Final Destination [Maximum] Vol.9 Bowser X Kain

Originally posted by Burning thought
You can logically take into account how poison works and how Kain not having a heart anymore would reduce poisons effect if not make it worthless. Yes I made "pure magic" up, the only fact from the devs is his "nature as the science of balance allows him to survive", but theres no physical force at work keeping his body up and running, the heart of darknes was what revived him as a vampire and kept him up and running, without it physically he should be dead but Kain seems to be able to ignore many rules. I dont know about that, I dont know if he still needs blood or not, without a heart logic suggests no, considering the heart is the foundation of the vampires physical life I cant see how he would need any physical needs like blood anymore. Wheres this blood going to go? through his mouth and then just sit uselessly in the hole in his chest or something...

There is no hole in his chest. Raziel healed him. In which case why do you believe he has no heart?

How is breathing a flame comparable to a pisonic heat and pressure detonation that kain was under the effects of at his weakest? The pressure is equel to sending small blocks a few meters away, thats next to nothing compared to what Kains taken. Not sure if thats a feat for heat, but ime sure youll find some evidence on this, if it was that hot the coral would not burn for a second or two.

Since that fire breath has shown just as much, if not more, destruction, than the psionic heat wave. It's pretty the exact same thing as Magnus', and Kain's resistance to it has not been shown to have improved. Bowser destroyed at least 2 meters of brick and around that amount of metal piping, that's more than what Magnus did to Kain, which incidentally killed Kain.

They fear them but thats too vague to say they cant regen from it, most occasions of canon Raziel uses fire the target creatures are nothing on kains level and burn to death through conflragration, also in SR1 its proven either the fire itself or the air in the atmosphere from Kains machines has made it more flammable since large blocks of wood burns away in seconds as well. Zephon and Dumah are fairly weak compared to kain though.

Bowser burns live trees in seconds, that's better than large blocks of dead wood. Also, that wasn't proven, you just made a conclusion based on things burning quickly. It doesn't matter how weak Zephon and Dumah were, it backs up the statement that all vampires are weak to fire, and Kain has no resistance to it.

Do we know this Dark bowser (your name or the games?) has anywhere near the strength?

It's the game name. Dark Bowser is the form that an ancient evil monster called the Dark Star took after it absorbed Bowser's DNA. As seen here:
Link 1 (Dark Star absorbs Bowser's strength.)
Link 2 (Dark Star absorbs Bowser's fire.)
Link 3 (Dark Star absorbs Bowser's shell and body slam.)
Link 4 (Dark Bowser outright states it has copied all of Bowser.)

Also strength here is irrelevent since the energy he used to do the attack launched him into the air, the force on his return was his mass and gravity spreading force over several spikes.

Incorrect.
Link 5 (Bowser can increase his weight while airborne, see Link 3.) Further, Link 6 shows that Dark Bowser also has Bowser's ability to fly, and can impart even more force in any direction. Bowser can, again, break quite a bit of stone with these moves, even on the ground, and Dark Bowser copied them.

I dont see anyone on games vs, let alone Kain being hit by Bowsers fire, their too slow or predictable and more importantly, we can still argue old kain was harmed by Magnus, not the new one who can take vast pressures.

Let's just determine what will happen if Kain is hit, first. Kain still has no resistance to fire, and a known vulnerability due to his vampire nature. I'm pretty sure we can conclude he'd burn to death based on that.

Originally posted by The Scenario
There is no hole in his chest. Raziel healed him. In which case why do you believe he has no heart?

Since that fire breath has shown just as much, if not more, destruction, than the psionic heat wave. It's pretty the exact same thing as Magnus', and Kain's resistance to it has not been shown to have improved. Bowser destroyed at least 2 meters of brick and around that amount of metal piping, that's more than what Magnus did to Kain, which incidentally killed Kain.

Bowser burns live trees in seconds, that's better than large blocks of dead wood. Also, that wasn't proven, you just made a conclusion based on things burning quickly. It doesn't matter how weak Zephon and Dumah were, it backs up the statement that all vampires are weak to fire, and Kain has no resistance to it.

It's the game name. Dark Bowser is the form that an ancient evil monster called the Dark Star took after it absorbed Bowser's DNA. As seen here:
Link 1 (Dark Star absorbs Bowser's strength.)
Link 2 (Dark Star absorbs Bowser's fire.)
Link 3 (Dark Star absorbs Bowser's shell and body slam.)
Link 4 (Dark Bowser outright states it has copied all of Bowser.)

Incorrect.
Link 5 (Bowser can increase his weight while airborne, see Link 3.) Further, Link 6 shows that Dark Bowser also has Bowser's ability to fly, and can impart even more force in any direction. Bowser can, again, break quite a bit of stone with these moves, even on the ground, and Dark Bowser copied them.

Let's just determine what will happen if Kain is hit, first. Kain still has no resistance to fire, and a known vulnerability due to his vampire nature. I'm pretty sure we can conclude he'd burn to death based on that.

Hes still a vampire unless your claiming Kain is now human.. and the only form of animation that Kain had as a vampire was Janos' heart which is now in janos.

Kain who was weak at the time, pressure has increased, Bowser does not create psionic heat on ones body.

Arguable, those trees are not as large as the blocks of wood which were thick. lol yes it does, because their less reisstant him on massive scale, his particles take pressures equel to earth pressure which keeps iron, a far less resistant/durable substance than Kain solid in nigh star surface temps.

BUt I assume it gets beaten by Bowser ,so clearly not that good of a copy if the original is superior?

It cant be correct unless you prove he can retain all the energy of his body and strike force, if I jumped in the air or anyone did on top of you, you would be feeling my bodyweight+gravity but not be too badly harmed while my strike may be far more powerful, this is more true when Bowsers full body strength is shown. This proves the body strength or energy of Bowser or Dark Bowser in this case is only enough to launch his bodyweight a few meters in the air. Breaking stone is not the same as breaking Kain.

Bowsers fire is mostly pressure based, knocking over bricks, not melting them for instance ,e.g. hes fire is not enough to dinstegrate kelp underground or coral or melt brick. Not likely, assuming he just stood there and this fire actually set him alight his regen which is night instant should keep up with fire burns assuming they could melt down his super durable skin and if the worst comes to the worst, he just mists in and out and its gone. He could arguably transform into anything to avoid being burnt.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Hes still a vampire unless your claiming Kain is now human.. and the only form of animation that Kain had as a vampire was Janos' heart which is now in janos.

Yes, he's still a vampire. And vampires still need...blood. And tainted blood still screws them over.

Kain who was weak at the time, pressure has increased, Bowser does not create psionic heat on ones body.

What difference does psionic heat make? It's the same thing, and Bowser's is more destructive. Kain's resistance to cuts has no bearing on his vulnerability to fire.

Arguable, those trees are not as large as the blocks of wood which were thick. lol yes it does, because their less reisstant him on massive scale, his particles take pressures equel to earth pressure which keeps iron, a far less resistant/durable substance than Kain solid in nigh star surface temps.

Goona need to see those blocks of wood first, if you can. How does Kain resisting cuts have any relation to pressure keeping molten iron solid? It doesn't, really. That's just the pressure keeping material from expanding, so unless you're arguing that Kain's body is exerting the same amount of pressure to...keep him from...catching on fire...? What the heck are you talking about again? I cannot make sense of it, sorry. Iron has absolutely no bearing on Kain's vampiric vulnerability to fire.

BUt I assume it gets beaten by Bowser ,so clearly not that good of a copy if the original is superior?

Why does one have to be superior? Maybe the Dark Star just isn't as skilled at fighting as Bowser is; the fight was more complicated than that, anyway. All I'm trying to prove is that Bowser can take hits from himself (particularly on his shell.) There are multiple statements that Dark Bowser has all of Bowser's physical abilities, and there are several instances of Bowser and Dark Bowser canceling each other out. Examples being: The flying shell fight, if both attack at the same time, the shells collide and sends sparks everywhere, but neither is hurt. If both of them punch at the same time, the fists collide, there is a shockwave, and neither is hurt. If Dark Bowser tries a shell slam, Bowser can guard with his own shell, they collide, neither is hurt. Bowser and Dark Bowser are essentially equal in physical stats, but Bowser fights better and Dark Bowser has weird Dark Star magic powers.

It cant be correct unless you prove he can retain all the energy of his body and strike force, if I jumped in the air or anyone did on top of you, you would be feeling my bodyweight+gravity but not be too badly harmed while my strike may be far more powerful, this is more true when Bowsers full body strength is shown. This proves the body strength or energy of Bowser or Dark Bowser in this case is only enough to launch his bodyweight a few meters in the air. Breaking stone is not the same as breaking Kain.

Except that Bowser (and Dark Bowser by extension) is capable of doubling his weight in mid air, in addition to being able to impart even more force through the ability to fly. So it's more like body weightx2+gravity+flight force. Sometimes Dark Bowser will do something like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ST56ZwIvrJs#t=6m2s
More weight, and even higher than normal. Bowser can even break stone on the ground, so bringing the multipliers just increases it even more. Plus, you know, the spikes that add to pressure.

Bowsers fire is mostly pressure based, knocking over bricks, not melting them for instance ,e.g. hes fire is not enough to dinstegrate kelp underground or coral or melt brick. Not likely, assuming he just stood there and this fire actually set him alight his regen which is night instant should keep up with fire burns assuming they could melt down his super durable skin and if the worst comes to the worst, he just mists in and out and its gone. He could arguably transform into anything to avoid being burnt.

Not really, things just explode when he breathes on them. Pretty much exactly like Magnus. Why would it need to disintegrate it? Burning works just as well, and vampire regeneration doesn't cover fire, as Raziel demonstrates multiple times throughout Soul Reaver. I still think you're overestimating mist.

Originally posted by Burning thought
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Originally posted by Burning thought
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Fine, show me the scene or text that says the Blade has the power to "weaken Kain's body from a strike". Blunt force trauma =/= Anything to do with this.

Didn't seem to work. Now answer; "Explain how the wound vanished" if not from being healed.

Already posted the link to V.Raptors on flesh and you know this, proves the increasing body and penetrative distance. Already given the reasons of how a small, weak animals psi < a large, strong one, proves the psi is not far above human skin limit.

Originally posted by Burning thought
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Insulting and delusional then.

Ah, calling out irony is an attempt to be funny. Take your past self's advice.

Instead of sharing your view why not go and prove it with an official/semi-official source.

Originally posted by Burning thought
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In the calc here you're using 1 second as the time it takes to come to a complete halt. I dont know whether you assumed 1 second [=11m/s] or got it from the video but its clearly not that. The best I can see from Youtube is that it takes at most 0.1 seconds [=110m/s] or my figure from how long 11m/s takes to cover the 0.4m stopping distance, 0.0363636364s [=302.5m/s]

1 second = 5852248.76*11 = 64374736.4 N
= 5.987e7 N = 34.61x Raziel

0.1 seconds = 5852248.76*110 = 643747364 N
= 5.987e8 N = 346.1x Raziel

0.036.. seconds = 5852248.76*302.5 = 1770305249.9 N
= 1.77e9 N = 951.61x Raziel

*^Compared to the previous formula that included Moridini's +gravity which made it 3% higher.

So even without adding gravity he's still nearly a thousand times Raziel's Newtons. The only real issue between us is the time. Its clearly not 1 second while it does take 0.036.. seconds for 11m/s to travel 40cm.

Originally posted by Burning thought
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Those videos do not prove or give evidence for the what I was asking of you. I asked you to prove that the cone/penetrative formula that you showed is correct using sources and that the Blade can weaken Kain using statements. All you did was show the video that we've all seen a dozen times which doesnt provide anything that we didnt already know.
Again, in your eyes this stuff means Im mocking you? Present actions dont change past ones.

No matter how you look at it; 951.61x N difference is massive, 1.5x [3 tips/2 tips] or 9.4x [3 cones/2 tips] SA difference is minute.

Pot meets kettle. Figured you'd get back to him.

Originally posted by BloodRain
[Covered by Scene]
My point is basically: -Dont care about different forms. -No proof of TK beforehand. -No evidence.

Fine, show me the scene or text that says the Blade has the power to "weaken Kain's body from a strike". Blunt force trauma =/= Anything to do with this.

Didn't seem to work. Now answer; "Explain how the wound vanished" if not from being healed.

Already posted the link to V.Raptors on flesh and you know this, proves the increasing body and penetrative distance. Already given the reasons of how a small, weak animals psi < a large, strong one, proves the psi is not far above human skin limit.

Insulting and delusional then.

Ah, calling out irony is an attempt to be funny. Take your past self's advice.

Instead of sharing your view why not go and prove it with an official/semi-official source.

You're using the formula '(v - v0) / t' to get the speed, the exact formula I used with one key difference: Time.

In the calc here you're using 1 second as the time it takes to come to a complete halt. I dont know whether you assumed 1 second [=11m/s] or got it from the video but its clearly not that. The best I can see from Youtube is that it takes at most 0.1 seconds [=110m/s] or my figure from how long 11m/s takes to cover the 0.4m stopping distance, 0.0363636364s [=302.5m/s]

1 second = 5852248.76*[b]11 = 64374736.4 N
= 5.987e7 N = 34.61x Raziel

0.1 seconds = 5852248.76*110 = 643747364 N
= 5.987e8 N = 346.1x Raziel

0.036.. seconds = 5852248.76*302.5 = 1770305249.9 N
= 1.77e9 N = 951.61x Raziel

*^Compared to the previous formula that included Moridini's +gravity which made it 3% higher.

So even without adding gravity he's still nearly a thousand times Raziel's Newtons. The only real issue between us is the time. Its clearly not 1 second while it does take 0.036.. seconds for 11m/s to travel 40cm.

Those videos do not prove or give evidence for the what I was asking of you. I asked you to prove that the cone/penetrative formula that you showed is correct using sources and that the Blade can weaken Kain using statements. All you did was show the video that we've all seen a dozen times which doesnt provide anything that we didnt already know.
Again, in your eyes this stuff means Im mocking you? Present actions dont change past ones.

No matter how you look at it; 951.61x N difference is massive, 1.5x [3 tips/2 tips] or 9.4x [3 cones/2 tips] SA difference is minute.

Pot meets kettle. Figured you'd get back to him. [/B]

Not sure what this means.

Your argument is now Kain is not weakened by strikes on his body or something? whos side are you argueing from now because you realise I am the one argueing for Kain?

We dont see any wound, we see blood.

I would like to see that again and it proves a raptor can pierce weak creature.

Some trolling, boring...next

Get youtube downloader then use a flashplayer to play it frame by frame, it takes just under a second, perhaps 0.6 to decelerate. Calculating how long it takes 11 m/s object to cover 0.4 is useless since its not moving at 11 m/s is it if its slowing down silly.

As for your math, why are you multiplying by 11, 110 etc? its 11 divided by 9,8, gravity. Again, you seem to be using gravity as an addition to an already downward movement when its already included in the calc.

Also you have yet to even begin absorbtion based on expended pressure on Bowsers hands, which would be relevent with a falling object since it hitting something slows it down anyway. Then add on Bowser struggles and strains badly, its not strength he could pull out on the fly.

You dont understand SA so you saying its minute means little, the claw builds up so even at the smaller level hes not getting far into Kain, as I said, hes probably going to do the equivalent to a cat scratch. Assuming Kain feels it, Bowser may get a annoyed reaction and a flinch, nothing more.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Not sure what this means.

Basically, you never proved that Kain can pop brains or eyes with the same ability he uses to feed on blood. What with it and TK being demonstrably separate abilities.

That sniping bastard covered this too.

Weakened/reduced his durability, whatever you want to call it. If its the Blades preceding effect that made it so Raziel could tear through him with his claws, then there must be a statement to suggest some effect.

Besides being an obvious wound and not just a smeer of blood, it also magically vanishes when he sucks up Raziel. Did the editiors get lazy at that right moment or did Raziel wip the blood off his chest?

Try a page or two back. It proves that flesh can be pierced deep by a claw only using 5 times its limit, meaning 5 times Raziel's Pa and we got the same case. Unless Kain's biology is radically different in a way that a different number is needed.. but that would need evidence of Kain's inner body.

Not gonna throw me the ball? Aw shucks.

Try that with a lagtastic laptop. But I can tell that over half a second is far too long for that event, and can so far be positive, through unconventional methods, that its less then 1/6 of a second. As its coming to a complted stop in such a short distance the number I got would be fairly close.

F=ma. Although you could use the formula of acceleration due to gravity on the mass: (11/9.81)*6000=6727.82875 ton force = 65,977,461.713121 Newtons. 1.1x higher than a F=ma calc with the same weight.

All of that requires and are based on the personal biological features, nothing we can get our hands on.

Youre right, how could I ever think that 1 and 9 were small numbers compared to 950. 950x newton difference must actually be pretty equal to a 1-9 times area difference factor.. gah, now I see the light. But wait, if we're calling 1-9 large, what do we call 950? Hmm.
Can keep your cat scratching fantasies to yourself until you provide actual evidence.

Wonder how many times youve been asked and have failed to supply evidence on important points.

Originally posted by BloodRain
That sniping bastard covered this too.

Weakened/reduced his durability, whatever you want to call it. If its the Blades preceding effect that made it so Raziel could tear through him with his claws, then there must be a statement to suggest some effect.

Besides being an obvious wound and not just a smeer of blood, it also magically vanishes when he sucks up Raziel. Did the editiors get lazy at that right moment or did Raziel wip the blood off his chest?

Try a page or two back. It proves that flesh can be pierced deep by a claw only using 5 times its limit, meaning 5 times Raziel's Pa and we got the same case. Unless Kain's biology is radically different in a way that a different number is needed.. but that would need evidence of Kain's inner body.

Not gonna throw me the ball? Aw shucks.

Try that with a lagtastic laptop. But I can tell that over half a second is far too long for that event, and can so far be positive, through unconventional methods, that its less then 1/6 of a second. As its coming to a complted stop in such a short distance the number I got would be fairly close.

F=ma. Although you could use the formula of acceleration due to gravity on the mass: (11/9.81)*6000=6727.82875 ton force = 65,977,461.713121 Newtons. 1.1x higher than a F=ma calc with the same weight.

All of that requires and are based on the personal biological features, nothing we can get our hands on.

Youre right, how could I ever think that 1 and 9 were small numbers compared to 950. 950x newton difference must actually be pretty equal to a 1-9 times area difference factor.. gah, now I see the light. But wait, if we're calling 1-9 large, what do we call 950? Hmm.
Can keep your cat scratching fantasies to yourself until you provide actual evidence.

Wonder how many times youve been asked and have failed to supply evidence on important points.

Any strike on a surface typically has an affect on its durability, both inside or out.

Back to thinking Kain sucks up Raziel now? Yeh, ignorance on the source but more importantly irrelevent, you make so many red herrings.

Your just going to assume your correct without even looking into my method or using the service that makes your blind assumption meaningless? lol, thought you would.

about 65/66 million Newtons makes more sense than your billion figuires.

So you admit you cant prove what your trying to claim? your using vastly incomplete data, refusing to use a more accurate way of finding how long it took to decelerate then using the highest figuires you can to prove that the very tip of Bowsers claw "may" be able to make a tiny kitten scratch in Kain, good job professor.... now your definatly trolling me. Its funny how one min I feel trolled by Scene and your making more interesting posts, and now the reverse.

But its not 950x newton difference. At only 66 million newtons, Bowser in the area of his 3 claws, 2mm in Kains skin have decelerated and are lucky to do much damage at all, the math for the areas is on the previous pages and proves Bowsers going to have trouble doing this, then your ignoring the fact he will not stay at max speed all the way through, especially when skin is elastic.

Here is Bowsers force if he had 120 million (not 66 million) newtons of force behind him and could use this to its full extent, this uses your calc on the area of 3 claw tips;

Cone area on 3 claws= 0.0000565486677 m^2

120 mil / 0.0000565486677

--If Bowser has 120 million newtons of force--

21220659.1031675 bar Bowser strike

253840155.401760788 bar Kains defence, Kain has 11.9 or 12x the pressure than Bowsers attack in this area.

All semantics, because were looking at vast surface areas, vastly higher density/durable materials (kains bones, muslce and all attached tendons combined) if Bowser wanted to do any real damage. Then forgetting one teleport and Kain is away and healing up good and dandy if Bowser does more than a kitten scratch or Kains counter kills him instantly.

Never at all yet, Ive proven it every step of the way, the math already speaks to self. more interestingly, I wonder how many countless ocasions there have been where you ignore evidence and then claim red herrings over the top of the relevent points.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Yes, he's still a vampire. And vampires still need...blood. And tainted blood still screws them over.

What difference does psionic heat make? It's the same thing, and Bowser's is more destructive. Kain's resistance to cuts has no bearing on his vulnerability to fire.

Goona need to see those blocks of wood first, if you can. How does Kain resisting cuts have any relation to pressure keeping molten iron solid? It doesn't, really. That's just the pressure keeping material from expanding, so unless you're arguing that Kain's body is exerting the same amount of pressure to...keep him from...catching on fire...? What the heck are you talking about again? I cannot make sense of it, sorry. Iron has absolutely no bearing on Kain's vampiric vulnerability to fire.

Why does one have to be superior? Maybe the Dark Star just isn't as skilled at fighting as Bowser is; the fight was more complicated than that, anyway. All I'm trying to prove is that Bowser can take hits from himself (particularly on his shell.) There are multiple statements that Dark Bowser has all of Bowser's physical abilities, and there are several instances of Bowser and Dark Bowser canceling each other out. Examples being: The flying shell fight, if both attack at the same time, the shells collide and sends sparks everywhere, but neither is hurt. If both of them punch at the same time, the fists collide, there is a shockwave, and neither is hurt. If Dark Bowser tries a shell slam, Bowser can guard with his own shell, they collide, neither is hurt. Bowser and Dark Bowser are essentially equal in physical stats, but Bowser fights better and Dark Bowser has weird Dark Star magic powers.

Except that Bowser (and Dark Bowser by extension) is capable of doubling his weight in mid air, in addition to being able to impart even more force through the ability to fly. So it's more like body weightx2+gravity+flight force. Sometimes Dark Bowser will do something like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ST56ZwIvrJs#t=6m2s
More weight, and even higher than normal. Bowser can even break stone on the ground, so bringing the multipliers just increases it even more. Plus, you know, the spikes that add to pressure.

Not really, things just explode when he breathes on them. Pretty much exactly like Magnus. Why would it need to disintegrate it? Burning works just as well, and vampire regeneration doesn't cover fire, as Raziel demonstrates multiple times throughout Soul Reaver. I still think you're overestimating mist.

Unless they have no physical function.

Well not really because Marcus is creating it directly on Kains body as an energy source while Bowsers pressure and fire expands from his mouth.

The point I am trying to point out is that if Iron which is far softer than Kain stays solid at those temps under small pressures compared to Raziels claw, then how can Kain not take those temps? when hes been under such pressure and friction from Raz's claws?

Well if its not as skilled then clearly one is inferior. We dont seem to know, they have different qualities otherwise it would be a stalemate. Unless you can show me him canonically taking the claws to his shell then hes not got the same resistance as Kain on his shell. At the moment your talking about weight from falls and punches, all vastly less pressure.

Even calculating Bowser at something like 2 tons which is unlikely would you never get pressure equel to the claw forces of Raz or Bowser.

Not sure if Bowsers fire is hot at all or if it can cause any real damage, it can barely melt brick. It causes mostly physical damage, hence why bricks and objects explode, something Kain is invulnerable to as far as Bowser is concerned. Negative, since water burns vamps up like acid and they return but more importantly Raz only demonstrates weak vamps can burn up, just like most materials in Nosgoth seem to burn up fast which makes sense considering their atmopshere. Oh rly? Its funny you say that but not why, mist is a perfect form to use on the fly to avoid most if not all damage.

The hell is there a question mark on my post..

Originally posted by Burning thought
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Originally posted by Burning thought
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"Besides being an obvious wound and not just a smeer of blood, it also magically vanishes when he absorbs Raziel/the Blade absorbs Raziel/Raziel passes through Kain into the Blade/Raziel is absorbed. Did the editiors get lazy at that right moment or did Raziel wip the blood off his chest?"

Try and counter the point this time.

Originally posted by Burning thought
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Originally posted by Burning thought
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Originally posted by Burning thought
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I can prove via speed/distance that the time is under 0.1 second, I can see via stop-timing that it again happens in less than 0.1 second, no other method gets past 0.1 second. If you had the proof that it was 1 or 0.6 second than you would have posted it by now. Also find it hypocritical how you bark when I cant show something due to technical issues while scarcely giving any when asked on your end, so how about proving your own claims before crying about me not doing it. For instance; prove its coming up to a second.

Doesn't really matter as Ive found out that that scene only takes a single frame. It runs at 30 fps, thats 0.0333333333 seconds per frame. It would need to be 20 or 30 frames to equal 0.6 or 1 second.

(0- 11)/ 0.0333333333 = -330 ----------- 5852248.76*330 = 1.93124209e9 N

Originally posted by Burning thought
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Only in your calc which remains false until you provide evidence that the scene took a whole second to do as with the cone calc that needs real evidence besides your own word.

Originally posted by Burning thought
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And wrong for not using the correct cone area [Its actually (pi*r*sl)*3 = (pi*1mm*2mm)*3 = 0.0000188495559 m^2], using the cone area at all and using a, what I can only guess, 0.5 second time. That and never being able to find Kain's inner biology stats. Dude, whats with the cat and kitten scratch fascination?

Originally posted by Burning thought
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Ok sure, I don't mind. Show me which pieces of evidence I ignored that aren't your theories dismissed due to my evidence and what Red Herring's I made that aren't queries or your own misinterpretations.

Originally posted by BloodRain
The hell is there a question mark on my post..

First of all that only applies if the second strike is directly hitting the first wound, which its not in this case. Second is that Kain would have to have an inner body far weaker than his skin if one flesh-wound can allow a strike that did nothing before become a fatal, through the chest (skin, muscle and bone) strike. And third, the first and second points together make a physically impossible situation that needs further explanation; this explanation must be filled by something or the theory doesnt work.

Obvious Straw Man is obvious. My post was about the wound vanishing after the absorption scene and instead of countering the actual post you only focused on what word I used to describe the absorption.

"Besides being an obvious wound and not just a smeer of blood, it also magically vanishes when he absorbs Raziel/the Blade absorbs Raziel/Raziel passes through Kain into the Blade/Raziel is absorbed. Did the editiors get lazy at that right moment or did Raziel wip the blood off his chest?"

Try and counter the point this time.

I'm more than willing to look into, and even accept your method if you were even confident enough in your own method to get some kind of evidence that it works besides your own word. Said this countless times. My evidence proves that 5x skins limit is all that's needed, if you don't prove that Kain's body make-up doesn't follow this rule then you'll have to prove it and supplement in your own evident-proven theories. You can start up the mocking again after you prove your theories.

Not sure what this was directed to but... It isnt about what feels right, its about what the calc proves.

I can prove via speed/distance that the time is under 0.1 second, I can see via stop-timing that it again happens in less than 0.1 second, no other method gets past 0.1 second. If you had the proof that it was 1 or 0.6 second than you would have posted it by now. Also find it hypocritical how you bark when I cant show something due to technical issues while scarcely giving any when asked on your end, so how about proving your own claims before crying about me not doing it. For instance; prove its coming up to a second.

Doesn't really matter as Ive found out that that scene only takes a single frame. It runs at 30 fps, thats 0.0333333333 seconds per frame. It would need to be 20 or 30 frames to equal 0.6 or 1 second.

(0- 11)/ 0.0333333333 = -330 ----------- 5852248.76*330 = 1.93124209e9 N

Only in your calc which remains false until you provide evidence that the scene took a whole second to do as with the cone calc that needs real evidence besides your own word.

And wrong for not using the correct cone area [Its actually (pi*r*sl)*3 = (pi*1mm*2mm)*3 = 0.0000188495559 m^2], using the cone area at all and using a, what I can only guess, 0.5 second time. That and never being able to find Kain's inner biology stats. Dude, whats with the cat and kitten scratch fascination?

Oh yeah? Video of intricate TK work not his blood powers, statement how Kain's skin/muscle/bone becomes so fragile after a flesh-cut, reason how his wound vanished if not by healing, evidence proof that your cone theory works that isnt from your own mouth, proof of the time frame. Excluding the first one they're all vital points that will clear up everything. Prove the Blade and there's nothing to say he can be stabbed by Raziel. Prove the wound and there's no reason to say he was healed. Prove the cone theory and Kain's biology and we can then gauge inner damage. Prove the time frame and Bowser's strength will be set. In-game/stated/official evidence is all you need, not opinions. Right now I'm not sure if you forgot/thought you did prove it or just can't/don't want to give any. Its kinda vital and can end the debate quickly if you can do it.

Ok sure, I don't mind. Show me which pieces of evidence I ignored that aren't your theories dismissed due to my evidence and what Red Herring's I made that aren't queries or your own misinterpretations.

It pretty much is hitting the first wound, the first wound was Kains chest which he held and doubled over, funnily enough as if he was hit by a bat which worked with my example. If you knew anything about materials like this (working in security, I know what wounds leave a mark or not on the skin) a wooden bat or even better, rubber can break bones without breaking the skin or only cause light bruising on the skin. Your whole argument here is based on ignoring a large chunk of evidence including the first Slash of the wraith blade on Kain.

And this whole thing here is a red herring, because what does Kain absorbing and healing from the wraith blade enchanted with the old balance guardians and healing the wound made by Raziels heart ripping have to do with the earlier scene?

"some kind of evidence"? youve not proven anything, only claimed you have which means your just below me on the credability scale considering I have given you several videos actually showing Kain take forces more than youve given for bowser.

First you cant prove any of these things and have not yet done so, here theres a massive hypocrite calling me a hypocrite while actually being one, ironic and amusing. Even if I did not just snort at your figuire with contempt I would find that using your numbers Bowsers only projecting 10x more force than the top layer of Kains skin can take, so you get your kitten scratch that I am talking about already.

Oh and the kitten thing is what you basically get in damage on Kain with Bowsers figuires, your figuires may I add, with mine you dont get anything, a nasty rash perhaps on Kains chest.

Ive yet to show his blood powers, Scenario has shown the only one of relevence that I know of which is Blood shower. This part is basic physics, hit a guy in the chest with a bat or punch and you cna cause internal damage rather than external but of course, the wraith blade is as you like to claim just a normal weapon! it cant possibly have any of its magical or elemental powers deal extra damage that weakened Kain but you dont want to use this logic.

1- you cant prove anything about the blade because weve seen a base Raziels work on Kain, it did nothing....you trying to take context out of a game you clearly dont understand does not change this.

The debate ended as soon as you started trying to claim 2mm of Bowsers claw is going to defeat Kain, just like the old Bayonetta argument ended with you coming up short when you started claiming shes going to use her finger nails and combine many attacks shes never done so.

Well first youve ignored the fact Kains durability is higher than Bowsers power, youve ignored the fact the power Kains shown to take is what hes completly invulnerable against, so claiming something being just a few times higher as an easy wound is also laughable. Youve ignored absorbtion from the object falling on Bowser, which is unique to strength but youve thrown it out. Also, most of your posts are red herrings from calculating 2mm of claw damage to trying to use the final wraith blade heal to apprently ignore former canon events, e.g. your theories trying to override canon. red herrings also include this question, compeltly irrelevent.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Unless they have no physical function.

Please elaborate.

Well not really because Marcus is creating it directly on Kains body as an energy source while Bowsers pressure and fire expands from his mouth.

That doesn't even mean anything. Heat is heat, it's all just molecular movement. Marcus seems to speed up molecules with his mind, Bowser may or may not use flammable gas plus a spark, there's no difference once you have fire, save for the feats. Bowser just has the better feats.

The point I am trying to point out is that if Iron which is far softer than Kain stays solid at those temps under small pressures compared to Raziels claw, then how can Kain not take those temps? when hes been under such pressure and friction from Raz's claws?

Which incidentally means nothing. I don't think you really know what you're talking about here. Iron is under pressure from all sides and, as you point out, possibly softer than Kain, which would mean it's manipulated easier, especially if it's heated enough to normally be liquid. The pressure of the earth's core is what keeps it from expanding, and thus solid. Absolutely none of this is applicable to Kain.

Well if its not as skilled then clearly one is inferior. We dont seem to know, they have different qualities otherwise it would be a stalemate. Unless you can show me him canonically taking the claws to his shell then hes not got the same resistance as Kain on his shell. At the moment your talking about weight from falls and punches, all vastly less pressure.

Not necessarily. Dark Bowser has several supernatural abilities that Bowser lacks, such as being able to create balls of energy, form cages out of darkness, and summon dark clones of Bowser's minions. He shows the ability to fly in shell form, and increase his force in mid air, which Bowser can break stone stone doing. Again, they do stalemate quite often: When their shells collide, they make sparks and neither is hurt. When their punches collide, there's a shockwave and neither is hurt. This illustrate that, physically, they are evenly matched. Bowser seems to be a better fighter, and Dark Bowser has magic, but this does not change the fact they are a stalemate in purely physical terms. They have the same body, essentially. And I already have shown you him taking hits to the shell, here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxJDa6QgBm0#t=5m48s

With spikes, of course.

Even calculating Bowser at something like 2 tons which is unlikely would you never get pressure equel to the claw forces of Raz or Bowser.

He can impart more force in mid-air, as shown in the airborne fight, in addition to being able to double his weight, it is certainly not just his weight.

Not sure if Bowsers fire is hot at all or if it can cause any real damage, it can barely melt brick. It causes mostly physical damage, hence why bricks and objects explode, something Kain is invulnerable to as far as Bowser is concerned. Negative, since water burns vamps up like acid and they return but more importantly Raz only demonstrates weak vamps can burn up, just like most materials in Nosgoth seem to burn up fast which makes sense considering their atmopshere. Oh rly? Its funny you say that but not why, mist is a perfect form to use on the fly to avoid most if not all damage.

Are you trolling? Bowser's fire isn't hot? I've shown you Bowser burn trees in seconds, I've shown you Bowser burning things underwater, I've shown you Bowser setting beings of darkness on fire. Nowhere is it indicated that Bowser's fire does damage through pressure, and I'm pretty sure you just made that up, so I'm going to ask that you prove it. No, water is stated to be deadly to vampires, and that immersion can kill them. The Elder God protected Raziel, that's not a standard case, please stop pretending it is. Mist is vulnerable to being inhaled, there ya go, I thought it was too obvious to mention, in addition to the fact that it was shown that heat can damage a mist form Kain in Blood Omen.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Please elaborate.

That doesn't even mean anything. Heat is heat, it's all just molecular movement. Marcus seems to speed up molecules with his mind, Bowser may or may not use flammable gas plus a spark, there's no difference once you have fire, save for the feats. Bowser just has the better feats.

Which incidentally means nothing. I don't think you really know what you're talking about here. Iron is under pressure from all sides and, as you point out, possibly softer than Kain, which would mean it's manipulated easier, especially if it's heated enough to normally be liquid. The pressure of the earth's core is what keeps it from expanding, and thus solid. Absolutely none of this is applicable to Kain.

Not necessarily. Dark Bowser has several supernatural abilities that Bowser lacks, such as being able to create balls of energy, form cages out of darkness, and summon dark clones of Bowser's minions. He shows the ability to fly in shell form, and increase his force in mid air, which Bowser can break stone stone doing. Again, they do stalemate quite often: When their shells collide, they make sparks and neither is hurt. When their punches collide, there's a shockwave and neither is hurt. This illustrate that, physically, they are evenly matched. Bowser seems to be a better fighter, and Dark Bowser has magic, but this does not change the fact they are a stalemate in purely physical terms. They have the same body, essentially. And I already have shown you him taking hits to the shell, here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxJDa6QgBm0#t=5m48s

With spikes, of course.

He can impart more force in mid-air, as shown in the airborne fight, in addition to being able to double his weight, it is certainly not just his weight.

Are you trolling? Bowser's fire isn't hot? I've shown you Bowser burn trees in seconds, I've shown you Bowser burning things underwater, I've shown you Bowser setting beings of darkness on fire. Nowhere is it indicated that Bowser's fire does damage through pressure, and I'm pretty sure you just made that up, so I'm going to ask that you prove it. No, water is stated to be deadly to vampires, and that immersion can kill them. The Elder God protected Raziel, that's not a standard case, please stop pretending it is. Mist is vulnerable to being inhaled, there ya go, I thought it was too obvious to mention, in addition to the fact that it was shown that heat can damage a mist form Kain in Blood Omen.

Vampires by LoK terms have functioning bodies in most ways not too unique to many other fictional vamps for example their beating heart is still the primary base of their existence, hence why they need blood. Kains body on the hand is an empty shell basically, its been shown to function on nothing.

Of course it does because normal energy spreads into many things, movement, heat, kinetic etc, Marcus goes straight to heatt without any build up of energy, just magic/psionic force while Bowsers creates his physically. Better feats? when? burning trees and knocking over brick?

ButI am asking for claws please. I want to see Bowsers claws bounce off his shell, then we can argue actual pressure later, since its not much since their bodies hardly move from the pressures their using, their not thta heavy.

That means nothing, double his weight? so? its not going to increase it to thousands of tons and hes not all that fast while flying.

No ime pointing out the evidence, his fire knocks over bricks. Ive yet to see him melt anything other than trees and thats really just your gues, the trees just disapear which happens in several games, the grass in pokemon iirc disapears if you cut it, that does not mean Ash (or red, w/e his name is) can atomize flora.

The EG simply states that he did not let Raziel die, which is actually under scrutinity from Raziel himself and theres no actual fact to suggest the EG did anything, certainly not project water resistance and stop Raziels vampiric body from burning away, your reaching and your never going to be able prove this case.

Inhaled? if you can inhale in less than a second it takes for Kain to reform, Bowser cant do this and if he did, good job, youve got Kain inside of you and ready to rip you apart on the soft inside. Kains also in control of his mist, he cant just be blown around, BO2 suggests he has just as much weight if he wants to as his oringal form and Defiance shows him floating around as mist on high altitude castles, ergo no wind blew him away, hes not so easy to control as mist as mist itself. Not sure about heat damage....also BO2 Kain mist has differences to Defiance anyway. One quick movement and kains no longer burning or is more or less intangible to attack but so far this is unessery since so far Bowsers fire attack cannot even burn anything beyond flora.

Originally posted by Burning thought
It pretty much is hitting the first wound, the first wound was Kains chest which he held and doubled over, funnily enough as if he was hit by a bat which worked with my example. If you knew anything about materials like this (working in security, I know what wounds leave a mark or not on the skin) a wooden bat or even better, rubber can break bones without breaking the skin or only cause light bruising on the skin. Your whole argument here is based on ignoring a large chunk of evidence including the first Slash of the wraith blade on Kain.

Originally posted by Burning thought
And this whole thing here is a red herring, because what does Kain absorbing and healing from the wraith blade enchanted with the old balance guardians and healing the wound made by Raziels heart ripping have to do with the earlier scene?

The wound that was with him since the heart rip all the way up to and until the absorption scene where coincidentally Raziel mentions healing. There is nothing to explain how the wound vanished besides going by what Raziel in that it healed due to the absorption phase. So do answer the above.

Originally posted by Burning thought
"some kind of evidence"? youve not proven anything, only claimed you have which means your just below me on the credability scale considering I have given you several videos actually showing Kain take forces more than youve given for bowser.

Originally posted by Burning thought
First you cant prove any of these things and have not yet done so, here theres a massive hypocrite calling me a hypocrite while actually being one, ironic and amusing. Even if I did not just snort at your figuire with contempt I would find that using your numbers Bowsers only projecting 10x more force than the top layer of Kains skin can take, so you get your kitten scratch that I am talking about already.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Oh and the kitten thing is what you basically get in damage on Kain with Bowsers figuires, your figuires may I add, with mine you dont get anything, a nasty rash perhaps on Kains chest.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Ive yet to show his blood powers, Scenario has shown the only one of relevence that I know of which is Blood shower. This part is basic physics, hit a guy in the chest with a bat or punch and you cna cause internal damage rather than external but of course, the wraith blade is as you like to claim just a normal weapon! it cant possibly have any of its magical or elemental powers deal extra damage that weakened Kain but you dont want to use this logic.

Originally posted by Burning thought
1- you cant prove anything about the blade because weve seen a base Raziels work on Kain, it did nothing....you trying to take context out of a game you clearly dont understand does not change this.

Originally posted by Burning thought
The debate ended as soon as you started trying to claim 2mm of Bowsers claw is going to defeat Kain, just like the old Bayonetta argument ended with you coming up short when you started claiming shes going to use her finger nails and combine many attacks shes never done so.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Well first youve ignored the fact Kains durability is higher than Bowsers power, youve ignored the fact the power Kains shown to take is what hes completly invulnerable against, so claiming something being just a few times higher as an easy wound is also laughable. Youve ignored absorbtion from the object falling on Bowser, which is unique to strength but youve thrown it out. Also, most of your posts are red herrings from calculating 2mm of claw damage to trying to use the final wraith blade heal to apprently ignore former canon events, e.g. your theories trying to override canon. red herrings also include this question, compeltly irrelevent.

C'mon, these are your reasons? Refuting with evidence, no use, a point that isn't mine and asking a vital question is the big bad ignoring and Herring's I was throwing at you? Meh.

*A reminder of the main points that are quite important to the debate that you have yet to provide evidence for; 1. The Iron Ball time-frame. 2. How the slash made the stab easier. 3. Why Kain's wound disappeared. 4. Official evidence that your cone theory is real. All of these need answering in order to have an official stand. The reminder is here to let you know I will keep asking and will be unable to accept your points on these matters until they're answered. Don't reply to this reminder, just post the evidence above.*

Originally posted by Burning thought
Vampires by LoK terms have functioning bodies in most ways not too unique to many other fictional vamps for example their beating heart is still the primary base of their existence, hence why they need blood. Kains body on the hand is an empty shell basically, its been shown to function on nothing.

Evidence for this claim? Where does it state that a vampire's existence is based on their heart? Further, Kain was healed by Raziel, you can't know that he's an empty shell. He still feeds on blood after that point, too.

Of course it does because normal energy spreads into many things, movement, heat, kinetic etc, Marcus goes straight to heatt without any build up of energy, just magic/psionic force while Bowsers creates his physically. Better feats? when? burning trees and knocking over brick?

You have no evidence for that, though. Magnus is capable of missing, after all, since he hits statues, and that indicates his heat does spread to other objects. There is no actual difference between heat created psychically and heat created by mundane means, unless you manage to prove Magnus' is hotter or something. And yes, Bowser does have the better feat, burning trees and destroying brick and stone in fractions of a second, even underwater. Magnus can't do that.

ButI am asking for claws please. I want to see Bowsers claws bounce off his shell, then we can argue actual pressure later, since its not much since their bodies hardly move from the pressures their using, their not thta heavy.

Strawman; I'm not claiming claws, I'm claiming spikes. I gave you spikes, since that's the claim I made. I said nothing about claws, since no one hits claws on the shell. Bowser shatters rocks and stone and makes minor earthquakes when he hits the ground (as does Dark Bowser), so they are pretty heavy.

That means nothing, double his weight? so? its not going to increase it to thousands of tons and hes not all that fast while flying.

It means his can manipulate the force he imparts while in mid-air, so saying it's simple gravity is incorrect. Both Bowser and Dark Bowser have shown the ability to further increase that force by effectively double jumping, and Bowser has shown already that simply rolling around is enough force to crush stone, better than anything Raziel's done, now what happens when that force is doubled, then augmented with a mid-air ramming attack? While on fire?

No ime pointing out the evidence, his fire knocks over bricks. Ive yet to see him melt anything other than trees and thats really just your gues, the trees just disapear which happens in several games, the grass in pokemon iirc disapears if you cut it, that does not mean Ash (or red, w/e his name is) can atomize flora.

So you're arguing that thing that catch on fire don't burn, they just go away somewhere? Not sure I understand that, nor is the Pokemon example that great, since we actually see the trees get cut into pieces in order to let you pass. What do you think the disappearing actually means, then? Sure, it's a graphical shortcut, but unless you're actually claiming that the trees just go away to live happily ever after, it doesn't change anything.

The EG simply states that he did not let Raziel die, which is actually under scrutinity from Raziel himself and theres no actual fact to suggest the EG did anything, certainly not project water resistance and stop Raziels vampiric body from burning away, your reaching and your never going to be able prove this case.

Originally posted by [b
the freaking Defiance manual[/b]]
When Raziel, first among Kain’s Lieutenants,
revealed his latest evolution — a pair of bat-like
wings — Kain responded with an act of
seemingly egotistical sadism. Tearing Raziel’s
newly fledged wings from his back, he ordered
Raziel to be cast into the Lake of the Dead,
where he would burn forever in the
roiling Abyss.
Raziel tumbled endlessly into the murky depths,
his flesh dissolving as he burned with white-hot
fire. After an eternity of torment, Raziel’s ruined
body came to rest — and as the pain receded,
he realized that he had not only survived the
descent, but had been delivered to the very seat
of the Underworld.
Like Kain before him, Raziel was saved from the
brink of oblivion by a mysterious benefactor —
a preternaturally ancient god dwelling in the
depths of the Abyss, who transformed Raziel
into a devourer of souls, and released him back
into the world to take his revenge.

Inhaled? if you can inhale in less than a second it takes for Kain to reform, Bowser cant do this and if he did, good job, youve got Kain inside of you and ready to rip you apart on the soft inside. Kains also in control of his mist, he cant just be blown around, BO2 suggests he has just as much weight if he wants to as his oringal form and Defiance shows him floating around as mist on high altitude castles, ergo no wind blew him away, hes not so easy to control as mist as mist itself. Not sure about heat damage....also BO2 Kain mist has differences to Defiance anyway. One quick movement and kains no longer burning or is more or less intangible to attack but so far this is unessery since so far Bowsers fire attack cannot even burn anything beyond flora.

Congratulations, Kain is now microscopic inside of Bowser, where he better hope he doesn't run into one of the many water filled, fire filled, or digestive acid filled areas. Anything that's not on fire is fluid filled and opens the possibility of getting Kain frozen. Not to mention all that Bowser's calories are actually on fire, and all those poison gas clouds floating around. Sounds fun. BO1 Mist Kain is sucked up and killed by mist vortexes and is damaged by lava and magic attacks, BO2 Mist Kain is not actually intangible and can be attacked by people with swords. Defiance mist Kain can't seem to keep it up longer than a second, so it's hardly that helpful when Bowser evaporates him.

Whats the water argument? We can see it instantly being unbearable and we know it can kill vamps.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Whats the water argument? We can see it instantly being unbearable and we know it can kill vamps.

Raziel states that water scorches vampires "like acid." BT is claiming that, because humans take a long time to dissolve in acid, vampires would, too. Basically he's downplaying the effects that water has by abusing the dictionary definition of "acid."

...but.. we can see it instantly killing him. Being submerged in any kind of corrosive acid will not leave a body after an hour, seeing as Raziel still has a body its not exactly like acid. But it swiftly kills them either way.

From the scene he's 'dead' before reaching the floor, and I doubt it'd even take a half a minute to reach the bottom.

Originally posted by The Scenario

Kains only alive as a vampire because of the heart of darkness ,otherwise he would be a bag of flesh, how do you not know this? I know because only the heart of darkness can revive vamps in that way and Raziel cant make another heart of darkness so unless hes gained a human heart or something or theres a non working piece of muscle just sitting in him, it doesnt matter, he runs off pure "scion of balance" ness.

Magnus can shatter statues in seconds, hell instantly but Bowser can knock over walls? I could probably knock over a wall depending on its size, how does that make bowser more impressive?

Its not a strawman, thats what I am asking for, if you cant provide that then this conversation means nothing.

It is simple gravity, your just suggesting hes heavier, at most twice as heavy but its still simple gravity. What? You think breaking stone is impressive? stone has a psi strength of only a few thousands of pascals or something, thats nothing to what Raziels claw energy can do so I dont think you know what your talking about.

I dont know where the trees go, what I am saying is its poor evidence for your case. Assuming they have turned to particles or disintegration is a long shot and as you said, its just a graphical shortcut, hence why in-gameplay graphics being a gauge for some feats can be null or void.

"brink of oblivious" ergo brink of death, nothing about water resistance or water protection of any kind. Your disproven by the fact the Dumahim in the earlier videos prove that they can exist for centuries without fully dissolving in water and can still be revived if water is removed, since water burns like acid, this would be equel to humans sitting in sulfuric or battery acid for 100 years and still being solid enough to function.

Sounds like something Kain could bypass in a morning jog before slicing bowsers brain in half, but as I said bowsers not capable of this, and in the case Kain does it for lulz he turns back into mist and comes out of Bowsers orifices. "damaged", not completly because you cannot get through the area without bypassing these areas as mist or just walking on them, either way this gives Kain pretty good resistance to heat in general and since lava can moltenise rock, solid rock let alone brick thats a better feat against heat than Bowser has.

Not sure what proves "cant", he mists in and out at will as often as he likes and its classed as a "form", theres no duration. Bowser has nothing fast enough that can evaporate or even touch Kain in the fraction of a second Kain needs to be mist for.

Originally posted by BloodRain

No, youve shown a screen cap of blood which you generally assumed came from his pectoral even though a strike solely here should have knocked him to the right, when instead it just knocked him backwards meaning the balance of the strike was in the center, which is confirmed when Kain holds his whole chest, ive had someone jab something sharp across my pectoral before (not a knife thankfully) myself and I did not hold my whole chest and bend over. Your the one assuming its just a cut, I see....

No, you see you need to prove why a different even or context has no meaning here. That Kain being struck by a weapon thats shown to greatly wound him and weaken him, far more so than Dante and Vergil who have been wounded which took them down to human levels of endurance. Your pretending a lot of the game did not happen to assume Raziel suddenly despite being weaker than before (yet more context) could harm Kain. The only other option you have is that the last soul or so, and the power Raziel has gained since the end of Soul reaver (soul reaver 2 and Defiance having Raziel gain new powers and strengths) have given him the edge to pierce Kain.

There is no wound shown visible on Kains character model at any point during Kain and Raziels fight. We see blood that may be coming from Kains mouth now that I am looking again. I ask again, whats Kain gaining healing far later in the game to having his heart ripped out to do with this earlier scene?

quote where your 5x theory is proven please, because so far I dont recall you actually proving this at all, first how much pressure per square mm human skin can take is vague at best last I recall and so is the pressure created by a Raptor. Not really, since the ball feat does not explain anything at all, wheras the numbers for what Kain can take is proven.

Again, your stateing it, not proving it. Ive done that already but your fond of believing your claims and opinions are already proof, kinda like Quanchi. I can no more show you my youtube downloader and me testing it frame by frame than you can show me your method, again all I can do is the same as you, claim thats what I found. The difference is as I just said, I ran your numbers through, at best with your numbers bowser is 10x strong enough to do the kitten scratch I pointed out.

😆 what? you have to break bones to cause more damage? thats not even logic, you can break organs without breaking bones. Also the way Kain takes the blow as I said proves pressure is across the length of his body but more importantly, if it actually cut deep into him you would have only cut damage and if this was a normal iron blade Raziel was using then maybe that too, but neither of those assumptions you seem to be using are true, Kain takes sharp weapons as if they were blunt and barely gets cut, hence why earlier Raziels claws do nothing.

I dont know what your fascination with what your dubbing the "cone calc" is. You calculate the cone because thats the surface area touching Kians body, from there we can find the pressure compared to how much Kain can take in this area, how else are you going to find how much force mathematically is involved?

Erm two lies, first off. Good job, "far below"=10x max with your numbers which I disagree on.

Oh but it does, it changes the feat drastically, if we could find out how much force is absorbed by his body and not necesserily all his strength you would reduce how much Bowser actually has to do. Objects hitting another object slow down and lose energy purely on sheer durability of an object, since we know Bowser can take the ball as a durability feat and not just his strength, its relevent.

So what wold you do to find out? copare veloceraptors to humans? 😆 stopped reading.....well no i didnt really but you like to say this, fact is thats the only way to find pressure at that area and compare it to what Kain can take.

1. Same as you, 2. irrelevent as we see this happen. 3. Theres no visible wound in the first place 4. Thats surface area, weve been calculating it to find pressure comparisons forevor now yet you still cant notice it. Evidence you still need?

1. Same point as above, prove your case. 2. Prove the reaver does no damage to weaken Kain (you cant, it clearly does) 3. Show the wound your mentioning. 4. Show your theory if you dont like using pressure to pressure comparisons, you dont have a method otherwise.

Originally posted by BloodRain
...but.. we can see it instantly killing him. Being submerged in any kind of corrosive acid will not leave a body after an hour, seeing as Raziel still has a body its not exactly like acid. But it swiftly kills them either way.

From the scene he's 'dead' before reaching the floor, and I doubt it'd even take a half a minute to reach the bottom.

Its stated as acid, Raziel describes his time in the abyss as unspeakable agony during a time that ceased to exist and other characters in the game as I mentioned to Scenario can exist in water for centuries, water is not a weakness to a vampire any more than a light acid may be to a human.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Kains only alive as a vampire because of the heart of darkness ,otherwise he would be a bag of flesh, how do you not know this? I know because only the heart of darkness can revive vamps in that way and Raziel cant make another heart of darkness so unless hes gained a human heart or something or theres a non working piece of muscle just sitting in him, it doesnt matter, he runs off pure "scion of balance" ness.

That's obviously false, proven when he lives without it, so try again. You didn't answer my question, what evidence is there that the heart is the base of the vampire's existence? Kain was healed by Raziel, he still feeds on blood, poison would still mess him up.

Magnus can shatter statues in seconds, hell instantly but Bowser can knock over walls? I could probably knock over a wall depending on its size, how does that make bowser more impressive?

The fact that he does it with fire, obviously. His destruction of brick and stone, as well as still living trees puts him on par to above Magnus, especially since his fire remains effective underwater. Given Kain's known weakness to fire, and how Magnus can one shot him, Bowser will do the same.

Its not a strawman, thats what I am asking for, if you cant provide that then this conversation means nothing.

Stop trying to change the subject; I proved that Bowser's shell was immune to spikes with a lot more force behind them than Raziel can produce. You demanding claws instead does not invalidate the known durability of Bowser's shell.

It is simple gravity, your just suggesting hes heavier, at most twice as heavy but its still simple gravity. What? You think breaking stone is impressive? stone has a psi strength of only a few thousands of pascals or something, thats nothing to what Raziels claw energy can do so I dont think you know what your talking about.

It is, again, not simply gravity when both Bowser and Dark Bowser are capable of adding to the force they produce via flight/double jump. It's gravity (x2 thanks to the weight doubling ability) + the force Bowser can jump with, which is already enough to shatter stone walls. Raziel can't break stone, though. We've seen him kick, stab, or otherwise lift stone, all without breaking it. Bowser does so by casually rolling around, what do you think will happen when we add in gravity (x2 weight) and the flight force?

I dont know where the trees go, what I am saying is its poor evidence for your case. Assuming they have turned to particles or disintegration is a long shot and as you said, its just a graphical shortcut, hence why in-gameplay graphics being a gauge for some feats can be null or void.

You're missing the point. The trees in pokemon go away after what happens? They get cut into little pieces. That shows that the tree is cut down and in enough pieces to be out of the way. These trees go away after being burned. Similarly, it means they're burned enough to be out of the way, i.e: burned to a crisp. So either way, nothing changes, the trees are still burned away enough let Bowser pass.

"brink of oblivious" ergo brink of death, nothing about water resistance or water protection of any kind. Your disproven by the fact the Dumahim in the earlier videos prove that they can exist for centuries without fully dissolving in water and can still be revived if water is removed, since water burns like acid, this would be equel to humans sitting in sulfuric or battery acid for 100 years and still being solid enough to function.

"Saved from the brink of oblivion" means that if he were not saved, he'd be in oblivion. You know, dead. Because he's weak to water, like all vampires. It's also proved by the Turelim getting pushed into water and dying instantly, in cutscene, as well as Kain being unable to enter water without dying.

Sounds like something Kain could bypass in a morning jog before slicing bowsers brain in half, but as I said bowsers not capable of this, and in the case Kain does it for lulz he turns back into mist and comes out of Bowsers orifices. "damaged", not completly because you cannot get through the area without bypassing these areas as mist or just walking on them, either way this gives Kain pretty good resistance to heat in general and since lava can moltenise rock, solid rock let alone brick thats a better feat against heat than Bowser has.

What part? The bit where he gets torched by Bowser's internal fire or killed by all the water in the rest? Kain will be too small to do anything of importance in any case. No, actually, Kain takes damage just from floating above lava in mist, that actually implies much lower resistence, since it's only heated air not even close to the actual temperature of the lava itself. Hence, fire kills him.

Not sure what proves "cant", he mists in and out at will as often as he likes and its classed as a "form", theres no duration. Bowser has nothing fast enough that can evaporate or even touch Kain in the fraction of a second Kain needs to be mist for.

Except the fire, which would evaporate him regardless. Heck, Bowser could inhale Kain's solid form, let alone mist.

Originally posted by The Scenario
That's obviously false, proven when he lives without it, so try again. You didn't answer my question, what evidence is there that the heart is the base of the vampire's existence? Kain was healed by Raziel, he still feeds on blood, poison would still mess him up.

The fact that he does it with fire, obviously. His destruction of brick and stone, as well as still living trees puts him on par to above Magnus, especially since his fire remains effective underwater. Given Kain's known weakness to fire, and how Magnus can one shot him, Bowser will do the same.

Stop trying to change the subject; I proved that Bowser's shell was immune to spikes with a lot more force behind them than Raziel can produce. You demanding claws instead does not invalidate the known durability of Bowser's shell.

It is, again, not simply gravity when both Bowser and Dark Bowser are capable of adding to the force they produce via flight/double jump. It's gravity (x2 thanks to the weight doubling ability) + the force Bowser can jump with, which is already enough to shatter stone walls. Raziel can't break stone, though. We've seen him kick, stab, or otherwise lift stone, all without breaking it. Bowser does so by casually rolling around, what do you think will happen when we add in gravity (x2 weight) and the flight force?

You're missing the point. The trees in pokemon go away after what happens? They get cut into little pieces. That shows that the tree is cut down and in enough pieces to be out of the way. These trees go away after being burned. Similarly, it means they're burned enough to be out of the way, i.e: burned to a crisp. So either way, nothing changes, the trees are still burned away enough let Bowser pass.

"Saved from the brink of oblivion" means that if he were not saved, he'd be in oblivion. You know, dead. Because he's weak to water, like all vampires. It's also proved by the Turelim getting pushed into water and dying instantly, in cutscene, as well as Kain being unable to enter water without dying.

What part? The bit where he gets torched by Bowser's internal fire or killed by all the water in the rest? Kain will be too small to do anything of importance in any case. No, actually, Kain takes damage just from floating above lava in mist, that actually implies much lower resistence, since it's only heated air not even close to the actual temperature of the lava itself. Hence, fire kills him.

Except the fire, which would evaporate him regardless. Heck, Bowser could inhale Kain's solid form, let alone mist.

He lives without it because in the words of the devs "his nature as the scion of balance allows him to", nothing to do with vampirism. Also you just re-stated here, not countered, Kains chest was healed, not the heart of darkness restored and prove he still feeds on blood, that claim is impossible since his body has no physical requirements, not even the object of his life and soul anchor.

Thats impressive? its just pressure, small amounts like a little explosion. He doesnt destroy brick though, it stays fairly solid, it seems he breaks the mortar between it. Hang on, "known weakness"? he can be destroyed as Blood omen 2 Kain by magnus, Magnus who blasting statues to piecies>>>knocking bricks from their mortar on a Kain whos so far below the one in this thread its laughable.

No you didnt, show me this proof? you made the claim that apprently Bowser breaking stone was impressive...I countered by the fact Raziels pressure at his claws is vastly beyond this...

In your case though the force Dark bowser jumps with is only enough to launch him a few meters in the air and fall down on Bowser, double his weight and youve got pressures probably barely enough to crush a car, if that.

Their just removed from the game, you have no case to say what happened them. Your just assuming, your also looking too much into a gameplay constant no more important than pokemon shredding grass and trees, its just a method of moving through the world. You would have something if you had a cutscene of Bowser actually visually turnign a tree to ash.

It simply means he did not lose the ability to percieve and exist, thats it. Nothing there about stopping him from being dissolved by water or increasing his reisstance. Kain afaik never canonically falls in water and when he does in the gameplay he takes damage or turns into bats to avoid damage, its still canon and storyline that Dumahim lay in water for centuries and were still able to revive once it is removed. The fact is though, Kain has proven that removing the object of his life, even the primary object such as the heart of darkness does not destroy him or stop him hence why he is truly immortal.

😆 too small, Mario bros go so far as to actually alter Bowsers functions and even amp him on several ocasions beyond his normal limits, being too small to do anything is a lie. Heated air? sit a meter or so from lava and then call it heated air, heated to the point where its still enough to sear flesh yet Kains mist is still surviving within heat far beyond Bowsers "brick mortar" busting fire 😄

What fire? show me Bowser doing fast fire because so far youve shown me fire thats takes seconds to do, even if its a breath. Yeh because Bowsers inhaled someone with as much strength and resistance as Kain before...oh wait...all he would achive is a reaver in the face followed by death.