Final Destination [Maximum] Vol.9 Bowser X Kain

Originally posted by Burning thought
Your examples are not soul reaver era vampires, the ones we are discussing that have Raziel looking for ways for killing them. Although to explain, Janos is not powerful like other vampires are, he is a natural vampire. Vorador is durability featless so I dont know what your trying to show although similiar to when humans beat Janos, Moebius' staff is there.

All of the vampires are featless, really, you're just assuming they all share the same durability. Why can't I do the same? Vorador being an older vampire than Kain, should be more evolved according to canon. The thing you're doing here, that I find hilarious, is claiming that fledging vampires are more powerful than Vorador and Janos. It's not like Moebius' staff even affects durability, since it simply incapacitates vampires.

You have yet to prove vampires are losing in melee though, soul reaver era vampires at that. Unless moebius' staff was in this fight as well, in which case thats another thing Bowser does not have.

But I already did. Right here.

Give you a reason melee is not viable? 9 million tons of durability, Vampires are faster and stronger than humans, even old era ones and on top of that are pushed and defeated into their little citadel, if vampires could be slaughtered so easily without plot specific reason most vampires would be.

9 million tons of durability? Where exactly would the evidence for this be? You know, I already gave you so very, very many examples of vampires being slaughtered by humans. They were wiped out multiple times, in canon. Even the most powerful ones.

You sort of ignored my claim/counter, you posting the same videos of two vampires burning means nothing. Constantly showing old evidence that has been countered does not help your case, its hardly going to convince me. The LoK world is thick with heavy industry and pollution, it makes sense that flames will be even more intense, either way thats a fact that the SR world has that this verses doesnt, also know what this verses has what this one does not? any of the vampires your using to make your claim, who are vastly different to Kain.

You haven't countered it, though. The reason I keep posting it is precisely because you have failed to counter it. What am I trying to prove? That vampires exposed to fire burn and die quickly. What is my evidence? Two different vampires exposed to fire burning and dying quickly. What is your counter? That Kain is somehow immune to this.

The furnace combusts with such force, it fills the room and blasts the metal door off.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMBp3prbh1E&feature=related#t=8m30s

Congratulations, you have explosive force. Try actual heat next time. Still not exactly comparable to Bowser burning through stone.

Ill drop this underworld point, mainly because its irrelevent at the moment. I may bring it up later, but still bringing up how apprently "whats fire going to do once your dead" when Kain is still technically dead, alongside every vampire and many creatures in the series.

Dead =/= undead. Evidence suggests it is not Kain's actual body, what with the waking up in a mausoleum.

I dont know about that, because I assume he can only breath fire in one direction, a nice backstab would follow Bowser attempting to breath a single flame. Your evidence is not evidence on speed at all, thats your problem in threads, you post a video and then constantly claim it as definitive proof of your claim regardless of how your opponent recieves your "proof", its just context, I dont see a reason why Kain would hesitate to mist dodge, teleport or pull Bowsers head off. A bit too durable based on? hes yet to show 9 million tons of resistance, and I was not even talking about the power, it devours souls, I have yet to see bowsers resistance to this.

Not really, since Bowser is known to spin while breathing.

Kain tries to mist? Bowser inhales him.

Further, Bowser is immune to the soul steal of a catch card. I don't think the Soul Reaver will do much better.

Erm no, again look into the story. Kain is not absorbing anyone, the Reaver is which has no benefit for Kain, hell Kain did not even know it was going to happen. The wraith blade strikes across Kains entire stomach and chest, its more than big enough and if you did not notice, the hole that Raziel made covers those areas.

Not quite. If you remember the end of the game, Kain absorbs Raziel to be healed of his corruption (and injuries) while the Reaver absorbs the Wraith Blade. It barely matters that the Wraith Blade hit a different area of Kain's torso, mostly because of that.

Because Raziels hand is not in the way, nor is pouring bits of blood in the last scene, we get a clear look of what you belive is a hole...there are no ribs, broken flesh just a dark mark that your reaching to be a hole when the developers and I say a scar.

The developers? You mean the people who put the hole on the character model? I think you're the one reaching for a scar, personally, since not much has changed from when Raziel first removed the heart and left the hole there.

I think being faster, higher reactions, greater durability and the ability to kill in a strike is pretty far in Kains favour.

And you're 0 for 4 on the attempts to make an argument. There's no evidence for Kain's supposed speed, and Bowser's durability far outstrips Kain's. Then, of course, Kain can't kill with a strike.

😆 the most powerful weapon in the series and the only difference in Raziels favour from the last time he failed on harming Kain does not matter, stop reaching. I will come back to this point when you stop claiming Kain is somehow getting stronger and ignoring the reaver and previous evidence, I have FMV proof showing Kain is completly invulerable to a more powerful physical strike than Raziel here, difference being my evidence directly relates to the scene so unlike when you claim over and over how you have the evidence, this is relevent 🙂

Well, to be honest, Soul Reaver 2 is rather poor at showing damage. Case in point: Compare this to, say, this. Seriously, look at this. Human Raziel shows no wounds, I guess that means he's unhurt, too? You're claiming that Kain was undamaged, but within the game damage is not often shown. That means it's possible that Kain was harmed, but it simply was not shown. That actually fits with the original scene. Then, of course, there's the fact that Defiance, as the later game, takes precedence over Soul Reaver 2.

First, what the hell....the first few videos are teleports, we dont know how long it took him to re-apear but I was talking physical speed. The second is mario running around an old version of him, not sure how thats relevent and the last ones are him flying around? fairly slowly at that, is that all you have?

You ask me to show you teleports and flight, then when I give them, jump on me for them not being speed feats? That seems dishonest to me. Especially since you have yet to show a single speed feat for Kain. In fact, you've given very little evidence here, so I don't particularly see why I should continue meeting your demands when you refuse to return the favor. In any case, the flight speed here is a bit faster than I've seen Kain move. Heck, this whole fight is just hurtling through space at high speed.

I also just like this cutscene.

Ok, so make your choice, is this super mario galaxy Bowser or the one holding up the iron ball. You realise this large bowser cannot even smash a small planetoid, probably smaller/lighter than the iron ball earlier and made of some sort of brick (filled with lava making it even worse a feat).

Does it matter? Bowser is Bowser.

Your making the claim now that Kain can only teleport once? although tbh, distance is irrelevent since distance is speed/mass between two points and Kain does not physically travel distance and the dimension reaver can reach dimentional, I dont see how a few meters is going to be much to it and again the claim he has to put the reaver away to teleport just because he "did", you seem to have a problem with context/choice then claim someone has to, e.g. bowser "has" to fly to call meteors, bowser "has" to be large to even fly apprently. Also bowser will not be able to get out of reach when hes slowly moving like a slug in a time null zone...

When did I ever claim Kain could only teleport once? Further, I'm sure you can prove that distance is irrelevant. Is this stated or indicated in any way in the Legacy of Kain games? I've gone through them all, of course, so I know you're just making them up, but go ahead and prove teleportation can cross any distance. Show me Kain teleporting beyond a few meters with the dimension reaver, or Kain using his long range teleport with the Reaver in his hands. I don't deny that Bowser can't call down meteorites unless giant, and he has never flown while small. I'm not claiming he can. And unless you forgot, Bowsr can teleport out of that time zone easily.

Their range? their homing bolts of energy, they will find him eventually but again, hes not fast at all and gameplay claims wont help you here. Also how does that prove he has no blood.

Only flay is homing, and it's an item. All the others are fully capable of missing and reach barely a few meters.

Have you played Bowser's Inside story? Mario goes through pretty much all of Bowser's body; muscle, fat, even DNA at one point. He fights against Bowser's immune system and interacts with any type of cell you care to name. Except one. Bowser's biology is beyond impossible, not having blood is the least of the problems with it.

😆 I like how you make these claims as if that means anything, the sun is a tiny ball of lava, the blackhole has no more gravitational pull than a sink plug hole on water, it can barely pull in the tinty balls of rock that constist of Super mario galaxy planets. These are not feats at all, its not even clear if hes struck by anything or harmed. Again, how does this prove he can survive 9 million tons PSI? infact its more than that, possibly as much as 18 million if Kain uses his sword and rips out Bowsers soul at the same time.

Try again.. Bowser was still on that lava ball when started pulling in asteroids and then exploded. Or imploded, as the case may be, and then proceeded to tear apart all the starships and the Comet Observatory. After the Lumas got involved, it also took everything else in, including Princess Peach Castle and the rest of the Comet Observatory. And then exploded again. Pretty much all of that is still above anything Kain can dish out. Heck, even the bob-omb feat I just showed you puts him above Kain. Enough explosives to throw him into the sky, completely unharmed? Yeah, I don't see Kain hurting him, and he still can't get Bowser's soul.

Yes because thats going to be effective, slow moving meteors that can barely daamge the weak piece of rock they were fighting on.

Battlefield control. Bowser can essentially dictate spots where Kain can't be, not only because of the fact that they're on fire, but they create shockwaves as well. Should Kain be hit because he's focused on Bowser, even better.

Dimetional teleport is faster than anything Bowser has attacked/reacted to, Kains reactions are insane during the point zero seconds he makes actions between teleports. Out of range? one teleport, protection? where?

Ah, good, so we allow gameplay? I guess that makes Bowser supersonic since all Mario characters can outrun soundwaves. Good going, there. 👆

I dont know what the star rod is, but I doubt it is standard issue equipment for Bowser.

-Quickly looked it up, what use is this rod going to be? you going to pull some no limit fallacy/overhype to claim its going to grant any wish he wants when he could not even defeat Mario? who later canceled its affects out with some sort of "beam" apprently. Just a rough research but unless you have really good feats for the rod, claiming a no limit fallacy for not standard issue equipment is useless.

Hey, Bowser legitimately stole it. In any case, no, I'm not talking about Bowser's no limits invincibility, I'm talking more about Bowser being able to turn Kain into a card, augment his own strength, or strike Kain with lightning. Or heal himself.

Of course, it's not like Bowser needs the Star Rod to pull a baleful polymorph on Kain. Turning him into a brick will do fine.

So it isn't buried:

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Godamnit it, BT. I hate having to post in this but your math is [b]wrong. As has been highlighted before. You use a falsely inflated number for Raziel's strength and attempt to multiply it by abusing the idea of a small surface area.

272 000 J. This is Raziel's strength per his best feat.

272 000 N.

1N = 0.224808943 foot pound force.

27200N = 61148/144 = 424 lb/i^2

That's about 30 tons over a full foot, here's where I'm a total jackass.

Raziel pierced Kain not with just the tips of his claws, but fit his entire hand into Kain's chest. This has a lot more surface area than a millimeter. 😄

I once used a square foot for the combined size of OoT Link's hands to be generous. Let's use 1/4 of that, size square inches for the entire surface area of Raziel's considerably large hand.

This comes to 244592 pounds over thirty-six square inches. 122 tons total. Enough to tear Kain's heart clean out. What's that per inch, as per our standardized measurement? 6794.2 lbs/i^2. IE, it takes less than 4 tons of PSI to open Kain up.

Invulnerable to nine million tons of force my ass. 😐 [/B]

Originally posted by ScreamPaste

I dont know where you got any of this information from, what is this even based on? Hell 122 tons does not even account for half the weight of Bloodrains lowest estimate so far for the frustum. It seems like a fat lowball of wrong figuires, show me your full workins, weights and what this is even based on because your not going to convince anyone with a figuire of force lower than the objects weight.

Further, you seem lowball any numbers that are not Zelda orientated, you harp on about gigajoules for Link yet his force is about 2000000 kinetic energy.

Originally posted by The Scenario

Most vampires do not have Raziel looking for other ways to destroy them. Certainly not Janos and Vorador. Moebius' staff does a lot of things, for one it depowers the Soul reaver on Raziels hand, but not Raziel himself so it seems to affect spiritual things, point being is that in the location of the staff, most beings are far weaker than usual.

Since when is a few impaled vampires proving they were beaten in melee? scenario your imagination is almost as good as screampastes.

Raziel looking for more ways of defeating them, if they could not take Raziels claws he would not be looking for sunlight, water or sticks to impale them on. Raziel would just pull them apart like dry leaves.

Pointing out that everything in that rendering of graphics burns quickly sort of counters the claim vampires disitegrate in seconds as soon as you toss a match at them. Tbh, showing one vampire which is Zephon burning to death hardly makes it a comparison to Kain who is vastly different.

All the furnace uses is heat, which seems to be at such a high level of combustion it explodes, I dont know how much heat you need to create that much friction but I can point out its far more impressive tha anything you have shown of bowser, including burning trees 😆 , also as I said before, you use industrial furnaces to melt metal, not softer things like rocks and wood.

So hes according to you just spinning on the spot spitting fire balls? what a great tactic....... 🙂

Well if he can do so, Kains mist is simply under his control, further Kain can turn back in a blink of an eye so as soon as bowser stops breathing fire Kain is whole and jumping in with a reaver to the head.

Show me Bowser taking the catch card, you know the card that says it has a chance of failure anyway regardless of who its targeting.

You got it the wrong way round, Kain absorbs the wraith blade, Raziel gets taken by the reaver. It does not hit a "different" area though, it covers most of Kains chest/stomach and if you try and reach to claim the wound was a little to the left or right it means little, its the only advantage Raziel has since Kain was being invulerable before. Also I think its funny how you talk about newer games retconning old ones despite using poor evidence and context but using your own logic I could probably find a newer game with bowser in it with worse feats than older ones and try and claim hes been retconned, most with better context than your argument, like how he cannot destroy a small planetoid in SMG.

Again, you claim a hole, I think the developers and I are more in the rights than your strange belief theres some sort of deep hole still there, that does not bleed or reveal anything within Kains body, not even the rips.

Dimentional reaver and his attack on moebius is faster than anything I have seen from Bowser, further you have yet to prove durability and survival of a strike.

This is where your whole claim here falls on its head and you realise my evidence is an FMV, not the Soul reaver 2 graphics engine, meaning the developers tailored the FMV using a completly different engine to render it also we see a wound, the sword right through him shows damage even if we dont see a hole. Defiance does not contradict previous showings, your constant reaching and ignorance of context does.

Originally posted by The Scenario

Youve not asked for it yet, although half the stuff I have shown you or is in the respect thread.

In that first video he seems to only move a few meters a second before teleporting, quite slow. Also what reaction feats does he have? Kains mind can react, work and create an action for him in fractions of a second, taking into account the human brain takes a second or so to do all of that, whats bowsers reactions to stop him from being killed before he can make a thought/action?

Well it does matter because some bowsers seem to have different power sources, sizes, abilities in use etc, for example this giant SMG bowser is weaker than the one who can lift the iron ball.

The part where you argue Kains teleport range as if thats the only way he can reach a flying bowser. I just did, teleportation does not cover distance exactly, no distance is passed. And Kain can teleport next to bowser again, the time distortion lasts a good 10-20 seconds and furthermore you act like Bowser is reacting and teleporting at normal speed while inside the null zone....hes slowed, considering Kain can attack in fractions of a second, I think this argument is over, only your reaching and irrelevent claims like fire breathing and size is going to continue.

Wrong, stun and the time freeze bolt are homing. Not to mension blood shower, lightning storm and perhaps others (inspire hate?) do not need a specific target and affect all those in an area effect, one which considering time powers, he will be in for a good while.

So your claim that Bowser does not have blood is backed by your belief Mario does not interact with blood at all? and one image that I do not even have any idea what its showing me.....more evidence please.

Show me the pressure forces for these feats, because so far all you have is a blackhole that can barely suck in Mario and small objects and a sun thats a blob of lava, your video confirmed this and the force Bowser has in his body from being launched could not even damage the ground on his landing, not that being thrown into the air in a cartoon is impressive, most cartoon/toon games do it and the force to launch someone into the air is not figuired in the millions of tons (also not this is in a small area of a body).

only Kain can within split seconds be at any spot on the battlefield while using mist, teleport etc so its useless, also Kain can be at any of those spots, the meteors are irrelevent, they will explode as the hit Kain.

No gameplay mechanics are present here chuck so I dont know what your reaching for, again...your arms must get tired and sore from all the reaching.

He turns 2d piecies of card into smaller piecies, hardly much of a feat since their all paper and it took a damn long time for it to work, Kain could kill him in a fraction of that time. Further, if this is paper mario now, Bowser gets torn in half with one of Kains claw slashes 😄

I dont know what your showing me in the manuel, its fairly large so give me a page number, line please....not that it matters.

You also forget Kain at his weakest has been faced and completly untouched by far more powerful reality warping and transformation than that at Dark Eden, therefore Kain is immune to bowsers transformation attempts.

IT should be buried, Screampaste is to math what Quanchi is to logic.

I dont know where you got any of this information from, what is this even based on? Hell 122 tons does not even account for half the weight of Bloodrains lowest estimate so far for the frustum. It seems like a fat lowball of wrong figuires, show me your full workins, weights and what this is even based on because your not going to convince anyone with a figuire of force lower than the objects weight.

Further, you seem lowball any numbers that are not Zelda orientated, you harp on about gigajoules for Link yet his force is about 2000000 kinetic energy.

You'll note that gigajoules are > kilojoules.

You did not sort anything out, you took a number from an unkown source and came up with a figuire less than the base items weight and then claimed thats what Raziel used to get it moving, it does not even make sense besides the math which does not include the full workings on the weight.

Go back to the workings, and find out what you did wrong then come back in. Also BR was argueing something else entirely, so trying to claim your in agreement on that portion is pointless until he does similiar workings that give similiar figuires, not that Bloodrain was argueing with you anyway, its me you need to convince and at the moment 100 tons cannot move 300 tons.

also Raziels energy is; 2177883.376 overall. Spread over the top part of his claws to lift up the thing and push it so you lost a unit.

100 tons cannot move 300 tons.

100 tons can easily topple a tall, slender, 300 tons. 🙂

its me you need to convince

find out what you did wrong then come back in.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
100 tons can easily topple a tall, slender, 300 tons. 🙂

You've proven long ago to be unreasonable, convincing you of anything is impossible. The numbers are there to show for posterity that your calcs are wrong, so everyone who reads this thread can see for themselves just how off base "NINE MILLLIONNN TONZ!" really is.

The irony of you telling my to find out what I did wrong is delicious when you can manipulate a sub-MJ level feat into nine million tons of durability. haermm

But its not slender, Raziel would have to beat 300 tons to even move it but more importantly, he moves it fairly quickly over a few meters meaning far more force than that (800 tons).

Thats wrong, you not being able to convince me only shows your lack of skill at debating it, Scenario, Bloodrain and utrigitos have convinced me many times before. Why would anyone read your scrawl as correct over mine? youve not really proven anything, just made a counter calculation that you claim with arrogance is more likely despite it missing a lot of context and not making sense in general.

My calculations cover all my claims and their fairly clear, all you did in your calculation is cut off a unit, claim Raziel punched instead of clawed Kain and then said I was wrong....considering your track record of poor comprehension of video games in general (lightning link, sonic whips, feats that dont exist) and your general downplaying of anything non Zelda in general its interesting why you even bothered to post in here with such flawed credability.

Tbh I was hoping for a more interesting mathmatical formulae that simply "he dint claw!!"

But its not slender, Raziel would have to beat 300 tons to even move it but more importantly, he moves it fairly quickly over a few meters meaning far more force than that (800 tons).

its interesting why you even bothered to post in here with such flawed credability.

Tbh I was hoping for a more interesting mathmatical formulae that simply "he dint claw!!"

Kain's durability has been debunked, feel free to resort to denial, insults, ect. I've done my job, and will leave the rest to someone infinitely more patient than I am.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Raziel never lifts it, or supports it's full weight, he topples it.

Ironic ad hominem. I'm far more credible than you are, particularly on matters of math. Especially concerning your favoured character, your bias is legendary.

1. Strawman. My argument is not that he didn't claw.
2. Raziel did fit his entire fist into Kain's chest, meaning greater surface area.
3. Why does a math equation need to be complex or interesting to do it's job? Ideally math equations are simply and efficient, and easy to comprehend. I want my numbers to be clear so that people can follow along.

Kain's durability has been debunked, feel free to resort to denial, insults, ect. I've done my job, and will leave the rest to someone infinitely more patient than I am.

He has to pull it up first to topple it, it does not topple until he pulls it up AND pushes it.

😆 what a lot of hot air, and I did not use ad hominem to claim your argument as wrong, I already said why your math is wrong before, I simply pointed out reasons why your less credible which are true. Bias? pff everyone is bias concerning their characters, I am proven to be far more reasonable in the bayonetta thread and in this one, letting arguments slide and even making calculations for the opposition.

1. You said yourself he hit him with more surface area, e.g. his hand...that was the meat and potatoes of your argument really other than the fact you chopped off a unit.
2. He striked with his claw tips, where are you getting the "entire fist" nonsense from?
3. If you want them to be clear then youve left out actual weights that your comparing to, distances. All you really did is toss in a number for joules and calculate from there, anyone can do that.

Debunked if you want to chop off a figuire, use a smaller figuire than necessery to move an object and then argue Raziel did not use his claw tips 🙄, tbh even if you could legitimately argue Raziel did less work, or that he only sent it moving a one or two meters rather than my calculated 4 you would not change Kains durability much, at best a few million. Hence why the only argument of concern is why you think, why anyone would think he did not use his claws when he clearly did....

Kain does not need 9 million tons of durablity PSI to reflect/survive damage from most KMC conventional characters.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Most vampires do not have Raziel looking for other ways to destroy them. Certainly not Janos and Vorador. Moebius' staff does a lot of things, for one it depowers the Soul reaver on Raziels hand, but not Raziel himself so it seems to affect spiritual things, point being is that in the location of the staff, most beings are far weaker than usual.

So you're still saying that fledglings are more powerful than Janos and Vorador. Gotcha. Still, it's not like the humans needed alternate ways to kill vampires, since impalement and fire, and water, and sound, and light, seem to work well enough. Moebius' staff just immobilizes them, though, as that's what Moebius says it does.

Since when is a few impaled vampires proving they were beaten in melee? scenario your imagination is almost as good as screampastes.

Ever since spears were considered melee weapons, so, always?

Raziel looking for more ways of defeating them, if they could not take Raziels claws he would not be looking for sunlight, water or sticks to impale them on. Raziel would just pull them apart like dry leaves.

Yes, I'm sure that how the gameplay works. Oh wait no it doesn't. All Raziel says is that they heal from those light slashes, but of course impalement prevents that. He should have just stabbed them with his claws like in Soul Reaver 2 instead of of slashing. Because it's mostly regeneration anyway, not durability.

Pointing out that everything in that rendering of graphics burns quickly sort of counters the claim vampires disitegrate in seconds as soon as you toss a match at them. Tbh, showing one vampire which is Zephon burning to death hardly makes it a comparison to Kain who is vastly different.

Zephon is Kain's descendant. He was literally born from Kain. So was Dumah, and both burn in cutscene. Hold on, I'm going to save this quote for later.

All the furnace uses is heat, which seems to be at such a high level of combustion it explodes, I dont know how much heat you need to create that much friction but I can point out its far more impressive tha anything you have shown of bowser, including burning trees 😆 , also as I said before, you use industrial furnaces to melt metal, not softer things like rocks and wood.

Not really. If you watch the cutscenes you'll that it's the gas igniting that causes that explosion. Bowser destroying trees, brick, and stone is still burning hotter.

So hes according to you just spinning on the spot spitting fire balls? what a great tactic....... 🙂

Indeed. Everything's going to be on fire, and his back is protected by that darn fine shell of his. Hmm, Bowser can likely set himself on fire, since that doesn't bother him.

Well if he can do so, Kains mist is simply under his control, further Kain can turn back in a blink of an eye so as soon as bowser stops breathing fire Kain is whole and jumping in with a reaver to the head.

In which case Bowster still inhales him. Or switches back to fire.

Show me Bowser taking the catch card, you know the card that says it has a chance of failure anyway regardless of who its targeting.

Ha, who would waste a valuable item like that against something it's known to fail against? That's rather like trying to prove Mortanius is immune to Kain's control mind spell. No, a video of that is impossible since no one making a walkthrough is that stupid. Bowser as a boss just has the typical immunity to one hit kills like that. Times stops, too, damn that final boss immunity.

Maybe I could record it myself, but that would of course require me to buy the equipment, make a youtube account, and go find where I put that game and I don't really want to do that for a versus debate. I'm terribly sorry.

You got it the wrong way round, Kain absorbs the wraith blade, Raziel gets taken by the reaver. It does not hit a "different" area though, it covers most of Kains chest/stomach and if you try and reach to claim the wound was a little to the left or right it means little, its the only advantage Raziel has since Kain was being invulerable before. Also I think its funny how you talk about newer games retconning old ones despite using poor evidence and context but using your own logic I could probably find a newer game with bowser in it with worse feats than older ones and try and claim hes been retconned, most with better context than your argument, like how he cannot destroy a small planetoid in SMG.

Sure, Kain's still healed by that stuff. The Wraith Blade hitting Kain would hardly matter in that case, even though it does hit a different part of his torso than Raziel. I'm sure you could try to use my logic, but I'm not sure it would work out too well for you. I think you're underestimating planetoids, personally.

Again, you claim a hole, I think the developers and I are more in the rights than your strange belief theres some sort of deep hole still there, that does not bleed or reveal anything within Kains body, not even the rips.

Is there any word of god or are you just making up this developer stuff? Because while they are the ones who made the model of Kain with a hole in his chest, I wouldn't really claim they are on my side. Probably because they don't care. I've already explained why it doesn't bleed, of course. You are aware that Kain spent quite a while unconscious in the Demon Realm, right? More than enough time for what little blood there was to dry. Further, you have not answered my question: if the ribs were not visible when Raziel made the hole, why would they be visible later?

Dimentional reaver and his attack on moebius is faster than anything I have seen from Bowser, further you have yet to prove durability and survival of a strike.

Bowser outruns soundwaves, man. That puts him way out of Kain's league. Sorry. I have already given you Bowser's durability in the multiple explosions and mini supernova and black holes he has tanked. And the soul resistance of the catch card.

[quoe]
This is where your whole claim here falls on its head and you realise my evidence is an FMV, not the Soul reaver 2 graphics engine, meaning the developers tailored the FMV using a completly different engine to render it also we see a wound, the sword right through him shows damage even if we dont see a hole. Defiance does not contradict previous showings, your constant reaching and ignorance of context does.
[/quote]

Your point? We do not see a wound in either case. With Raziel, there is no wound, no cut, no blood, or anything else. With Kain, same thing. Defiance does contradict the previous showing, though, since Raziel pierces Kain. Again, we've already determined that the context makes Kain even stronger than normal, and Raziel weaker, so it comes off as a much worse feat. Have you even tried to math the Defiance scene?

Youve not asked for it yet, although half the stuff I have shown you or is in the respect thread.

Show it in the thread, then. I'm decently sure most of Bowser's abilities are in his respect thread, but of course I didn't check it.

In that first video he seems to only move a few meters a second before teleporting, quite slow. Also what reaction feats does he have? Kains mind can react, work and create an action for him in fractions of a second, taking into account the human brain takes a second or so to do all of that, whats bowsers reactions to stop him from being killed before he can make a thought/action?

Heh, that's much more than a few meters a second. I've already told, you Bowser dodges and outruns soundwaves. He stomps Kain in that department.

Well it does matter because some bowsers seem to have different power sources, sizes, abilities in use etc, for example this giant SMG bowser is weaker than the one who can lift the iron ball.

He doesn't really seem weaker to me. After all, he is putting his fist through a planetoid. While he not really trying to destroy it, since he's just punching Mario.

The part where you argue Kains teleport range as if thats the only way he can reach a flying bowser. I just did, teleportation does not cover distance exactly, no distance is passed. And Kain can teleport next to bowser again, the time distortion lasts a good 10-20 seconds and furthermore you act like Bowser is reacting and teleporting at normal speed while inside the null zone....hes slowed, considering Kain can attack in fractions of a second, I think this argument is over, only your reaching and irrelevent claims like fire breathing and size is going to continue.

Prove Kain can teleport beyond his shown range i.e: a few meters with the dimension Reaver. Bowser is kinda immune to Mario's time stop as well, so I didn't see much reason to regard the time field. In addition, Bowser's supersonic reflexes and movement will still be beating Kain in any case.

Wrong, stun and the time freeze bolt are homing. Not to mension blood shower, lightning storm and perhaps others (inspire hate?) do not need a specific target and affect all those in an area effect, one which considering time powers, he will be in for a good while.

Stun is limited to humans, and Bowser is immune to time freezes. He does not have blood for blood shower, and there's no one else for Bowser to hate. I think that about covers it?

So your claim that Bowser does not have blood is backed by your belief Mario does not interact with blood at all? and one image that I do not even have any idea what its showing me.....more evidence please.

It's not really something you can just show, since it's kind of a whole game about Bowser's biology. Try six minutes of inside Bowser.

Show me the pressure forces for these feats, because so far all you have is a blackhole that can barely suck in Mario and small objects and a sun thats a blob of lava, your video confirmed this and the force Bowser has in his body from being launched could not even damage the ground on his landing, not that being thrown into the air in a cartoon is impressive, most cartoon/toon games do it and the force to launch someone into the air is not figuired in the millions of tons (also not this is in a small area of a body).

lol'd at the Toonforce. In any case, I've already shown you the black hole pulling apart starships and the observatory, both of which are of course durable enough to be space capable, and the observatory in particular is FTL. The star Bowser is in still exploded and sucked in multiple tons of rocks and crushed them together, else there would not have been a black hole. Also, please don't be ignoring the bob-omb explosion.

only Kain can within split seconds be at any spot on the battlefield while using mist, teleport etc so its useless, also Kain can be at any of those spots, the meteors are irrelevent, they will explode as the hit Kain.

Sure, But if he wants to fight Bowser he'll have to stop eventually, and with all the shockwaves everywhere he can't stay on the ground. Not to mention they'll be hitting Kain from behind, where he can't see them.

No gameplay mechanics are present here chuck so I dont know what your reaching for, again...your arms must get tired and sore from all the reaching.

Did you call me chuck? That's pretty funny. Still, both the dimensional teleport and outrunning soundwaves are gameplay, so either both are valid or neither is.

He turns 2d piecies of card into smaller piecies, hardly much of a feat since their all paper and it took a damn long time for it to work, Kain could kill him in a fraction of that time. Further, if this is paper mario now, Bowser gets torn in half with one of Kains claw slashes 😄

Haha, you have no counter.

I dont know what your showing me in the manuel, its fairly large so give me a page number, line please....not that it matters.

One day the kingdom of peaceful mushroom people was invaded by the Koopa, a tribe of turtles famous for their black magic. The quiet, peace-loving Mushroom People were turned into mere stone, bricks, and even field horsehair plants, and the Mushroom Kingdom fell into ruin.

You also forget Kain at his weakest has been faced and completly untouched by far more powerful reality warping and transformation than that at Dark Eden, therefore Kain is immune to bowsers transformation attempts.

More powerful? Reality warping? Prove that if you can. If you remember, none of the Circle was affected, it was stated to only affect the living, and, my personal favorite, there are humans inside it. Not to mention plenty of "please help, kind sir" inside the Eden castle.

IT should be buried, Screampaste is to math what Quanchi is to logic.

As I recall, it was Screampaste who taught you about math. Good going, there.

Welly welly welly welly well. This is still running along, with alot of... interesting points. Just to reiterate; yes Bowser is stronger and yes if it lands a strong hit will do Kain in. Oh, and fire. Fire is always good.

Originally posted by The Scenario

more durable, sure because Janos is irrelevent and Vorador has power but I am not sure hes durable, dont forget he is evolved but he is not of Kains spirit, Kain being the most powerful being of the lot.

Well your claiming their spears, tbh I have yet to see spears look like that, the back end of the projectile suggests aerodynamics actually. If their spears, they must have some incredible enchantments to be able to melt through such durable beings.

This was storyline, e.g. cutscene, not gameplay mechanics so dont try and reach for that, you use more than enough of those. Raziel is looking for ways to defeat them, if he could do it with his bare hands, e.g. millions of tons of power he would not be pointing out how not only does he have to find other ways to finish them off but that they can apprently regen too quick for his power to destroy them, either way that is more than humans can do.

He can also do things Kain cant, just like how Kain has hundreds of things he can do that Zephon cannot, its a generalisation, assuming you could even hit kain with fire, then all he would have to do is mist form ftw and it would have nothing to combust since Kain would not be a physical vampire.

Gas igniting causes the fire, which explodes outwards from the heat taking out the door, either way its far more than Bowser has shown, least of all burning trees, hes not really shown anything that a basic, let alone industrial furnace like this one could not do and most of them cannot explode with such force.

Yes protected, against what? I doubt 9 million tons. "everyones going to be on fire", what a strange general claim.

Damn those precious gameplay mechanics 😆 , go and find a better argument please.

You know, doing all that would be a waste of time because it would prove what I knew already to be true, its just a gameplay mechanic and does not canonically happen. Most bosses in games are immune to one hit kills.

This does not seem to counter or even address my point, you just made another general claim. Underestimating them? their tiny balls of whatever material the mario world seems to shove into them, from grass, bricks and other colourful fun little things! 😄

Neither the developers nor I can measure your crude perception, although here;

Jen and kyle
When Kain is purified by Raziel's sacrifice it heals the scar upon his chest. This is a visual representation of the physical and spiritual healing and purity that Raziel confers.

You made the claim that the heart is the only reason a wound may bleed, this is ridiculous. We dont know how much time, not long enough for the demons to rip him apart, so I dont know about all the blood from his wound to congeal. Because Raziels hand no linger fills the hole you belive is there, obscuring our view....

Gameplay mechanics, possibly not even canon either. You cannot gauge any of those things, you dont know the explosive force of the bombs, you dont know how much imapct they have and the super novas and black holes are even more ambigious.

Show what in the thread?

Originally posted by The Scenario

Countered, if we could use gameplay then Raziel can dodge cannon rounds/shells launched at close range, firearm projectiles are faster than sound in most cases.

You seem to have grabbed a gameplay mechanic and ran with it in all your posts as if you have not got any real counter for my claims. Its like a fan with a favourite character, you may as well just be saying "yeh but he winz anyways!"...

Well first prove Stun can only harm humans, its a claim and these others are still to be proven.

Noticed that almost all the environments in that video are red? like blood, or flesh filled with blood? I dont think you can prove Bowser does not have any blood just by posting a video that has no clear meaning.

I have seen the black hole pulling in and devouring tiny planetoids at slow speeds, proving it seems to have a weak gravitational pull for a black hole, theres nothing there that suggets Bowser has any super durability, infact I doubt durability is even worth mentioning, its your claims that attribute physics to these toonholes/novas.

With Kains reactions and speed Bowser will have been struck before he realised Kain had stopped, especally if hes frozen in time or nulled.

Well no, you see the dimentional teleport is not a mechanic, its a fairly scripted series of actions that are portrayed like this all the time, if you want to claim the gameplay mechanics, then you have to accept the fact that marios "sound waves" move slowly across the screen, depicting no real evidence of speed or real soundwaves, there seems to be a theme of Supermario objects being either really slow or otherwise non physical, probably toon logic.

It was more powerful because it covered large areas, e.g. an entire region of Eden wheras I see one slow charge up turning a handfull of little stars into cards from the Star rod, further it warped both beast, the weather etc so your claims here do not mean much. Seriously, you act like you know something about the series, then prove ignorance in the face of someone who knows it very well.

Screampaste tought me math? wow, last time I looked at my days in education qualified teachers did that. Screampaste started using PSI and gave me a figuire to divde by for PSI, everyones been using it since. unfortunatly, that does not stop him from messing about with figuires, lowballing etc which I have seen too often.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Welly welly welly welly well. This is still running along, with alot of... interesting points. Just to reiterate; yes Bowser is stronger and yes if it lands a strong hit will do Kain in. Oh, and fire. Fire is always good.

Bowser only has less than 50% more power behind a blow on Kain, only 50% more power than an attack that does zero to kains outer skin layer is hardly "do Kain in", infact its not necesserily likely to pierce Kains skin at all. So is lightning, time powers, soul stealing, blood draining and turtle soup.

Screampaste tought me math? wow, last time I looked at my days in education qualified teachers did that. Screampaste started using PSI and gave me a figuire to divde by for PSI, everyones been using it since. unfortunatly, that does not stop him from messing about with figuires, lowballing etc which I have seen too often.

Damn, It seems I am sometimes wrong afterall!

Spoiler:
Although that does not contradict anything I have said, infact it points out I disprove of your shoddy use, you just happened to have some idea how to get PSI on sword edges

Bowser is much stronger than Raziel. Any feat (involving strength) he can do, Bowser can do better. Here included.

he may be able to do better, technically a shotgun slug can do more damage than a pistol round. This does not mean it can pierce a tank if you get the meaning 🙂

😕 It'd do a better than the pistol would...

Originally posted by Burning thought
more durable, sure because Janos is irrelevent and Vorador has power but I am not sure hes durable, dont forget he is evolved but he is not of Kains spirit, Kain being the most powerful being of the lot.

Vorador is quite a bit older than Kain, no? He was thousands of years old when Kain was first born. The only real vampiric difference between Kain and Vorador is, shockhorror, Janos Audron's heart. Still, vampires are commonly taken down in ways that wouldn't make sense if they had durability. Heck, Melchiah was damaged by a portcullis. Even the weakest was still immune to Raziel's claws, and a gate just messes him up.

Well your claiming their spears, tbh I have yet to see spears look like that, the back end of the projectile suggests aerodynamics actually. If their spears, they must have some incredible enchantments to be able to melt through such durable beings.

Spears, tridents, doesn't matter what they're called. They highly resemble the basic Sarafan melee weapon staff. Which they often used to impale vampires, and evidently that still works. The back end is actually rather the opposite of aerodynamic, there's too much weight on one side and the prongs aren't right for flying. Now then, they did not melt the vampires. Prove enchantment, and you still have not produced the claimed launching device.

This was storyline, e.g. cutscene, not gameplay mechanics so dont try and reach for that, you use more than enough of those. Raziel is looking for ways to defeat them, if he could do it with his bare hands, e.g. millions of tons of power he would not be pointing out how not only does he have to find other ways to finish them off but that they can apprently regen too quick for his power to destroy them, either way that is more than humans can do.

Durability actually isn't hinted at even once. Raziel mentions regeneration, since his claws apparently can't cut deeply. After all, slashing seems to be all he's capable of. He really should have just impaled them on his claws like Soul Reaver 2. Impalement kills them, after all, since it prevents regeneration. As does fire, but it also kills them quickly, same as water.

He can also do things Kain cant, just like how Kain has hundreds of things he can do that Zephon cannot, its a generalisation, assuming you could even hit kain with fire, then all he would have to do is mist form ftw and it would have nothing to combust since Kain would not be a physical vampire.

You're ignoring Dumah. Why? Is it because he's too similar to Kain for your argument to work? Especially since he got impaled by humans, too. So what I have is a canon statement that vampires are weak to fire, and cutscenes of two different vampires burning to death in under 10 seconds. What you have is the insistence that Kain is different with no evidence. Further, we already know Bowser will just inhale him if he tries that.

Gas igniting causes the fire, which explodes outwards from the heat taking out the door, either way its far more than Bowser has shown, least of all burning trees, hes not really shown anything that a basic, let alone industrial furnace like this one could not do and most of them cannot explode with such force.

It's not really from the the heat though. It explosive force from the gas. It's still less than Bowser has shown actually destroying stone instead of just pushing it around.

Yes protected, against what? I doubt 9 million tons. "everyones going to be on fire", what a strange general claim.

I don't think Kain can even exert 9 million tons. Bowser's shell is hardcore, considering it's tougher than his skin and Bowser's skin is near impossible to damage anyway. If he curls into shell, he becomes immune to spikes and can block attacks like energy blasts or spike balls. Also, Bowser has lit himself on fire. It'll be like fighting one of those fire Golems that make Defiance so tedious.

Damn those precious gameplay mechanics 😆 , go and find a better argument please.

What? Bowser canonically inhales peoples and breathes fire, so not sure what you're talking about here.

You know, doing all that would be a waste of time because it would prove what I knew already to be true, its just a gameplay mechanic and does not canonically happen. Most bosses in games are immune to one hit kills.

Yet Bowser is still immune, whatcha gonna do?

This does not seem to counter or even address my point, you just made another general claim. Underestimating them? their tiny balls of whatever material the mario world seems to shove into them, from grass, bricks and other colourful fun little things! 😄

Well, you weren't really making a point, just stating that Kain is invulnerable again despite evidence to the contrary. Raziel ripped Kain's heart out despite Kain absorbing him, and that overrides Soul Reaver 2. Fairly simple.

Neither the developers nor I can measure your crude perception, although here;

You made the claim that the heart is the only reason a wound may bleed, this is ridiculous. We dont know how much time, not long enough for the demons to rip him apart, so I dont know about all the blood from his wound to congeal. Because Raziels hand no linger fills the hole you belive is there, obscuring our view....

Oh, developers again. They aren't really here, so I don't know why you bring them up. And then, this is probably the most dishonest thing I've ever seen you do. Since you do of course know that they are referring to the scar on Kain's chest that was caused when he was murdered in Blood Omen and never healed. You know, this one. As you should know, Raziel heals that, too. In other words, wrong scar, nice try.

On the blood, yes, without a heart that stuff doesn't tend to flow. He was in the Demon Realm for a while, and does have some stains, but you can still clearly see a hole there. I don't know what you're seeing, but it's quite obviously intended to be a hole. That Kain failed to regenerate.

Gameplay mechanics, possibly not even canon either. You cannot gauge any of those things, you dont know the explosive force of the bombs, you dont know how much imapct they have and the super novas and black holes are even more ambigious.

Hey, we both know the dimensional reaver is game mechanics, but that doesn't stop you. May not even be canon that he used it. We know the explosive force was enough to throw Bowser across the country, and we know that the supernova and black hole restarted the universe. All of them are unambiguously above what Kain is capable of.

Show what in the thread?

How about your evidence?

Countered, if we could use gameplay then Raziel can dodge cannon rounds/shells launched at close range, firearm projectiles are faster than sound in most cases.

You were already using gameplay at the dimensional reaver. In any case, please prove those were supersonic rounds.

You seem to have grabbed a gameplay mechanic and ran with it in all your posts as if you have not got any real counter for my claims. Its like a fan with a favourite character, you may as well just be saying "yeh but he winz anyways!"...

Well, to be fair, so did you. All this hype about the dimension reaver since it's Kain's only speed feat. I'm simply returning the favor with Bowser's obvious speed.

Well first prove Stun can only harm humans, its a claim and these others are still to be proven.

Done.

Noticed that almost all the environments in that video are red? like blood, or flesh filled with blood? I dont think you can prove Bowser does not have any blood just by posting a video that has no clear meaning.

Exactly my point, I told you it can't be proven by one video. Noticed that Mario fights against cells in that video, and at that size blood cells would be half Mario's height? Not sure what to tell you, but Bowser's body defies biology. For instance, his arm contains a cannon that fires balls of electricity, which serves to stimulate his muscles. Blood? What blood?

I have seen the black hole pulling in and devouring tiny planetoids at slow speeds, proving it seems to have a weak gravitational pull for a black hole, theres nothing there that suggets Bowser has any super durability, infact I doubt durability is even worth mentioning, its your claims that attribute physics to these toonholes/novas.

Being weak for a black hole is kind of like being slow for a bullet. Or small for a nuke. Dang, I can't seem to come up with any examples more powerful than a black hole or supernova. But really, if you look at that scene and think Bowser has no durability, I have to ask if I'm linking the video wrong.

With Kains reactions and speed Bowser will have been struck before he realised Kain had stopped, especally if hes frozen in time or nulled.

But Bowser is immune to time stops, remember? Not to mention he's supersonic, so I doubt that'll work too well.

Well no, you see the dimentional teleport is not a mechanic, its a fairly scripted series of actions that are portrayed like this all the time, if you want to claim the gameplay mechanics, then you have to accept the fact that marios "sound waves" move slowly across the screen, depicting no real evidence of speed or real soundwaves, there seems to be a theme of Supermario objects being either really slow or otherwise non physical, probably toon logic.

Well no, you see the boomboxer is not a mechanic, its a fairly scripted type of enemy that is portrayed like this all the time, if you want to claim the gameplay mechanics, then you have to accept that it description states it uses pure sound as an attack, despite how it may appear in game.

This music maven will assault you with bowel-busting bass! What's with the face it makes when it rocks out?

This Boomboxer blasts cones of pure sound at anyone it doesn't like... Max HP is 4 and Attack is 2. It gets startled by its own loud noises... What would drive a music lover to listen to anything that loud...

It was more powerful because it covered large areas, e.g. an entire region of Eden wheras I see one slow charge up turning a handfull of little stars into cards from the Star rod, further it warped both beast, the weather etc so your claims here do not mean much. Seriously, you act like you know something about the series, then prove ignorance in the face of someone who knows it very well.

'k, you have failed to counter that there are humans in Dark Eden, both as enemies and mere peasants chained to the wall. That being in addition to the Pillar Guardians that were unaffected, as well as Vorador. That again in addition to the statement that Dark Eden is limited to targets that are both living and pure, of which Kain is neither. Not a feat.

As compared to Bowser trapping seven powerful spirits in cards and transforming all the people of the Mushroom Kingdom into bricks.