Final Destination [Maximum] Vol.9 Bowser X Kain

Started by The Scenario21 pages
Originally posted by Burning thought
He lives without it because in the words of the devs "his nature as the scion of balance allows him to", nothing to do with vampirism. Also you just re-stated here, not countered, Kains chest was healed, not the heart of darkness restored and prove he still feeds on blood, that claim is impossible since his body has no physical requirements, not even the object of his life and soul anchor.

You're still not aswering the question: where is it said the heart is the base of the vampire's existence? Yes, Kain's chest was healed, do you have any reason to suspect he's still heartless? Even after Kain is revived he still needs blood to survive in gameplay. If they wanted to show he didn't they could have pulled a Soul Reaver 2 and made him not lose health.


Thats impressive? its just pressure, small amounts like a little explosion. He doesnt destroy brick though, it stays fairly solid, it seems he breaks the mortar between it. Hang on, "known weakness"? he can be destroyed as Blood omen 2 Kain by magnus, Magnus who blasting statues to piecies>>>knocking bricks from their mortar on a Kain whos so far below the one in this thread its laughable.

Same as Magnus, same thing that kills Kain. First of all, you're still clinging to a destruction animation which doesn't help you, since I've already shown you Bowser doing the same thing to metal pipes, and burning things underwater. Fire is a known weakness of all vampires, how can you still be denying this? Destroying bricks, metal, stone, coral, and fully grown trees, several times underwater > destroying stone. Kain will die.


No you didnt, show me this proof? you made the claim that apprently Bowser breaking stone was impressive...I countered by the fact Raziels pressure at his claws is vastly beyond this...

And you know as well as I do that Raziel can't destroy stone. He's pierced it several times and can kick it around, but he is totally unable to break any kind of stone. You fail to realize that Bowser's tanked stone breaking forces behind spikes, which are in turn far beyond Raziel.


In your case though the force Dark bowser jumps with is only enough to launch him a few meters in the air and fall down on Bowser, double his weight and youve got pressures probably barely enough to crush a car, if that.

False, you don't know how high he jumped since it was done offscreen. Further, you're ignoring Dark Bowser's ability to charge in mid air, which adds even more force. Also false, since Bowser doing the same has shown enough force to shatter several meters of stone, far, far greater than any car.


Their just removed from the game, you have no case to say what happened them. Your just assuming, your also looking too much into a gameplay constant no more important than pokemon shredding grass and trees, its just a method of moving through the world. You would have something if you had a cutscene of Bowser actually visually turnign a tree to ash.

They were on fire, you have no case to say they just disappeared. You're the one assuming that fire makes things just go away, in which I have no problem with Bowser just making Kain disappear in this manner.


It simply means he did not lose the ability to percieve and exist, thats it. Nothing there about stopping him from being dissolved by water or increasing his reisstance. Kain afaik never canonically falls in water and when he does in the gameplay he takes damage or turns into bats to avoid damage, its still canon and storyline that Dumahim lay in water for centuries and were still able to revive once it is removed. The fact is though, Kain has proven that removing the object of his life, even the primary object such as the heart of darkness does not destroy him or stop him hence why he is truly immortal.

Exactly, he would have ceased to exist. Or, in layman's terms, been dead. Because of the water. You're still denying that vampires are weak to water, just like fire, despite multiple examples and statements that they are. Remember Umah's warnings? "Water is dealy to vampires, and immersion in water can kill us," ring a bell? You should be taking the hint from game, Kain falling in water will ruin his day. BTW, you still haven't really proved that the heart is the object of life for vampires.


😆 too small, Mario bros go so far as to actually alter Bowsers functions and even amp him on several ocasions beyond his normal limits, being too small to do anything is a lie. Heated air? sit a meter or so from lava and then call it heated air, heated to the point where its still enough to sear flesh yet Kains mist is still surviving within heat far beyond Bowsers "brick mortar" busting fire 😄

Your plan is now to have Kain amping Bowser, congratulations. The Mario Bros. never could harm Bowser from where they were, even drilling into parts of his body did nothing. Everything they did to alter his functions were in specific places such as pressure points, and all of those ended up helping Bowser, not hurting him. Kain might amp Bowser by hitting the right spot. Heck, the Dark Star roaming around his body eating his DNA did nothing to hinder him. Air heated to the point where it's enough to sear flesh is still heated air. What else sears flesh? Fire does, that's for sure, so it'll be damaging Kain all the same.


What fire? show me Bowser doing fast fire because so far youve shown me fire thats takes seconds to do, even if its a breath. Yeh because Bowsers inhaled someone with as much strength and resistance as Kain before...oh wait...all he would achive is a reaver in the face followed by death.

Go back a few pages, I'm sure you'll find something, such as those he can launch continuously or the meteors. Why would the speed matter again? Kain's not that fast. Yeh, Bowser has inhaled something as heavy as Kain is, and that's all that matters. Bowser's getting a tasty treat, followed by gas.

i have spent all of my sick day from work reading this thread. and its been the same arguement from page 6 to 17. i have a few things to say.

the humans do use crude flamethrowers in soul reaver. ive been hit by them. they only reach a few feet out, though. and you can interrupt them by swiping a claw at them. and that thing the humans hold. its not an arbalest, its a crossbow. a crossbow uses tension from wood to launch a bolt. an arbalest uses tension from metal. ive explored the human sanctuary, and they have zero seige weapons in game. and the human culstists deal the same damage to raziel as the dumah-kin do when they swipe at him.

if you dont know why i added that, its because you can equate dumahs children to having strength equal to or in the same area as human strength. its not outside the stretch of reason or thought to assume that a human can impale a vampire. in EVERY vampire medium, thats been a staple means of killing them. (which exceptions to dracula himself) so i dont get why its even being debated, really.

and i highly doubt that raziels decayed and fragile body (who totally can get owned by his pasty human self in defiance) would be anywhere near as powerful as BT says. im honestly confused by him sometimes.

but i have to say.. when i first saw this thread i was all like;
"wtf could bowser do to kain? he cant even take care of a ****in plumber with hops!" but after seeing the sheer volume of clips and proof of what he can do.. i might just be picking bowser more when me and my friends play brawl. goddamn, scen... bravo. bravo on you, sir. ima have to give this fight to bowser.

Originally posted by Matthias Fenris
i have spent all of my sick day from work reading this thread. and its been the same arguement from page 6 to 17. i have a few things to say.

Then I gotta say I'm sorry you had to suffer through it, personally.


the humans do use crude flamethrowers in soul reaver. ive been hit by them. they only reach a few feet out, though. and you can interrupt them by swiping a claw at them. and that thing the humans hold. its not an arbalest, its a crossbow. a crossbow uses tension from wood to launch a bolt. an arbalest uses tension from metal. ive explored the human sanctuary, and they have zero seige weapons in game. and the human culstists deal the same damage to raziel as the dumah-kin do when they swipe at him.

I never really saw them in my playthrough, then. Granted, I went through it pretty fast and killed most of them before they could do anything. By this point I forget what this point was even about, was it the firing staffs from crossbows thing? 'Cause that's still total BS.


if you dont know why i added that, its because you can equate dumahs children to having strength equal to or in the same area as human strength. its not outside the stretch of reason or thought to assume that a human can impale a vampire. in EVERY vampire medium, thats been a staple means of killing them. (which exceptions to dracula himself) so i dont get why its even being debated, really.

Ehhh, damage values I consider questionable as measures of strength, but the Dumahim are the weakest of the clans. I don't see why the staking point was argued, either, we have a direct statement that says vampire hunters did it.


and i highly doubt that raziels decayed and fragile body (who totally can get owned by his pasty human self in defiance) would be anywhere near as powerful as BT says. im honestly confused by him sometimes.

Humans are a threat to Raziel and he gets one-hit KO'd constantly.
Guy's got no durability, but he actually is fairly strong, pushing those huge blocks around. His strength and the soul reaver are about all he has going for him.


but i have to say.. when i first saw this thread i was all like;
"wtf could bowser do to kain? he cant even take care of a ****in plumber with hops!" but after seeing the sheer volume of clips and proof of what he can do.. i might just be picking bowser more when me and my friends play brawl. goddamn, scen... bravo. bravo on you, sir. ima have to give this fight to bowser.

People always underestimate the plumber. Thanks, though.

no.. it fired bolts... maybe a foot long, at the most. and that suit they sometimes wore... its not mechanical. thats a suit of armor.

Originally posted by The Scenario

In Blood omen or Defiance we find the heart of darkness is the source of Kains life as a vampire. Its also shown on Janos Audren, rip his chest open and it hurts but he does not die until they remove his heart. Not sure this gameplay bit is worth answering, its gameplay, in theory you could probably not feed at all if you were a decent player between Kain losing his heart and beating the EG.

In BO2. Burning tihngs underwater does not prove much since what hes burning is still kelp which does not dissolve straight away and infact, often smashes like the pipes when he walks on them, if anything this entire "gameplay animation" is what your relying on, not me, I am just pointing out it works for me too. Because Water is also a known weakness but they can swim in it for what seemed to Raziel like an eternity and can lay in it for centuries albiet knocked out and still be revived. Your playing on the "weakness" part to claim its an instant kill. 😆 flora vs huge stone statues smashed into piecies? nah...not even close and no, Kain will not even feel it is my guess.

Erm wat? Define "destroy" stone, based on the calculations Raziel can create enough pressure to tear through anything on earth, including DIamond, stone is laughable.

So you admit we dont even know how far he jumped so you dont have any idea of the pressure from weight and this is a troll conversation. Several meters is arguable depending on the stone, some cars have quite heavy frames and titanium alloys making them.

But they did to our perception, your trying to give a canon or stroyline reason to something the devs just thought was fine to remove in the gameplay. Its like disapearing bodies in most games, they disapear after a while or straight away for frame rate issues, I dont sit there claiming that in Modern warfare my bullets turned them to dust from their power.

Indeed and hes proven there hes at least as durable as any Dumahim to water. No I am not denying that, only your delusion that it means the slightest touch kills them and you can claim as long as Bowser has fire Kains instantly defeated 🙄 , water takes ages to actually kill a vamp and even after centuries they can return. Also I cant belive your argueing the heart of darkness as the source of the vampiric unlife in Kain, its pretty clear by now you dont know LoK at all;

http://www.dark-chronicle.co.uk/az/heartofdarkness.php

read a bit of that. Kains only alive and a vamp because of it.

Where you getting all this from? heated air and nonsense, if the plumbers can live while inside why cant Kain? Further, the Bros did not smash up his brain and second, do not have half hte power of Kain nor do they have his sword.

If youve got nothing new then no, not a single fire attack he has is fast enough ot hit Kain generally, let alone mist form. Speed matters because if it takes seconds to reach Kain its useless and if you want to rely on those seconds on the mist form, doubly so. Erm no, not really because resistance is relevent as well. Unless he enjoys soul devouring metal, not really although its you and not bowser gas should be concerning, since your running out of it if your trying to argue the inhale.

Originally posted by Matthias Fenris

Youve used several gameplay mechanics here so I wont counter them but I will counter the crossbow thing, if youve even seen the weapons, their not alike to a crossbow tbh, more like a spear gun, weve been through this.

Its being debated because if they were so easy to impale, Raziel would do it with his claws or better yet, slice them into piecies, he has the pressure equivalent of the earths core multiplied by 3 at his claw tips. Explain if a human can easily do it, why cant Raziel just use his hands?

Not sure I said Raziels body was durable, its strong and powerful though, theres a lot more there than "frayed and fragile", but you probably have not played the games if you think thats as far as it goes.

Maybe you can argue scenes evidence better than he can then, it would be more interesting for me no doubt or is this just hollow chatter to boost someone on your side of the fence?

uhh.. have you played soul reaver recently? *holds up his copy* the crossbows actually look alot like this.
http://www.computersmiths.com/chineseinvention/images/xbowrepeating.jpg
seeing as how all you see is a handle they hold, the wooden bow, and the big box that makes up the core of the design. and the overall weapon isnt longer than the humans arm. as is evident from your own video. and gameplay. theres no physical way weapons that sized can fire spear-sized projectiles. its just too far fetched. and sense when does a spear gun have a wooden cross section? they really dont. crossbows do.

and how are you getting pressure equivalent to the earths core for raziel's strenth? O_o..dude had to eat zephons soul just to dig those claws into walls and CLIMB. (slowly, i might add) and if he had that kind of strength, he would've one shot every human in the game. which he cant. granted, they're easier to drop than vampires, because they dont regen health. but he still has to hit them alot.

Originally posted by Matthias Fenris
uhh.. have you played soul reaver recently? *holds up his copy* the crossbows actually look alot like this.
http://www.computersmiths.com/chineseinvention/images/xbowrepeating.jpg
seeing as how all you see is a handle they hold, the wooden bow, and the big box that makes up the core of the design. and the overall weapon isnt longer than the humans arm. as is evident from your own video. and gameplay. theres no physical way weapons that sized can fire spear-sized projectiles. its just too far fetched. and sense when does a spear gun have a wooden cross section? they really dont. crossbows do.

and how are you getting pressure equivalent to the earths core for raziel's strenth? O_o..dude had to eat zephons soul just to dig those claws into walls and CLIMB. (slowly, i might add) and if he had that kind of strength, he would've one shot every human in the game. which he cant. granted, they're easier to drop than vampires, because they dont regen health. but he still has to hit them alot.

I have not played it recently but if youve read the thread weve been going over it in video form for pages. The weapons they use do not look like your image, I could have sworn I posted a screenshot of the weapon close up somewhere in this thread, maybe not.

Spearguns fire spears longer than themselves, theres also no physical way a lot of things in LoK work. Show me the "cross" on this weapon in the game please, I dont recall it looking alike to a crossbow at all.

3x the earths core pressure, and its pressure at the end of his claws. Its been calculated in the maths thread and hes been digging his claws into objects long before that, hes just gained the Zephahim ability to walk on walls. Theres no canon moment in the game where he hits a human and does not kill it, your bringing up gameplay mechanics again. If we used gameplay mechanic logic most of these characters would be weaker than a human in strength considering the time it takes for them to kill enemies with their magically enhanced weapons and powers inluding Kratos, Dante and possibly Bay.

how is that math calculated? O_o... ive played through every game that features raziel, and ive NEVER seen a feat that can match that statistic. seriously, who math'd that up? i'd like to see where they got the on hand data to come up with that number. because it honestly sounds like someones pulling it out of their ass.

http://discountdivers.com/pix/metseries.jpg
spearguns. its not longer than the gun. O_o. look at the stock. look at how little of the spear juts out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNEXhg8rGBI&feature=related
pause at 2:07. O_o...handle on the left. gray cross section on the right.
crossbow. the first two human knights you see are holding the flame throwers. plus, when they SHOOT you with it.. it fires small forearm-sized projectiles. go back and play the game again.

Originally posted by Burning thought
In Blood omen or Defiance we find the heart of darkness is the source of Kains life as a vampire. Its also shown on Janos Audren, rip his chest open and it hurts but he does not die until they remove his heart. Not sure this gameplay bit is worth answering, its gameplay, in theory you could probably not feed at all if you were a decent player between Kain losing his heart and beating the EG.

And if you remember, Janos Audron actually manages to stay alive for several minutes while he discusses things with Raziel. Though I'll also point out that Janos was overpowered by four humans at most. Kain still loses health, however, at his normal rate. Whereas when Raziel got his super special immortal scene he got infinite health and never loses it over time.


In BO2. Burning tihngs underwater does not prove much since what hes burning is still kelp which does not dissolve straight away and infact, often smashes like the pipes when he walks on them, if anything this entire "gameplay animation" is what your relying on, not me, I am just pointing out it works for me too. Because Water is also a known weakness but they can swim in it for what seemed to Raziel like an eternity and can lay in it for centuries albiet knocked out and still be revived. Your playing on the "weakness" part to claim its an instant kill. 😆 flora vs huge stone statues smashed into piecies? nah...not even close and no, Kain will not even feel it is my guess.

It is a "destroyed" animation that plays when Bowser breathes fire on things. Ergo, they were destroyed by fire. Just like Magnus, who murders Kain with the same trick. Bowser is still burning objects underwater, he is still destroying several meters of brick and metal with fire breath, and this is all still just as good as or better than Magnus, who I feel I must point out a second time can kill Kain instantly. Yes, when vampires fall into water they instantly die and their soul pops out like any other death except fire, which incidentally happen to destroy said soul. You're trying to use Raziel, who was saved by the Elder God, as an example of how all vampires react to water. Can you not see the flaw in that?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I28hIOSJbMs#t=5m

Oh, look, water will still dissolve Raziel's physical body.


Erm wat? Define "destroy" stone, based on the calculations Raziel can create enough pressure to tear through anything on earth, including DIamond, stone is laughable.

Shatter it into pieces with a blunt attack. You realize Bowser also has claws, as well as spikes, with this stone crushing force behind them? To break it down further, you're relying on the pressure that Raziel can produce on the tips on his claws in order to equal something that Bowser does casually with the huge surface area of his fist, as well as his massive stomach. Consider, then, what Bowser can do with the tips of his spikes or claws, when his blunt surfaces are matching Raziel's destructive potential.


So you admit we dont even know how far he jumped so you dont have any idea of the pressure from weight and this is a troll conversation. Several meters is arguable depending on the stone, some cars have quite heavy frames and titanium alloys making them.

Nope, that appear to be you crying "troll" on everything I say for whatever reason. Now, what I'm actually saying is that the height doesn't matter, since Bowser is already known to crush several meters of stone by jumping, at best, 2 meters into the air. Specifically, the 10 meters or so seen here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CN8G7rozbNM#t=3m25s

(I got youtube to work again, yay.)


But they did to our perception, your trying to give a canon or stroyline reason to something the devs just thought was fine to remove in the gameplay. Its like disapearing bodies in most games, they disapear after a while or straight away for frame rate issues, I dont sit there claiming that in Modern warfare my bullets turned them to dust from their power.

I need a canon story reason to prove that setting trees on fire burns them now? Look, there is a very simple way of understanding this: You have a tree growing between two rocks, which block your progress between said rocks. You burn this tree. It has now been reduced to such a state as it no longer impedes your progress. While normally a burned tree would just sort of sit there as a blackened husk that still blocks progress, this one has been reduced enough so that you can between between the rocks. As in there's not enough left of the tree to block you. The purpose of the fire breath is to get rid of trees. You are trying to claim what here? As best I can figure, your argument is that the tree would still be there canonically, despite the fact that you must pass through an area that was canonically occupied by said tree.


Indeed and hes proven there hes at least as durable as any Dumahim to water. No I am not denying that, only your delusion that it means the slightest touch kills them and you can claim as long as Bowser has fire Kains instantly defeated 🙄 , water takes ages to actually kill a vamp and even after centuries they can return. Also I cant belive your argueing the heart of darkness as the source of the vampiric unlife in Kain, its pretty clear by now you dont know LoK at all;

http://www.dark-chronicle.co.uk/az/heartofdarkness.php

read a bit of that. Kains only alive and a vamp because of it.

Who has? Kain still turns to bats because he's afraid of water, Raziel was protected and still ended up a gaunt, jawless wraith, and Dumahim and Turelim still die instantly upon falling into water (the slightest touch kills them, in other words), losing their souls in the process. Then you have the statements of water being deadly and immersion fatal to deal with. It does not take ages, the Raziel example is fundamentally flawed.Why is it that your first instinct when I disagree with you is that I'm trolling and the second that I know nothing of LoK? I know Mortanius used the Heart of Darkness to turn Kain into a vampire, what you have yet to actually prove is that it is the basis for everything that makes him a vampire and/or the source of his powers. If that were true he'd have lost his powers as soon as it was removed from him. Your claim that Kain is "truly immortal" because he survives without the primary source of his power falls flat because you haven't proved that the Heart of Darkness actually keeps him a vampire, or is the source of his power. It brought him to life, and that's it. Hell, Magnus survived with his organs spilling from the half-a-torso he was running around with.


Where you getting all this from? heated air and nonsense, if the plumbers can live while inside why cant Kain? Further, the Bros did not smash up his brain and second, do not have half hte power of Kain nor do they have his sword.

You know what the Mario Bros. have that Kain doesn't? Resistant to water and fire. Bowser's insides are, predictably, very wet, and contain multiple cell-monsters that are watery in nature, and several more made of fire, in addition to those made of poison. Kain will be facing a very different set of obstacles that the ones that Mario and Luigi faced, and this is due entirely to the fact that Kain is weak to water and fire, both of which are inside Bowser. Heck, there are areas that rain juices which can heal the Bros. but would hurt Kain.


If youve got nothing new then no, not a single fire attack he has is fast enough ot hit Kain generally, let alone mist form. Speed matters because if it takes seconds to reach Kain its useless and if you want to rely on those seconds on the mist form, doubly so. Erm no, not really because resistance is relevent as well. Unless he enjoys soul devouring metal, not really although its you and not bowser gas should be concerning, since your running out of it if your trying to argue the inhale.

Except that Kain is not actually that fast. Why you are assuming he can dodge anything and everything is a mystery. Several of those attacks take less than a second to begind and can be kep up indefinitely, while other have a few seconds charging but thereafter allow continuous, near instant blasts. Not to mention the huge blast radii of quite a few. Since Kain takes damage just being near lava, fire should destroy him even in mist form. Bowser's inhale has, in fact, affected targets larger and heavier than Kain, including things with the ability to fly. Kain's strength would be meaningless once he was in the air and he's be shrunk to a tiny size as he reached Bowser's mouth. Not much Kain can really do.


Its being debated because if they were so easy to impale, Raziel would do it with his claws or better yet, slice them into piecies, he has the pressure equivalent of the earths core multiplied by 3 at his claw tips. Explain if a human can easily do it, why cant Raziel just use his hands?

Would you like me to re-post the video of Raziel slicing one of them to pieces?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I28hIOSJbMs#t=6m53s

Raziel cuts them easily, the problem is that they regenerate. The humans impaling them on staffs solves this problem, because they can't regenerate from that.

i don't have a say in this thread, but would just like to say that scenario is the GOAT.

Originally posted by The Scenario

So? it still kills him, Janos is weak so your missing the point and re-watch the scene he was not just overpowered by humans, tehy had moebius' staff. What are you even talking about? super immortal scene? where? unless your refering to the reaver which Kain alos has, you rely too much on the gameplay mechanics to back you here, how much Kains health bar goes down, really? 🙄

You seem to be trolling me here, youve not said anyhing new or tried to counter, just re-stated nonsense over and over. Your ignoring things you dont like. You got that from gameplay, an actual cutscene says otherwise for Raziel and death by fire sends the soul straight to spectoral. Raziel was supposedly revived by someone, possibly the Elder God, theres still no evidence on resistance to water as Raziel burns like any vampire, the fact he got up after the burning is what your talking about which does not counter the fact Vamps can last ages in water.

Oh look, a video we have seen countless times and does not prove anything new.

I realise Bowser has claws, claws you have yet to show me slashing his shell, until you do, his max durability feat on his shell is double his bodyweight on spikes+gravity, thats it. His blunt surfaces dont match Raziels potential, the breaking point of stone is not even close to what Raziel can deliver, the fact he doesnt go around punching stone is irrelevent, if you add up the values on the surface area of a fist for Raziel, you still get more than enough to break stone. Breaking stone is a joke compared to Raziels level, I am surprised your trying to use it as impressive.

😆 your still baseing your argument on him breaking stone with his bodyweight, stone being one of the weaker materials argued here.

I am saying your using gameplay animation and destruction graphics which you whined about me using in the last post to convey canon. Theres no canon concerning that tree 🙄 , as I said, you would have a feat if we could actually see it, what happens to the tree is ambigious enough to make it useless as an argument.

No if that were true, on a physical level he would have lost his power but because hes the scion of balance as the developers point out, he can avoid such things, their beneath him as is death. The heart of darkness is what raises him, tearing it out should have killed him like it would kill any vampire including Janos. Your now trying to claim all vampires can walk around without organs now, not even their hearts? 😆 good luck proving that....again, your trolling.

How do you know it hurts Kain, you said juices like you dont know its actually water. Also youve mentioned some monsters, that it. Kains no more weak to fire than a human is and no more worried of water than a weak acid on a human, the fact he has a ridciulous healing factor means any time he spends burning in water will be healed anyway, especially since he has the reaver.

Because I have seen the attacks Bowser uses and their so slow, I could probably dodge most of them. 😆 just because he takes damage from lava? fire automatically which is far colder can defeat him? this is a joke right or just poor logic? Again trolling, Bowsers never swallowed someone so strong or fast, infact I have yet to see much effort put up by anyone to avoid their fate.

Also Kain kills bowser with a TK blast to the eyes, blinds him and then impales the fat lizard, I dont know why I waste my time argueing what Kain has to avoid when he can not only avoid easily but kill Bowser far easier than Bowser can him.

Wow I dont remember that cutscene good fine scne....oh wait thats gameplay, shit you almost had me fooled! damn! 😆 I dont know about humans, never seen it tbh but I imagine impaling into the heart, being the primary organ for a vamp if Kains anything to go by would be a bypass to regen.

Originally posted by Matthias Fenris
how is that math calculated? O_o... ive played through every game that features raziel, and ive NEVER seen a feat that can match that statistic. seriously, who math'd that up? i'd like to see where they got the on hand data to come up with that number. because it honestly sounds like someones pulling it out of their ass.

http://discountdivers.com/pix/metseries.jpg
spearguns. its not longer than the gun. O_o. look at the stock. look at how little of the spear juts out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNEXhg8rGBI&feature=related
pause at 2:07. O_o...handle on the left. gray cross section on the right.
crossbow. the first two human knights you see are holding the flame throwers. plus, when they SHOOT you with it.. it fires small forearm-sized projectiles. go back and play the game again.

Look in the math thread and argue with Dadumon, morridini and Bloodrain if you like over that math specifically.

Go into wiki and look up spear guns, the spears are typically longer than the gun itself, the gun itself also looks more like a spear gun.

It looks like a spear gun with a knife on the end, it looks too bulky for a crossbow and too long and the actual "cross" is not present which should be the main defining feature.

are... are you blind? and did you just argue kain has regen when in ALL of the games hes in, he needs to feed to heal himself?

and you seriously just tried to make a statement that said raziel wasnt revived by the elder god? even though its kind of the corner stone of the entire series of games that involve raziel?

and really.. i showed you real pictures of real spearguns. come on. and seriously. go back and play soul reaver again. kill the first human you see. and get you way to either the human citadel, or melchia's area. and try to tell me they're firing full-sized spears out of those guns.

and a speargun with a knife on the end. a knife thats going across the gun, and not pointing out like a bayonette should? too bulky? O_o. if you look at crossbow designs over the history of human warfare, and look at those in game weapons, its not a stretch of logic to say "its an ammo magazine, so they're not reloading arrows after each shot" which makes it a pretty good vampire-fighting weapon, really. if they die to impalement. why not be able to impale them multiple times?

and i would just LOVE for you to link that math thread. this requires investigation. because quite frankly, some of the stats you pull are incredibly far fetched. 9 million tons of force... dude. the hulk cant even match that kind of power. ill be back after i see this math.
oh, and.. hey scen, you'll love this..
http://www.cracked.com/article_19468_5-logical-fallacies-that-make-you-wrong-more-than-you-think.html

Originally posted by Matthias Fenris
are... are you blind? and did you just argue kain has regen when in ALL of the games hes in, he needs to feed to heal himself?

and you seriously just tried to make a statement that said raziel wasnt revived by the elder god? even though its kind of the corner stone of the entire series of games that involve raziel?

and really.. i showed you real pictures of real spearguns. come on. and seriously. go back and play soul reaver again. kill the first human you see. and get you way to either the human citadel, or melchia's area. and try to tell me they're firing full-sized spears out of those guns.

and a speargun with a knife on the end. a knife thats going across the gun, and not pointing out like a bayonette should? too bulky? O_o. if you look at crossbow designs over the history of human warfare, and look at those in game weapons, its not a stretch of logic to say "its an ammo magazine, so they're not reloading arrows after each shot" which makes it a pretty good vampire-fighting weapon, really. if they die to impalement. why not be able to impale them multiple times?

and i would just LOVE for you to link that math thread. this requires investigation. because quite frankly, some of the stats you pull are incredibly far fetched. 9 million tons of force... dude. the hulk cant even match that kind of power. ill be back after i see this math.
oh, and.. hey scen, you'll love this..
http://www.cracked.com/article_19468_5-logical-fallacies-that-make-you-wrong-more-than-you-think.html

No, my eye sight is excellent, good enough to fly a plane and I dont know about all the games but since Soul reaver era definatly.

If you played the game, you know Raziel himself doubts the Elder did anything and was just coincidently there at his revival so it seems theres cracks in your Lok knowledge, thought so. Its no fact the Elder God revived or even influenced what brought him back.

An ammo magazine comes more in line with a speargun, this being in the future is clearly an inovative design with a magazine. I have never knwon a crossbow which has an auto loader hence why I doubt its a crossbow because part of a x-bow is loading and pulling back the mechanism.

Game math=

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=551917&highlight=math+forumid%3A66

And the Kain respect thread, also I think hulk can create the "force" but he would probably need to be looking into high end feats ot be creating equel pressure to Raziels claws. Then again, I dont read comics so you can keep that comment to yourself and use in-game characters.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f100/t470105.html

Originally posted by Burning thought
So? it still kills him, Janos is weak so your missing the point and re-watch the scene he was not just overpowered by humans, tehy had moebius' staff. What are you even talking about? super immortal scene? where? unless your refering to the reaver which Kain alos has, you rely too much on the gameplay mechanics to back you here, how much Kains health bar goes down, really? 🙄

Oh, so you mean Janos' vampire powers were being canceled out there? You're not helping the "heart = source" argument with that, you know. And yes, I'm talking about Raziel with the physical Reaver, he got to have non-depleting health, so Kain not getting the same indicates he still needed blood.


You seem to be trolling me here, youve not said anyhing new or tried to counter, just re-stated nonsense over and over. Your ignoring things you dont like. You got that from gameplay, an actual cutscene says otherwise for Raziel and death by fire sends the soul straight to spectoral. Raziel was supposedly revived by someone, possibly the Elder God, theres still no evidence on resistance to water as Raziel burns like any vampire, the fact he got up after the burning is what your talking about which does not counter the fact Vamps can last ages in water.

Oh look, a video we have seen countless times and does not prove anything new.

You seem to be crying "troll!" a lot here, as well as making personal attacks. Hey, you know what I got from cutscenes? The Elder God stating he saved Raziel, and the Elder God also stating that Raziel's physical body would dissolve in water, plus Raziel stating water kills vampires, plus Umah stating water kills vampires, plus several instances of dead vampires in water. So I've got 5 counts of evidence to your 1, and you say I'm the one ignoring things? Watch the cutscene again, then, Raziel dies after a few second, him saying itfelt like ages does mean it actually took ages. I can bring up the Turelim dying instantly in water, too, if you like.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3etJ2cS_QUk#t=1m5s

Oops that's not ages.


I realise Bowser has claws, claws you have yet to show me slashing his shell, until you do, his max durability feat on his shell is double his bodyweight on spikes+gravity, thats it. His blunt surfaces dont match Raziels potential, the breaking point of stone is not even close to what Raziel can deliver, the fact he doesnt go around punching stone is irrelevent, if you add up the values on the surface area of a fist for Raziel, you still get more than enough to break stone. Breaking stone is a joke compared to Raziels level, I am surprised your trying to use it as impressive.

I hope you realize you're asking for Bowser's claws hitting Bowser's shell, please think about that for a moment. And no, once again, you are ignoring that Bowser andDark Bowser can add even more force than just gravity. Raziel can only pierce stone, not break it, because he's only hitting a tiny fraction of it. Bowser shatters it with blunt attacks, so when he uses spikes his overall pressure would be much greater than Raziel's, so I'm not sure how you're missing this point.


😆 your still baseing your argument on him breaking stone with his bodyweight, stone being one of the weaker materials argued here.

You're still missing the point. See above. Raziel can't compare, what has he done that matches this?


I am saying your using gameplay animation and destruction graphics which you whined about me using in the last post to convey canon. Theres no canon concerning that tree 🙄 , as I said, you would have a feat if we could actually see it, what happens to the tree is ambigious enough to make it useless as an argument.

What are you talking about? Also, required gameplay, Bowser cannot progress unless he gets rid of those trees, they are a canon obstacle and Bowser's canon solution is fire breath. It's more than enough for a feat, Bowser is getting rid of entire trees in a manner of seconds.


No if that were true, on a physical level he would have lost his power but because hes the scion of balance as the developers point out, he can avoid such things, their beneath him as is death. The heart of darkness is what raises him, tearing it out should have killed him like it would kill any vampire including Janos. Your now trying to claim all vampires can walk around without organs now, not even their hearts? 😆 good luck proving that....again, your trolling.

[Citation needed]

The heart of darkness raised him, you need to prove that it's the only thing keeping him that way for your argument to work. By the way, here is a picture of Magnus that proves my claim:

Again, you're accusing me of trolling because I disagree with you.


How do you know it hurts Kain, you said juices like you dont know its actually water. Also youve mentioned some monsters, that it. Kains no more weak to fire than a human is and no more worried of water than a weak acid on a human, the fact he has a ridciulous healing factor means any time he spends burning in water will be healed anyway, especially since he has the reaver.

I never thought I would have to explain to someone that juice consists mostly of water, yet here we are. Would you have preferred me to use the word "sweat" because that's what another character refers to it as? In any case, Bowser's body does contain quite a bit of water and water based cell-like enemies. No, Kain, by virtue of being a vampire, is more than vulnerable to fire. You know this. Also, prove that last claim, I don't think I've ever seen Kain display a healing factor, much less use it in water, his weakness.


Because I have seen the attacks Bowser uses and their so slow, I could probably dodge most of them. 😆 just because he takes damage from lava? fire automatically which is far colder can defeat him? this is a joke right or just poor logic? Again trolling, Bowsers never swallowed someone so strong or fast, infact I have yet to see much effort put up by anyone to avoid their fate.

Yes, you know as well as I do that vampires in LoK are extremely vulnerable to fire, and Bowser's fire has displayed heat to put it above the air near lava. Again, baseless accusations, it hardly matters how much of a fight Kain puts up since his strength and speed don't matter in mid air.


Also Kain kills bowser with a TK blast to the eyes, blinds him and then impales the fat lizard, I dont know why I waste my time argueing what Kain has to avoid when he can not only avoid easily but kill Bowser far easier than Bowser can him.

I would use the [citation needed] joke again, but it might get old. Instead, I'll just say you have not proved anything you just said, and that I expect you to do so immediately. Have fun.


Wow I dont remember that cutscene good fine scne....oh wait thats gameplay, shit you almost had me fooled! damn! 😆 I dont know about humans, never seen it tbh but I imagine impaling into the heart, being the primary organ for a vamp if Kains anything to go by would be a bypass to regen.

You know, last time I checked that applied only to mechanics. Gameplay by itself is actually a pretty good indicator, and as such we know Raziel can harm Dumahim with claws, but they just regenerate. We also know any impalement stops vampire regeneration because of the statements and in game evidence.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Oh, so you mean Janos' vampire powers were being canceled out there? You're not helping the "heart = source" argument with that, you know. And yes, I'm talking about Raziel with the physical Reaver, he got to have non-depleting health, so Kain not getting the same indicates he still needed blood.

You seem to be crying "troll!" a lot here, as well as making personal attacks. Hey, you know what I got from cutscenes? The Elder God stating he saved Raziel, and the Elder God also stating that Raziel's physical body would dissolve in water, plus Raziel stating water kills vampires, plus Umah stating water kills vampires, plus several instances of dead vampires in water. So I've got 5 counts of evidence to your 1, and you say I'm the one ignoring things? Watch the cutscene again, then, Raziel dies after a few second, him saying it[b]felt like ages does mean it actually took ages. I can bring up the Turelim dying instantly in water, too, if you like.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3etJ2cS_QUk#t=1m5s

Oops that's not ages.

I hope you realize you're asking for Bowser's claws hitting Bowser's shell, please think about that for a moment. And no, once again, you are ignoring that Bowser andDark Bowser can add even more force than just gravity. Raziel can only pierce stone, not break it, because he's only hitting a tiny fraction of it. Bowser shatters it with blunt attacks, so when he uses spikes his overall pressure would be much greater than Raziel's, so I'm not sure how you're missing this point.

You're still missing the point. See above. Raziel can't compare, what has he done that matches this?

What are you talking about? Also, required gameplay, Bowser cannot progress unless he gets rid of those trees, they are a canon obstacle and Bowser's canon solution is fire breath. It's more than enough for a feat, Bowser is getting rid of entire trees in a manner of seconds.

[Citation needed]

The heart of darkness raised him, you need to prove that it's the only thing keeping him that way for your argument to work. By the way, here is a picture of Magnus that proves my claim:

Again, you're accusing me of trolling because I disagree with you.

I never thought I would have to explain to someone that juice consists mostly of water, yet here we are. Would you have preferred me to use the word "sweat" because that's what another character refers to it as? In any case, Bowser's body does contain quite a bit of water and water based cell-like enemies. No, Kain, by virtue of being a vampire, is more than vulnerable to fire. You know this. Also, prove that last claim, I don't think I've ever seen Kain display a healing factor, much less use it in water, his weakness.

Yes, you know as well as I do that vampires in LoK are extremely vulnerable to fire, and Bowser's fire has displayed heat to put it above the air near lava. Again, baseless accusations, it hardly matters how much of a fight Kain puts up since his strength and speed don't matter in mid air.

I would use the [citation needed] joke again, but it might get old. Instead, I'll just say you have not proved anything you just said, and that I expect you to do so immediately. Have fun.

You know, last time I checked that applied only to mechanics. Gameplay by itself is actually a pretty good indicator, and as such we know Raziel can harm Dumahim with claws, but they just regenerate. We also know any impalement stops vampire regeneration because of the statements and in game evidence. [/B]

The moebius orb seems to cancel out anything a vampie can do and goes for the heart hence why Kain couldnt do anything to moebius while under its power and Janos was completly helpess, Vorador has to stand for beheading, even though he can teleport and turn into mist or break wood with ease. It indicates that at that time the devs thought giving Raz that power was an interesting bonus, Kains been wielding the same weapon since the beginning of Defiance and its not changed since then but he was not invincible in the game, your using gameplay mechanics and health bars, how devs designed them or what factors they change is irrelevent canonically tbh.

I dont make personal attacks as for pointing out trolling, its pretty obvious, your just spamming what weve already gone through. It did dissolve in water, hence why he was tumbling and burning, but the same way the Dumahim can just get up as soon as water is not on them and return to their bodies, Raziels body stands strong as well. Youve got rough statements of vampires killing vampires which I never said was wrong, you just have nothing canon to state how long it takes compared to at least 2 accounts of how long it takes from me. And thats gameplay animation but also we dont see him die, just burning up in the water.

Erm no, again shatterin stone is not greater than Raziels pressure, the max strength of stone is thousands of pascals, Raziels pressure is in the billions, rock is not strong at all.

Create enough pressure to equel the core of our plunt triple times over ,the core that crushes an enormous ball of iron, sediment, rock and hundreds of other things into a compact ball.

Hes burning them and they disapear, thats it. You cant prove anything here though.

I have just shown you the vampires heart is the source with Janos, who died without his heart, wheres your evidence to suggest regular vamps or Kain can survive without a heart if he was not the scion of balance? your not making any sense, Kain himself is surprised hes alive and the heart raised him, the fact its the source of vampire unlife sort of makes it the reason Kain is a vampire, what was your funny interpretation? the heart is a coincidence or something?

Whats that picture prove exactly? the guy still has his heart by the looks of it, he just has his chest flesh ripped off revealing the muscle....this actually backs up my claims because if a vampires physical body was relevent at all, the heart is the only thing so far we can identify as affecting them, impalement covers this too as does burning....yet here we have a Magnus who survives with his brain exposed.

So your now claiming anything with water in it harms Kain? what? water is the weakness, you could argue blood no doubt has some water in it at some level....

Yes because vampires generally have a healing factor but Kain, the lord of vampires is the only one who doesnt? again, your trolling me.

Were getting to the stage where I ignore you again because your just insulting me or mocking me here, next your probably going to ask for things like Kain being able to survivie drinking blood or other ridiculous things.

I dont see a counter to my points in the next few lines. As I said, vamps cant live without their heart, being staked ruins that unless the impalement is removed. We know raziel can create planetary core pressur on his claws as well, yet apprently humans can slice through the whole Dumahim body with a pointed weapon but Raziel cant with his claws, logically Raziel should be able to just bisect them but he cant use his claws to beat them.

Originally posted by Burning thought
The moebius orb seems to cancel out anything a vampie can do and goes for the heart hence why Kain couldnt do anything to moebius while under its power and Janos was completly helpess, Vorador has to stand for beheading, even though he can teleport and turn into mist or break wood with ease. It indicates that at that time the devs thought giving Raz that power was an interesting bonus, Kains been wielding the same weapon since the beginning of Defiance and its not changed since then but he was not invincible in the game, your using gameplay mechanics and health bars, how devs designed them or what factors they change is irrelevent canonically tbh.

By your arguement it should kill them instantly, then. Or, the heart of darkness isn't as great as you think it is. You still just don't have any evidence that says Kain is unkillable or immune to poison.


I dont make personal attacks as for pointing out trolling, its pretty obvious, your just spamming what weve already gone through. It did dissolve in water, hence why he was tumbling and burning, but the same way the Dumahim can just get up as soon as water is not on them and return to their bodies, Raziels body stands strong as well. Youve got rough statements of vampires killing vampires which I never said was wrong, you just have nothing canon to state how long it takes compared to at least 2 accounts of how long it takes from me. And thats gameplay animation but also we dont see him die, just burning up in the water.

I still have 5 counts of evidence to your 1, and nothing you said can change this. Further, you seem to have glossed over that what Raziel feels is not necessarily reality. Take a hint from the game, pretty much any vampire dies instantly on contact with water, your only counterexample is someone who was protected.


Erm no, again shatterin stone is not greater than Raziels pressure, the max strength of stone is thousands of pascals, Raziels pressure is in the billions, rock is not strong at all.

Create enough pressure to equel the core of our plunt triple times over ,the core that crushes an enormous ball of iron, sediment, rock and hundreds of other things into a compact ball.

Pay attention; I did not say that Raziel's pressure could not break stone. No, I pointed out that Raziel's blunt attacks cannot break stone. Bowser's blunt > Raziel's blunt, therefore Bowser's sharp would be > Raziel's sharp. This is simple.


Hes burning them and they disapear, thats it. You cant prove anything here though.

But my arguement is that Bowser burns Kain and he disappears, that more than proves it. Seriously, though, Bowser canonically burns down trees in order to progress. You can't deny this, so stop trying.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vt1VNEWl9I0#t=4m48s


I have just shown you the vampires heart is the source with Janos, who died without his heart, wheres your evidence to suggest regular vamps or Kain can survive without a heart if he was not the scion of balance? your not making any sense, Kain himself is surprised hes alive and the heart raised him, the fact its the source of vampire unlife sort of makes it the reason Kain is a vampire, what was your funny interpretation? the heart is a coincidence or something?

Janos' heart was removed while his powers were being removed, you don't have that much of a case, honestly. I just think you trying to claim that Kain is immune to poison when he's still a vampire that feeds on blood is faulty.


Whats that picture prove exactly? the guy still has his heart by the looks of it, he just has his chest flesh ripped off revealing the muscle....this actually backs up my claims because if a vampires physical body was relevent at all, the heart is the only thing so far we can identify as affecting them, impalement covers this too as does burning....yet here we have a Magnus who survives with his brain exposed.

Not even close to my original point being a vampire's vulnerability to poison. Vampires have been killed without being impale in the heart, though, so try again.


So your now claiming anything with water in it harms Kain? what? water is the weakness, you could argue blood no doubt has some water in it at some level....

Indeed, it's a terrible, terrible weakness to have when you're inside someone. I'd say that Kain probably would not enjoy being completely immersed in blood.


Yes because vampires generally have a healing factor but Kain, the lord of vampires is the only one who doesnt? again, your trolling me.

"Yes because vampires are generally weak to water, fire, impalement, and poison but Kain, the lord of vampires is the only one who isn't? Again, your double standard shows itself." Kain hasn't actually been shown to have a healing factor, I see no reason to let him have one just because other vampires do if you're going to turn around and say he's immune to all vampire weaknesses. Being fair sucks, doesn't it?


Were getting to the stage where I ignore you again because your just insulting me or mocking me here, next your probably going to ask for things like Kain being able to survivie drinking blood or other ridiculous things.

Are you dodging the evidence request? Nice try, but not how debates work, you still need to prove:
-Kain's resistance to fire
-Kain's resistance to water
-Kain's resistance to poison
-That Kain can do anything in mid air
-That Kain's TK is powerful enough to lift Bowser, much less harm any part of him
-Kain's physical strength, and whether than is enough to harm Bowser

Until you actually back up your claims, you have no right to ignore anyone.


I dont see a counter to my points in the next few lines. As I said, vamps cant live without their heart, being staked ruins that unless the impalement is removed. We know raziel can create planetary core pressur on his claws as well, yet apprently humans can slice through the whole Dumahim body with a pointed weapon but Raziel cant with his claws, logically Raziel should be able to just bisect them but he cant use his claws to beat them.

As you already admitted, however, you seem to be ignoring me. I assume that extends to my points. First off, no one claimed that Raziel is unable to cut Dumahim, because he clearly can. The fact, however, is that Dumahim regenerate, which prevents Raziel's shallow cuts from killing them. Logically, Raziel's claws are only a few inches long, not nearly enough to bisect anything. The human bypass the regeneration with stakes, it is really that simple.

Originally posted by Matthias Fenris
and i would just LOVE for you to link that math thread. this requires investigation. because quite frankly, some of the stats you pull are incredibly far fetched. 9 million tons of force... dude. the hulk cant even match that kind of power. ill be back after i see this math.
oh, and.. hey scen, you'll love this..
http://www.cracked.com/article_19468_5-logical-fallacies-that-make-you-wrong-more-than-you-think.html

Missed this the first time. To summarize BT's "9 million tons" argument, it's actually based on a sharp point. Raziel is maybe a 100 tonner at best, but BT focuses on the very tips of his claws, where the pressure that Raziel produces is multiplied by the small surface area. A normal guy with a knife can produce similarly huge sounding numbers, but it just means sharp things cut better.

Nice article, Cracked is awesome. Wish they could do something with this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

The heart of darkness is the source of life, its gone, they die. Unless your Kain, then he can live by his very nature, nothing to do with physical means. Bowser has no means to bypass this nor submission Kain, e.g. completly destroy his body.

You ignored me again, rude.

What do you base this on? because I dont recall Raziel trying and failing to break stone, although funnily enough, I remember him being launched across a room and breaking stone without trying.

A few piecies of nonsense unfounded, youll never prove the tree thing or the poison thing either, Kain never canonically drank blood after losing the source of his vampiric unlife.

They either get impaled, or burned both destroy the heart, as for water, it takes a long time but eventually knocks them out along with the soul, although in Kains case his soul is persistent, even with a pretty much destroyed body he continues, you would have to dismember him to finish him in this verses.

Bowsers fire is less heat than a human can take because it cant even melt singe brick, its best feat is burning flora which is even easier to burn up than humans. Water has bene proven with Raziel and Dumahim, poison is irrelevent due to no biological function required and Kains TK throws around armoured soldiers, bowsers eyes are nothing. The physical strength so far is beyond earth core pressure vs stone smashing shells lol, I think I am done here.

Logically being a few inches long make them jsut as effective as any blade still, yet he cant defeat them with his claws unless your claiming the regen is so fast it heals fully as he slices into them which is unfounded.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Missed this the first time. To summarize BT's "9 million tons" argument, it's actually based on a sharp point. Raziel is maybe a 100 tonner at best, but BT focuses on the very tips of his claws, where the pressure that Raziel produces is multiplied by the small surface area. A normal guy with a knife can produce similarly huge sounding numbers, but it just means sharp things cut better.

Nice article, Cracked is awesome. Wish they could do something with this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

May I also add that Scenario has little to no knowledge of the math and does not seem to understand it in any of its forms. And a normal guy with a knife cant come close to this.

Originally posted by Burning thought
The heart of darkness is the source of life, its gone, they die. Unless your Kain, then he can live by his very nature, nothing to do with physical means. Bowser has no means to bypass this nor submission Kain, e.g. completly destroy his body.

That's not really confirmed, since the only example is Kain, who lived. That's a terrible reference pool, and being the scion of balance shouldn't let him survive anything. In any case, you seem to have forgotten Bowser's fire, but that's something we can discuss below. Also, poison.


You ignored me again, rude.

Perhaps I should have asked what your 2 examples were, then, I apologize, because so far I've only seen the one, and it's not really a good one given that the Elder God saved Raziel. That one Turelim, and the Dumahim thrown into water die instantly, as do Kain and Raziel before Rahab. Plus the in game statements. So it's still more evidence in my favor.


What do you base this on? because I dont recall Raziel trying and failing to break stone, although funnily enough, I remember him being launched across a room and breaking stone without trying.

I recall every time Raziel kicked a stone block, which as I believe was your go to strength feat for a while. Then there's Raziel actually stabbing the blocks, which pierces but does not break them. Also, this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcZ28gZyNJo#t=3m50s

Which is kinda pathetic. Funny how "being launched" is a strength feat for Raziel now, not that the slight crack he made is impressive next to Bowser.


A few piecies of nonsense unfounded, youll never prove the tree thing or the poison thing either, Kain never canonically drank blood after losing the source of his vampiric unlife.

I already proved the tree thing, you just don't like it. Required gameplay and being necessary to progress and all. Same with the poison, really, except it's more you're job to prove Kain gained an immunity to something he was vulnerable to before.


They either get impaled, or burned both destroy the heart, as for water, it takes a long time but eventually knocks them out along with the soul, although in Kains case his soul is persistent, even with a pretty much destroyed body he continues, you would have to dismember him to finish him in this verses.

Prove every impalement hit the heat, please. False on the water, what with you ignoring the game and the instant death Turelim/Dumahim/Raziel(pre-Rahab)/Kain face falling into it. Putting aside the fact that Bowser is more than capable of dismembering Kain for a second, there's also the huge weakness Kain has to fire, which would do well enough in getting rid of him.


Bowsers fire is less heat than a human can take because it cant even melt singe brick, its best feat is burning flora which is even easier to burn up than humans. Water has bene proven with Raziel and Dumahim, poison is irrelevent due to no biological function required and Kains TK throws around armoured soldiers, bowsers eyes are nothing. The physical strength so far is beyond earth core pressure vs stone smashing shells lol, I think I am done here.

Not really, no. Destroying brick, stone and metal with fire is hardcore, not to mention live trees are actually pretty hard to burn. He'd torch a human, much a vampire with a weakness to fire. Water has indeed been proven to kill vampires quickly bu Turelim, Dumahim, Wraith Raziel, and Kain. Except for that one time Raziel was saved by the Elder God, but you know that's not actually a Raziel feat, right? Kain still has shown no resistance to poison, nor have you proved that he can TK well enough to target eyes, not that such a tiny amount of force would even irritate Bowser explosion tanking eyes. You also haven't proven Kain's physical strength at all, much less that it could match Bowser's earth core pressure (via spikes) tanking shell.


Logically being a few inches long make them jsut as effective as any blade still, yet he cant defeat them with his claws unless your claiming the regen is so fast it heals fully as he slices into them which is unfounded.

Prove that, please, I don't remember even hearing about knife bisectings. Of course, the regeneration being that fast is founded on Raziel stating their flesh "begins to close as soon as it is cleaved." Not that I even claimed they healed fully, since you need only look at the game to know that isn't true, since they do get stunned while regenerating.


May I also add that Scenario has little to no knowledge of the math and does not seem to understand it in any of its forms. And a normal guy with a knife cant come close to this.

Putting aside the blatant personal attacks, I'll point out that a human with a knife can produce pressure equal to 10% of the sun's core. That is, according to the guy who helped BT with his math, BloodRain. (Whose words I would put more faith in, personally.)

after looking at the math. alot of it i see as you, going over it. its not exactly founded. and theres alot of guess work and rounding numbers. but, i cant argue against it, or admit it correct without seeing the formula's used to measure them. mind giving a link to a scientific study or teaching site that provides the structure of those formulas?

and im wondering how a 25-30 foot spire becomes 300 tons. your math on the outcomes of that seems to be based on guesswork. (the assumption of its weight as applied to a type of stone, when you have no idea what type of mineral or alloy that spire was made from, not nessisarily the math itself) so that also needs clarification.

and what? the very first picture i sent you, of the chinese crossbow was a repeater design with an gravity-assisted auto-loader. its over 1,000 year old design. and spearguns dont auto-load. what are you talking about?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yntRCxEWknY
loading a spear gun. not easy. and the guns themselves are HUGE. and those spears still arent as big as the ones used in soul reaver. those spears, raziel used as pole-arm type staffs for combat. they were longer than he was tall. so. via the superpower common sense, and the uber skill logic. its highly unlikly that your idea of the humans having spear-guns that fired those size spears is what happened. nor is it very reasonable or feasable in combat. its far more likly that the humans impaled those vampires in melee combat. and that the ranged weapons were crossbows. seeing as how they looked like crossbows. and fired short bolts at you. and not 6+foot long spears.

and it doesnt take much in ways of piercing to get into flesh. human skin is surprisingly strong against ripping and tearing. but incredibly weak to peircing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0kgWelgRfM&feature=related
see that guy? notice how his skin isnt shredding due his (large) weight? its much easier to stab a hole in leather than it is to tear, too. you need ALOT of force to rip it in half. and hardly any to cut. its not outside the stretch of feasable and reasonable conclusions to say those vamps died by human HANDS.

oh, and the hulk has been in more games than kain. hes even got arcade titles under his belt. so hes open game to compare. and while im at it. if i really wanted to be an ass, i *could* suggest you guys watch more of those "lets play" clips. and tell me how bad raziel strains to pull and push open simple wooden doors in soul reaver. i scoff at it every time. and sometimes i giggle.