^......lulz
Durability doesnt matter, its the make-up. Fictional flesh still acts like normal flesh, so it would rip like normal flesh given the correct force. Much more important than that, which makes this start of this paragraph redundant, is that his bones are not far in and that nothing vital/fatal is more than 2 or 3 inches in the body.
Yes. Yes it is. And Occam's razor. Its machinery that appears to be made of metal, average metal density is 8g/cm3, unless anything else says differently the density would be this.
Even more important is that Bowser is producing 9.857 times the force that Kain's bones can take. Compare it to yourself; your bones will shatter at 9.6 MPa. If I came along and shoved my claws (use imagination) at 95.14 MPa at you nothing would stop my attack. Anything thats almost 10 times the pressure you're body can take will find its way to drive through your body with little resistance. Kain's durability cannot match the strength of Bowser.
Originally posted by BloodRain
^......lulzDurability doesnt matter, its the make-up. Fictional flesh still acts like normal flesh, so it would rip like normal flesh given the correct force. Much more important than that, which makes this start of this paragraph redundant, is that his bones are not far in and that nothing vital/fatal is more than 2 or 3 inches in the body.
Yes. Yes it is. And Occam's razor. Its machinery that appears to be made of metal, average metal density is 8g/cm3, unless anything else says differently the density would be this.
Even more important is that Bowser is producing 9.857 times the force that Kain's bones can take. Compare it to yourself; your bones will shatter at 9.6 MPa. If I came along and shoved my claws (use imagination) at 95.14 MPa at you nothing would stop my attack. Anything thats almost 10 times the pressure you're body can take will find its way to drive through your body with little resistance. Kain's durability cannot match the strength of Bowser.
Of course it matters, you cant push your hand into a makeup thats got sun core pressure resistance the same way you think you can poke your hand inside someones body. kain has no "vital" or "fatal", therefore being able to cut a few inches in is useless. Kain has a pressure resistance in an area so small for such a vast amount of pressure that trying to claim "well human skin peels!!" is ridiculous.
Thats just a generalisation claim against logic in general 😆 , so dont try and claim a metal for it when its not got a substence. Occam's razor is not an answer to an argument, its just another theory and your full of them already.
Again your talking about humans, Kain has such high pressure resistance that the tiny scratches the tips of his claws (the only part that can create the pressure your claiming) will mean little. He can at best potentially poke a few holes in Kain, thats it. If anything, his fingers will no doubt get stuck in Kain and he will be a sitting duck to Kains counter attack assuming Kain let him strike in the first place.
Theres nothing wrong with claiming a large projectile fits in a small mechanism. Further, actually argue some of these points please, then we can go from there. Argue and prove your reasons why humans who have access to flamethrowers and launchers would drop them in favour of 2k year old spears? you made up the whole "sarafan spear" nonsense yourself, then used a weapon that hardly looks like it to claim your proof is concrete.Does not matter if their seen or not, your points are all logicalyl ridiculous until you can prove humans would throw away their advanced weapons for spears. The Human citadel are iirc the only humans alive other than those humans who worship the vampires. Show me a Soul reaver 1 era human holding a spear.
This is about all that's really left that I have the slightest interest in. First of all, you're still trying to claim that fitting a 6 foot staff on a maybe 2 foot crossbow is a viable weapon, and I find this pretty ridiculous. There's no evidence for it, for one, in addition to the fact that trying to picture how it would work is pretty hilarious. Andwith that out of the way, I'm going to ask, why are you assuming that the humans that attacked Dumah's fortress had access to flamethrowers and such? Sure, the Human Citadel does, but you're forgetting that no one in the Human Citadel actually uses staffs. The humans that attacked Dumah's fortress? They specifically used staffs, and NOT Human Citadel weapons. So it was most likely a faction of humans that did not have access to the same resources as the Human Citadel. Granted, we do not see this faction, but given that the Human Citadel clearly did not attack Dumah, another human group is the only explanation left. This group used weapons identical to Sarafan staffs, so they were possibly vampire hunters or something.
''Tears'' not peels. If a Bower-like clawed hand went at me at a pressure near 10x what would easily crush my bones, it would tear me apart. If I had million times the durability and he gained a million times the strength the same thing would happen. One attack would be deadly, more would do him in.
Machines are generally made of metal, and metal is metal. Thats as simple as it needs be. Any counters to this would need you to prove it. I've done what I need to for my end. Fin.
Of course Im comparing to humans, thats what they are; humans scaled up. And who really cares what his durability is? The only thing that matters is that Bowser is well above this. And lol high pressure? Its nothing in this thread. ''his fingers will no doubt get stuck in Kain'' <- This alone hints that you dont get how piercing works. Something cone shaped can easily pull out. And youre grasping at straws here; Bowser couldnt scratch Kain until you came to terms with him being stronger, then couldnt hurt him til I got the skin to bone things, now even with being nearly 10x whats needed Bowser will only be making small holes. Pretty close to going the way of Scene here :/
Originally posted by The Scenario
This is about all that's really left that I have the slightest interest in. First of all, you're still trying to claim that fitting a 6 foot staff on a maybe 2 foot crossbow is a viable weapon, and I find this pretty ridiculous. There's no evidence for it, for one, in addition to the fact that trying to picture how it would work is pretty hilarious. Andwith that out of the way, I'm going to ask, why are you assuming that the humans that attacked Dumah's fortress had access to flamethrowers and such? Sure, the Human Citadel does, but you're forgetting that no one in the Human Citadel actually uses staffs. The humans that attacked Dumah's fortress? They specifically used staffs, and NOT Human Citadel weapons. So it was most likely a faction of humans that did not have access to the same resources as the Human Citadel. Granted, we do not see this faction, but given that the Human Citadel clearly did not attack Dumah, another human group is the only explanation left. This group used weapons identical to Sarafan staffs, so they were possibly vampire hunters or something.
Why? clearly to deal enough damage to harm Dumahim you have to have a lot of power, a mechanism especially one set in a fictional futeristic period is the only thing logically viable apart from magic.
The Human Citadel was the last settlement of free humanity in Soul Reaver.During the early years of Kain's Empire , Humanity was 'thoroughly domesticated', leaving only a few feral humans groups, by the time of Kain's Fallen Empire , this had fallen to a solitary Citadel. Surrounded by high walls and a deep moat, it was designed to keep out Nosgoth 's Vampire masters.
http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Human_Citadel
Theres no indication theres humans beyond the Human citadel, its described as one of their last bastions. Your claim that "it has to be some unkown faction, outside of the games storyline (Theres a reason why humanity hides away in a large citadel and Vampires rule Nosgoth)" just because you think they had to be using staffs. You make so many assumptions and beliefs with your idea, while I make one assumption, and thats that the object we see piercing the Dumahim fits in a weapon you belive is too small.
Theres no such thing as vampire hunters iirc in the Soul reaver period, the Vampires were ruling the roost.
Originally posted by BloodRain
''Tears'' not peels. If a Bower-like clawed hand went at me at a pressure near 10x what would easily crush my bones, it would tear me apart. If I had million times the durability and he gained a million times the strength the same thing would happen. One attack would be deadly, more would do him in.Machines are generally made of metal, and metal is metal. Thats as simple as it needs be. Any counters to this would need you to prove it. I've done what I need to for my end. Fin.
Of course Im comparing to humans, thats what they are; humans scaled up. And who really cares what his durability is? The only thing that matters is that Bowser is well above this. And lol high pressure? Its nothing in this thread. ''his fingers will no doubt get stuck in Kain'' <- This alone hints that you dont get how piercing works. Something cone shaped can easily pull out. And youre grasping at straws here; Bowser couldnt scratch Kain until you came to terms with him being stronger, then couldnt hurt him til I got the skin to bone things, now even with being nearly 10x whats needed Bowser will only be making small holes. Pretty close to going the way of Scene here :/
Its the same thing, you cannot use the PSI that can potentially pierce Kain in one claw tip to claim his whole hand can somehow put through, so far Bowser is potentially at the level of making 3/4 small holes in kains body. If I stuck a knife into someone, that does not mean I can then push my whole hand inside his body and start juggling his organs.
not really jimmy, your making "generalisations" based on a lot of things we dont know.
Not at all, Kains not a human in most senses and hardly "scaled up". The evidence suggests bowsers very claw tip (not the whole claw mind you) can make a indentation in Kains skin...thats it. It would look like a pockmark but you want to ignore this and claim he can push his hands in. Pretend this is a Dante durability feat, I have no doubt you would not lowball it then and pretend durability is not a factor. Bowsers fingers are not cone shaped, only his claws are. Well you had to prove things first, Bowser wil still only be making small holes because his weapons (claws) that allow him to pierce Kain are tiny.
I think you have a problem with the difference in PIS per area, you dont simply claim Bowsers fingers, hands and everything else have the same pressure force as his very claw tip. Once you realise this, you will understand how making more than small holes is going to be nigh impossible. Well we should all give up tbh, you dont understand PSI, Scene does not get game mechanics and your not even trying to find common ground anyway, all your claims in this thread have been against Kain. Argueing "durability does not matter" for Kain when concerning a strike is like argueing "speed does not matter" in combat for Dante.
Originally posted by Burning thought
Why? clearly to deal enough damage to harm Dumahim you have to have a lot of power, a mechanism especially one set in a fictional futeristic period is the only thing logically viable apart from magic.
Where is it made clear that you need a great amount of power to harm a Dumahim? Vampires are stated to regenerate, and that's it. No durability was ever indicated at any point. So it does make sense that a sharp staff could kill them, because it bypasses their regeneration.
http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Human_CitadelTheres no indication theres humans beyond the Human citadel, its described as one of their last bastions. Your claim that "it has to be some unkown faction, outside of the games storyline (Theres a reason why humanity hides away in a large citadel and Vampires rule Nosgoth)" just because you think they had to be using staffs. You make so many assumptions and beliefs with your idea, while I make one assumption, and thats that the object we see piercing the Dumahim fits in a weapon you belive is too small.
Theres no such thing as vampire hunters iirc in the Soul reaver period, the Vampires were ruling the roost.
True, which is why I'm suggesting it as an alternative to "humans got rid of flamethrowers in favor of 2k old weapons" option you keep bringing up. Despite how ridiculous it seems, the evidence is, in fact, just the staffs with no flamethrowers in sight. There's no other explanation for the advanced weapons not to be used, unless you have evidence that suggests something other than these? Just to be sure, I'll go over it again:
The evidence: Dumahim impaled by weapons resembling Sarafan staffs.
Possibility 1: The Human Citadel stopped using their advanced weapons and instead took up staffs to attack the Dumahim, then got rid of the staffs and took up advanced weapons again.
Possibility 2: The Human Citadel used melee weapons as ammunition in ranged weapons apparently too small to fire them and again neglected their flamethrowers.
Possibility 3: A different group of humans without the same resources as the Human Citadel used staffs to kill the Dumahim.
Possibility 4: The Human Citadel used staffs before flamethrowers and crossbows became common, then got rid of them once better weapons were available.
All of these possibilities fit the evidence given, which is that humans attacked the Dumahim with the staffs seen both in and outside Dumah's fortress, and there were no advanced weapons present. I want to be sure we're on the same page, so I'm going to say that I support possibilities #3 and #4, and I believe that possibilities #1 and #2 are stupid. I believe #4 is the most likely possibility, while #1 is the least likely. #2 is still just dumb. So I'm just going to say either the Human Citadel aren't the ones who attacked the Dumahim, or that the Human Citadel didn't have their more advanced weapons if they did attack.
http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Dumah
Dumah himself states that he spent centuries in "limbo." The wiki also seems to think that vampire hunters destroyed him. Fact remains, there no advanced weapons at that point, but the Dumahim were still evolved.
Originally posted by The Scenario
Where is it made clear that you need a great amount of power to harm a Dumahim? Vampires are stated to regenerate, and that's it. No durability was ever indicated at any point. So it does make sense that a sharp staff could kill them, because it bypasses their regeneration.True, which is why I'm suggesting it as an alternative to "humans got rid of flamethrowers in favor of 2k old weapons" option you keep bringing up. Despite how ridiculous it seems, the evidence is, in fact, just the staffs with no flamethrowers in sight. There's no other explanation for the advanced weapons not to be used, unless you have evidence that suggests something other than these? Just to be sure, I'll go over it again:
[b]The evidence:
Dumahim impaled by weapons resembling Sarafan staffs.Possibility 1: The Human Citadel stopped using their advanced weapons and instead took up staffs to attack the Dumahim, then got rid of the staffs and took up advanced weapons again.
Possibility 2: The Human Citadel used melee weapons as ammunition in ranged weapons apparently too small to fire them and again neglected their flamethrowers.
Possibility 3: A different group of humans without the same resources as the Human Citadel used staffs to kill the Dumahim.
Possibility 4: The Human Citadel used staffs before flamethrowers and crossbows became common, then got rid of them once better weapons were available.
All of these possibilities fit the evidence given, which is that humans attacked the Dumahim with the staffs seen both in and outside Dumah's fortress, and there were no advanced weapons present. I want to be sure we're on the same page, so I'm going to say that I support possibilities #3 and #4, and I believe that possibilities #1 and #2 are stupid. I believe #4 is the most likely possibility, while #1 is the least likely. #2 is still just dumb. So I'm just going to say either the Human Citadel aren't the ones who attacked the Dumahim, or that the Human Citadel didn't have their more advanced weapons if they did attack.
http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Dumah
Dumah himself states that he spent centuries in "limbo." The wiki also seems to think that vampire hunters destroyed him. Fact remains, there no advanced weapons at that point, but the Dumahim were still evolved. [/B]
Raziels ridiculous strength and claws cannot destroy them, rip them into piecies etc. He has to go from using his claws ,to a single point weapon to finish them off. Also where does it say it bypasses their regeneration? sounds like a claim there.
Well its not an alternative, because its completly untrue, its a blind guess that does not fit in the games universe. As I said, if somethings impossible, then the improbable is most likely, Humans dropping flamethrowers for 2k year old poles is impossible, so your "improbable" belief of "cant stick the weapon in the launcher" is possible.
1- Not a possibility, since its not logical in any way, shape or form.
2-Or they used large rods launched from a launching device works too.
3- No such thing
4- Not necesserily human citadel entities. This could have been long before the evolution, "centuries" infact, it seems in that time vampires have become godly strong to the point where even someone as powerful as Raziel has to find other means to beat them.
4 is the only arguable point, but its ambigious. Dumah says centuries, this could be before their evolution to current stage. Infact, theres no knowing how long ago this was, "centuries" meaning hundreds of years. Its still useless as an argument either way since nothing can be proven. just vague claims upon claims based around what you belive looks like a spear or weapon.
Possibility 5; The vampires were weakened by sorcery or an object similiar to moebius' staff that made them suseptable. Vampire hunters or human opponents to vampires have used said sources for centuries. Other than the "launcher idea" this holds merit.
Also, Looking again they dont necesserily look like evolved vampires, other than Dumah some of them do not seem evolved, some do not even have a wound in them e.g. a spear meaing they must be young, old era vampires not evolved to this leve, they cant even regen or recover from death.
Originally posted by Burning thought
Raziels ridiculous strength and claws cannot destroy them, rip them into piecies etc. He has to go from using his claws ,to a single point weapon to finish them off. Also where does it say it bypasses their regeneration? sounds like a claim there.
All of which is only in gameplay. Raziel can't tear humans to pieces either, you realize. Raziel states in cutscene that vampires fear wounds that impale, and evidence shows that as long as the weapon impaling them remains, the vampire is dead.
Well its not an alternative, because its completly untrue, its a blind guess that does not fit in the games universe. As I said, if somethings impossible, then the improbable is most likely, Humans dropping flamethrowers for 2k year old poles is impossible, so your "improbable" belief of "cant stick the weapon in the launcher" is possible.1- Not a possibility, since its not logical in any way, shape or form.
2-Or they used large rods launched from a launching device works too.
3- No such thing
4- Not necesserily human citadel entities. This could have been long before the evolution, "centuries" infact, it seems in that time vampires have become godly strong to the point where even someone as powerful as Raziel has to find other means to beat them.4 is the only arguable point, but its ambigious. Dumah says centuries, this could be before their evolution to current stage. Infact, theres no knowing how long ago this was, "centuries" meaning hundreds of years. Its still useless as an argument either way since nothing can be proven. just vague claims upon claims based around what you belive looks like a spear or weapon.
Possibility 5; The vampires were weakened by sorcery or an object similiar to moebius' staff that made them suseptable. Vampire hunters or human opponents to vampires have used said sources for centuries. Other than the "launcher idea" this holds merit.
Also, Looking again they dont necesserily look like evolved vampires, other than Dumah some of them do not seem evolved, some do not even have a wound in them e.g. a spear meaing they must be young, old era vampires not evolved to this leve, they cant even regen or recover from death.
Your guesses are exactly the same, seeing as they don't fit the shown canon either. I would say that humans being stupid is indeed possible, however, so them using 2k old weapons has a chance of happening, no matter how small. It's about as likely as the humans being stupid enough to try fitting huge staffs in tiny launchers. Don't be underestimating how retarded some plot elements can get. That way lies madness.
1. Exactly my point, do you realize I was agreeing with you? It's utterly ignorant and I can't believe you tried to imply I said anything that stupid. Still a possibility, no matter how improbable, though.
2. "No such thing." See how this works?
3. Unlikely, I do admit. But the given evidence still makes it a possibility. Neither #2 or #3 has any direct evidence for it, but you support #2 for some reason. Why?
4. Except that Dumah was already evolved, and the dead Dumahim are identical to live ones. In fact, a few of them can return as revived vampires just like all the others. This one fits the best out of any of the others, and actually has the most evidence in its favor.
5. "No such thing." Nowhere is this indicated or even hinted at. It's another possibility, but there is too little information to make that claim. Same as the launcher, as there is no evidence that anything like it exists, you're essentially guessing.
Actually yes, I can. Just like getting pierced by an old arrow/spear head, its not the wider base that's counted, as long as the tip enters and has momentum behind it it will go through. And poor example with the knife. Its not in the same size increase as Bowser's [your thin blade>fist to his cone claws>ascending fist] and mainly that your strength isnt far above normal people..
Ok, list everything that can not be generalized and how simple assumptions like 'metal is metal' wont work even though thats what we do for any material calc.
Urm yeah, he kinda is. At least for calcs unless prove other wise. And if you disagree with this then the bone calc will have to be disregarded, and with 0% knowledge of Kain's actual bone to skin strength it cant be calced in the slightest and will have to be left at the base Pa making Bowser's difference much much higher then it is now. The evidence says that the force on the tips would easily shatter his bones, common sense says that the claw wont stop at the very tip.. Lolwut? If it was Dante Bowser would make a hand-sized hole clear through his chest 😐 Being a fan doesn't mean being blind... The base of his claws is about the size of his three fingers, his three fingers make up the size of his hand minus the thumb.
Almost facepamled myself out of my window reading that... Actually just read the above paragraph again. Cone shaped > fingers to hand etc. Its not that I dont get psi, its that no matter what Im saying you're failing to read 😐 Seriously, read the words on your screen properly before posting idiotic remarks. Lol ''All my claims are against Kain'' and you've been supporting Bowser the whole time right? :I My simple claim was that Bowser is stronger than Kain's dura, you turned it into a 10 page, 2 thread song and dance to end up agreeing with the point, cept now finding a way out of it. Another poor comparison.. If Bowser is stronger than Kain's durability then his durability does not matter. Just like how if a character is faster than Dante his speed wouldnt matter either. You're arguing that a guy who can break Kain's bones with 1/10th of his strength will only leave pinpricks in Kain's body.
Hey, so I'm not sure how one comes to the conclusion that Bowser can only put small holes in Kain's body because his hands is bigger than the claws, when in fact this is what Raziel did.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yH0r5j4s6dA#t=3m27s
By the argument I'm seeing, Raziel should have only made 2 or 3 small holes. Instead, Raziel shoves his entire hand in Kain's chest, up to the wrist. Looking at the scene, Raziel didn't even stab; looks more like a palm thrust to me, much higher surface area than his claw tips. So based on that, I can't see how you'd honestly claim that Bowser couldn't replicate it.
Fully agree. If Raziel can do it the much stronger Bowser could do the same and then some. But BT still disagrees with that scene even though both Kain and Raziel were fully aware that he could stab him.
Btw wouldn't a flamethrower simply kill Dumah like his eventual fate demonstrates? And what is this argument about anyhow?
Originally posted by The Scenario
All of which is only in gameplay. Raziel can't tear humans to pieces either, you realize. Raziel states in cutscene that vampires fear wounds that impale, and evidence shows that as long as the weapon impaling them remains, the vampire is dead.Your guesses are exactly the same, seeing as they don't fit the shown canon either. I would say that humans being stupid is indeed possible, however, so them using 2k old weapons has a chance of happening, no matter how small. It's about as likely as the humans being stupid enough to try fitting huge staffs in tiny launchers. Don't be underestimating how retarded some plot elements can get. That way lies madness.
1. Exactly my point, do you realize I was agreeing with you? It's utterly ignorant and I can't believe you tried to imply I said anything that stupid. Still a possibility, no matter how improbable, though.
2. "No such thing." See how this works?
3. Unlikely, I do admit. But the given evidence still makes it a possibility. Neither #2 or #3 has any direct evidence for it, but you support #2 for some reason. Why?
4. Except that Dumah was already evolved, and the dead Dumahim are identical to live ones. In fact, a few of them can return as revived vampires just like all the others. This one fits the best out of any of the others, and actually has the most evidence in its favor.
5. "No such thing." Nowhere is this indicated or even hinted at. It's another possibility, but there is too little information to make that claim. Same as the launcher, as there is no evidence that anything like it exists, you're essentially guessing.
Not really, if it was canon that raziel could tear them apart why would he look for new tactics if his strength was enough? Raziel never looks for other means of defeating humans you realise. Yes but he says nothing about it bypassing regen, preventing it perhaps in the specific area the weapon is in.
Not really, my claims do not fall in the category of "completly untrue or impossible", a larger projectile in a small launcher is far more likely than humans being "stupid" enough to ignore modern weapons.
1. Well thats what you seem to belive, otherwise your making claims like how some unknown human civalisation did it....its a complete guess. Its like me claiming an unkown magic force from another dimension detonated the castle in Legend of Zelda rather than Midna or Ganon.
2. We have a launching device and a projectile, what part of this not working cant you see?
3. Its not just unlikely, its not part of the game, the whole Soul reaver era outlines how vampires rule the place. Theres no a random civ that just happened to exist but not get mentioned in the game. 2. is the most logical. As I said below my statements.
4. Arguable, looking at it they may not be evolved. Also it hardly has any more evidence, infact it makes more assumptions than the others, it makes the assumption some culture of unkown excistence attacked evolved vampires with spears, evolved vamps who are from the Soul reaver era whos only human evidence in proposition to vampires use flamethrowers and launchers. Infact these facts make option 2 the most likely.
5. Just like all your claims are essentially guessing, however unlike some that are impossible, even the improbable idea of a projectile bigger than its launcher (not really that improbable) is true. As for the magic, its not seen but its actually perfectly logical far more than other beliefs.
Further, another interesting note came up is that theres no knowing when Dumah or his children died, the fact their evolved makes no baring on how young or weak they were when they died.
Originally posted by The Scenario
Hey, so I'm not sure how one comes to the conclusion that Bowser can only put small holes in Kain's body because his hands is bigger than the claws, when in fact this is what Raziel did.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yH0r5j4s6dA#t=3m27s
By the argument I'm seeing, Raziel should have only made 2 or 3 small holes. Instead, Raziel shoves his entire hand in Kain's chest, up to the wrist. Looking at the scene, Raziel didn't even stab; looks more like a palm thrust to me, much higher surface area than his claw tips. So based on that, I can't see how you'd honestly claim that Bowser couldn't replicate it.
Bowser does not have the wraith blade, nor does Kain begin in the weakened state in your video, he begins at least this level;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jws63E9dNN8#t=2m3s
Originally posted by BloodRain
Your talking human skin again. many weapons regardless of how charp, if fired can go through a human and out the other side. By comparison, Bowsers strength is nowhere near enough to match Kains area resistance, you do realise the only reason he can pierce is because his strength+sharp point, afterall you can only force a drawring pin into a cork board with the sharp point, by your logic your trying to push the head of the pin into the board.
We dont do that at all, we logically evaluate the weight of a material based on its use, shape etc, we dont know what these machines are for and have nothing in real life to compare to since theres no such thing as complicated metal machines that control biological bodies.
His physical structure is powered by supernatural means, thats not human, he is also dead and has no organ comparison. His body seems to be more durable than you can imagine, you seem to think Kains skin will tear the same as human skin, just because its skin. If you want to start argueing that bowser can move his fingers or his hand through Kain, then you have to start bringing up Kains durability per square inch or w/e, not per square millimeter since all of bowsers fingers and his hand likely add up to that much.
We have a hypocrite it seems mr "dont post idiotic remarks" 😆 , like nonsense based around far larger surface areas being equel to claws. Go and find some proof of something durable being peeled open just because square millimeter sized cuts were made in it, then realise Kains skin, muscle and bone add up to a square area of resistance millions of times that. 😆 Bowsers very tip of his claw is higher in pressure than the equel area of kains skin. If Bowser punched Kain, bowsers arm would probably go flying off.
You sort of changed my example. If you stick a knife in an object, you cannot automatically use the flat side of the knife (assuming its durable, lets say a brass block or something) to cause an equel area of damage in other directions. When you start understanding Kains durability on his upper layer of skin can take planetary/solar pressure at ridiculous scales what human skin cant take a light scrape, e.g. scraping your knee on light gravel or turf on a football pitch can make a human bleed, much less can scrape your very top layer of skin. There are many layers of skin, then flesh, then muscle, bone etc, proving bowser can pierce the very top layer, then trying to claim he can push his much larger area of fingers in wounds and cause damage is laughable, infact I think I will facepalm myself out of the window at these claims lol.
Originally posted by BloodRain
Btw wouldn't a flamethrower simply kill Dumah like his eventual fate demonstrates? And what is this argument about anyhow?
Mostly vampire durability. I'm arguing that the Dumahim and Dumah himself were pierced by "mere" human strength via those staffs. Then vampires can't regenerate from impalement, at least until the staff is removed. BT disagrees, since he thinks the humans were using a staff launching device instead, because vampires have 9 million tons of durability that humans can't pierce. This mostly comes from the fact that Raziel can't tear a vampire into multiple pieces in gameplay.
The flamethrowers are a separate thing, because in the cutscene in question the humans apparently just used staffs, and there were no flamethrowers in the fight. Which is weird because at the time period humans had access to flamethrowers, so we're not sure why they weren't used.
And the fact he would not even attempt it in canon, and has to change his tactics to suit his opponents.
My educated guess on the subject is that this is far younger era Vampires and humans than the evolved beings were seeing. OR as I said, those spears are magically or mechanically enhanced. Constantly claiming "we dont see that happen", can be also said for humans meleeing them, but humans mele someone far stronger, faster and more durable than them and who can return from death is also impossible. Although with the Hylden/Sarafan tech the basic vampires in the BO2 era were defeated, humans would not generally be able to match even those old vampires one on one and they had far better weaponry. (glyph gates, heavy armour/glyph armour etc). To add on that, Soul reaver era vampires rule the world, literally so weaker, younger vamps one on one>many humans with better stuff than spears but according to your belief humans with spears>more numerous, far more powerful and evolved vampires. You can add all the other reasons why this belief is illogical to that as well.
Also, whats your counter to the fact some of the vampires in your video you keep posting in the cutscene do not have spears in them? yet did not revive? Clearly their not evolved.
Originally posted by Burning thought
Not really, if it was canon that raziel could tear them apart why would he look for new tactics if his strength was enough? Raziel never looks for other means of defeating humans you realise. Yes but he says nothing about it bypassing regen, preventing it perhaps in the specific area the weapon is in.
Because they regenerate, man, nothing to do with durability. Raziel never tries to tear anything apart ever, so I don't know why him not tearing something apart is important. Raziel only tries to find ways to bypass the vampire regeneration, because durability has never been a factor.
Not really, my claims do not fall in the category of "completly untrue or impossible", a larger projectile in a small launcher is far more likely than humans being "stupid" enough to ignore modern weapons.1. Well thats what you seem to belive, otherwise your making claims like how some unknown human civalisation did it....its a complete guess. Its like me claiming an unkown magic force from another dimension detonated the castle in Legend of Zelda rather than Midna or Ganon.
2. We have a launching device and a projectile, what part of this not working cant you see?
3. Its not just unlikely, its not part of the game, the whole Soul reaver era outlines how vampires rule the place. Theres no a random civ that just happened to exist but not get mentioned in the game. 2. is the most logical. As I said below my statements.
4. Arguable, looking at it they may not be evolved. Also it hardly has any more evidence, infact it makes more assumptions than the others, it makes the assumption some culture of unkown excistence attacked evolved vampires with spears, evolved vamps who are from the Soul reaver era whos only human evidence in proposition to vampires use flamethrowers and launchers. Infact these facts make option 2 the most likely.
5. Just like all your claims are essentially guessing, however unlike some that are impossible, even the improbable idea of a projectile bigger than its launcher (not really that improbable) is true. As for the magic, its not seen but its actually perfectly logical far more than other beliefs.
Further, another interesting note came up is that theres no knowing when Dumah or his children died, the fact their evolved makes no baring on how young or weak they were when they died.
humans being stupid enough to try firing a melee weapon out of a crossbow is the same as humans being stupid enough to forget they have flamethrowers. I cannot fathom how you think that shooting a staff out of a crossbow you hold in one hand is a viable tactic. Seriously, this is doomed to failure in literally every way.
1. I'm not sure you are reading my posts. I agree with you that abandoning the flamethrowers is retarded. What I'm saying right now is that it is not "impossible." It has the same chance of happening as humans thinking that "staffs in crossbows" is a good idea. Because both are absolute ignorance.
2. The part where you try to fire a projectile larger than you are using a crossbow smaller than your arm. I'm curious as to how you are picturing this working, because I can't. The staff is not aerodynamic, it is far heavier than an arrow, the crossbow you think can launch it is too small to do so, there is nowhere to store the massive ammunition. Seriously, name a function, this "weapon" fails at it.
3. Making up a group of humans is no different than making up a weapon capable of firing those staffs, or making up a way for a crossbow to fire said staffs. You are aware that the Human Citadel does not use staffs? Just go try to find a single human in there actually holding one. Heck, show me one of those crossbow guys and then where he keeps his absolutely huge ammo supply. I'm simply saying that because the Human Citadel doesn't use staffs, it's possible that some other group of humans does.
4. Dumah is evolved. Looking at the dead Dumahim shows them being identical to current living ones. They already evolved their armor or whatever their power is, how young individuals are does not matter. Besides, I think you're getting the numbers mixed up. I'm claiming here that the Human Citadel attacked before they invented flamethrowers. It handily solves the problem of them not using the flamethrowers and eliminates the possibility of an unknow faction in one fell swoop. The only assumption it requires is that technology progressed, which is perfectly normal. #2, on the other hand, requires the assumptions that the Human Citadel abandoned flamethrowers, is using a weapon in a way it isn't shown to be used, and that they're all idiots for trying to make that work.
5. Again, you have no evidence for it, as it is never suggested that the weapons were enchanted, or that the Human Citadel is using small launchers for huge weapons in a way that has never been shown. Both are outright guesses with nothing to support them.
Bowser does not have the wraith blade, nor does Kain begin in the weakened state in your video, he begins at least this level;
And Raziel isn't doing the same attack in either scene. In yours, Raziel just does a quick swipe at most, he isn't pressing or stabbing. More likely Kain just regenerated. In my scene, Raziel does point his claws and gets the huge surface area of his palm inside. Anyway, I still disagree about Kain being weakened, and even if we was, Raziel was weakened much more.
Originally posted by Burning thought
And the fact he would not even attempt it in canon, and has to change his tactics to suit his opponents.
And again, Raziel would not attempt to tear apart humans in canon, so not attempting to tear apart vampires is normal.
My educated guess on the subject is that this is far younger era Vampires and humans than the evolved beings were seeing. OR as I said, those spears are magically or mechanically enhanced. Constantly claiming "we dont see that happen", can be also said for humans meleeing them, but humans mele someone far stronger, faster and more durable than them and who can return from death is also impossible. Although with the Hylden/Sarafan tech the basic vampires in the BO2 era were defeated, humans would not generally be able to match even those old vampires one on one and they had far better weaponry. (glyph gates, heavy armour/glyph armour etc). To add on that, Soul reaver era vampires rule the world, literally so weaker, younger vamps one on one>many humans with better stuff than spears but according to your belief humans with spears>more numerous, far more powerful and evolved vampires. You can add all the other reasons why this belief is illogical to that as well.
That doesn't account for Dumah being evolved, and the others we can see being identical to evolved vampires. There is still no evidence of the staffs being enhanced. Humans surviving in melee with vampires is not impossible, since the Sarafan were easily killing vampires in the thousands in the Blood Omen/Soul Reaver 2 era. Even in Blood Omen 2 Umah was defeated by Sarafan. Based on this history? No, I don't find it odd that humans can beat vampires. This is just one more instance of it.
Also, whats your counter to the fact some of the vampires in your video you keep posting in the cutscene do not have spears in them? yet did not revive? Clearly their not evolved.
The ones that don't have staffs in them are in pieces or have huge holes in them. The ones I see look like just a head and some mangled spine and one that looks like it's missing a torso. As I recall, you said you don't think very deep wounds can regenerate, only surface wounds.
Wider base =/= point to flat base. Get that part first.
Lol no we dont, shape has nothing to do with anything. If its a person we use a 1x density, if its a stone we use 2.5, if a tough rock its 2.6/7. So if its a machine it would be made of metal. My 'its a machine so its metal' claim is simple, if you disagree then provide the evidence that its not metal.
Flesh pierces at x and tears at x, if Kain is pierced by x100 then it would rip at x100. Though I take if you disagree with Kain's biology being a scaled persons right? Ok, that means the bone calc I did is out and noting official can be made of his durability further than what was shown. So Kain's durability is back to only 4e17+ Pa meaning that theres nothing to suggest that Bowsers 7e19 Pa hits wont be dominating him with ease.
Im a hypocrite because I think that Bowser can tear through Kain and Dante... 😕 thats not what a hypocrite is... Saying something gets stabbed is not idiotic, saying it will leave tiny dots is. Okidoke: certain bullets, wooden stake, a pen and pencil, a fence spike, a cone shaped ornament [was on csi] a replica claw, a medieval lance etc all of them have tiny points with larger bodies. All of them get into the body due to the point tearing through. Yeah, reversing my words by saying im making idiotic point then going on to say that his arms would fly off if he tried to punch Kain... When have you ever seen someone punch a durable object to have their arms fly off? 😐
That, again, is wider base =/= point to flat base. Bowsers claws are in essence spear like <= Point, increase, body. Youre examples are like "---|" with no gradual increase to allow the body to enter the gap. Oh... oh wow. The only laughable thing here is that youre still on about him getting through is top layer of skin when his force is far above anything Kain can take. Actually the only way you can keep harping on about this top layer thing is for you to officially prove it. So find the exact biological structure of Kain then calculate exactly how far Bowser's claws given his Pa and claw size increase and how that increase reduces the distance it gets in. Go ahead and start proving your claim, cos that step-by-step is whats needed for you to clam what you are.
Originally posted by The Scenario
Mostly vampire durability. I'm arguing that the Dumahim and Dumah himself were pierced by "mere" human strength via those staffs. Then vampires can't regenerate from impalement, at least until the staff is removed. BT disagrees, since he thinks the humans were using a staff launching device instead, because vampires have 9 million tons of durability that humans can't pierce. This mostly comes from the fact that Raziel can't tear a vampire into multiple pieces in gameplay.
Not seeing how some 'staff launching device' would even get to 9 million tons of damage.. [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpWP9e-iQj8&feature#t=44s]And the impale thing is pretty canon.[url] The rest are basic gamemechs like him not shredding humans.
Kain was recovering from touching Raziel who was on his knees in pain. Kain knew it could happen, Raziel knew it could happen, neither know of any ability (even if there was) to make it easier for Raziel to stab him yet knew it could happen.
Originally posted by The Scenario
Give me a reason why their regen can apprently stop raziels ridiculous power from ripping them into piecies? beyond regen? your not making any sense, Raziel would not be looking for ways to "bypass regen" when one claw slash can bisect them.
Not at all because your claiming its a melee weapon, you cant use circular logic from an unproven claim to disprove my claim/suggestion. Further, you dont know much of anything about the launcher, theres no reason to belive it cannot launch a metal pole, since afterall thats what crossbows do to some degree on a smalelr scale with ancient tech, let alone Soul reaver era humans.
1. Ofc its impossible, give humanity some credit.... You know next time I see an armed security guard I will try and trade him a sharp stick for his assault carbine rifle, see what happens.
2. It works on the same principles as any other bolt launching device looking at it. Your the one guessing at the weight, material etc of this rod, as well as what mechanisms future humans can come up with.
3. I have the weapon, the only area it does not work in is when you try and use other "suggestions" of yours to try and disprove it. There is no other group of humans, thats a fact that cannot be argued since their just not in the game, on the other hand a complicated futuristic launcher is far more open to interpretation.
4. You do realise that the evolution/devolution is based solely on Kains spiritual corruption? I see no problem with Dumah evolving. Well, I will wait until you do a print screen comparison of a living Dumahim and one of the dead ones, I am not seeing this comparison and some of them are dead without wounds. 2# makes sense, your the one trying to belittle the function of a device which is a launcher just because you cant imagine it, its far more likely than a race on the edge of extinction using ancient weapons and the whole "centuries ago used spears" stuff is also pretty ambigious since we dont know the evolutionary level of the vamps then. Its also just another selection of guesses.
5. So what? your argueing humans have not used magical weapons, enchantments etc on their weapons? because last time I recall you just posting an image of what you belive is a similiar sarafan weapon from thousands of years ago and you thought it was cold hard evidence they definatly used spears 🙄
Well no, in the first hes far more powerful. Hes fit as a fiddle and displays pressure was not enough to even give Kain a graze or scrape. You cant disagree when thats whats shown, you cant ignore parts of a scene because you dont like it, and Raziel more? Kain went from being immune to thousands times the earths pressrue PSI to moaning in pain, holding his chest and bleeding from a wraith blade strike. pretty huge difference considering Raziel just drops to his knees.
Originally posted by The Scenario
I dont think even you know what your argueing here. Vampires use their claws...well as claws, its their primary weapon. Since when would Raziel not use them? your reaching.
What does account for him being evolved is the fact his spiritual influence that evolves/devolves him is very much alive, you could argue the same for all the vampires. I dont know about "thousands", we see a few handfulls on-screen and further, we dont know how. BO 2 displays vampires as far more powerful than humans one on one.
Thats my suggestion, raziel simply says "flesh heals as soon as it is cleaved" and more importantly, vamps already considered dead, or even burned in water which dissolves them like acid just return when the water is removed. These vamps have nothing keeping them dead unless you could prove their hearts were removed.
Originally posted by BloodRain
Its just BS tbh with nothing to comment it, machines dont automatically have to be metal. If anything, fiction tells us you can have biological, plastic or energy based machines. You cant really prove anything, just a funny bias little statement to once again, aid bowser in any way you can.
No bullshit, tearing something is harder than just making a hole. Again, lets go back to learning pressure shale we? larger pressure areas require more force, by trying to tear Kains skin not only are you tearing the thin layer hes got thousands of earth pressure/SI over but his flesh, muscle, maybe bone etc. Bowsers area of his cone claw is in the square inches including his fingers, hes never tearing Kain.
Nah, your a hypocrite because you call basic physics "idiotic claim" yet belive you can tear up skin whose lightest top layer can take star core pressures x10+ just because you think human skin tears like this. Please note A) this is compared to human density flesh? and B) All these objects have a far far far lower surface area behind them than the comparison between Bowsers very claw tip and his fat fingers/hands.
😆 what an outright lie. Bowsers hand/fingers= OOO>, if the shaft alike to an arrow (or bowsers finger) was thinner than the sharp claw then you may be able to try and claim he can push his finger behind the claw, but its not the case, and again, hes just making a hole. No major wound. officially prove what? weve proven, in the other thread that Kains very top thin layer of skin has such high resistance, how many layers of skin make up the hunk of flesh, bone, muscle etc you "want" Bowser to apprently pierce with ease is on a whole other level. You cant understand this apprently, you think the very top layer of skin that a small splinter can pierce on a human has equel pressure strength to the flesh, muscle and other layers of skin? please tell me you dont 🙂
Originally posted by Burning thought
Give me a reason why their regen can apprently stop raziels ridiculous power from ripping them into piecies? beyond regen? your not making any sense, Raziel would not be looking for ways to "bypass regen" when one claw slash can bisect them.
Raziel doesn't cut very deep. Just look at his attack animation: it's a small swipe with each claw. That's hardly something that can bisect anyone, much less a vampire that regenerate surface wounds.
Not at all because your claiming its a melee weapon, you cant use circular logic from an unproven claim to disprove my claim/suggestion. Further, you dont know much of anything about the launcher, theres no reason to belive it cannot launch a metal pole, since afterall thats what crossbows do to some degree on a smalelr scale with ancient tech, let alone Soul reaver era humans.1. Ofc its impossible, give humanity some credit.... You know next time I see an armed security guard I will try and trade him a sharp stick for his assault carbine rifle, see what happens.
2. It works on the same principles as any other bolt launching device looking at it. Your the one guessing at the weight, material etc of this rod, as well as what mechanisms future humans can come up with.
3. I have the weapon, the only area it does not work in is when you try and use other "suggestions" of yours to try and disprove it. There is no other group of humans, thats a fact that cannot be argued since their just not in the game, on the other hand a complicated futuristic launcher is far more open to interpretation.
4. You do realise that the evolution/devolution is based solely on Kains spiritual corruption? I see no problem with Dumah evolving. Well, I will wait until you do a print screen comparison of a living Dumahim and one of the dead ones, I am not seeing this comparison and some of them are dead without wounds. 2# makes sense, your the one trying to belittle the function of a device which is a launcher just because you cant imagine it, its far more likely than a race on the edge of extinction using ancient weapons and the whole "centuries ago used spears" stuff is also pretty ambigious since we dont know the evolutionary level of the vamps then. Its also just another selection of guesses.
5. So what? your argueing humans have not used magical weapons, enchantments etc on their weapons? because last time I recall you just posting an image of what you belive is a similiar sarafan weapon from thousands of years ago and you thought it was cold hard evidence they definatly used spears 🙄
Well no, in the first hes far more powerful. Hes fit as a fiddle and displays pressure was not enough to even give Kain a graze or scrape. You cant disagree when thats whats shown, you cant ignore parts of a scene because you dont like it, and Raziel more? Kain went from being immune to thousands times the earths pressrue PSI to moaning in pain, holding his chest and bleeding from a wraith blade strike. pretty huge difference considering Raziel just drops to his knees.
You seriously don't believe that the staffs is a melee weapon? Let's see how well this ranged theory holds up against melee, then, shall we?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMBp3prbh1E#t=55s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7KgK6tOn3o#t=7m40s
Ok, the first video is the staffs used, second video is a guy holding the only known ranged weapon of the Human Citadel. By your argument, they are fitting a staff taller than a man in a ranged weapon roughly the size of a man's arm. I just have to ask, though: if the Human Citadel is currently using these staffs as ammunition, why don't I see them? There is no staff in that launcher. That guard is apparently walking around with an empty weapon and no ammo, at least as far your claim is concerned. Personally, I don't see where he would carry staffs of that size. If you want to convince me that a staff is ammo for a ranged weapon, you're going to need some extraordinary evidence.
Especially since I finally found a wielder for it that fits better than the Sarafan.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uWgEsSJLwo#t=4m15s
Turns out the wiki was right, those staffs are one of the primary weapons of the vampire hunters. That confirms that the vampire hunters are the ones that killed the Dumahim, not the Human Citadel. Though, since the Dumahim were already evolved at that point, there's not a huge window of time for that to have happened in.
1. Assuming vampires exist, the rifle may be less useful than a something to stake a vampire with. Though, while you're at it, why don't you ask him if he'll try to load that rifle with a six foot length of pipe? I'm sure you'd get a similar response.
2. Yes, I'm assuming that something designed to fire arrows or bolts will have trouble with something six feet long and apparently metal. I don't even care about this point anymore since I already found the real answer, but humor me. Why don't you prove that the launcher can fire these staffs?
3. As it turns out, no. I have the weapon, the group, and proof of it being used in melee. You have a theory about a ranged weapon with nothing supporting it. It's pretty much over. Plus we're both idiots for missing the Elder God outright stating that vampire hunters did it.
4. Which ones are dead without wounds? All I see are some that are piles of bones or missing huge pieces. In any case, here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMBp3prbh1E#t=5m35s
There's one of the Dumahim killed by immersion in water, and back as a revived vampire. Completely identical to the current Dumahim, as seen here. Since we have now confirmed that vampire hunters are behind it, and that the Dumahim were evolved at the time of the attack, that answers the question. Humans killed the Dumahim in melee.
5. Is there any evidence of enchanted weapons? No? Well, then, I see no reason to assume that there are any enchanted weapons.
Yes, though Kain was recovered by the time Raziel finally got around to stabbing him. Raziel, on the other hand, was actually fading in and out and being absorbed into the Reaver, that's hardly "just dropping to his knees." He was literally starting to disappear, he was the much weaker one at that point.
