, right?

I thought it was obvious since we were talking about evolved SR era Dumahim, I did not think I had to draw out the entire argument for you.

Well there's your problem, then.

Similiar as in what? their both spears? Why? the concept is irrelevent until the evidence on the scene is provided.

And you still need that evidence if you expect to go anywhere. But no, the concept is not irrelevant, since your entire argument is based entirely around the concept that humans stopped doing something they've always done with spears. So prove that they switched to spearguns. And show the spearguns being used, please.

Ok so at no point in the entire game, is it even implied to be a Supernova by the characters, your trying to tie in a music title and a wiki article but the game itself does not necesserily say anything about Supernovas.

No, that's wrong. Rosalina's speech on stardust, which is known to happen with supernovas, is given right after the star supernovas. Likewise, referring to "star death" also implies a supernova, since that is essentially how stars die. The music being named "supernova" is just what the game developers decided to call the song that plays after the supernova happens, but whatever, they just made the game.

You cant unravel human skin just because youve made an incision, if I stabbed a guy, I cant stuff my hand into the small wound (say a knife cut) and peel the skin off his flesh, you have to tear the rest of it, which means breaking the skin again.

Warning for nasty.

Except you totally can. This is typically called "surgery."

Originally posted by The Scenario

Nothing says "only" the soul changes does it. And clearly, Dumah changed physically himself, because he was far too big for his bonds when Raziel arrived and he easily broke them. Everything comes from the soul, nothing from the body which is just an animated bag of flesh.

Bad example straight off the bat because its not related in any way 🙄

A better example would be showing you frenchmen lieing dead in the river and then saying it happened centuries ago, then you assume just because one source states the English warred with the french between/before this period it could not possibly be anyone else before or after them, in centuries of time. Even more relevent because unlike human bodies, vampires dont rot, they dont dissolve until their souls are gone because is the soul that is the vampire, and the body of the vampire is bonded to the soul.

I like how you ask for gameplay not to be used, then you use an actual gameplay mechanic. Hang on, why are they not active? their all within the blade, your using the gameplay mechanic of players switching between them now as well? The canon points out them all being within the blade, the whole "player switching" has not been part of the canon at all.

Its neither a real star, supernova or physical system, its purely Mario fictional. YOu will not find a celestial body like that in the universe.

I dont ignore it, clearly the observatory and such are not much heavier than a pirate ship. A pirate ship is not heavy at all and regardless, everything swallowed by this black hole is extremely slow, real black holes are known for devouring whole suns, e.g. the enormous ones, not tiny ones.

The fiction is depicted as toonlike, why this specific thing is depicted as anything else in your mind I dont know. All that happened was that it was all "put to rights!" by the fairy women.

No my entire argument if you did not notice is that you cant claim facts on how a weapon was used in this specific example without showing it. Saying "it happened with other sharp spears!" is not fact for this example. You see your argument needs a lot of facts, my counter is irrelevent until youve proven your argument. Ive shown the spear guns, so stop trying to mock me, again your being rude.

We dont even know if shes talking about cosmic dust, afterall real cosmic dust does not make baby numas that grow up to be stars/galaxies.

Erm no, he did not make a 2mm cut less than 1/2 square mm wide and then just pull the guys skin away, further hes pull up fat.