Final Destination [Maximum] Vol.9 Bowser X Kain

Originally posted by Burning thought
I like how you class a second or less as forevor when Kain does something but when Bowser does something that takes just as long if not longer its "Kain could never dodge this!" when a human could probably do so. Real life mist is not Kains mist clearly, Kains mist is under his control, not anything else and passing wind does not disrupt him, neither does his movement while real mist is quite easily evaporated, Kains remains in all his environments, I cant guess at how powerful the wind vortex trap is. This also tells you that he can survive this damage, not just die instantly and lava is far hotter than Bowsers fireballs which do not seem to do much damage in the vids youve shown me, even bowser himself does not take much damage from him and note, Vortexes and Bowsers breath have something in common, easily avoidable and very short range. Considering kain can move several meters in <second in mist form and instantly go in and out of it, these fireballs and breath attacks are ignorable for Kain.

No, Kain teleporting takes more than 3 seconds, which is why I classed that as "forever." Bowser has shown a 3 second charge time once, whereas all others have either not had a charge time or were less than 1 second. Now, then, the Vortex trap is not strong enough to pull in a solid Kain, but it is strong enough to pull in his mist form; so, it's fairly weak, compared to Bowser being able to inhale full sized humans. As for lava, Bowser's flame typically either does the same amount of damage as lava, or in some cases more. In Galaxy, Bowser's flame and lava deal the same amount of damage. In Paper Mario, lava deals 1 damage and Bowser deals 10. Not sure where you get the "weak" thing from, especially since Bowser can turn trees to ash in seconds. It's more than likely Bowser's flame is hot enough to damage Kain regardless of his form.

It gives Kain more than enough time in both examples, the intent is obvious, as I said a human can bypass that, let alone Kain. One mist dodge and kain could be behind Bowser if hes close enough, killing him before he can react or too far to the left or right for the fire to be a problem.

Mario is, again, human in only the most technical sense. I don't doubt Kain could really get that close given the range of Bowser's attacks anyway.

Why would he use full strength when as shown, his full strength is a multiple of that? tbh, he never shows to show full strength at all, that would suggest grunts or struggles which he never does even in his best feats, unlike Bowser. Correction, unless I can actually get a temperature we cannot gauge the exact heat, I cant make anything up unless I pulled a number out of thin air.
I thought you were mr "has to be in a cutscene!" guy? since thats all you talk about concerning Kain yet you show hypocrisy here since neither of these vids is in a cutscene. Also, is that all from one game? so theres only one game of him using claws, does this game hold any strength feats for this bowser?

You're basing Raziel's full strength off how he pushes the blocks, but you don't think he'd use his full strength pushing the blocks. I'm sorry, what? Grunting is not a good indication of effort, you're grasping at straws there, especially since Raziel is dead. Unless you can get an exact temperature, saying that Kain can't tank any heat at all is making things up. You misunderstand about the cutscenes, as I said I'm only going by the rules you keep putting up. Since you seem to say it's okay for gameplay to be used, I'll use gameplay. And are you serious? I just linked 2 different games (Paper Mario and Super Mario RPG) with Bowser using his claws, and you're claiming it's only a one time thing? Fine, you want a strength feat?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGti_e46fco#t=3m45s
There. Bowser and a guy who Bowser defeated holding up the ceiling of a castle. You find out later that the floor collapsed. I don't know why you seem to think it's a different Bowser, though.

I just gave examples, ive never seen the stronger bowsers use claws for one, and as I pointed out, difference in base stats like strength and size, very large differences, especially confusing when their stats dont scale. Kain does not vary on a base level, other than the fact technically Kains base stats would vary, and I fully recognise this since each younger Kain is weaker than the Elder, apart from BO2 Kain who is older than BO1 but possibly weaker before the end. I do apply the same standard for the canon, when have I ever claimed BO2 or BO1 Kain can do everything Defiance Kain can do? I never did afaik....while you on the other hand use Bowser as a whole as if hes always capable of everything hes done which is disproven, as hes too weak to do more than make small holes in planetoids despite being many times the size, or rarely uses all his powers, unlike Kain he also seems to have access to power sources, like the star rod that are unique in certain games.

Except Bowser has a legitimate ability to change size, and he is always extremely strong, as the link I gave you above demonstrates. You know, the one with Paper Bowser, who uses claws. No, what you're doing is claiming that Defiance Kain can do everything the other Kain's can, such as cast spells or use Dark Gifts, which he does not do. Why is only making a small hole in a planetoid weak again? You mean Bowser is exactly like Kain, who seems to have access to items like the Flay and Font of putrescence that are unique to certain games?

I am saying that the reason Bowser may not use his claws in the games he shows strength in, would be that high pressure at the end of them would smash them, or kill him. I can see a pattern to the stronger bowsers only using their fists, and I have yet to have you show me him using his claws on something durable. Take Raziel, he can take his pressure at his claws, they seem to be damn strong since even Kain deflecting them and all that pressure does not harm Raziel, while Bowser punches almost all the time.

'k, aside from the notion that Bowser is always a different character, I have already shown you a claw using Bowser holding up a ceiling until the floor collapsed, without damage. You're making conclusions based on false premises and guessing at things when there's no indication. There is no reason to assume that Bowser's claws would break if he used them, and as already proven the pressure of his strength is not a problem.

Not fast enough that I cannot observe him with my human eyes, I wonder how slowly Kain will think it looks, slow enough for any one of his spells. Well no, if he were lucky enough to have Kain let him ram him, either his spikes based on the evidence would break and him with them or little to nothing would happen, Kain would just get knocked backwards as if he was punched. Whats the, "bowser is quite heavy" based on but tbh all ive seen is him flying about like hes light, very light indeed.

Are you implying that I cannot track Kain with my human eyes? He's not physically faster than Mario, and he's been hit plenty of times by slower things. There is no evidence to base Bowser's spikes breaking on anything, why are you making things up? Bowser's spikes have been hit by a meal hammer wielded by a multi-ton Mario and failed to break, so evidence actually lends itself to Bowser piercing Kain here. Once again, your conclusions are lacking in crucial information.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CN8G7rozbNM#t=3m26s
Such as Bowser being able to body slam through several layers of stone blocks. Almost as if he were extremely heavy, you think? Well, Bowser does have some ability to manipulate gravity, so he can seemingly change his weight as he wishes.

He did react, he said he was burning, also I dont know how hot those flames are, but the heat of his own fire in the earlier video certainly sent him running in terror.

What earlier video, and what do you mean by terror? Because based on the evidence provided Bowser can feel fire but is not overly bothered by it.

No not really, you can see in all these videos hes moving the same speed as a normal man, you claiming hes faster argues with the evidence unless you can counter, although you know Mario is just as varied as bowser from game to game, because he has different power sources, like whatever allows him to fly around (those stars?) in Mario galaxy, either that or he just randomly gains it in this story. Each mario, and each bowser have access to game specific feats and abilities, many of which are contradicted later, while Kain is not contradicted, he just seems to either be stronger or weaker but he never gains plot specific power ups that are relevent here. (yes he gains the nexus stone to resist the soul reaver in BO2, but its irrelevent as I say).

Again, you're implying that Defiance Kain can cast all the spells and Dark gifts as Blood Omen Kain can without evidence (and seems to be contradicted,) why can't I do the same with Bowser and Mario? The "power sources" hardly explain what you're trying to do here, Bowser is consistently strong and his basic abilities do not vary much, if at all.

(quote removed for space)

Why are the first 2 useless? The Iron ball is heavier than any stone Raziel might pull, and it is actively working against him, so Mario's stronger than Raziel most likely. The castle is odd, but you can't deny that Mario has super strength.

Doubt it, since Bowser is the opposite of frail, so it'd probably just bounce of his shell or something, like everything else does.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxJDa6QgBm0#t=5m48s
Notably, Bowser's shell can tank another Bowser's spiked shell, with the same stone crushing power as himself.

Originally posted by The Scenario
No, Kain teleporting takes more than 3 seconds, which is why I classed that as "forever." Bowser has shown a 3 second charge time once, whereas all others have either not had a charge time or were less than 1 second. Now, then, the Vortex trap is not strong enough to pull in a solid Kain, but it is strong enough to pull in his mist form; so, it's fairly weak, compared to Bowser being able to inhale full sized humans. As for lava, Bowser's flame typically either does the same amount of damage as lava, or in some cases more. In Galaxy, Bowser's flame and lava deal the same amount of damage. In Paper Mario, lava deals 1 damage and Bowser deals 10. Not sure where you get the "weak" thing from, especially since Bowser can turn trees to ash in seconds. It's more than likely Bowser's flame is hot enough to damage Kain regardless of his form.

Mario is, again, human in only the most technical sense. I don't doubt Kain could really get that close given the range of Bowser's attacks anyway.

You're basing Raziel's full strength off how he pushes the blocks, but you don't think he'd use his full strength pushing the blocks. I'm sorry, what? Grunting is not a good indication of effort, you're grasping at straws there, especially since Raziel is dead. Unless you can get an exact temperature, saying that Kain can't tank any heat at all is making things up. You misunderstand about the cutscenes, as I said I'm only going by the rules you keep putting up. Since you seem to say it's okay for gameplay to be used, I'll use gameplay. And are you serious? I just linked 2 different games (Paper Mario and Super Mario RPG) with Bowser using his claws, and you're claiming it's only a one time thing? Fine, you want a strength feat?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGti_e46fco#t=3m45s
There. Bowser and a guy who Bowser defeated holding up the ceiling of a castle. You find out later that the floor collapsed. I don't know why you seem to think it's a different Bowser, though.

Except Bowser has a legitimate ability to change size, and he is always extremely strong, as the link I gave you above demonstrates. You know, the one with Paper Bowser, who uses claws. No, what you're doing is claiming that Defiance Kain can do everything the other Kain's can, such as cast spells or use Dark Gifts, which he does not do. Why is only making a small hole in a planetoid weak again? You mean Bowser is exactly like Kain, who seems to have access to items like the Flay and Font of putrescence that are unique to certain games?

'k, aside from the notion that Bowser is always a different character, I have already shown you a claw using Bowser holding up a ceiling until the floor collapsed, without damage. You're making conclusions based on false premises and guessing at things when there's no indication. There is no reason to assume that Bowser's claws would break if he used them, and as already proven the pressure of his strength is not a problem.

Are you implying that I cannot track Kain with my human eyes? He's not physically faster than Mario, and he's been hit plenty of times by slower things. There is no evidence to base Bowser's spikes breaking on anything, why are you making things up? Bowser's spikes have been hit by a meal hammer wielded by a multi-ton Mario and failed to break, so evidence actually lends itself to Bowser piercing Kain here. Once again, your conclusions are lacking in crucial information.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CN8G7rozbNM#t=3m26s
Such as Bowser being able to body slam through several layers of stone blocks. Almost as if he were extremely heavy, you think? Well, Bowser does have some ability to manipulate gravity, so he can seemingly change his weight as he wishes.

What earlier video, and what do you mean by terror? Because based on the evidence provided Bowser can feel fire but is not overly bothered by it.

Again, you're implying that Defiance Kain can cast all the spells and Dark gifts as Blood Omen Kain can without evidence (and seems to be contradicted,) why can't I do the same with Bowser and Mario? The "power sources" hardly explain what you're trying to do here, Bowser is consistently strong and his basic abilities do not vary much, if at all.

(quote removed for space)

Why are the first 2 useless? The Iron ball is heavier than any stone Raziel might pull, and it is actively working against him, so Mario's stronger than Raziel most likely. The castle is odd, but you can't deny that Mario has super strength.

Doubt it, since Bowser is the opposite of frail, so it'd probably just bounce of his shell or something, like everything else does.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxJDa6QgBm0#t=5m48s
Notably, Bowser's shell can tank another Bowser's spiked shell, with the same stone crushing power as himself.

I dont know where you got 3 seconds from, considering dimentional port takes less than a second or so to hit a few guys after teleporting (so the port itself takes a fraction of a second) and the one he does in the presence of Raziel in SR 1 took him about a second. I dont know about "fairly weak" just because it cant pull a solid kain although I dont recall him being in their vicinity while solid. What do you call "damage", gameplay stats? lol....good grief, your getting worse. Great, and in LoK Kain can stand in lava for a good few seconds regardless of his form before his health bar depletes, thats not a form of evidence, like your claims here its a gameplay mechanic. I dont see the evidence, just a claim, Kains sturdier than trees, by millions of times.

I dont just mean mario, I mean I could do it, anyone controlling mario moving at human speed as he does in most of these showings can percieve his attacks. Good, if you dont doubt it then were not in argument 😉 Bowsers range is fairly poor, Kain could throttle him with TK from range or at least bother him assuminh he needed to.

No, i base his full strength off him pushing over the large obelisk, and even then I dont base his "full strength" from that, only the KMC forums does that because we usually take their best feat as their max, even if they did it easily. Whats the strength feat here supposed to prove? I dont know, based on that how heavy the ceiling is, or whats above it....for all I know its one floor or so, a few tons at best.

Show me bowser changing from 8ft+ to supermario galaxy size in the same scene and it seems not, you just showed me him holding a ceiling, then in inside story hes holding up thousands of tons apprently, only to be really weak at his largest super mario galaxy size by only making small holes in a plantoid arguably smaller and certainly lighter/less durable than the iron ball he did while small. Well thats because hes gained those spells chronologically, they were not plot devices. Because iirc the planetoid looks like brick and is not much bigger than the iron ball previously shown, if he had thousands of tons of strength it should shatter into bits. I never bring up flay or putresence as something hes going to use in a vs though iirc unless I added it in the thread.....

So can you show me a claw using bowser striking someone proven durable? its important, although your strength feat is hardly useful, the idea of him using his claws with his full strength can only be proven if you can show me him striking something durable with them, otherwise considering the evidence hes going to shatter himself hitting Kain. Excuse me? lol, yes there is, if hes not got the durablity in his claws or himself to use with full strength, their going to shatter.....simple facts.

No, you miss the point though, you seem to act like Bowsers capable of doing something that someone far faster and with higher reactions than a human could not counter, despite someone like mario or any human of note could also counter or in marios case, has. Mario moves at human speed, Kain is, as stated canonically faster on foot, let alone in mist, wolf or teleport form. 😆 i like how your comparing multiple tons from Mario to the thousands Bowser can apprently produce. Note, "stone" blocks, Kain is millions times more durable than stone.

When he rolls up after Mario/luigi countered him, fleeing around the screen with fire dropping off him.

No, the game outlines this as does regular logic, Kain gains a spell in an earlier game, he still holds it later until otherwise stated, on the other hand my argument considers the fact Bowser has vastly unique sizes, attributes and stats in most of his games, in some hes very slow and ungainly, arguably less than human in speed, others he can fly through space, Kain as I said never gained a plot specific power up that I claimed he retained until present, for example what your doing for Bowser, would be equel to me claiming Kain is immune currently to the soul reaver just because while wearing the Nexus stone in BO 2 he was immune. In your best feat, inside stories iron ball Bowser even has mario and luigi amping Bowser at varying times, this is unique to other bowsers. I dont think Kain ever gained a plot specific amp that was relevent to specific external sources or artifacts.

😆 "everything else does" then you show me just another bowsers shell bounce. It seems you waffle on about irrelevence nonsense like consistency between Bowsers yet when it comes to providing evidence for this VS you fall flat, you cant show me Bowsers body taking pressures close to Kain, infact he gets launched all over the place from Mario, who you said has a few tons. Kains in for some turtle soup with one punch based on the evidence, or lack thereof of Bowsers durability.

Originally posted by Burning thought
I dont know where you got 3 seconds from, considering dimentional port takes less than a second or so to hit a few guys after teleporting (so the port itself takes a fraction of a second) and the one he does in the presence of Raziel in SR 1 took him about a second. I dont know about "fairly weak" just because it cant pull a solid kain although I dont recall him being in their vicinity while solid. What do you call "damage", gameplay stats? lol....good grief, your getting worse. Great, and in LoK Kain can stand in lava for a good few seconds regardless of his form before his health bar depletes, thats not a form of evidence, like your claims here its a gameplay mechanic. I dont see the evidence, just a claim, Kains sturdier than trees, by millions of times.

You know exactly where I got 3 seconds from.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zc_HM2vaTfU#t=2m47s
Kain's actual teleportation ability takes 3 seconds to complete, in cutscene. If you want to use the game Dimension Reaver it'll take even longer, what with Kain needing to feed the Reaver blood and all. The Vortex is "fairly weak" because it can't really affect a human sized target, but it can affect the lightweight mist that is Kain. Bowser can affect human sized targets, so his inhalation is stronger. Please, BT, tell me what you meant by "damage" if not gameplay? You stated that Bowser's flame didn't seem to do much "damage", so what did you base that on? For reference:

Originally posted by Burning thought
This also tells you that he can survive this damage, not just die instantly and lava is far hotter than Bowsers fireballs which do not seem to do much damage in the vids youve shown me, even bowser himself does not take much damage from him and note, Vortexes and Bowsers breath have something in common, easily avoidable and very short range.

What is your definition of "damage" here? In any case, how sturdy Kain is has no bearing on how flammable he is. Magnus can incinerate Kain easily and Fire Golems can keep him away with fire shields.

I dont just mean mario, I mean I could do it, anyone controlling mario moving at human speed as he does in most of these showings can percieve his attacks. Good, if you dont doubt it then were not in argument 😉 Bowsers range is fairly poor, Kain could throttle him with TK from range or at least bother him assuminh he needed to.

Anyone controlling Raziel can track and percieve Kain's attacks, so what's your point here? Bowser's range is long enough that Kain can't risk melee without getting killed.

No, i base his full strength off him pushing over the large obelisk, and even then I dont base his "full strength" from that, only the KMC forums does that because we usually take their best feat as their max, even if they did it easily. Whats the strength feat here supposed to prove? I dont know, based on that how heavy the ceiling is, or whats above it....for all I know its one floor or so, a few tons at best.

You missed the point entire. We have an example of a version of Bowser known to use claws, who is also extremely strong, which means your guess about Bowser not using claws for risk of damaging himself is false. If you'd played the game you'd known that there are several floors above it and it is designed as crushing trap.

Show me bowser changing from 8ft+ to supermario galaxy size in the same scene and it seems not, you just showed me him holding a ceiling, then in inside story hes holding up thousands of tons apprently, only to be really weak at his largest super mario galaxy size by only making small holes in a plantoid arguably smaller and certainly lighter/less durable than the iron ball he did while small. Well thats because hes gained those spells chronologically, they were not plot devices. Because iirc the planetoid looks like brick and is not much bigger than the iron ball previously shown, if he had thousands of tons of strength it should shatter into bits. I never bring up flay or putresence as something hes going to use in a vs though iirc unless I added it in the thread.....

Not only can I meet your challenge, I can do it in 2 different games.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fYGYljLmV4#t=4m25s
Mario Galaxy 2, Bowser goes from a little large than Mario to huge.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeSHF4DRs_E
You do know that it is a plot point in Bowser's Inside Story that Bowser can change his size based on his adrenaline level? Having a fight with a castle is just bonus.

Bowser is pretty consistent about his inconsistent size. Given, of course, that it is a natural ability of his. Why doesn't Kain ever use his spells that you keep bringing up, then?

So can you show me a claw using bowser striking someone proven durable? its important, although your strength feat is hardly useful, the idea of him using his claws with his full strength can only be proven if you can show me him striking something durable with them, otherwise considering the evidence hes going to shatter himself hitting Kain. Excuse me? lol, yes there is, if hes not got the durablity in his claws or himself to use with full strength, their going to shatter.....simple facts.

Anything that I could give you would be gameplay, though, which I'm decently sure you'd just throw out, anyway. On the off chance you don't though, here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Hr4TRCQSU4#t=17s

That is Smithy, the final boss of Super Mario RPG. He is made of metal and, if you noticed, capable of transforming his head into a fully functional tank. Bowser can slash and stab this as normal, so please stop with your durability nonsense.

No, you miss the point though, you seem to act like Bowsers capable of doing something that someone far faster and with higher reactions than a human could not counter, despite someone like mario or any human of note could also counter or in marios case, has. Mario moves at human speed, Kain is, as stated canonically faster on foot, let alone in mist, wolf or teleport form. 😆 i like how your comparing multiple tons from Mario to the thousands Bowser can apprently produce. Note, "stone" blocks, Kain is millions times more durable than stone.

But Kain isn't that fast. I can track his movement easily, Raziel can and has hit him, as has the Sarafan Lord. Mario is in the hundreds of tons and his metal hammer failed to harm Bowser's spikes, so for the second time your durability argument has failed, please stop it. Further, you seem to have missed the point of the body slam video, as that was to counter your "Bowser is light" argument, which it did. Kain is not that much more durable than stone since Raziel can hurt him.

When he rolls up after Mario/luigi countered him, fleeing around the screen with fire dropping off him.

Only you would interpret a counterattack as a weakness.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYsLSISF74o#t=2m5s

Bowser can fly when he's on fire for some reason.

No, the game outlines this as does regular logic, Kain gains a spell in an earlier game, he still holds it later until otherwise stated, on the other hand my argument considers the fact Bowser has vastly unique sizes, attributes and stats in most of his games, in some hes very slow and ungainly, arguably less than human in speed, others he can fly through space, Kain as I said never gained a plot specific power up that I claimed he retained until present, for example what your doing for Bowser, would be equel to me claiming Kain is immune currently to the soul reaver just because while wearing the Nexus stone in BO 2 he was immune. In your best feat, inside stories iron ball Bowser even has mario and luigi amping Bowser at varying times, this is unique to other bowsers. I dont think Kain ever gained a plot specific amp that was relevent to specific external sources or artifacts.

In quite a few of these cases Bowser never lost these abilities or has displayed them again in other games, notably without the plot specific devices. For instance, his ability to change size. And his base abilities don't tend to vary that much, you're just trying to make him seem weaker. Compared to Kain, who never used spells outside of one game, yet you keep trying to use.

😆 "everything else does" then you show me just another bowsers shell bounce. It seems you waffle on about irrelevence nonsense like consistency between Bowsers yet when it comes to providing evidence for this VS you fall flat, you cant show me Bowsers body taking pressures close to Kain, infact he gets launched all over the place from Mario, who you said has a few tons. Kains in for some turtle soup with one punch based on the evidence, or lack thereof of Bowsers durability.

Are you serious? I have already shown you a great amount of evidence of Bowser's durability surpassing Kain's. For instance, slashing metal objects, tanking blows from a hundred tonner Mario, breaking stone and brick with his body, and tanking massive explosions. Based on that evidence, a punch from Kain wouldn't harm Bowser at all. Heck, based on Bowser's shell tanking spikes that have stone crushing force behind them, the pressure there is far greater than Raziel's.

Originally posted by The Scenario
You know exactly where I got 3 seconds from.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zc_HM2vaTfU#t=2m47s
Kain's actual teleportation ability takes 3 seconds to complete, in cutscene. If you want to use the game Dimension Reaver it'll take even longer, what with Kain needing to feed the Reaver blood and all. The Vortex is "fairly weak" because it can't really affect a human sized target, but it can affect the lightweight mist that is Kain. Bowser can affect human sized targets, so his inhalation is stronger. Please, BT, tell me what you meant by "damage" if not gameplay? You stated that Bowser's flame didn't seem to do much "damage", so what did [b]you base that on? For reference:

What is your definition of "damage" here? In any case, how sturdy Kain is has no bearing on how flammable he is. Magnus can incinerate Kain easily and Fire Golems can keep him away with fire shields.

Anyone controlling Raziel can track and percieve Kain's attacks, so what's your point here? Bowser's range is long enough that Kain can't risk melee without getting killed.

You missed the point entire. We have an example of a version of Bowser known to use claws, who is also extremely strong, which means your guess about Bowser not using claws for risk of damaging himself is false. If you'd played the game you'd known that there are several floors above it and it is designed as crushing trap.

Not only can I meet your challenge, I can do it in 2 different games.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fYGYljLmV4#t=4m25s
Mario Galaxy 2, Bowser goes from a little large than Mario to huge.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeSHF4DRs_E
You do know that it is a plot point in Bowser's Inside Story that Bowser can change his size based on his adrenaline level? Having a fight with a castle is just bonus.

Bowser is pretty consistent about his inconsistent size. Given, of course, that it is a natural ability of his. Why doesn't Kain ever use his spells that you keep bringing up, then?

Anything that I could give you would be gameplay, though, which I'm decently sure you'd just throw out, anyway. On the off chance you don't though, here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Hr4TRCQSU4#t=17s

That is Smithy, the final boss of Super Mario RPG. He is made of metal and, if you noticed, capable of transforming his head into a fully functional tank. Bowser can slash and stab this as normal, so please stop with your durability nonsense.

But Kain isn't that fast. I can track his movement easily, Raziel can and has hit him, as has the Sarafan Lord. Mario is in the hundreds of tons and his metal hammer failed to harm Bowser's spikes, so for the second time your durability argument has failed, please stop it. Further, you seem to have missed the point of the body slam video, as that was to counter your "Bowser is light" argument, which it did. Kain is not that much more durable than stone since Raziel can hurt him.

Only you would interpret a counterattack as a weakness.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYsLSISF74o#t=2m5s

Bowser can fly when he's on fire for some reason.

In quite a few of these cases Bowser never lost these abilities or has displayed them again in other games, notably without the plot specific devices. For instance, his ability to change size. And his base abilities don't tend to vary that much, you're just trying to make him seem weaker. Compared to Kain, who never used spells outside of one game, yet you keep trying to use.

Are you serious? I have already shown you a great amount of evidence of Bowser's durability surpassing Kain's. For instance, slashing metal objects, tanking blows from a hundred tonner Mario, breaking stone and brick with his body, and tanking massive explosions. Based on that evidence, a punch from Kain wouldn't harm Bowser at all. Heck, based on Bowser's shell tanking spikes that have stone crushing force behind them, the pressure there is far greater than Raziel's. [/B]

1 second, he holds his hands up and then hes gone. Why your counting how long it takes him to appear again is anyones guess. "feeding the reaver" is a gameplay mechanic. I never use gameplay mechanics, I think its even in the rules that numerical mechanics are nonsense in a vs but you know what I meant, I have yet to see his fireballs melting through anytihng of note, or destroying it. The best youve shown me, is his fire breath burning a tree down....

Kain never moves fast when you control Raziel, you also have cutscenes and canon to depict Kains speed through mist, teleport or otherwise while ive never seen Bowser move quick, and most of the time when he uses his powers, hes at human speed. I am not sure Bowser has much range, wheres the range? further, he cant hit Kain, Kains too quick, he cant even hit mario, finally, even he he hits, evidence suggests nothing much will happen.

You do realise, him not using his claws to rsik damaging himself still applies until you show him hitting something durable. Him hitting hard with claws but only evidence suggests hes hitting weak pushovers does not help your case, also ive yet to see proof hes strong, only the ambigious "held up a ceiling". So only a few floors? how much do you even know is coming down on him? not a lot of info there buddy.

You just confirmed what I was suggesting, thanks. Youve show me two, unique plot specific reasons for his powers. in your first video he eats a star to get large, in the second you point out he needs to build adrenaline? You just confirmed 100% what I was saying, he has unique stats, powers and abilities relevent to what he shows in each different game.

😆 I like how a point that legitamatly ruins your argument for Bowser harming Kain physically is "nonsense", you show me a rough piece of gameplay where no physcal damage is shown because its gameplay mechanics. I guess we can conclude Bowser cant use his claws on something durable (the boss is featless even if it was a cutscene I presume?), anything close to Kain that can give some resistance. Therefore, any strike on Kain from Bowser using his full 6k tons of strength= bowsers death. Maybe for lulz Kain will inspire hate or mind control him to hit him.

Hes faster than any human, Mario is not much quicker than a human if at all and he can bypass/dodge bowsers attacks not to mension the long list of teleports/mist form, Bowser cannot hit anything here apart from kains sword down his throat. Raziels never damaged Kain without a plot device that Bowser has no access to.

It was a weakness, why would he move around the screen with fire burning off him? looks relevent considering they just burned him. Also tha just looks like the "adrenaline" animation from your last vid, he has a "burn" effect when he does physical work, which by the looks of it was amped by Mario and luigi.

Well I would like to show these cases, you just proved for me two of my claims above, with Bowser needing amps or power ups relevent to the game specifically or its universe. I dont know why you keep bringing Kain up in this part of the dicussion when this is about bowser and his plot devices, Kain as I said has none, his spells regardless of when he uses them, if at all are canon and remain until the storyline says otherwise.

😆 The question is are you serious? kain has star core pressure durability, triple earth core durability per square mm of skin and your comparing it to metal balls and scraping metal? 🙄 you make some fanciful claims then back them up with nonsense. Based on that evidence, Bowser has prboably a few tons of durability, one claw slash from Kains fingers and he would likely "gib", e.g. splatter from the force. Stone, brick and slashing metal (supposedly) does not>>>Earth core pressure x3....

Originally posted by Burning thought
1 second, he holds his hands up and then hes gone. Why your counting how long it takes him to appear again is anyones guess. "feeding the reaver" is a gameplay mechanic. I never use gameplay mechanics, I think its even in the rules that numerical mechanics are nonsense in a vs but you know what I meant, I have yet to see his fireballs melting through anytihng of note, or destroying it. The best youve shown me, is his fire breath burning a tree down....

He holds his hand up and glows for 2 seconds, did you forget to count that? If you count the time it takes to reappear it's 6 seconds. Oh, so you think that Kain can just do the Dimensional teleport whenever he wants, despite the fact it's clearly intended as a limited use ability? And please stop ignoring Bowser's fire destroying brick and stone, it's getting annoying that you just latched onto the trees and think that's it. Can you show me a Fire Demon doing that? Or a Vampire golem? Didn't think so.

Kain never moves fast when you control Raziel, you also have cutscenes and canon to depict Kains speed through mist, teleport or otherwise while ive never seen Bowser move quick, and most of the time when he uses his powers, hes at human speed. I am not sure Bowser has much range, wheres the range? further, he cant hit Kain, Kains too quick, he cant even hit mario, finally, even he he hits, evidence suggests nothing much will happen.

Bowser never moves fast when you control Mario, you also have cutscenes and canon to depict Bowser's speed through rolling and punching. Kain doesn't move very fast in his normal form, though, and his mist can be hurt by magical attacks and lava, which Bowser's flame in hotter than. Evidence suggests that Bowser's flame will act just like Magnus' when it hits Kain.

You do realise, him not using his claws to rsik damaging himself still applies until you show him hitting something durable. Him hitting hard with claws but only evidence suggests hes hitting weak pushovers does not help your case, also ive yet to see proof hes strong, only the ambigious "held up a ceiling". So only a few floors? how much do you even know is coming down on him? not a lot of info there buddy.

I already showed you Bowser hitting metal with claws, your argument here has already failed. Further, the ceiling barely matters, but again it is several floors below a huge castle. Not a lot more info is needed.

You just confirmed what I was suggesting, thanks. Youve show me two, unique plot specific reasons for his powers. in your first video he eats a star to get large, in the second you point out he needs to build adrenaline? You just confirmed 100% what I was saying, he has unique stats, powers and abilities relevent to what he shows in each different game.

Except that you're grasping at straws again. Bowser's base stats aren't changing.

😆 I like how a point that legitamatly ruins your argument for Bowser harming Kain physically is "nonsense", you show me a rough piece of gameplay where no physcal damage is shown because its gameplay mechanics. I guess we can conclude Bowser cant use his claws on something durable (the boss is featless even if it was a cutscene I presume?), anything close to Kain that can give some resistance. Therefore, any strike on Kain from Bowser using his full 6k tons of strength= bowsers death. Maybe for lulz Kain will inspire hate or mind control him to hit him.

And you have successfully proved my point that you ignore what you don't like. Congratulations on doing exactly what I said you'd do by throwing out the evidence that ruins your argument. You asked for Bowser hitting something durable with claws and I provided it, yet you're just going to declare it doesn't count? How about you show me Kain hitting anything durable with his claws? Can you do that?

Hes faster than any human, Mario is not much quicker than a human if at all and he can bypass/dodge bowsers attacks not to mension the long list of teleports/mist form, Bowser cannot hit anything here apart from kains sword down his throat. Raziels never damaged Kain without a plot device that Bowser has no access to.

Kain isn't that fast without mist form, and that's still vulnerable to Bowser. He's been hit by slower characters. Bowser's flame covers a huge area, and that only needs to brush Kain to kill him. False, Raziel hurts Kain in Soul Reaver with no plot devices and Bowser has access to magic.

It was a weakness, why would he move around the screen with fire burning off him? looks relevent considering they just burned him. Also tha just looks like the "adrenaline" animation from your last vid, he has a "burn" effect when he does physical work, which by the looks of it was amped by Mario and luigi.

Well, for one thing Bowser gets much faster, gains the ability to fly, and can launch fireballs everywhere. I'd love to see Kain try to hit Bowser with fire only to end up fighting a much tougher opponent. It's such a great weakness that Bowser gets even more powerful.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhUragy-MCU#t=3m55s

You think Mario and Luigi were amping him during this?

Well I would like to show these cases, you just proved for me two of my claims above, with Bowser needing amps or power ups relevent to the game specifically or its universe. I dont know why you keep bringing Kain up in this part of the dicussion when this is about bowser and his plot devices, Kain as I said has none, his spells regardless of when he uses them, if at all are canon and remain until the storyline says otherwise.

Except that his abilities aren't changing. Just like Kain has never used those spells.

😆 The question is are you serious? kain has star core pressure durability, triple earth core durability per square mm of skin and your comparing it to metal balls and scraping metal? 🙄 you make some fanciful claims then back them up with nonsense. Based on that evidence, Bowser has prboably a few tons of durability, one claw slash from Kains fingers and he would likely "gib", e.g. splatter from the force. Stone, brick and slashing metal (supposedly) does not>>>Earth core pressure x3....

I am completely serious, but it seems you aren't if you're just going to say something false like Kain having star core durability. Raziel can hurt him, the Sarafan Lord can hurt him, Bowser can destroy him. One hit with fire is all it will really take, given Kain's weakness to it. On the other hand, Bowser has tanked more than Kain ever has. He's been hit by spikes with more strength than Raziel behind them, so it's essentially like he tanked hits from a stronger Raziel. Which is better than Kain's durability. Not to mention the explosions he's tanked, too. Can Raziel break stone with his claws? No, he can't. Bowser can, so he's sharp points with more strength than Raziel, too. Really, based on the evidence, Kain is in seriously trouble.

Originally posted by The Scenario
He holds his hand up and glows for 2 seconds, did you forget to count that? If you count the time it takes to reappear it's 6 seconds. Oh, so you think that Kain can just do the Dimensional teleport whenever he wants, despite the fact it's clearly intended as a limited use ability? And please stop ignoring Bowser's fire destroying brick and stone, it's getting annoying that you just latched onto the trees and think that's it. Can you show me a Fire Demon doing that? Or a Vampire golem? Didn't think so.

Bowser never moves fast when you control Mario, you also have cutscenes and canon to depict Bowser's speed through rolling and punching. Kain doesn't move very fast in his normal form, though, and his mist can be hurt by magical attacks and lava, which Bowser's flame in hotter than. Evidence suggests that Bowser's flame will act just like Magnus' when it hits Kain.

I already showed you Bowser hitting metal with claws, your argument here has already failed. Further, the ceiling barely matters, but again it is several floors below a huge castle. Not a lot more info is needed.

Except that you're grasping at straws again. Bowser's base stats aren't changing.

And you have successfully proved my point that you ignore what you don't like. Congratulations on doing exactly what I said you'd do by throwing out the evidence that ruins your argument. You asked for Bowser hitting something durable with claws and I provided it, yet you're just going to declare it doesn't count? How about you show me Kain hitting anything durable with his claws? Can you do that?

Kain isn't that fast without mist form, and that's still vulnerable to Bowser. He's been hit by slower characters. Bowser's flame covers a huge area, and that only needs to brush Kain to kill him. False, Raziel hurts Kain in Soul Reaver with no plot devices and Bowser has access to magic.

Well, for one thing Bowser gets much faster, gains the ability to fly, and can launch fireballs everywhere. I'd love to see Kain try to hit Bowser with fire only to end up fighting a much tougher opponent. It's such a great weakness that Bowser gets even more powerful.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhUragy-MCU#t=3m55s

You think Mario and Luigi were amping him during this?

Except that his abilities aren't changing. Just like Kain has never used those spells.

I am completely serious, but it seems you aren't if you're just going to say something false like Kain having star core durability. Raziel can hurt him, the Sarafan Lord can hurt him, Bowser can destroy him. One hit with fire is all it will really take, given Kain's weakness to it. On the other hand, Bowser has tanked more than Kain ever has. He's been hit by spikes with more strength than Raziel behind them, so it's essentially like he tanked hits from a stronger Raziel. Which is better than Kain's durability. Not to mention the explosions he's tanked, too. Can Raziel break stone with his claws? No, he can't. Bowser can, so he's sharp points with more strength than Raziel, too. Really, based on the evidence, Kain is in seriously trouble.

Just over 2:49 he starts energy through his hands, at about 2:50 he has become energy and dissipates less than a fraction of a second later, this is all well outside Bowsers reaction time and once Kains teleported, Bowser does not even know where he is. Of course he can as long as he holds the reaver, there was no "intension" other than yours to diminish Kain, the spell was simply a power he gained from the dimension emblem, ime sure it was limited use in gameplay mechanics but a lot of powers are, hell in most RPG's a simple slash with your sowrd, or a smite with your shield has a cool down. Do what? burn trees? any fire can burn trees as for brick and stone, show me that one again please.

When in cutscenes does Bowser move fast? show me this please, ive yet to see him move quickly when in any serious fight. Above human speed, and he can move several meters in less than a second when he attacks moebius without even moving his legs. I dont know about hotter than lava but more importantly you like to ignore he can go in and out of mist instantly. Not really because magnus is more powerful, being able to destroy large statues, further Magnus, unlike bowser does not have to aim, its created purely through his mind which reminds me, Kain can now do this too, incinerating Bowser form inside out, fight fire with fire although the turtle soup will be ruined.

No not at all, youve shown me a rough depiction of gameplay and metal is not durable, I dont know how durable that robot is. I like how desperate you are to claim my argument has failed when youve yet to convince me with your bowsers claw durability.

😆 yes because him being smaller or larger is not a change, or the fact hes weak as a kitten hitting planetoids but strong when lifting an iron ball with mario/luigi inside. Your feats come from several games, many of them with power ups like this present.

How can I counter it? even typing a counter relevent to whats in the video if I ignored it? You state anything that fails to impress me as "ignored" apprently. No, you provided him hitting a robot in gameplay, whos body no doubt has no feats, also by durable I am talking about thousands of tons of pressure resistance durable. Ive got Raziel doing it, and Kains physiology is Raziels+

Fast enough to avoid bowser considering the evidence, more than fast enough and if Kain thought it wasnt, one teleport quickly and easily gets him to where he wants to go. 😆 huge? we were discussing 7-10feet earlier, thats not huge, thats tiny so what are you talking about? "brush Kain", whats this based on? "define" hurt exactly? no physical damage present and it would seem he must have gotten stronger between then and the end of the game, either that or you realise he was more bothered by his spell being interrupted because if you noticed he holds his face, which Raziel never seems to hit.

lol much "tougher"= moving blind at a few meters a second with dripping fireballs under him? At that rate hes going to end up with the reaver stuck in him, and not even realise it because hes in his shell. No, but luigi caused what happened, he repelled Bowsers own flame, which burned bowser which made him race around above them.

Yes, thats why he can now suddenly fly and do other things while large but loses most of his strength. Which does not scale with his size but gets less so....also, both of your vids show an external amp, not something bowser does by himself on the fly.

Thats been proving mathmatically in the game math thread, the whole of bowsers strength that you supported earlier (hypocrite when it suits you) also came from something similiar. Raziel cannot do any physcial damage without a plot device, the Saran lord has not been around for millenia so I dont know how hes relevent, Bowser cant do anything dear, he has no feats but you chanting that wont impress me. What spikes? I have looked through all your vids, never has he tanked anything of the like. With pressure of the earths core, yes he can slice through any man made or natural compound on earth several times over. The evidence that bowser is slow, fairly unintelligent, slow to react and has no durability or power feats to face Kain means Kain is in trouble? damn....thats some funny ol logic, I thought the fact the evidence suggests Kain is invulnerable to Bowser and can one shot him with any of his weapons or spells would mean Bowser was in "seriously" trouble to put it in your words 😉 .

Originally posted by Burning thought
Just over 2:49 he starts energy through his hands, at about 2:50 he has become energy and dissipates less than a fraction of a second later, this is all well outside Bowsers reaction time and once Kains teleported, Bowser does not even know where he is. Of course he can as long as he holds the reaver, there was no "intension" other than yours to diminish Kain, the spell was simply a power he gained from the dimension emblem, ime sure it was limited use in gameplay mechanics but a lot of powers are, hell in most RPG's a simple slash with your sowrd, or a smite with your shield has a cool down. Do what? burn trees? any fire can burn trees as for brick and stone, show me that one again please.

A 2:49 he starts, and doesn't fully disappear until 2:51. Bowser's fire breath has less start up time than that, so trying to teleport won't end well for Kain. You honestly believe that Kain can use the Dimension Reaver whenever he wants? It's canon that the Reaver needs to be fed blood, and Kain needs to feed it before he can use the fragments. It's not power Kain has, either; it's a power that the dimension fragment granted the Reaver, and the Reaver is the on using the power. And the Reaver needs blood. Now, do you really think that any fire can burn a tree to ash in less than 3 seconds? Please prove this, if you can.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Thiln_i5eGg#t=1m41s

Here's your brick example. Bowser can destroy the metal pipes, too, but it doesn't happen in this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwE0YL9o_zs#t=6m

Same thing, but underwater.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5R-NOKQams#t=1m30s

Stone. Only Magnus could pull these off, and he kills Kain in one hit.

When in cutscenes does Bowser move fast? show me this please, ive yet to see him move quickly when in any serious fight. Above human speed, and he can move several meters in less than a second when he attacks moebius without even moving his legs. I dont know about hotter than lava but more importantly you like to ignore he can go in and out of mist instantly. Not really because magnus is more powerful, being able to destroy large statues, further Magnus, unlike bowser does not have to aim, its created purely through his mind which reminds me, Kain can now do this too, incinerating Bowser form inside out, fight fire with fire although the turtle soup will be ruined.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usuHbJC5BEU#t=7m45s
There, several meters just like Kain against RazielMoebius. Now, then, Bowser's breath is still roughly as powerful as or more powerful than Magnus' immolate, given that it destroys bricks and metal underwater, so it would still one-shot Kain. Actually, Magnus does have to aim, since he's still capable of missing Kain and instead hitting the statue. If he didn't have to aim it would hit Kain regardless of where he was. Now, I think you're being a bit dishonest here. For one, isn't that "a different version" of Kain that can use immolate? His abilities vary from game to game after all, so it'd be hypocritical to let Kain use everything and not let Bowser as well. Second, Kain needs to build his rage before he can do it. Third, ridiculously slow cast time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Thqb619yWVU#t=5m18s
That is in excess of 5 seconds. Bowser will have killed Kain by that point. And finally, immolation won't kill Bowser. He's tanked much stronger explosions that Magnus or Kain can dish out. Blow up a statue?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaUl2HRcn2A#t=1m12s
Try Bowser in an exploding castle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0SizP0U-uQ#t=6m
Try Bowser spending upwards of 30 seconds on fire, before being tossed halfway across the country by a massive pile of bombs. No, trying to use immolation on Bowser is just Kain's overly elaborate suicide plan.

No not at all, youve shown me a rough depiction of gameplay and metal is not durable, I dont know how durable that robot is. I like how desperate you are to claim my argument has failed when youve yet to convince me with your bowsers claw durability.

I gave you what you asked for and you're trying to brush it off like it doesn't exist. Really, metal isn't durable? It's more durable than flesh, and styled like tank armor. Why do I even need to convince of claw durability specifically? Bowser's tanked multiple huge explosions that have covered his entire body, including his claws. That alone points to more durability than you're trying and failing to imply.

😆 yes because him being smaller or larger is not a change, or the fact hes weak as a kitten hitting planetoids but strong when lifting an iron ball with mario/luigi inside. Your feats come from several games, many of them with power ups like this present.

Last time I checked, kittens couldn't make huge holes in planetoids. Heck, you don't know how durable that planetoid is. Are you ignoring the multiple meteor strikes it also tanked? You're still being hypocritical about Kain, trying to use immolate from Blood Omen 2 at the same time as Defiance's mist form. Especially when Blood Omen 1's mist is superior to both. These are also highly different abilities, no?

How can I counter it? even typing a counter relevent to whats in the video if I ignored it? You state anything that fails to impress me as "ignored" apprently. No, you provided him hitting a robot in gameplay, whos body no doubt has no feats, also by durable I am talking about thousands of tons of pressure resistance durable. Ive got Raziel doing it, and Kains physiology is Raziels+

Exactly, you're just throwing out what you don't like, which is Bowser hitting metal with claws. The robot tanks a large fall and gets angry, that's about it. Regardless, the explosions that Bowser tanks are plenty for his durability. You haven't proven that Kain's physiology is above Raziel's in any way.

Fast enough to avoid bowser considering the evidence, more than fast enough and if Kain thought it wasnt, one teleport quickly and easily gets him to where he wants to go. 😆 huge? we were discussing 7-10feet earlier, thats not huge, thats tiny so what are you talking about? "brush Kain", whats this based on? "define" hurt exactly? no physical damage present and it would seem he must have gotten stronger between then and the end of the game, either that or you realise he was more bothered by his spell being interrupted because if you noticed he holds his face, which Raziel never seems to hit.

Kain's teleport is still too slow against Bowser, and Bowser still need only brush Kain with the fire to win. By which I mean "catch Kain in it's large conical radius," which as demonstrated by Magnus is enough to kill him. Raziel hit Kain and hurt him, where are you getting this "spell interrupted" nonsense from? If that's all it takes, then Bowser just needs to hit Kain during a spell to win. That's pretty pathetic.

lol much "tougher"= moving blind at a few meters a second with dripping fireballs under him? At that rate hes going to end up with the reaver stuck in him, and not even realise it because hes in his shell. No, but luigi caused what happened, he repelled Bowsers own flame, which burned bowser which made him race around above them.

Blind? Bowser is fully in control and can see where he's going in ball form. Plus, with his shell's durability, Bowser won't even notice the Reaver as it bounces off of him, and his spikes with mess Kain up royally.

Yes, thats why he can now suddenly fly and do other things while large but loses most of his strength. Which does not scale with his size but gets less so....also, both of your vids show an external amp, not something bowser does by himself on the fly.

Why doesn't Bowser have access to this stuff again?

Thats been proving mathmatically in the game math thread, the whole of bowsers strength that you supported earlier (hypocrite when it suits you) also came from something similiar. Raziel cannot do any physcial damage without a plot device, the Saran lord has not been around for millenia so I dont know how hes relevent, Bowser cant do anything dear, he has no feats but you chanting that wont impress me. What spikes? I have looked through all your vids, never has he tanked anything of the like. With pressure of the earths core, yes he can slice through any man made or natural compound on earth several times over. The evidence that bowser is slow, fairly unintelligent, slow to react and has no durability or power feats to face Kain means Kain is in trouble? damn....thats some funny ol logic, I thought the fact the evidence suggests Kain is invulnerable to Bowser and can one shot him with any of his weapons or spells would mean Bowser was in "seriously" trouble to put it in your words 😉 .

It really hasn't, though, since not much of that has been cleared. It's incorrect since Raziel is able to hurt Kain, which mean he does not have star core durability, as you based that off of Raziel hitting Kain. Do you have memory trouble? Honest question, because it seems you've already forgotten this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxJDa6QgBm0#t=5m50s

Bowser's shell tanks blows from Dark Bowser's shell, both of which are spiked and more than capable of crushing multiple layers of stone. Which is notably above Raziel, who cannot break break stone with claws.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0mr_VfbURU

So many stone statues shattered by someone's spiked shell.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3G8uyiUS1U#t=4m27s
And rolling on spikes.

Originally posted by The Scenario
A 2:49 he starts, and doesn't fully disappear until 2:51. Bowser's fire breath has less start up time than that, so trying to teleport won't end well for Kain. You honestly believe that Kain can use the Dimension Reaver whenever he wants? It's canon that the Reaver needs to be fed blood, and Kain needs to feed it before he can use the fragments. It's not power Kain has, either; it's a power that the dimension fragment granted the Reaver, and the Reaver is the on using the power. And the Reaver needs blood. Now, do you really think that any fire can burn a tree to ash in less than 3 seconds? Please prove this, if you can.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Thiln_i5eGg#t=1m41s

Here's your brick example. Bowser can destroy the metal pipes, too, but it doesn't happen in this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwE0YL9o_zs#t=6m

Same thing, but underwater.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5R-NOKQams#t=1m30s

Stone. Only Magnus could pull these off, and he kills Kain in one hit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usuHbJC5BEU#t=7m45s
There, several meters just like Kain against RazielMoebius. Now, then, Bowser's breath is still roughly as powerful as or more powerful than Magnus' immolate, given that it destroys bricks and metal underwater, so it would still one-shot Kain. Actually, Magnus does have to aim, since he's still capable of missing Kain and instead hitting the statue. If he didn't have to aim it would hit Kain regardless of where he was. Now, I think you're being a bit dishonest here. For one, isn't that "a different version" of Kain that can use immolate? His abilities vary from game to game after all, so it'd be hypocritical to let Kain use everything and not let Bowser as well. Second, Kain needs to build his rage before he can do it. Third, ridiculously slow cast time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Thqb619yWVU#t=5m18s
That is in excess of 5 seconds. Bowser will have killed Kain by that point. And finally, immolation won't kill Bowser. He's tanked much stronger explosions that Magnus or Kain can dish out. Blow up a statue?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaUl2HRcn2A#t=1m12s
Try Bowser in an exploding castle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0SizP0U-uQ#t=6m
Try Bowser spending upwards of 30 seconds on fire, before being tossed halfway across the country by a massive pile of bombs. No, trying to use immolation on Bowser is just Kain's overly elaborate suicide plan.

I gave you what you asked for and you're trying to brush it off like it doesn't exist. Really, metal isn't durable? It's more durable than flesh, and styled like tank armor. Why do I even need to convince of claw durability specifically? Bowser's tanked multiple huge explosions that have covered his entire body, including his claws. That alone points to more durability than you're trying and failing to imply.

Last time I checked, kittens couldn't make huge holes in planetoids. Heck, you don't know how durable that planetoid is. Are you ignoring the multiple meteor strikes it also tanked? You're still being hypocritical about Kain, trying to use immolate from Blood Omen 2 at the same time as Defiance's mist form. Especially when Blood Omen 1's mist is superior to both. These are also highly different abilities, no?

Exactly, you're just throwing out what you don't like, which is Bowser hitting metal with claws. The robot tanks a large fall and gets angry, that's about it. Regardless, the explosions that Bowser tanks are plenty for his durability. You haven't proven that Kain's physiology is above Raziel's in any way.

Kain's teleport is still too slow against Bowser, and Bowser still need only brush Kain with the fire to win. By which I mean "catch Kain in it's large conical radius," which as demonstrated by Magnus is enough to kill him. Raziel hit Kain and hurt him, where are you getting this "spell interrupted" nonsense from? If that's all it takes, then Bowser just needs to hit Kain during a spell to win. That's pretty pathetic.

Blind? Bowser is fully in control and can see where he's going in ball form. Plus, with his shell's durability, Bowser won't even notice the Reaver as it bounces off of him, and his spikes with mess Kain up royally.

Why doesn't Bowser have access to this stuff again?

It really hasn't, though, since not much of that has been cleared. It's incorrect since Raziel is able to hurt Kain, which mean he does not have star core durability, as you based that off of Raziel hitting Kain. Do you have memory trouble? Honest question, because it seems you've already forgotten this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxJDa6QgBm0#t=5m50s

Bowser's shell tanks blows from Dark Bowser's shell, both of which are spiked and more than capable of crushing multiple layers of stone. Which is notably above Raziel, who cannot break break stone with claws.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0mr_VfbURU

So many stone statues shattered by someone's spiked shell.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3G8uyiUS1U#t=4m27s
And rolling on spikes.

Hes energy before 2:51, nothing but light for a fraction of a second, bowsers not "burning" light so it will end fine and your talking as if he going to teleport while standing right next to bowser whos range is quite short. Of course he can, its a teleport like any other and no, its canon the reaver "drinks" blood, not needs to be fed anything, its not an animal hungry for scraps. I dont recall the burning or ash, if its anything like the rest of your proof its poor.

Take these "bricks", whatever htey are or made off, they dont burn, they collapse, they dont evne break, it seems the pressure of hte flames causes most of Bowsers power here, the heat is negligible since they dont even start to melt or glow hot.

Again, pressure, and those fireballs move at like what? 1 meter a minute? I could side step that from a few meters away let alone Kain.

NOt sure what your showing me, he seems to just disapear, could not even be him doing this power. This is not Blood omen 2 Kain...so wrong again. Magnus has no projectile, but he cant target Kain if he cant see him, the same cant be said for bowser. Incinerate has 1 second cast time, the actual spell includes lifting the target up in a paralyzed state, mechanics you like using again and finally its not just an explosion, its heat as well. Castles not much bigger than he is?

No metal is not durable, not millions of pressure durable. You dont know anything about pressure, small explosions do not equel millions of tons of force or star core pressure, not even earth core pressure (what hes feeling from Kains claws), yet your best is him clawring at robots.

I can see what the planetoids made of, some of them seem to be made of brick. Bowsers punch cant make much more than a dent. Its probably ligher than the iron ball and if we know anything about planetary bodies, their often hollow. I know your mokcing me but what are you trying to relate here? kain gains spells and powers in previous games, still has them later since nothing has removed them? what ae you getting at? or are you upset because unlike Bowser Kain does not rely on plot items for his power?

Kain can take Raziels claw blow, Raziel takes wounds from humans, Kain is stronger, he also manhandles raziel often in the same scene so i dont know what your talking about. 😆 a large fall and gets angry? holy shit he must be made of adamantium! "sigh" a bit of humour there but seriously, is that all he can do? So again, cant use claws for fear of killing himself when hitting kain.

Not at all, and your assuming Bowser starts of right next to Kain about to breathe fire with his obvious "motion" to do so, which Kain could halt twice as face with a sword strike. First, if he makes kain groan and hold his face does not mean he wins and second, Kains not used that spell in a long time.

Can you prove this? his motion seems random to me. yeh, your ignoring evidence again, any argument of this scope seems to tire you out into spamming "I dont have any figuires or evidence but Bowsers durable enough!".

Well where do I start? in this vs does he have a star to chomp like in Galaxy that you showed me to get big? no, does he have mario brothers inside him? no, does he have low gravity worlds to aid his movement/weightlessness? no.

What? yes it has, Dadumon and Morridini, if you want to argue with them and think their wrong then go ahead but since you cant understand it it would be a waste of time. Raziel uses the reaver to harm Kain, thats it really, no other time has Kain been pierced.

😆 multiple layers of stone vs x3 earth core pressure, wow I wonder. Stop spamming nonsense.

You may as well stop now if all your going to do is insult me by claiming "stone" statues and platforms are impressive.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Hes energy before 2:51, nothing but light for a fraction of a second, bowsers not "burning" light so it will end fine and your talking as if he going to teleport while standing right next to bowser whos range is quite short. Of course he can, its a teleport like any other and no, its canon the reaver "drinks" blood, not needs to be fed anything, its not an animal hungry for scraps. I dont recall the burning or ash, if its anything like the rest of your proof its poor.
Take these "bricks", whatever htey are or made off, they dont burn, they collapse, they dont evne break, it seems the pressure of hte flames causes most of Bowsers power here, the heat is negligible since they dont even start to melt or glow hot.
Again, pressure, and those fireballs move at like what? 1 meter a minute? I could side step that from a few meters away let alone Kain.

He still doesn't finish until 2:51, so Kain's still vulnerable in the 3 seconds it takes him. Why else would Kain teleport? Unless he's trying to get closer, in which case he still takes 3 seconds to appear again and is helpless. The Reaver is stated to have an insatiable bloodlust, it very much is hungry for scraps of energy, so that it can use its Reaver Spells. You don't see the trees burning to ash?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vt1VNEWl9I0#t=4m55s

Show me a normal fire doing that.

As for the bricks, no, that's pretty much exactly how Magnus destroys statues, so it still works on Kain. It's possibly Bowser superheats them to the point that parts of them flash from solid to gas instantly and then expand, causing an explosion. That's pressure.

NOt sure what your showing me, he seems to just disapear, could not even be him doing this power. This is not Blood omen 2 Kain...so wrong again. Magnus has no projectile, but he cant target Kain if he cant see him, the same cant be said for bowser. Incinerate has 1 second cast time, the actual spell includes lifting the target up in a paralyzed state, mechanics you like using again and finally its not just an explosion, its heat as well. Castles not much bigger than he is?

You mean you couldn't track Bowser's movement there? Happy Day for me, then. Kain hasn't gained any fire resistance since Blood Omen 2, has he? No, so Bowser's still one-shotting him. Magnus does aim, is the point, and no, Kain has to take a few seconds to charge up before he even lifts the target, and after a while like that there's a pitifully tiny explosion compared to anything that's hit Bowser. Bowser would have blasted Kain several times over by that point.

No metal is not durable, not millions of pressure durable. You dont know anything about pressure, small explosions do not equel millions of tons of force or star core pressure, not even earth core pressure (what hes feeling from Kains claws), yet your best is him clawring at robots.

Show me Raziel clawing metal. See, the thing about your star core nonsense is that it's based entirely around Raziel's claws and strength. Bowser is stronger than Raziel, and has claws and spikes. His attacks are superior to Raziel's in every way, multiple times over. That's the problem; Bowser can hit several times harder and with more pressure than Raziel, so guess what? Bowser's outputting star core pressure, too, if that's how you want to phrase it.

I can see what the planetoids made of, some of them seem to be made of brick. Bowsers punch cant make much more than a dent. Its probably ligher than the iron ball and if we know anything about planetary bodies, their often hollow. I know your mokcing me but what are you trying to relate here? kain gains spells and powers in previous games, still has them later since nothing has removed them? what ae you getting at? or are you upset because unlike Bowser Kain does not rely on plot items for his power?

You're guessing. You don't know how durable the planetoid is so you just assume Bowser is weak. That's nice. Further, I'm not mocking you, I'm just wondering how you don't see this double standard. Kain has different abilities in different games, but you're applying all of them to him while denying that to Bowser.

Kain can take Raziels claw blow, Raziel takes wounds from humans, Kain is stronger, he also manhandles raziel often in the same scene so i dont know what your talking about. 😆 a large fall and gets angry? holy shit he must be made of adamantium! "sigh" a bit of humour there but seriously, is that all he can do? So again, cant use claws for fear of killing himself when hitting kain.

Raziel can hurt Kain, though. If Raziel isn't durable, why don't his claws break when he hits Kain? I mean, Raziel takes wounds from humans, right? Obviously, Raziel can't use claws for risking of killing himself when hitting Kain; oh wait, no, that's wrong. Raziel's weakling self hits Kain and hurts him, Bowser is infinitely stronger and more durable than Raziel (claws and all,) so he'd tear Kain apart.

Not at all, and your assuming Bowser starts of right next to Kain about to breathe fire with his obvious "motion" to do so, which Kain could halt twice as face with a sword strike. First, if he makes kain groan and hold his face does not mean he wins and second, Kains not used that spell in a long time.

Even if they start off a few meters away, Bowser's fire can reach pretty far, and he can just go ball form or teleport if he needs to close distance. Point is, Kain's best bet is ranges, since melee will never go well for him. If Bowser makes Kain hold his face (though it's more likely that Bowser will be holding Kain's face), he'll be stunned long enough to be finished off.

Can you prove this? his motion seems random to me. yeh, your ignoring evidence again, any argument of this scope seems to tire you out into spamming "I dont have any figuires or evidence but Bowsers durable enough!".

I've already posted so many videos of Bowser in control of his ball form that I'm surprised you would even ask this. I mean honestly, this was in the last post:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0mr_VfbURU
Further, I don't understand how you keep ignoring Bowser's durability. He's tanked explosions (which I have shown videos of), he's tanked spikes (which I have shown you videos of), and he's tanked the crushing force of ceilings, giant iron balls, and spiked shells with his own strength behind them (which I have shown you videos of.) At this point I must wonder if you're trolling me, because you can't possibly have seen all of it and still honestly say I have no evidence. Are you just ignoring it?

Well where do I start? in this vs does he have a star to chomp like in Galaxy that you showed me to get big? no, does he have mario brothers inside him? no, does he have low gravity worlds to aid his movement/weightlessness? no.

I don't see how those even matter, though. I haven't been posting feats that use those devices, so I don't see what you're objecting to. The iron ball and fire/explosion/spiked shell tanking are done without Mario bro intervention, he can grow giant without a star, and I've never brought up his movement in a Galaxy game, so I really don't see why you're objecting to my using base feats.

What? yes it has, Dadumon and Morridini, if you want to argue with them and think their wrong then go ahead but since you cant understand it it would be a waste of time. Raziel uses the reaver to harm Kain, thats it really, no other time has Kain been pierced.

Point me where either of them calculated Raziel's claws as producing star core pressures, please. I looked over the thread and all you seem to have gotten was the force he exerted tipping the monolith, and nothing about the tips of his claws. So the "star core" thing is, as far as I am aware, all you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LulD2kar9I#t=3m50s
Raziel harms Kain here, that ruins your calculation anyway since it assumes Raziel can't harm Kain. And what with Bowser being stronger than Raziel, can do worse, though, really, breathing fire would be much easier.

😆 multiple layers of stone vs x3 earth core pressure, wow I wonder. Stop spamming nonsense.

I don't think you understand what I'm saying here. Your calculation here is based on Raziel's strength and claws. Now, we know that Raziel cannot break stone with his claws (he simply pierces it a little.) Bowser, on the other hand, is capable of destroying stone with his spiked shell, or piercing rock walls. This proves that Bowser is exerting more force than Raziel. Now, since Bowser's shell is spiked, it focuses all of that stronger-than-Raziel force into tiny areas, and would produce more pressure on those points than Raziel can on his claws. So if Raziel is producing star core pressures, Bowser is producing much more than that, seeing as he has much more force than Raziel, who cannot destroy stone. This isn't difficult.

You may as well stop now if all your going to do is insult me by claiming "stone" statues and platforms are impressive.

Then stop insulting me by saying Raziel's claws are impressive compared to Bowser.

Originally posted by The Scenario

Not if all it is, is energy or light left behind, theres no physical Kain there and as I said, 1-2 seconds? it would take Bowser a lot longer to get tehre AND use an attack. Why would he be helpess also your adding a lot of time to these attacks, if thats how it is, bowser takes 10 seconds to breathe fire! we can all add time. It has bloodlust, thats all there is to it since its a vampiric weapon, theres no "hunger" tbh outside of the metaphorical idea that it devours blood, it doesnt say "well thats nice, ime all full up now!". lol, it never had reaver spells until the emblems add it, emblems that also power kain, your making things up as usual.

They just disapear.

No because magnus blows up statues but we also know it burns flesh, thats why its called incienrate, the heat is just high enough while on the other hand, your evidence shows no heat from bowser. No because theres no heat at all, dont you see? they just fall apart, their not really damaged, if anything their mortor between the bricks is either really poor or weak.

Oh look, you just made a funny! So far i have yet to see fire damage, only pressure which Kain has vast resistance to so fire resistance is irrelevent. Again, adding seconds, a second or so thats all. Bowsers been the target of an incineration, it not just an explosion. Also, what explosions? iirc some of them do little damage, they just throw him a few meters, at best miles but often the energy disapates fast.

😆 what? how did you get from "no metal is not durable" to "show raziel clawring metal", wtf? I think your getting desperate just to say anything. Erm wat? depends what Bowser were talking about, if hes got a power up of size and speed from the Super mario galaxy then hes weak and no, not strong enough but if hes got inside stories luigi and mario in him (their nt in this thread) he is stronger but his pressure is more or less about twice Raziels, thats why he will die when he hits Kain unless you provie proof of him surviving his own high pressure by showing him hitting something that can tkae his blow like Kain can take Raziels.

😆 I like how a post or two ago, several times in a row you assume the metal is more dense/durable than skin, stone etc, I can see what the planetoid is made of and from its size, can guess its mass compared to other things. In older gains, he learns spells and powers, theres no double standard unless your implying Bowser has "learned" to create a mario and luigi inside of him, create his own stars to chomp like out of galaxy etc.

Because his claws are durable as proven on screen...it seems his flesh since being destroyed in the lake of the dead makes him soft. 😆 Again, spamming nonsense, if thats your idea of a debate then ill counter with "Bowser takes 4 hours to do any ability and is as soft as a kitten!", but no, I have the evidence and math behind it so I can say for fact that Bowsers durability is little and his pressure would kill him if he hit Kain, which is below actually getting deep into Kains body.

And as soon as he goes or ball or teleports himself, Kain can teleport faster ,especially with dimension port and avoid not only him but kill him as he arrives in the same second or two. As I said, speciifc to whatever Raziel did to him in SR 1 whle doing that spell, but Bowser wont be able to do much since Kains already turned his eyes to mush with TK and since hes mad with "inspire hate" he wont think much on what pwoers to use.

But thats not the same instance, this is him in ball form without being attacked or anything of the like. 😆 I think your trolling me my good old friend, because nobody can spam all these claims (ive mentioned them so I cant ignore them) but no, claiming hes survived an explosion is not equel to providing proof hes durable compared to Kains attacks, explosions affect his whole body so their power is divided over his whole body, you have to show me the energy values in numbers of these bombs, but I doubt you can.

When he lifted the iron ball he has the mario bros inside of him and your only video in galaxy of him changing sizes is when he chomps a star. In the other game, you shwoed me him requiring some sort of adrenaline...he has unique requirements in each game for his powers.

They calculated energy, then I quoted from the PMs with morridini pressure, although you can see the calculation for pressure here=,

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_relationship_between_the_newton_and_the_pascal

which is what you need once you gain the energy from the obelisk lift they gave.

As i said, Kain holds his face, theres pain but no damage and more importantly, the newer and FMV animated SR2 intro shows Kain taking it without harm;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zc_HM2vaTfU#t=2m4s

😆 what? we dont know he cant break stone, math says he can do it with ease, so what are you basing this on? some desperate attempt at insulting mockery? your not impressing me and your not going to convince me this way. The points on Bowsers shell are not smaller in surface area than Raziels claws, we calculate anything at that level as 1mm squared or more, only hes got a lot of them and further, hes not piercing walls he crushes them with his shell, so his weight breaks them.

Youve stopped debatin now right? now its all about trying to insult/mock me. Hell in the off-topic thread you cant argue/debate with me here so your hoping bias moderator ruling will make your argument solid for you, if your not going to debate then ill just leave this thread dead in the water, the math speaks for itself anything, youve clearly become so "tired" of having to post anything and I am tired to posting to "waffling" rather than arguments, you have 90% of your post as squabling irrelevencies and 10% spamming nonsense on the only thing of note in the thread which is bowsers durability which you struggle to gauge, you keep just claiming "stone walls zomg! so tough!"

Originally posted by Burning thought
Not if all it is, is energy or light left behind, theres no physical Kain there and as I said, 1-2 seconds? it would take Bowser a lot longer to get tehre AND use an attack. Why would he be helpess also your adding a lot of time to these attacks, if thats how it is, bowser takes 10 seconds to breathe fire! we can all add time. It has bloodlust, thats all there is to it since its a vampiric weapon, theres no "hunger" tbh outside of the metaphorical idea that it devours blood, it doesnt say "well thats nice, ime all full up now!". lol, it never had reaver spells until the emblems add it, emblems that also power kain, your making things up as usual.

Kain is still there, though, and there's no reason to assume he's intangible at that point. Where is Kain teleporting? If he's trying to get behind Bowser, he takes too long and gets killed. If he's trying to teleport away from Bowser, he takes too long and gets killed. The Blood Reaver uses the blood it consumes to power its spells, that's really all there is to it. The emblems just give it spells to use.

They just disapear.

No because magnus blows up statues but we also know it burns flesh, thats why its called incienrate, the heat is just high enough while on the other hand, your evidence shows no heat from bowser. No because theres no heat at all, dont you see? they just fall apart, their not really damaged, if anything their mortor between the bricks is either really poor or weak.

Yes, Bowser is destroying trees in less than a second, that's much better than normal fire. You're really reaching now if you think Bowser destroying bricks with fire isn't just like Magnus destroying statues. They're exploding, just like immolate, which will kill Kain in one shot.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3ljc0X9ytw#t=8m20s
There's your heat damage.

Oh look, you just made a funny! So far i have yet to see fire damage, only pressure which Kain has vast resistance to so fire resistance is irrelevent. Again, adding seconds, a second or so thats all. Bowsers been the target of an incineration, it not just an explosion. Also, what explosions? iirc some of them do little damage, they just throw him a few meters, at best miles but often the energy disapates fast.

You mean you're ignoring the burning? Oh, that's new. No, really, I don't how you miss the trees burning, or, heck, the coral catching fire underwater. And I love how your first thought after Bowser destroys something is that "it had to be weak."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UK3KG31ymj0#t=8m50s
Metal pipe explodes when Bowser breathes on it. I've already shown you burning trees and coral for fire damage. You want explosions? MORE than I've already shown you?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5k3658n5eLA#t=16m30s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaUl2HRcn2A#t=1m12s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0SizP0U-uQ#t=6m
Exactly the point, these explosions don't damage Bowser at all, how could you possibly think that immolate could even tickle Bowser? Trying it would get Kain killed.

😆 what? how did you get from "no metal is not durable" to "show raziel clawring metal", wtf? I think your getting desperate just to say anything. Erm wat? depends what Bowser were talking about, if hes got a power up of size and speed from the Super mario galaxy then hes weak and no, not strong enough but if hes got inside stories luigi and mario in him (their nt in this thread) he is stronger but his pressure is more or less about twice Raziels, thats why he will die when he hits Kain unless you provie proof of him surviving his own high pressure by showing him hitting something that can tkae his blow like Kain can take Raziels.

If metal isn't as durable as Kain, Raziel shouldn't have a problem cutting it, right? Raziel has no durability, as you have admitted, so he can't claw Kain without killing himself, right? That's why your argument is nonsense. Further, the burden of proof is you to prove the claim that Bowser would kill himself, not on me to disprove it. It's your claim, you need actual evidence for it. Since Bowser pressure is so much more than Raziel's, he'd kill Kain pretty easily.

😆 I like how a post or two ago, several times in a row you assume the metal is more dense/durable than skin, stone etc, I can see what the planetoid is made of and from its size, can guess its mass compared to other things. In older gains, he learns spells and powers, theres no double standard unless your implying Bowser has "learned" to create a mario and luigi inside of him, create his own stars to chomp like out of galaxy etc.

Metal typically is more durable than flesh or stone, that's a given, what are you talking about? Again, the feats I've posted so far have NOTHING to do with the Mario bros. or a star, so again, you're pretty much arguing against nothing. You're objecting to plot devices I haven't used, which I'm finding pretty funny.

Because his claws are durable as proven on screen...it seems his flesh since being destroyed in the lake of the dead makes him soft. 😆 Again, spamming nonsense, if thats your idea of a debate then ill counter with "Bowser takes 4 hours to do any ability and is as soft as a kitten!", but no, I have the evidence and math behind it so I can say for fact that Bowsers durability is little and his pressure would kill him if he hit Kain, which is below actually getting deep into Kains body.

No, Raziel taking wounds from humans mean his durability is nonexistent, and by your own argument that means he'd kill himself when he attacks Kain. Since he doesn't, your argument is proven false. Not that it was ever good anyway, since the burden of proof is still on you. You made a claim (Bowser would kill himself!) and then tried to make me prove you wrong. Not gonna work, get your own evidence, please. You keep saying you have evidence, though, which confuses me because you never posted it. Where is this fabled evidence? See, I have evidence that Bowser is more durable than Kain, so anything else you're posting here is false.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxJDa6QgBm0#t=5m50s
Spikes with Bowser's own force behind them, that's superior to Raziel.

And as soon as he goes or ball or teleports himself, Kain can teleport faster ,especially with dimension port and avoid not only him but kill him as he arrives in the same second or two. As I said, speciifc to whatever Raziel did to him in SR 1 whle doing that spell, but Bowser wont be able to do much since Kains already turned his eyes to mush with TK and since hes mad with "inspire hate" he wont think much on what pwoers to use.

Kain can't use the dimension reaver until he's collected some blood, though, and his normal teleport is too slow against Bowser. So Bowser goes ball form, Kain teleports behind him, and then gets spikeballed and killed in the 3 seconds it takes him. Where is your evidence for "something specific" in Soul Reaver? Raziel hit Kain, and hurt him. This means Bowser can kill Kain, especially since you haven't proven Kain's TK is enough to harm Bowser at all, nor have you proven inspire hate will even work.

But thats not the same instance, this is him in ball form without being attacked or anything of the like. 😆 I think your trolling me my good old friend, because nobody can spam all these claims (ive mentioned them so I cant ignore them) but no, claiming hes survived an explosion is not equel to providing proof hes durable compared to Kains attacks, explosions affect his whole body so their power is divided over his whole body, you have to show me the energy values in numbers of these bombs, but I doubt you can.

You think being attacked makes Bowser go blind? That's funny in how utterly wrong it is. Yes, tanking explosions does, in fact, prove that Bowser is durable. He's been tossed several miles, that's rather obviously quite a bit more force than Kain can produce, since Kain is unable to toss someone more than a few meters. Further, Bowser tanked the spikes from Dark Bowser, who copied his strength, meaning Bowser can tank pressures greater than Raziel can produce, which means he's more durable than Kain.

When he lifted the iron ball he has the mario bros inside of him and your only video in galaxy of him changing sizes is when he chomps a star. In the other game, you shwoed me him requiring some sort of adrenaline...he has unique requirements in each game for his powers.

Bowser is fully capable of supporting the iron ball without the Mario bros. inside him. They only helped him throw it back, which is not what I am using as the feat. I'm not even arguing that Bowser will change size in this match, so the star in galaxy is irrelevant. Are you trying to set up a red herring or something? Because so far you're arguing against things I'm not claiming.

They calculated energy, then I quoted from the PMs with morridini pressure, although you can see the calculation for pressure here=,

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_relationship_between_the_newton_and_the_pascal

which is what you need once you gain the energy from the obelisk lift they gave.
As i said, Kain holds his face, theres pain but no damage and more importantly, the newer and FMV animated SR2 intro shows Kain taking it without harm;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zc_HM2vaTfU#t=2m4s

That's nice. But Bowser is still stronger than Raziel, so he's still got more pressure. Do you not get that? Kain holding his face indicates that there was damage, though. We know Raziel can harm Kain.

😆 what? we dont know he cant break stone, math says he can do it with ease, so what are you basing this on? some desperate attempt at insulting mockery? your not impressing me and your not going to convince me this way. The points on Bowsers shell are not smaller in surface area than Raziels claws, we calculate anything at that level as 1mm squared or more, only hes got a lot of them and further, hes not piercing walls he crushes them with his shell, so his weight breaks them.

We know Raziel can't break stone because when he hits a stone block it doesn't break. Whereas whenever Bowser hits one, it shatters. Bowser's stone shattering force along with sharp points means he's still got more pressure than Raziel. Which means he will pierce and kill Kain.

Youve stopped debatin now right? now its all about trying to insult/mock me. Hell in the off-topic thread you cant argue/debate with me here so your hoping bias moderator ruling will make your argument solid for you, if your not going to debate then ill just leave this thread dead in the water, the math speaks for itself anything, youve clearly become so "tired" of having to post anything and I am tired to posting to "waffling" rather than arguments, you have 90% of your post as squabling irrelevencies and 10% spamming nonsense on the only thing of note in the thread which is bowsers durability which you struggle to gauge, you keep just claiming "stone walls zomg! so tough!"

Just to warn you, I will report you if you keep flaming me like this.

As I said, until you show respect in a debate and stop mocking/insulting me I will no longer respond to your posts. Theres too much spam and irrelevency here, the math speaks for itself, if Bloodrain wants to post something ill probably respond to that but youve not made a new argument or countered mine with a legitimate counter for pages.

Also thats not flamin, saying your waffling and speaking irrelevency is not an attack against a person although as I said, bias moderation will probably give you whatever you please, what they cant give you is the behaviour to respect an opponent in a debate which you have not shown to me.

If I am insulting you, I apologize. Please point out where you think I'm mocking you (examples or quotes would be helpful,) and I'll stop. I simply expect the same courtesy in return. For instance, I find it insulting that you are calling my arguments spam, or illegitimate, when I am still willing to discuss this with you. In addition, you're accusing me of trolling or waffling when it simply isn't true. Would you like me to quote these instances?

In any case, yes, the math does speak for itself.

"Morridini's figure of Raziel before scaling up to Pa/1m^2 = 9.06571984e11 Pa over 0.000002064512 m^2
My figure for Bowser before scaling up to Pa/1m^2 = 6.09262795e14 Pa over 0.000003 m^2
-Bowser has 672.051206 times the pressure but 1.45312791 times the area. 672.051206/ 1.45312791 = 462.48592 times the pressure.

Morridini's figure of Raziel after scaling up to Pa/1m^2 = 4.39121683e17 Pa
My figure for Bowser after scaling up to Pa/1m^2 = 2.03087598e20 Pa
-Bowser has 462.48592 times the pressure when at the same area".]

Specifically, the part where Bowser produces over 450 times the pressure Raziel can exert. That speaks for itself, in that it says Bowser's strikes would, in fact, hurt Kain quite badly. Of course, that was not my current argument. My current argument was concerning Bowser's fire breath, its similarity to Magnus' immolation ability, and how both would be capable of killing Kain. I was not using math, that's something you inserted into the debate.

Bloodrain if you check how you find pressure is dividing pascals (pressure) over area to find pressure, when your supposed to divide force in Newtons, that is all. Also, I did a more in depth calc on that, I like how you ignore any math that does not help you but as I said, this debate is dead until Bloodrain wants to continue.

^Oh, yeah, that quote is pretty spot on. Only with a surface area 462x what it is(eg a 10x14cm fist) will Bowser's end result be equal to Raziel.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

C'mon Rain, you will not double post...

Originally posted by Burning thought
-
-
-
-
-

-Same height, changes when using different items ie in SMG he was larger due to the Star power or whatever he used. Its only when he was the main character that he gains extra abilities. All Bowser have the same stats until they use Star Power/Rod/etc. Can you prove otherwise?

-Besides nothing saying it moves it cell by cell.. that power is a separate ability. He had bloodsuck long before he had telekinesis. So yeah, can his telekineses do more intricate things?

-But still one-shots him? Is there proof that his flame resistance grew? His water weakness improved so small amounts don't harm him but large amounts do. So far its the same for heat, with sunlight not harming him while fire can. Needs in-game proof.

-Their ideas>physics. If they don't have his claws making him arm implode then it doesnt. More importantly, needs evidence to prove that claim. Furthermore its your claim that his claws will break, burden of proof. Or drop the point

Originally posted by Burning thought
-

Originally posted by Burning thought
-
-
-
-

A 39.2k psi bullet is one example, a 21k psi .45 APC is another, etc etc. And as they can fire right through a person 200 is far from minimal, only the minimal value is whats needed.

Yeah, Raziel and Bowser's claw angels are both 60°, just measured. Claim there's some angle? Q: Two objects have the same tip area, one has an angle sharpness of 1° and the other 179°. Which will be more effective? For those that cant visualize the degrees; 1° is nearly an exact vertical line where 179° is nearly an exact horizontal line.. Go find something to prove that your formula for penetration is correct.

Still wanna know how you can think 6,000 tonner with claws will be less effective then a 300 tonner with claws.

Originally posted by Burning thought
-
-
-

Seems like you're the one not getting it. It doesnt matter what you think, Raziel admits it and we see it happening. Direct in-game quote & visual proof > your ideas. And no offense but if I was a guy who's never had a calc confirmed, I wouldn't be saying who is or isn't grasping things :/ And what you see as annoyed is actually me trying to find ways to make you grasp the points. Each time you fail to get an point, almost two times per post, I have to be more assertive to make you get it next time. But lol at this after saying you'll make a troll thread cos you got annoyed.

...Do I need to make a slideshow for this? Because you've completely missed the point. Your reason does nothing to prove that it was he was able to do this coincidentally at the exact moment.. He's in constant pain up until the very moment that the absorption happens. And I'm sure I made up Raziel's statement, imagination so strong it appeared in the game. The only logical explanation is that either he was healed from something that was said to heal him, or that he was able to recover in that 0.3 second what he couldn't in 12. So whats it gonna be?

Originally posted by Burning thought
-
-
-

Missing the point, again. How soft or squishy we are compared to Kain is exactly where that all this scaling comes from.

Yeah its called finding evidence to support claims. Ya'know, that thing we've been asking of you for a while now.

"Humans are frail, Kain is not" <-You see this here? That right there is -> "Kain has x*human durability" Please care to read my post next time. Scaling is the best method if we cant get exact figures from a characters biology.

Originally posted by Burning thought
1.
2.
3.

1. "Ok, go find some examples where things are listed as -X Pascals over Y area- and not simply -X Pascals-." try google.

2. I think you've poorly missed the point of the metaphor. Because saying you were on the boat to pull me onto it means you're on a set side of either yes or no. It's understandable if you didn't get this metaphor.

3. The unfortunate thing is that as you read through his post you intentionally avoided his first line of that very post:
"Right, so for simplicity we could start by assuming that he does in fact lift the entire one (compensate for the lever later)"
1.8 N is what was agreed upon for flipping the mass. Know what else is unfortunate? That on that link you gave, which is the only piece of evidence you've provided, it clearly says:
"1 pascal is 1 newton per square meter."
'Per square meter' thats as a whole measurement. A square meter = 1m^2. Thanks for finding my evidence though.

First things first, use the correct formulas. I'm assuming you used an online calculator which includes the base of the cone added to the surface area?
SA for a cone is pi*radius*side length = pi*1mm*2mm
= 6.28318531 mm^2 = 0.00000628318531 m^2 *3 claws
= 0.0000188495559 m^2

1,827,788,385.0148 N/ 0.0000188495559 m^2 = 96,967,185,577,820.4302 Pascals

With your idea on his SA he has;
9.69672855e13 Pa over 0.0000188495559 m^2
to Kain who has;
9.06571984e11 Pa over 0.000002064512 m^2

= 106.960382 times the pressure while being 9.1302719 times the SA.

106.960382/9.1302719 = 11.7149175 times the pressure if we choose to use this SA and not the original 0.000003 m^2.

Btw, next time try not to jump between pascals to bars and m^2 to in^2,

One more thing. If you are going to respond to this with your own calcs or question the calcs ask yourself this; Is Bowser, whose Newton strength is almost 700x Raziel's, going to have less force then Raziel just because he has one more claw? I know you favour logical things, so you should know that if your math says the opposite of this clear and obvious point then theres something wrong with it.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just an interesting tid-bit; Bowser is at 1.83e9 N, Raziel is at 1.87e6 N and a human is at 2e3 N. Personally found it interesting that the difference in strength between Bowser and Raziel is nearly the same as the difference between Raziel and us.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by Burning thought
-

Originally posted by Burning thought
-

Originally posted by BloodRain

- I wasnt trying to prove otherwise, I was proving that they have different stats when they use these plot devices, which seems to be in the game every time you show me a feat, for example the iron ball, mario and luigi were present.

-Prove its a seperate ability, any movement of kinetic/physical objects with your mind is TK, its the defintion of it unless your claiming he does it some other when then I will wait for your evidence. Also, whats intricate about splatting someones eyes out or their brain? nothing....he can choke people with pressures of force round their neck, move objects around both large and small etc.

-His pressure resistance grew though clearly, I dont know where this whole idea of flame resitsance has come from, thermal energy still has to make molecules move, Kains molecules are millions times more dense/strong than they were before.

-His claws break until hes struck a durable surface, theres no evidence to suggest they can take such pressures. I dont have to prove they dont have the durability, thats a negative, you have to prove they do.

😆 your kidding, 10x surface area of Bowsers claw? i hope your just talking about the tip of Bowsers claw, which grows dramatically in SA as you move down. Also again, why are you talking about bullets? their unique to how they damage humans, it has no connection to Bowser. Also Bowser cannot produce continious force, theres such a thing as drag and acceleration, my previous math has proven he has not got the pressure to pierce all 2mm of Kains skin, meaning long before then, probably as soon as he hits Kain, Kains going to absorb a lot of Kain energy and the deceleration will halt most of Bowsers pressure. 6e18 bullet? I wont harm Kain, but it will pierce through him yes....but thats because a bullet is tiny, moves quickly etc.

If their the same angle then what are you talking about? The surface area/pressure is still the same. Also your the one trying to claim it penetrates, so far youve proven a bullet with the same energy can penetrate (ill give you that one, although ive not looked into it). You ignore that bowsers energy will decrease as it hits Kain, his force and pressure will decrease rapidly as well not only because of his speed decreasing but because his surface area of claw entering Kain will increase. The math I did previously proves this.

Erm no, I never said less effective than 300 2 claws, because 300 2 claws does nothing to Kain, while 6k and 3/4 claws get fatter, much fatter so given the claim that he may be able to pierce less than 1mm into Kain, I am saying Bowsers got a slight success rate compared to Raziels zero at piercing Kain, but its not enough for you claim he can do any real damage.

No later showings disprove SR2 intro.

😆 Raziel does not admit anything, go and wathc the video again. These are not "my ideas", their the games canon, Kain does not get healed until he absorbs the wraith blade, ill wait until you understand the story until I post to your trolling here. Also, I want to see the video where Raziel states he is healing Kain after their fight...

I choose the part where a guy whos not being hit or attacked stands firm as opposed to a few seconds earlier being lunged on, or struck for pain....I like how your argueing with a games canon youve proven you dont understand in the first place.

Your sclaing up from humans vs SA of a bullet even when a bullet is completly unique to what were dicussing with bowser anyway...

1. Were talking about turning force into pressure, not dividing pressure over area.....what are you talking aobut here?

2. No, I just sit in the boat, trying to get you from swimming to the dinosaurs and pool cues.

3.

The reason why this math is irrelevent as opposed to mine is because you seem to be calculated 1mm? were talking about a cone of 2mm in height and at least quarter inch wide give or take. You seem to be calculating the very tips surface area as a cone? Ill wait until you reply to this before making any counter calculation although I admit, I did use a calculation that added the base to the surfae area and forgot to take it out last time.

I never said Bowser has less force than Raziels 2 claws which do nothing to kain, thought i would bold that, I am saying 2mm of his claws area show far less pressure to damage Kain.

A small part of the body moved when Dante moves out from under it as the hand drops to the ground, thats it, the other arm proves that the Saviour freezes though, and that its arms are not subject to enough gravity to pull it down. I would like to see these feats, if their concerning saviour and your poor interpretations then ignore those ones and show me others. DB is not that tough though, he cant pull a sharp sword from his own body...Show me him destroying rock with bullets. Rebellions shown no power beyond slicing like any normal sword, and all it does is get stuck in Dante and he cant even pull it out. Time and time again you claimed before he was just toying with Nero, until he gets impaled hes fine, in which case he struggles, unless you could prove it drained his strength away this is a terrible showing and proves hes fairly weak. 😆 "weapons and abilities that trump", hot air love, hot air, ive played both series, youve not so your speaking from ignorance. You keep bringing up "exausted", he wasnt exausted....and if he gets tired from a short fight, hes ruined against kain who he can barely hurt. No feats are around mach 10...what fanon is this in? We gone back to discussing "resistances" like this is pokemon or something? blade/blunt are both from pressure, his pressure resistance is proven from the sword blow to be far lower than most, and it seems his stmina is low as well if a weak Nero can wear him down or Vergil hardly hitting him can....has Dante got Asthma or something?

Originally posted by Burning thought
-
-
-
-

-Is there a part in the other games where base Bowser was shown to be less then the Iron Ball feat? And the bros didn't help until after the collision, so it doesn't matter what they did.

-Have you seen Avatar: The last Airbender? Are they all using telekinetic powers to move fire, water and blood? Its neither TK nor moving each individual cell. That and Kain didn't get TK naturally unlike the blood power. By the way, is choking people and moving objects your idea of intricate?

-"Needs in-game proof" His water resistance only grew to tanking raindrops and puddles. If our molecules were millions of times stronger then normal we whould be able to tank being in a pool of acid, Kain should be able to take being dipped in water yet he cant. So again, needs in-game proof.

-Burden of proof fallacy. You brought up the idea when nothing from the game saying why, so good luck finding that evidence.

Originally posted by Burning thought
-
-
-

Bullet SA = 0.0001m^2, Bowser SA's = 0.000003m^1. 33.333x SA. Yeah, they effect a body with far less effort than Bowser would to scale. Anything alive can produce continual force. So with a larger SA, being blunt and producing force 3% that of Bowser's claws would pierce Kain but Bowser wont...

If you want to claim that Bowser's claws will only get a certain distance in then the angle matters. False. My claim: Bowser can pierce Kain because he attacks with PA far above what Kain's ever taken. Your defense: Bowser wont get through the skin because of 'this' calculation. That calc is wrong without the angle effecting it. Yes it will decrease, but far past 'the first layer of skin'. And I believe I asked you to show me real evidence that your calculation formula is correct.

Originally posted by Burning thought
-
-
-

'sides getting his heart broken by Raziel. And the earlier scene is still official. Two for is more then enough.

Show me the part in the game where he specifically says he gets healed only after the event and not during. Sadly I doubt you get whats happening enough, evident by calling troll, even if there was no troll moments, to avoid admitting to in-game evidence. What was it you called others when they did what youre doing here? Fannon, right?

If only you realized that that made no sense. You may want to actually watch that scene. Because if you knew what we were talking about youd know that there was no lunge that could have hurt Kain. See this here? This would be Kain catching Raziel's arm and at no time knocking into him. The funny thing is that you still haven't given anything against the fact that even with this lunge apparently stopping Kain from recovering or whatever your point was, it still does nothing to counter the fact that Kain was still in pain up until the 0.3 seconds before the absorbing starts and if you can't accept that he was being healed then you'll have to find an explanation of how he was able to recover in that split second. With proof of course.... also have you given any evidence or proof yet for any of your claims?

Originally posted by Burning thought
-

Unique in that has a poorer penetrative design and far less force difference the his claws. Besides Ive already shown you VRaptors claws, which have a similar increase, can make its 6cm claw get 4cm into flesh when it only has 5x skins limit.

Originally posted by Burning thought
1.
2.
3.

1. N/SA=PA
PA*(1m^2/SA)= PA per square meter.

^That.

2. ...I'm honestly not sure if you're joking here or you actually don't get that metaphor 😐

3. Its as if you didn't read my post. That calc for the SA of a cone is for a cone 2mm in height. Pi*radius*side length. The side length being 2mm with the radius being half the diameter, diameter at the 2mm height of the cone given the angle is 2mm wide so the radius is 1mm.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'd like to expand on that tid-bit. Human's 8e3 strength x 234 = Raziel's 1.87e6 strength x 978 = Bowser's 1.83e9 strength. The reason of the expansion is this; By your theory, Bowser cannot pierce past a 1 mm of Kain because he can take pressure from Raziel, and its like this even if Bowser's almost 1,000 times Raziel's strength. Now, from this exact method of thinking it would mean that if that human strength with a knife tried and failed to penetrate an object/person then Kain and Raziel, who are only 234 times human strength, would fail to penetrate 0.25mm.

So, for the same reason Bowser can barely penetrate Kain, Kain and Raziel will do even less than that to... a knife proof vest?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by Burning thought
-

Originally posted by BloodRain

- How do I know? I dont know what they were doing during that time and yes, earlier in the thread Bowser, a giant one far larger than this and amped by the star he chomps cant damage a small planetoid.

-No, I dont think Kain has seen it either although if your claiming he has some sort of "blood bending" powers weve never heard off then I would like to see your evidence, Tk covers the role just as well and its a power we know he already has. Just as intricate as blasting ones eyes out.

-We dont know the severity of water on kains body, only that its "like" acid, since acids are unique and affect different things on different levels you trying to use water to counter that is useless and further, Raziel has shown he can spend a damn long time in water.

-Your right when you say "nothing from the game" as Bowser has few to no feats of striking objects canonically in his games, at best even Scenario, that little ole fan of Bowsers best proof is gameplay of him apprently hitting a robot in turn base.

At Bowsers very tip of the claw, not 2mm in which is what were calculating below, as i said before if you want to argue that Bowser can make 1mm^2 scratches in Kain then be my guest, its probably the best he can do.

Ive shown you "real" evidence unless your claiming Surface area calculations are not real? 🙄 my dear Bloodrain your losing the aim here, falling short one could say considering your claim of more "PA" than Kain has ever taken, Bowsers pressure as I have proven is little per surface area hes affecting, hundreds of times little.

2 for what? 1 for kain being "annoyed" by Raziels attack with no damage and a second, weakened by the wraith blade, Bowser has no wraith blade.

I still dont see video evidence of what your claiming here so I will let you troll by yourself young sir. You dont know the Lok series and are making strange conclusions. Kain cant be healed by Raziels soul being drawn into the reaver....never happened....all that happened was Kain stopped showing pain after he was not getting pushed against or under any physical strain.

I dont know where yout getting 5x skins limit, Veloceraptors are incredibly strong, I find it hard to belive their PSI on their claws is less than 100

1. If your trying to calculate durability, like Kains resistance then Pascals per SA multiplied by the surface is fine.

2. 😆

3. And what about height? Side length at an angle is not the only calculation, you need height of the cone which is 2mm, the side length is typically more or less than the height.

Bowser does not create 1000 times the pressure though and Raziel cannot even damage Kain. Also looking into previous calculations, I think the way you have calculated deceleration of the falling iron ball to give Bowser newtons you claim is wrong, my sources are not finished yet but it seems youve added gravity to an object already under gravity which is included in its falling speed.

no the reason Bowser cant penetrate Kain is that, unlike a lot of knives, Raziels claw and certainly Kians sword, Bowsers cone claw gets drastically larger the further up you go, meaning more SA and less pressure. And a knife vest? what are you smoking? because I want some, a knife vest cant take 3x the earths pressure.....if you can find one, or better yet a few I could do with some in case of the coming 2012 apocalypse!

I think ill just finish with this quote from you which seems relevent somehow;

Originally posted by BloodRain
:I Such a cute lil fella...

And ill agree with the "save it for math in another thread" where your ignorance on DMC AND LoK can be willed out 😄

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YouAqdzj9eI#t=4m6s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAETeT-gbXs#t=55s

- How do I know? I dont know what they were doing during that time and yes, earlier in the thread Bowser, a giant one far larger than this and amped by the star he chomps cant damage a small planetoid.

They were doing nothing until after Bowser caught the ball. After he caught it, they amped him him in order to throw it back, but the catch and holding was all Bowser.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjb9Kxb1TFI#t=55s

As seen here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fYGYljLmV4#t=1m33s
Further, you can see the large Bowser is, in fact, damaging the planetoid by putting some huge holes in it. The damage just disappears in order to make the fight winnable. "Gameplay mechanics!" in other words.

-No, I dont think Kain has seen it either although if your claiming he has some sort of "blood bending" powers weve never heard off then I would like to see your evidence, Tk covers the role just as well and its a power we know he already has. Just as intricate as blasting ones eyes out.

In Blood Omen, Kain does not have telekinesis, yet he can still drink blood from a distance. When he gains telekinesis, his feeding doesn't change, and he doesn't show that much delicate technique with it. You'd need to prove that Kain can apply his powerful TK to his more precise blood drinking mechanism. As it stands they are used very differently, and Kain has never done anything close to what you're suggesting.

-We dont know the severity of water on kains body, only that its "like" acid, since acids are unique and affect different things on different levels you trying to use water to counter that is useless and further, Raziel has shown he can spend a damn long time in water.

Open your Defiance manual, page 13.

WATER VULNERABILITY
For vampires, immersion in water is
deadly. Kain must be cautious around
water obstacles. If he falls in, his health
will be immediately depleted, and he
will be reset to his last checkpoint.

If you're even thinking about pulling the game mechanics card, no. "For vampires, immersion in water is deadly. Kain must be cautious arounnd water obstacles," is not a mechanic, regardless of what the next sentence contains. Health, yes, checkpoints, yes, water being deadly...no.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtqZIi8nbOY#t=6m27s

"Though it is life giving to humans, water is deadly to vampires. It's touch burns our skin; immersion in water can kill us."

Just in case the manual isn't enough to convince you that water kills vampires.

-Your right when you say "nothing from the game" as Bowser has few to no feats of striking objects canonically in his games, at best even Scenario, that little ole fan of Bowsers best proof is gameplay of him apprently hitting a robot in turn base.

The claim (yours) is that Bowser's claws will break. It's then up to you to prove this. "Nothing from the game" indicates that they would break, yes.