Final Destination [Maximum] Vol.9 Bowser X Kain

Originally posted by Burning thought
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-Evidence? He can move blood before he ever gets TK. Never seen him do anything close to this. Evidence?

-Yeah we do. He's force to turn into bats whenever it gets past drop-deepness. No evidence suggests his water resistance grew just like there's no evidence for heat. Raziel can spent a long time in water due to the ability he consumed Rahab's soul 😐

-With nothing even hinting that his force would break his claws besides the idea you brought up, and as you were the one to bring it up youre the one that needs to prove it or drop it.

Cheers Scene.

Originally posted by Burning thought
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Yeah I was using your theorized SA up until now to be fair but seeing as you didnt even attempt to prove your theory was correct I gave up on using that. And until you do decide to prove things it remains as 1mm^2 for each claw as the SA keeping the force far above Kain's durability.

Wheres the links? Or the quotes? Or any evidence that didnt come from yourself? Once again, go and prove that your formula is correct.

Originally posted by Burning thought
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Oh sorry, Ive seemed to have missed the post where you supplied in-game proof that the Wraith Blade can weaken someones durability. Do me a solid and show me that evidence again.

...So now your saying that Kain cant even be healed at all? Check the second time it happens one more time. Kain has a damaged and bloodied chest from where Raziel ripped his heart out. He has this wound for the rest of the game until Raziel is absorbed and the wound is fully healed. Figured youd be able to recall this from memory by now.

..Veloceraptors are not incredibly strong 😐 They're 50cm tall, weigh 15kg and are built for grabbing, not tearing. Their 'grabs' are weaker then a lions tearing bits. And the hell... if human skin limit is 100 psi and Vraptors are 5x that.. how can their force be less then 100? Its below a lions bite psi which are strong animals with teeth made for tearing.

Originally posted by Burning thought
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1. No.

2. Sad and ironic how you used to call people childish all the time and now act like this..

3. Yeah height isnt in the formula for calc the SA of a cone. Only the side length and radius. The height/side difference in the case of 2mm will be a fraction of this extra and wont really change the end result. Not that Im bothering with this stuff til you decide to back up for formulas.

Originally posted by Burning thought
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Add the pressure and RazielBowsers difference will less but the humanRaziel difference will be even closer. Bowser over 3 tips, Kain over 2 tips, human over 1 tip. Could look into that and see whats up. Or could look at the fact that with gravity its 2e20, without it its 1.967e20. Not too bothered really.

Youll find that Raziel's claws do increase to until 4-6cm, well past 1mm. In the same logic that Bowser struggles with something a fraction of his pressure, vamps claws will struggle on something a fraction of theirs.

Originally posted by Burning thought
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And a lil maturity next time would be swell.

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Ok Im pretty sure you've dodged every opportunity to provide evidence every time. So far its only been dodging, insulting and covering your sides ass with the basic 'I'm right' mentality. I don't care when those random trolls do it, but youre one of the few I can get regular sport out of here. Think you can get back to actual counter-arguments and evidence? Not worth it otherwise.

Originally posted by BloodRain
-They were doing.. nothing. 'Amped by the star' Im asking about base here.

-Evidence? He can move blood before he ever gets TK. Never seen him do anything close to this. Evidence?

-Yeah we do. He's force to turn into bats whenever it gets past drop-deepness. No evidence suggests his water resistance grew just like there's no evidence for heat. Raziel can spent a long time in water due to the ability he consumed Rahab's soul 😐

-With nothing even hinting that his force would break his claws besides the idea you brought up, and as you were the one to bring it up youre the one that needs to prove it or drop it.

Cheers Scene.

Yeah I was using your theorized SA up until now to be fair but seeing as you didnt even attempt to prove your theory was correct I gave up on using that. And until you do decide to prove things it remains as 1mm^2 for each claw as the SA keeping the force far above Kain's durability.

Wheres the links? Or the quotes? Or any evidence that didnt come from yourself? Once again, go and prove that your formula is correct.

Oh sorry, Ive seemed to have missed the post where you supplied in-game proof that the Wraith Blade can weaken someones durability. Do me a solid and show me that evidence again.

...So now your saying that Kain cant even be healed at all? Check the second time it happens one more time. Kain has a damaged and bloodied chest from where Raziel ripped his heart out. He has this wound for the rest of the game until Raziel is absorbed and the wound is fully healed. Figured youd be able to recall this from memory by now.

..Veloceraptors are not incredibly strong 😐 They're 50cm tall, weigh 15kg and are built for grabbing, not tearing. Their 'grabs' are weaker then a lions tearing bits. And the hell... if human skin limit is 100 psi and Vraptors are 5x that.. how can their force be less then 100? Its below a lions bite psi which are strong animals with teeth made for tearing.

1. No.

2. Sad and ironic how you used to call people childish all the time and now act like this..

3. Yeah height isnt in the formula for calc the SA of a cone. Only the side length and radius. The height/side difference in the case of 2mm will be a fraction of this extra and wont really change the end result. Not that Im bothering with this stuff til you decide to back up for formulas.

Add the pressure and RazielBowsers difference will less but the humanRaziel difference will be even closer. Bowser over 3 tips, Kain over 2 tips, human over 1 tip. Could look into that and see whats up. Or could look at the fact that with gravity its 2e20, without it its 1.967e20. Not too bothered really.

Youll find that Raziel's claws do increase to until 4-6cm, well past 1mm. In the same logic that Bowser struggles with something a fraction of his pressure, vamps claws will struggle on something a fraction of theirs.

Simply amused, eh?

And a lil maturity next time would be swell.

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Ok Im pretty sure you've dodged every opportunity to provide evidence every time. So far its only been dodging, insulting and covering your sides ass with the basic 'I'm right' mentality. I don't care when those random trolls do it, but youre one of the few I can get regular sport out of here. Think you can get back to actual counter-arguments and evidence? Not worth it otherwise.

-I dont know that, how do you know that? Point is, their there, and they amp him and aid him at various points in the game. Thats my point, even amped hes weaker than other bowsers.

- What are you calling "before he gets TK"? also you keep saying "evidence" like youve given a load on him having airbender powers.

-Never canonically happened, also defined "forced", he "does". He consumed Rahabs soul halfway through Soul reaver, not when he was a vampire and spent "time that ceased to exist" in the Abyss.

-There is something hinting, thousands of pascals of pressure, pressure hes never taken. What your saying now is that all characters are invincible, and that until someone disproves otherwise they will remain so.....your talking nonsense and forgetting negatives are not proven, only positives, e.g. your positive that Bowser "can", i dont prove he "cant".

😆 I have proven it in math several pages ago that 2mm area of Bowsers claw is<<Kains resistance in 2mm.

I gave you the link for surface area, its what weve been using for a long while.

Sure buddy ol pal, see;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zc_HM2vaTfU#t=2m5s

Kain takes 3x earth core pressure a couple of times in unison.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vX26Rkefiyo#t=8m10s

Kain takes a single slash across his torso by the reaver and it cuts him, by a fairly weak Raziel no less who is heaving with some effort. Kain is not only bleeding, but holds his chest and stoops over a little, the pressure was immense and seems to be deeper than the small cut on his left pectoral.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vX26Rkefiyo#t=8m44s

Now here, a few moments after this wound that Kains never felt the like of, by a weapon he admits can harm (he belives is the only weapon) which is enhanced by spiritual and elemental powers Kain actually gets pierced deeply by a weak raziel. Proof, that Kain is a lot weaker on the chest here after a strike, than if he was at full health.

This is like me going into a Zelda vs thread and argueing with SP and Moo on LoZ storyline specifics just because I watched a clip or two. One, Kain never absorbs Raziel, the sword does, Kain absorbs the wraith blade powered by the souls of the former guardians which heals him, and its this time, the only time he is healed and only time he can be healed. Raziels wraith blade is still on his arm last time I checked after tearing Kains heart out.

Hang on, what exactly are you looking at for "raptors" piercing "humans" anyway? The tip of their claw is probably sharp and therefore, a humans pascal resistance being in the tens or hundreds would be pathetic at this level.

1. Wow, your best argument yet.

2. Thats funny coming from you

3. What are you struggling with here? Ive given you the formula

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_relationship_between_the_newton_and_the_pascal

Also its still relevent, we need height otherwise why;

http://www.calculatorsoup.com/calculators/geometry-solids/cone.php

This calculator ask for height? Must be relevent.

I dont know what a human has to do with anything, a human cant deal earth core pressure. Your actually looking at a newton value for Bowser closer to 6 million assuming my calculations are correct but I am not going to claim that yet until I have finished the calc, your adding gravity to 11/m/s it seems in your calc as a whole, when youve got to divide the deceleration which is 11 n/s by the gravity, because the acceleration of it falling down, has gravity included if that makes sense.

Difference is, I am not saying Raziel is going to pierce Kain, because he cant without help as FMV shows us. Your claiming Bowser with higher SA, and higher scaling SA as his claws get much fatter is somehow going to pierce the full 2mm of skin just because hes got a higher surface tip pressure than Raziel who cant break the very surface of Kains skin. Raziel who is>1.8 million newtons cant do anything to Kain over 2 claws, Bowser "may" be able to scrape the skin as I have said all along on his 3/4 claws but not more.

again, asking for "maturity" is rich coming from you.

I have posted all this evidence, your insulting and mocking me by using your vague sense of Lok series to claim you have some greater insight over someone who knows it well, and on top of that claim I am somehow inventing how surface area works when I got most of it from morridini or online anyway....

I think your ignoring the fact Bowsers claw gets larger, the further you go down on purpose just to annoy/troll because I cant see how else you can still be argueing him "wrecking" kain just because he has more pressure than raziel at his very claw tip, Raziel who can do nothing to Kain anyway.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Cheers Scene.

I think he's ignoring me. 🙁

-I dont know that, how do you know that? Point is, their there, and they amp him and aid him at various points in the game. Thats my point, even amped hes weaker than other bowsers.

Since I'm apparently doing this just for BloodRain's benefit, I'll say that my previous post in this thread contains the relevant link, which outright shows the Mario Bros. doing nothing until after Bowser has caught the iron ball and held it for several seconds. (IF BT wasn't ignoring me he should have seen this link, so I'll just continue under the assumption he isn't reading my posts.)

- What are you calling "before he gets TK"? also you keep saying "evidence" like youve given a load on him having airbender powers.

In Blood Omen, Kain does not have any telekinetic ability, except for the way he feeds on blood from a distance, which involves the blood just flowing into his mouth. He first gains real telekinesis in Blood Omen 2 by drinking the blood of psychic known as The Seer.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R77OgxBWkgA#t=3m30s

He can use telekinetic abilities in Defiance, as well, in that he can pick people up and choke/hold limbs. He's never used TK to pop eyes, brains, or really anything BT is claiming here, much less use tons of force doing so.

-Never canonically happened, also defined "forced", he "does". He consumed Rahabs soul halfway through Soul reaver, not when he was a vampire and spent "time that ceased to exist" in the Abyss.

I posted the relevant links in my previous post. BT is correct in that Raziel seems to have survived in water before he consumed Rahab's soul. What BT neglected to mention, however, is that Raziel was protected by the Elder God. The Defiance manual has this to say:

When Raziel, first among Kain’s Lieutenants,
revealed his latest evolution — a pair of bat-like
wings — Kain responded with an act of
seemingly egotistical sadism. Tearing Raziel’s
newly fledged wings from his back, he ordered
Raziel to be cast into the Lake of the Dead,
where he would burn forever in the
roiling Abyss.
Raziel tumbled endlessly into the murky depths,
his flesh dissolving as he burned with white-hot
fire. After an eternity of torment, Raziel’s ruined
body came to rest — and as the pain receded,
he realized that he had not only survived the
descent, but had been delivered to the very seat
of the Underworld.
Like Kain before him, Raziel was saved from the
brink of oblivion by a mysterious benefactor —
a preternaturally ancient god dwelling in the
depths of the Abyss, who transformed Raziel
into a devourer of souls, and released him back
into the world to take his revenge.

This is confirmed in cutscene here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMTasRHZTcM#t=4m53s

In addition, BT failed to mention that before Raziel consumed Rahab, he still can't enter water or he'll dissolve just like a vampire. The Elder God explains as much here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I28hIOSJbMs#t=5m03 (6:21 for Raziel to explain it a second time.)

Water dissolves his physical body; This isn't fatal to Raziel because he's a wraith and can survive without a body. Dissolving Kain's physical body would kill him.

Originally posted by Burning thought
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-Because they dont start acting until the player moves them, not at every given moment. Im still talking about base, dont care what an amped version did or didnt do.

-Scene covered this. I ask for evidence and you talk about me asking for evidence? How about giving evidence when asked?

-Scene also nicely covered this with stated weakness. And would have remained a corps if not for EG.

-Point out the moment in the game where this is hinted.

Originally posted by Burning thought
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Really? Of all the things to prove like formulas and in-game evidence that Ive been asking for a while now, you decide to link those vids instead?

Originally posted by Burning thought
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You're putting a patch point over this. Right now you see a hole and are filling it with the other thing in the equation. The weapon has never once been stated to weaken durability and by saying it does youre giving it an ability thats has never been given. Retcon is easier to believe then making up an ability.

Missed the point entirely. Kain had a visible wound lasting for several hours until the final absorption scene where it disappears. Explain how the wound vanished.

For being a claw with an increasing size only producing 5x skin limit while making a 4cm penetration. Only 5 times the pressure and getting past '1mm' even if it increases in size.

Originally posted by Burning thought
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1. Ah petty insults.

2. I dont recall being the one infamous for calling people childish dozens of times.

3. Missed the point.. again. Proof that your formula for using SA of a cone for this is correct and not completely made up.

Originally posted by Burning thought
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Just that resistant plate idea and how the difference in force between Raziel and a human is even less then Bowse and Raziel to Raziel would be on the same '1-2mm' boat for his claws. Thats still on the old calc with acceleration, not deceleration. Catching something is an act of deceleration.

Yeah, 400+x the pressure. Im claiming that the guy a thousand times stronger than Raziel will be able to do far greater damage even with an extra claw.

Originally posted by Burning thought
I think your ignoring the fact Bowsers claw gets larger, the further you go down on purpose just to annoy/troll because I cant see how else you can still be argueing him "wrecking" kain just because he has more pressure than raziel at his very claw tip, Raziel who can do nothing to Kain anyway.

Ive asked for real evidence on the Wraith blade and the formula and all you did was state what your think. How is that getting evidence? Waitwaitwait, me having a vague sense of LoK means I'm mocking you.. Repeat that to yourself. No, youve actually be insulting to Scene and myself in nearly each point so much that he was about to report you but instead stopped debating. I don't remember anyone else talking about the cones 'sides you.

It might be due to the minute area difference compared to the massive force difference. Speaking of trolls; even in this segment where I sincerely asked you to stop insulting and post more evidence you take it as a jab at you and retaliate.

Edit: BT stop ignoring Scene. He pretty much made my version of those posts look like crap :I

SCENE. The blue section in my last post, it make sense to you?

Originally posted by BloodRain
SCENE. The blue section in my last post, it make sense to you?

This?

I'd like to expand on that tid-bit. Human's 8e3 strength x 234 = Raziel's 1.87e6 strength x 978 = Bowser's 1.83e9 strength. The reason of the expansion is this; By your theory, Bowser cannot pierce past a 1 mm of Kain because he can take pressure from Raziel, and its like this even if Bowser's almost 1,000 times Raziel's strength. Now, from this exact method of thinking it would mean that if that human strength with a knife tried and failed to penetrate an object/person then Kain and Raziel, who are only 234 times human strength, would fail to penetrate 0.25mm.

So, for the same reason Bowser can barely penetrate Kain, Kain and Raziel will do even less than that to... a knife proof vest?

Yes, it does. If Bowser can't penetrate Kain's skin despite being almost 1000 times stronger than Raziel, then Raziel/Kain would also be unable to pierce a knife-proof vest, despite being 234 times stronger than a knife. That's the logic at work here? Kinda crazy.

Or does BT think that Bowser is not actually 1000 times stronger than Raziel?

Originally posted by BloodRain
-Because they dont start acting until the player moves them, not at every given moment. Im still talking about base, dont care what an amped version did or didnt do.

-Scene covered this. I ask for evidence and you talk about me asking for evidence? How about giving evidence when asked?

-Scene also nicely covered this with stated weakness. And would have remained a corps if not for EG.

-Point out the moment in the game where this is hinted.

Proving that your formulas right by saying 'I proved it right' means nothing. Prove it as in go find some official formula, show it to me then compare how its the same as what you did.

Really? Of all the things to prove like formulas and in-game evidence that Ive been asking for a while now, you decide to link those vids instead?

You're putting a patch point over this. Right now you see a hole and are filling it with the other thing in the equation. The weapon has never once been stated to weaken durability and by saying it does youre giving it an ability thats has never been given. Retcon is easier to believe then making up an ability.

Missed the point entirely. Kain had a visible wound lasting for several hours until the final absorption scene where it disappears. Explain how the wound vanished.

For being a claw with an increasing size only producing 5x skin limit while making a 4cm penetration. Only 5 times the pressure and getting past '1mm' even if it increases in size.

1. Ah petty insults.

2. I dont recall being the one infamous for calling people childish dozens of times.

3. Missed the point.. again. Proof that your formula for using SA of a cone for this is correct and not completely made up.

Just that resistant plate idea and how the difference in force between Raziel and a human is even less then Bowse and Raziel to Raziel would be on the same '1-2mm' boat for his claws. Thats still on the old calc with acceleration, not deceleration. Catching something is an act of deceleration.

Yeah, 400+x the pressure. Im claiming that the guy a thousand times stronger than Raziel will be able to do far greater damage even with an extra claw.

Ive asked for real evidence on the Wraith blade and the formula and all you did was state what your think. How is that getting evidence? Waitwaitwait, me having a vague sense of LoK means I'm mocking you.. Repeat that to yourself. No, youve actually be insulting to Scene and myself in nearly each point so much that he was about to report you but instead stopped debating. I don't remember anyone else talking about the cones 'sides you.

It might be due to the minute area difference compared to the massive force difference. Speaking of trolls; even in this segment where I sincerely asked you to stop insulting and post more evidence you take it as a jab at you and retaliate.

Edit: BT stop ignoring Scene. He pretty much made my version of those posts look like crap :I

SCENE. The blue section in my last post, it make sense to you?

- Well I care, thats what I was talking about, why do you care what a non amped bowser can do if the amped one in Galaxy is weaker than the "luigi/mario" one in inside story? also its not just the player controlling Mario and luigi, since I am pretty sure what they do to amp him to throw it is necessery.

-Evidence for what? Kain controls blood which is a physical body, since we know he has TK, its the best use for it. Also, we know the Seer Scene mentioned only strengthens Kains TK range, he displays TK time and time again before, she even mentions Kain can move things by pure will alone.

-What? that he does not need a durability feat and allows you to assume him and his claws are indestructable? I lold.....maybe ill try this trick with kain. Who needs durability feats and math if apprently we can claim indestructable until proven otherwise.

What formula exactly? I have several links below, ive used either Morridinis or surface area formula below, so what "formula" am I using you want proof for?

The videos are my claim proven in video evidence.

Again, retcon means part of a story or element changing, considering there are no comparisons the same here and the context is relevent. Also, "reducing durability" is your name for "weakening Kains body from a strike", again, back to the example of someone being hit in the chest by a steel bat, even if it barely does any damage to their skin, their ribs and inner body is harmed, Kain proves this by stooping and holding his chest.

No, I just made you look foolish for claiming things in story, now your pretending your aim all along was this "visible" wound, if it was not healed then clearly your making tihngs up, I recall Kain bleeding from his mouth though.

Your claiming but not giving, ive provided videos and links in my previous post for my claims (provided them before but hey....BR loves his time consuming) so wheres your stuff on raptors?

1. I complimented you...

2. Calling people childish is a gauge of their maturity, but you trying to be "funny" with insulting metaphors and posts is fairly childish yes.

3. Your argueing now that apprently the surface area of the cone is irrelevent then? even though I just showed you pressure is divided over area? e.g., less force, the larger the area, meaning Kains not going to be harmed at al when we get toa certain SA.

But the boat does not hold anyone other than Kain atm who I never said gets piered by the Raz, infact ive shown the opposite. Its the same thing as acceleration surprisingly, acceleration only divided over gravity to make up for it.

a = (v - v0) / t = (-11 m/s) / (1 s) = -11 m/s^2

Deceleration -11m/s^2 or acceleration11 m/s^2

1. 11/9.8= 1.12 g's

6000 ton mass multiplied by 1.12= 6720 tons of force, or 65900688 newtons, 65 million, not your 1.8 billion although this is not finished yet. This is one guys opinion, I am waiting for others to check this, then do it myself.

400x pressure in 3mm^2 on 3 claws "maybe", again your making the claims of "thousands times" and such, hes not 1000 times stronger, his feat is based on something 20x heavier than Raziel, and he does not move it, he stops it moving which his mass and the ground beneath his feet help him in based on anchors, my calc above assuming its right actually says he only has 30x Raziels Newtons, which actually makes more sense rather than hundreds considering what hes stopping (not accelerating himself) is 20+x what Raziel moved.

Considering neither of our deceleration calcs have been confirmed yet, ill be wiling to wait.

I dont see how you can ignore "real evidence" like 3 videos proving what i just said. Yes you are, you have a vague sense of LoK, maybe not evne played any of the games and youve been argueing a major part of the story. Yes because only i have been inlsulting, arrogence, you can claim all you like but I stopped debating from his insults, hes still trying to talk.

Force spreads over area, so what your calling minute may be thousands of pascals in difference, infact my old calc of the cone gave that. Ime yet to recalc it so maybe ill get to that eventually.

I am ignoring scene due to lag of respect and insults, if he wants to troll me then he can do it without me answering his posts and wasting time. If you want to use what he has claimed then thats fine but arguieng LoK storyline specifics is not going to go well for you.

- Well I care, thats what I was talking about, why do you care what a non amped bowser can do if the amped one in Galaxy is weaker than the "luigi/mario" one in inside story? also its not just the player controlling Mario and luigi, since I am pretty sure what they do to amp him to throw it is necessery.

Unless there's an amped Bowser in this thread, talking about amps is rather pointless, I think. We're just doing base Bowser, who caught and held a giant iron ball. Before the Mario Bros. do anything, might I add.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjb9Kxb1TFI#t=55s

Bowser catches the ball at 1:05, but the Mario Bros. do not do anything until 1:16, a full 11 seconds later.

-Evidence for what? Kain controls blood which is a physical body, since we know he has TK, its the best use for it. Also, we know the Seer Scene mentioned only strengthens Kains TK range, he displays TK time and time again before, she even mentions Kain can move things by pure will alone.

Evidence of Kain using TK do what is claimed, I'd say. Though Kain doesn't really display telekinesis before this, so much as it's just kinesis.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wd9T_XDcyJA#t=3m47s

Limited to things he's touching, not really "tele-" anything. Then after he gets telekinesis, he just turns switches or pushes people. In Defiance, he picks people up and throws them, or chokes Moebious. Neither use is close to popping eyes or brains, and his feeding is still never shown to extend beyond basically melee range.

-What? that he does not need a durability feat and allows you to assume him and his claws are indestructable? I lold.....maybe ill try this trick with kain. Who needs durability feats and math if apprently we can claim indestructable until proven otherwise.

I don't think Bowser needs a durability feat to prove that he won't break his own claws. You are arguing that Bowser's own strength is too much for his body, which is, frankly, pretty silly. BloodRain and I are not arguing that Bowser's claws are indestructible, simply that you would need to prove that Bowser's strength > Bowser's claws.

I am ignoring scene due to lag of respect and insults, if he wants to troll me then he can do it without me answering his posts and wasting time. If you want to use what he has claimed then thats fine but arguieng LoK storyline specifics is not going to go well for you.

🙁

You still haven't told me what I did, though.

I dont attempt to solve negatives, I dont have to prove Bowsers claws cant take said pressures you have to prove they do. Hence you proving the positive. I used to wonder why Bowser rarely used claws and punches most of the time or pounds but now I know and it adds up to whats shown or rather, not shown. Who would want to strike planetoids he can barely smash with punches at his huge size in Galaxy with his claws and risk killing himself....

Also another interesting note, several people quite clever on the physics front have confirmed the calc and my working on Bowsers newtons, 60 million, rather than 1.8 billion newtons are more evident it would seem, so only 30x Raziels newtons, I may do some calcs now on pressure for this concerning Bowsers claws at the tip and on the 2mm areas he has to breach to actually get all the way through kains skin, then I will be satisfied with the answers.

Except that you're essentially making up a reason for Bowser not to use his claws, and trying to use a lack of evidence to prove it. You're claiming that his claws would break, and the evidence for this is...he doesn't use them often? That's not how it works, you're filling in a space where no evidence exists with your own views. You can't make a conclusion based on what was "not shown," that simply isn't how evidence works.

Not to mention we already have several examples of Bowser using his claws, which should be enough to convince you that Bowser's own strength wouldn't break his claws.

Ime saying Bowser has not shown the durability, something all of us need to apprently prove, including Kain in a vs to take the pressures at his claw tips. You cant claim that the claws would not break or are invincible just because they have not broken. or I can claim, by the same logic Kain is invincible outside of the wraith blade just because hes not been pierced by conventional forces. You need proof of Bowsers claws taking said pressure, or your asking me to prove the negative that his claws "cant" take pressure equel to this.

Try and imagine it this way, if the Olmypic strength heavyweight champion of today punched a wall, it would still likely hurt even if he caused damage. Now imagine if he used his little finger or something, he would no doubt break his finger, because his bones cant take all that force on such a small part of him, they dont have the durability. Just like Bowsers claws, which would add sense to him using punches most, if not all of the time. You brinigng up him using his claws holds as much relevence in this example, as me bringing up this heavyweight champion using his little finger to dip into butter or something soft.

Nothing on bowsers strength scale, or anywhere close has been canonically been damaged or attacked, youve shown me gameplay of bowser using his claws on a robot whos of featless durability in a game I suspect everything is made of card or paper anyway and where durability is hardly gaugable.

I'm not sure you're getting this. You're arguing that a character cannot use his canon abilities without killing himself, and basing this on pretty much nothing. It's like me claiming Kain doesn't pop peoples brains because he'll kill himself if he does. Kain hasn't proven he has the durability to use his TK like that, so obviously he'll break his own mind under the pressure! Go ahead and prove that won't happen!

You see how stupid that sounds? I just think it makes sense for characters to do things within their power without injury. Your Olympic athlete example is a pretty good one, but it isn't really applicable to this situation, given Bowser's known durability to attacks and still being able to hit objects without injuring himself. And he has used his claws on metal objects like Smithy. Again, I'm wondering how Raziel can hit Kain without breaking his claws, when Raziel is less durable than Bowser.

Originally posted by The Scenario
I'm not sure you're getting this. You're arguing that a character cannot use his canon abilities without killing himself, and basing this on pretty much nothing. It's like me claiming Kain doesn't pop peoples brains because he'll kill himself if he does. Kain hasn't proven he has the durability to use his TK like that, so obviously he'll break his own mind under the pressure! Go ahead and prove that won't happen!

You see how stupid that sounds? I just think it makes sense for characters to do things within their power without injury. Your Olympic athlete example is a pretty good one, but it isn't really applicable to this situation, given Bowser's known durability to attacks and still being able to hit objects without injuring himself. And he has used his claws on metal objects like Smithy. Again, I'm wondering how Raziel can hit Kain without breaking his claws, when Raziel is less durable than Bowser.

Their not canon abilities, your the one attributing him using claws with pressures hes never used them in, I am baseing this claim on physics. What? Tk and durability are irrelevent so I dont know what comparison your trying to make, this is why i stopped answering you, your trolling.

yes and completly irrelevent to what I was talking about. Its not within his power, hes never shown it is since in the rare ocasions hes used claws it was uncanon or not hitting anything of note, hence why I pointed out the Athlete sticking his finger in butter rather than a wall. Theres no known durability thats on par with these pressures at such small surface areas, e.g. the tip of his claws. How else do you also explain his reluctance to use his claws most of the time? if their such a superior weapon?

Raziels claws have proven this though, if Bowser hit someone like that and just glanced the pressure off like Raziel then you would have a point for bowser using claws, at the moment your assuming just because you think it "sounds silly" for him not being able to use claws.

Originally posted by Burning thought
[B]Their not canon abilities, your the one attributing him using claws with pressures hes never used them in, I am baseing this claim on physics. What? Tk and durability are irrelevent so I dont know what comparison your trying to make, this is why i stopped answering you, your trolling.

They are canon abilities, given that Bowser has used claws in 2 different game series. You're making a claim that isn't supported by anything, though, since we know Bowser's body can withstand his own strength. Seriously, I'm not trolling, try to think about what I said. Did I say that TK and durability were related? No, I did not, I gave an extreme example asking why Kain does not pop brains and for you to prove his mind wouldn't break if he tried; no physical durability involved. In any case, that was a demonstration to illustrate how what you're claiming is ridiculous, seeing as we have seen Bowser use his claws without harming himself.

yes and completly irrelevent to what I was talking about. Its not within his power, hes never shown it is since in the rare ocasions hes used claws it was uncanon or not hitting anything of note, hence why I pointed out the Athlete sticking his finger in butter rather than a wall. Theres no known durability thats on par with these pressures at such small surface areas, e.g. the tip of his claws. How else do you also explain his reluctance to use his claws most of the time? if their such a superior weapon?

How do you know it's not within his power? See, again, you're taking an area with little indication and taking a complete guess at why it is. The fact remains that Bowser has used his claws without harm, so it's already proven that Bowser can use his own claws without harm. I'll answer your question with one of my own: How do you explain Kain's reluctance to use spells most of the time? If they're such a superior ability? Under your argument, the answer would be because "he could kill himself" using them, as opposed to something simple like "he lost them," or "he doesn't like to."

Heck, maybe Bowser just prefers not to slash; his personality is based around SMASH, CRUSH, and BURN, after all. In any given quote, the word "pulverize" will appear long before the phrase "cut to pieces." Bowser likes to burn things and stomp them. That's partially why I stopped even arguing about the claws in the first place: Bowser's first choice among most options will be fire breath first, followed by stomping out any embers that are still burning. Maybe he'll mix it up sometimes, like trying out a new weapon instead, or suddenly deciding that a solid metal dictator invading is the perfect time to use claws. Point is, "I might kill myself," is far from the best answer to the question "why are aren't you using claws?"

Raziels claws have proven this though, if Bowser hit someone like that and just glanced the pressure off like Raziel then you would have a point for bowser using claws, at the moment your assuming just because you think it "sounds silly" for him not being able to use claws.

Well, to be fair, it does sound silly. Saying that Bowser's claws aren't proven is not really true. If Bowser's claws really had no durability, wouldn't they have broken by now? He's been caught in so many explosions it's ridiculous, not to mention that his fingers are the same things he punches iron balls and rocks with. That being in addition to using his claws without damage in several games.

But hey, it's not like I really care about Bowser's claws when a little fire breath solves the problem anyway. That's still something Bowser's more likely to do than try to claw Kain and poison him. Oh, yeah, Bowser's claws are still poisoned, so either way can net Bowser a win.

Originally posted by The Scenario
They are canon abilities, given that Bowser has used claws in 2 different game series. You're making a claim that isn't supported by anything, though, since we know Bowser's body can withstand his own strength. Seriously, I'm not trolling, try to think about what I said. Did I say that TK and durability were related? No, I did not, I gave an extreme example asking why Kain does not pop brains and for you to prove his mind wouldn't break if he tried; no physical durability involved. In any case, that was a demonstration to illustrate how what you're claiming is ridiculous, seeing as we have seen Bowser use his claws without harming himself.

How do you know it's not within his power? See, again, you're taking an area with little indication and taking a complete guess at why it is. The fact remains that Bowser has used his claws without harm, so it's already proven that Bowser can use his own claws without harm. I'll answer your question with one of my own: How do you explain Kain's reluctance to use spells most of the time? If they're such a superior ability? Under your argument, the answer would be because "he could kill himself" using them, as opposed to something simple like "he lost them," or "he doesn't like to."

Heck, maybe Bowser just prefers not to slash; his personality is based around SMASH, CRUSH, and BURN, after all. In any given quote, the word "pulverize" will appear long before the phrase "cut to pieces." Bowser likes to burn things and stomp them. That's partially why I stopped even arguing about the claws in the first place: Bowser's first choice among most options will be fire breath first, followed by stomping out any embers that are still burning. Maybe he'll mix it up sometimes, like trying out a new weapon instead, or suddenly deciding that a solid metal dictator invading is the perfect time to use claws. Point is, "I might kill myself," is far from the best answer to the question "why are aren't you using claws?"

Well, to be fair, it does sound silly. Saying that Bowser's claws aren't proven is not really true. If Bowser's claws really had no durability, wouldn't they have broken by now? He's been caught in so many explosions it's ridiculous, not to mention that his fingers are the same things he punches iron balls and rocks with. That being in addition to using his claws without damage in several games.

But hey, it's not like I really care about Bowser's claws when a little fire breath solves the problem anyway. That's still something Bowser's more likely to do than try to claw Kain and poison him. Oh, yeah, Bowser's claws are still poisoned, so either way can net Bowser a win.

I have so far seen 1 event of him using claws, and it was not a canon appearance, whether or not he would actually use his claws is unkown considering how often he uses his fists in most games. No we dont, we dont, not on this scale, a punch we know because weve seen it happen when he hits planetoids, but claws? no, not that much pressure. Yes you are, Tk has no connection to harming the user, but if I punch a wall, pressure and physics dictates that i am going to get hurt, the same thing is here for Bowser only instead of human pressures and punching, hes got thousands times those pressures.

Because hes never done it, just like how I dont know Kain cant pick up the moon and throw it at someone, hes not strong enough because hes not got the feats. When? Youve shown me gameplay of Bowser using claws on a robot of unkown durability, again, remember my finger in butter example? thats what he may as well be doing unless you could prove the robot was one tough cookie. No, because under my argument spells dont have any logical or physical reason to harm you, hitting something tough does.

Ime glad you stopped argueing about the claws, their a lost cause in this argument and it seems, their pressure per area is not enough to cause kain any real damage anyway so fire is probably best.

The pressure at the tip of Bowsers claws when he strikes woudl be higher than any explosion youve shown me, if Raziels claws strike with 3x the earths core pressure which is ridiculous in itself then imagine the pressure at the end of bowsers, far higher and far more deadly to use on something you may not be able to melt through like butter. A punch is different, more surface area means less pressure both ways you see.

Not sure what poison can do to a corpse animated by an unkown force alone although as for fire, remember what I said about the pressures Kain can take capable of keeping even iron, something far denser than skin solid under near to sun temperatures? Also, show me the video of what specific fire ability hes going to do then, maybe we can argue based on this one fire ability and cut down the size of these posts.

Not sure what poison can do to a corpse animated by an unkown force alone although as for fire, remember what I said about the pressures Kain can take capable of keeping even iron, something far denser than skin solid under near to sun temperatures? Also, show me the video of what specific fire ability hes going to do then, maybe we can argue based on this one fire ability and cut down the size of these posts.

Size cutting, go! I think that poison would do plenty to Kain, given he's been shown to be vulnerable to it before.

http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Toxidity

Specifically from mutants, who could poison him with attacks.

This cleanses my body of any dangerous poisons. Quite useful with all the filth I find myself surrounded by.

Canon!

Now, then, fire. What do you need?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vt1VNEWl9I0#t=4m50s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNLSB5k9tuQ#t=2m19s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kS3TgDF9bww#t=2m
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1zHLX7q8Mg#t=5m40s

Originally posted by The Scenario
Size cutting, go! I think that poison would do plenty to Kain, given he's been shown to be vulnerable to it before.

http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Toxidity

Specifically from mutants, who could poison him with attacks.

Canon!

Now, then, fire. What do you need?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vt1VNEWl9I0#t=4m50s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNLSB5k9tuQ#t=2m19s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kS3TgDF9bww#t=2m
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1zHLX7q8Mg#t=5m40s

Kain had a heart then that animated him, a heart pumps blood around the body, blood which was important to Kain, poisons effetiveness being based on getting into the blood stream and causing heart related problems, Kain from defiance who has no heart and has shown to be able to survive without one has no tie to blood or at least poison.

Ok so first one, he gets tired from using, has a range of about 2/3 meters and shows a tree burning but then disapearing. Graphics limitations aside, and assuming the tree turned to ash like you claim 2 meters and having to be at close range with the threat of tireing himself out is hardly going to be a threat.

Second one 4 meters for about 2/3 seconds. Not sure of the power of this one.

Thid one takes about 1.5 secons to charge but lets him spit out fireballs, their fairly slow though so I dont see them hitting Kain, and their heat output is unkown again. They move at about 0.3 meters a second so unless Bowser attempts to spit at point blank I dont see this doing much.

The final one seems dangerous for Bowser, hes stationary, the fire is not much quicker than the last and there are large gaps in his flame covering meaning Kain would just have to teleport/run or jump his way to the blind spot. Bowser leaves his entire rear open to attack for a good couple of seconds as he turns.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Kain had a heart then that animated him, a heart pumps blood around the body, blood which was important to Kain, poisons effetiveness being based on getting into the blood stream and causing heart related problems, Kain from defiance who has no heart and has shown to be able to survive without one has no tie to blood or at least poison.

Can you back this up or are you just assuming you know how vampire physiology, and specifically Kain's body, works? And then you seem to be assuming you know how Bowser's poison works, so I'd like to know where "heart related problems" came from, as if there were some universal poison that does only one thing. In any case, I don't see how not having a heart would really protect Kain from poison, seeing as he doesn't seem to need it to keep his blood flowing (or however he remains alive.) Regardless, Kain still needs blood to live and having tainted blood will more than likely screw that up. (The argument could be made Kain has 2 hearts, one from his human body, and the Heart of Darkness, which based on the Defiance cutscene was in his belly for whatever reason.)

Ok so first one, he gets tired from using, has a range of about 2/3 meters and shows a tree burning but then disapearing. Graphics limitations aside, and assuming the tree turned to ash like you claim 2 meters and having to be at close range with the threat of tireing himself out is hardly going to be a threat.

Second one 4 meters for about 2/3 seconds. Not sure of the power of this one.

Thid one takes about 1.5 secons to charge but lets him spit out fireballs, their fairly slow though so I dont see them hitting Kain, and their heat output is unkown again. They move at about 0.3 meters a second so unless Bowser attempts to spit at point blank I dont see this doing much.

The final one seems dangerous for Bowser, hes stationary, the fire is not much quicker than the last and there are large gaps in his flame covering meaning Kain would just have to teleport/run or jump his way to the blind spot. Bowser leaves his entire rear open to attack for a good couple of seconds as he turns.

The first one he only gets tired from using extensively. Extensively meaning longer than 10 or so seconds, don't quite remember. Still, there's this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYsLSISF74o#t=43s

Second one is the same series brick/metal blasting fire comes from. Underwater.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UK3KG31ymj0#t=8m50s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwE0YL9o_zs#t=6m

Third one does have a small charge time, but after that Bowser can basically fire those flaming meteors for however long he wants, or at least until Mario reaches him. Why does the heat matter, Kain still has a fire weakness.

Not really, Bowser has this huge spiked shell covering his backside, so he's pretty safe there. The fireballs leave a bit to be desired, admittedly, but it's not like Kain has a resistance or anything.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Can you back this up or are you just assuming you know how vampire physiology, and specifically Kain's body, works? And then you seem to be assuming you know how Bowser's poison works, so I'd like to know where "heart related problems" came from, as if there were some universal poison that does only one thing. In any case, I don't see how not having a heart would really protect Kain from poison, seeing as he doesn't seem to need it to keep his blood flowing (or however he remains alive.) Regardless, Kain still needs blood to live and having tainted blood will more than likely screw that up. (The argument could be made Kain has 2 hearts, one from his human body, and the Heart of Darkness, which based on the Defiance cutscene was in his belly for whatever reason.)

The first one he only gets tired from using extensively. Extensively meaning longer than 10 or so seconds, don't quite remember. Still, there's this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYsLSISF74o#t=43s

Second one is the same series brick/metal blasting fire comes from. Underwater.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UK3KG31ymj0#t=8m50s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwE0YL9o_zs#t=6m

Third one does have a small charge time, but after that Bowser can basically fire those flaming meteors for however long he wants, or at least until Mario reaches him. Why does the heat matter, Kain still has a fire weakness.

Not really, Bowser has this huge spiked shell covering his backside, so he's pretty safe there. The fireballs leave a bit to be desired, admittedly, but it's not like Kain has a resistance or anything.

I have a rough idea of how poison works yes, by running through the blood stream and often causing heart problems or oxygen related problems, clots etc, its not something that is harmful if you stick it in bone marrow or something. Kains never had two hearts, the Heart of darkness goes directly in the middle of his body, covering a space that would cover his heart, if you look at where Janos audrens heart (the guys who heart it is) goes. Although having more than a single heart would have to be proven, Kains body does not work the way it used to, it runs off pure will or magic now, the heart of darkness before was the only reason he was alive which ties in with poison being a problem then.

This one seems to have a range of about a meter or so but he can keep it going for longer.

My argument on this is the same as before, most of this seems pressure related. When giant, objects Bowser hits or walks on are destroyed in exactly the same animation as wehn he burns it, nothing concerning this fire melts although kelp sort of sets alight, this proves that its not all that hot really.

I dont know about fire weakness, but if its not that hot then its not going to kill him quickly enough to make up for any regen, or he could just put it out by using mist form. And before you say "bowser will just suck him in" he cant within the split second instant Kain can go in and out of mist form.

The spiked shell apprently only has resistance against a hammer you mentioned, not swords and 3x eath pressure. Their fairly slow and may not do much damage at all, and most of these fire attacks seem to either do small burns or pure pressure daamge, its hard to gauge whether they would burn Kain at all.

Originally posted by Burning thought
I have a rough idea of how poison works yes, by running through the blood stream and often causing heart problems or oxygen related problems, clots etc, its not something that is harmful if you stick it in bone marrow or something. Kains never had two hearts, the Heart of darkness goes directly in the middle of his body, covering a space that would cover his heart, if you look at where Janos audrens heart (the guys who heart it is) goes. Although having more than a single heart would have to be proven, Kains body does not work the way it used to, it runs off pure will or magic now, the heart of darkness before was the only reason he was alive which ties in with poison being a problem then.

There's no way to predict how losing Kain's heart affected him, and saying he's running on "pure magic" is something I'm pretty sure you just made up. All you can say with certainty is that the loss of Kain's heart means he isn't affected by Meobious' staff anymore, and that he isn't dead because of his "nature as the Balance Guardian." Anything else, like how the heart even worked, is pure speculation. Assuming Kain still needs blood to live (pretty safe, since he's a vampire), tainted blood would still be a threat to him.

This one seems to have a range of about a meter or so but he can keep it going for longer.

It's the same one. Heck, Bowser is near 2 meters tall, just by going as far as his height it's more than that.

My argument on this is the same as before, most of this seems pressure related. When giant, objects Bowser hits or walks on are destroyed in exactly the same animation as wehn he burns it, nothing concerning this fire melts although kelp sort of sets alight, this proves that its not all that hot really.

That doesn't really change anything, though. It's exactly the same as Magnus' ability, which still destroys Kain pretty easily. Bowser is burning coral underwater, that seems pretty hot to me.

I dont know about fire weakness, but if its not that hot then its not going to kill him quickly enough to make up for any regen, or he could just put it out by using mist form. And before you say "bowser will just suck him in" he cant within the split second instant Kain can go in and out of mist form.

I don't think vampires can regenate from fire damage. Raziel points out that vampires regenerate too quickly from flesh wounds, but they fear water, fire, and being impaled. That indicates they don't really regenerate it that well. Then you have Zephon and Dumah catching on fire and dying, which doesn't bode well for Kain.

The spiked shell apprently only has resistance against a hammer you mentioned, not swords and 3x eath pressure. Their fairly slow and may not do much damage at all, and most of these fire attacks seem to either do small burns or pure pressure daamge, its hard to gauge whether they would burn Kain at all.

I mention a whole lot more than a hammer.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxJDa6QgBm0#t=5m48s
Remember the spikes from Dark Bowser, same strength as the normal one?

In any case, Kain does have a fire weakness, seeing as he is a vampire. We know it can kill him pretty easily already.

Originally posted by The Scenario
There's no way to predict how losing Kain's heart affected him, and saying he's running on "pure magic" is something I'm pretty sure you just made up. All you can say with certainty is that the loss of Kain's heart means he isn't affected by Meobious' staff anymore, and that he isn't dead because of his "nature as the Balance Guardian." Anything else, like how the heart even worked, is pure speculation. Assuming Kain still needs blood to live (pretty safe, since he's a vampire), tainted blood would still be a threat to him.

It's the same one. Heck, Bowser is near 2 meters tall, just by going as far as his height it's more than that.

That doesn't really change anything, though. It's exactly the same as Magnus' ability, which still destroys Kain pretty easily. Bowser is burning coral underwater, that seems pretty hot to me.

I don't think vampires can regenate from fire damage. Raziel points out that vampires regenerate too quickly from flesh wounds, but they fear water, fire, and being impaled. That indicates they don't really regenerate it that well. Then you have Zephon and Dumah catching on fire and dying, which doesn't bode well for Kain.

I mention a whole lot more than a hammer.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxJDa6QgBm0#t=5m48s
Remember the spikes from Dark Bowser, same strength as the normal one?

In any case, Kain does have a fire weakness, seeing as he is a vampire. We know it can kill him pretty easily already.

You can logically take into account how poison works and how Kain not having a heart anymore would reduce poisons effect if not make it worthless. Yes I made "pure magic" up, the only fact from the devs is his "nature as the science of balance allows him to survive", but theres no physical force at work keeping his body up and running, the heart of darknes was what revived him as a vampire and kept him up and running, without it physically he should be dead but Kain seems to be able to ignore many rules. I dont know about that, I dont know if he still needs blood or not, without a heart logic suggests no, considering the heart is the foundation of the vampires physical life I cant see how he would need any physical needs like blood anymore. Wheres this blood going to go? through his mouth and then just sit uselessly in the hole in his chest or something...

How is breathing a flame comparable to a pisonic heat and pressure detonation that kain was under the effects of at his weakest? The pressure is equel to sending small blocks a few meters away, thats next to nothing compared to what Kains taken. Not sure if thats a feat for heat, but ime sure youll find some evidence on this, if it was that hot the coral would not burn for a second or two.

They fear them but thats too vague to say they cant regen from it, most occasions of canon Raziel uses fire the target creatures are nothing on kains level and burn to death through conflragration, also in SR1 its proven either the fire itself or the air in the atmosphere from Kains machines has made it more flammable since large blocks of wood burns away in seconds as well. Zephon and Dumah are fairly weak compared to kain though.

Do we know this Dark bowser (your name or the games?) has anywhere near the strength? Also strength here is irrelevent since the energy he used to do the attack launched him into the air, the force on his return was his mass and gravity spreading force over several spikes.

I dont see anyone on games vs, let alone Kain being hit by Bowsers fire, their too slow or predictable and more importantly, we can still argue old kain was harmed by Magnus, not the new one who can take vast pressures.