Final Destination [Maximum] Vol.9 Bowser X Kain

To get it out of the way: Bowser does use his claws. Those three links alone show that Bowser can poison his claws, stab with them, or amp them with magic. There ya go, BloodRain.

Originally posted by Burning thought
I dont know actually, Vorador died before the SR era, infact canonically he died in BO1 but appears in BO2 from an unkown reason, so at some point he was ressurected, I am not sure what happened to him since he is not mentioned in the following games, it would seem he was destroyed as most fans speculate by Kain. Either way, your argument holds no ground still, age is not the only defining power level of a vampire, Kain is still vastly more powerful. Your bringing up vampires other than those featured in the scene....your grasping at straws. Melchiah was considered the weakest of his brothers, to the point where his flesh was constantly rotting off by itself.

Vorador was ancient when Kain was a fledgling, that's about all that needs to be said. Oh, and Melchiah? Raziel couldn't hurt him with claws, either, so why does that matter? He's certainly more powerful than fledgling Dumahim.

So according to your interpretation they look like Sarafan melee weapons (despite sarafan no longer excisting in that period unless your claiming this happened years ago before any evolution/devolution sort of ruining your argument anyway) and based on that you think you have fact to suggest they were meleed? 😆 not convincing, scenario you have a problem with burden of proof, first I have proven the vampires are durable with Raziels comments so its your turn to prove humans had a way to surpass this with your theory of meleeing them.

Yes, unless you have something substantial for your ranged weapon theory? So far, something that resembles a known melee would be more likely to be used in melee than shot out of a siege crossbow, especially since the shape is all wrong for a bolt. Besides, you have no not, in fact, proven that vampires are durable. That's because they regenerate. Play through the game again, you'll notice that vampires bleed when Raziel hits them, and enough blows will stun them while they try to regenerate their injuries.

No durability, just regeneration Which is negated by being impaled, which Bowser can, in fact, do.

Why would raziel look for other means of killing them if their not durable and able to be ripped into piecies? You also misunderstand the use of spears, water etc, because its a constant period of damage meaning it will stay inside them unlike his claws, hence why when water recedes vampires come back to life, when spears are pulled out etc. If Raziel could tear them into piecies with his super strength, he would not need water, the sun etc.

Because they regenerate, obviously. His claws hurt them, and enough damage makes them helpless so Raziel can throw them at something dangerous. Again, no actual durability, they just don't die from slashes. L2LoK, dude.

Well because he was hit by a devasating furnace blast that also explodes with force of its power, its not just "catching alight". NO evidence? you have 2 gameplay videos of a fire render that does the same to most materials such as wood included, which all burn ridiculously fast, theres a consistency in the rendering that either things burn fast for the sake of gameplay or burn fast because of the SR environment. Further, Kain is different because he is millions of times more durable, you cannot melt down something so durable, not in time. This is not a turn based fight where Kain has to wait for bowser to choose another form of attack before doing an action, Kain can instantly go between mist form and solid, I have yet to see reason to belive Bowser can instantly go between suction and fire.

Correction: I have two cutscenes of fire near instantly killing two powerful vampires. Further, please prove that durability relates in any way to fire resistance. Bowser is effectively immune to lava, you imply that this would make him much more durable than Kain, more than he already is. BTW, are you seriously arguing that Bowser can't switch attacks because his game is turn based? That's pretty funny, actually. Though I do hope you realize Bowser has inhale solid creatures around Kain's size, such a Princess Peach, amazon that she may be.

The gas consists of a few little ignitions and the fire burns first to the center for a good few seconds, so no gas ignites to fill the room, its the combustion of fire striking the center that makes it explode.

And the center is also spewing gas, which predictably proceeds to explode. Besides, Dumah catches fire before it explodes, so it doesn't even matter anyway.

Well its proven he can exert more than enough force than Bowser can survive, which is so far nothing really gaugable.

It's not like you really need to gauge them to tell they're above what Kain can do. Even the Bob-Omb explosion throwing him across the continent is clearly above Kain, and it's probably one of the weaker ones.

Yeh, you know that was concering the soul card, its a gameplay mechanic, most bosses are immune to one hit kills and until you can prove it canonically happens your wasting our time.

Yeah, you know that was concerning the dimensional reaver, its a gameplay mechanic, most bosses are immune to it and until you can prove it canonically happens you're wasting our time.

How can a completly different scene overwrite/retcon a FMV previous? it cannot, it has different situations involved. Although I dont know how you spamming this claim is going to convince me.

It's a rather simply matter of consistency. The Defiance heart rip is inconsistent with the Soul Reaver 2 claw attack, so usually the later game takes precedence. This is typically called a retcon. Since we know that Raziel can damage Kain, Soul Reaver 2's cutscene doesn't make much sense.

Whats them not being here have anything to do with it? developers know more about their series as do I, yet you apprently think your a know it all so I have to use developers who know even more than I do. Also prove they were talking about the crease across Kains chest? because in the Q/A it is refered to as Kains death scar, the one made by Raziel is the only one where Kain is refered to or thought of as dead, considering he had lost the only piece of him that would push him into death.

Well, you're to pretend that the developers are on your side, when in reality they wouldn't give a crap about a vs. debate. It's like an appeal to authority, except you're making up things you hope they would say. You don't think Kain's "death scar" is the one he got when he died? When he was killed by assassins? Instead, you think it is the hole that Kain did not actually die from? I've got to admit I don't understand your logic here.

There's what actually happens, and then there's what is more advantageous to Kain. I prefer the former.

Do we? because the last time I checked it was a scripted event that was used by the ability, it cannot even be a mechanic. Thats not really gaugable, give me an actual figuire, tbh it does not look like a feat at all since again when he lands he does not real damage to the environment. They restarted the universe ergo their physical forces are incredibly powerful? what are you even talking about, I hope you know because you need to explain this.

Last time I checked the catch card was scripted event that was used by the item, so it looks like it can't be mechanics either. For the explosion feat, just consider if Kain could replicate it. Since the answer is no, it's better than what Kain can dish out. As for the black hole, just watch the scene. After the supernova absorbs the nearby planetoids and implodes, making the black holes that destroys all the nearby ships, the lumas jump into it. Eventually you see pretty much everything else not Mario just get sucked into the hourglass shaped thing, which proceeds to Big Bang a new universe. Then Bowser stands up with a headache. I don't see how you can possibly see that as unimpressive.

You cannot keep saying "your evidence", evidence for what? it seems to me most of my evidence has been covered, your still struggling with the scraps your trying to find, claiming your interpretations as fact (you like doing this, good old pride and arrogence) and then pretending its cold hard facts against someone who actually knows the series.

Do you have a point or will you just continue your flaming? All I asked was for you to provide evidence.

But the dimension reaver is a static, scripted event. Theres nothing with bowsers speed other than him flying around in SMG that is canon, happens and cannot be argued against. You rely on too many actual mechanics, when the dimention reaver although present in gameplay, is not a gamepaly mechanic, you have a problem with this whole difference between what is and is not a mechanic it seems.

I know what a mechanic is, obviously, since you've demonstrated multiple times:

Game mechanic = Whatever I don't want the opponent to use.

Scripted event = A game mechanic that I want to use.

See, the catch card is obviously a scripted event, while the dimension reaver is a game mechanic. Simple.

Hang on, Kain suggests the human mind is fragile therefore you claim he can only use it on human minds? you need to prove Bowsers mind is less fragile than a humans, which is the correct logical path.

Yes, Kain can only shock human minds, because human minds are the only thing Kain states are vulnerable to the shock. Simple. It works on nothing nonhuman.

So you admit you cannot prove he has no blood, coolio.

Yes, it's difficult (actually logically impossible) to prove a negative. All I can do is show you the entire game and note the lack of blood. On the other hand, I could ask you to prove he does have blood, which you cannot do.

I dont know what your saying here, you seem to be rambling. Some things can be slow for a bullet. Also i like how your reaching again, how apprently your feat is not good enough therefore I am not seeing what your talking about ,theres no durability to mension, we dont know the forces here. Where I can point out in a calculation that Kain can take 9 million tons PSI without harm, wheres your calculation for this black hole? so far I see weak sauce objects being pulled in, slowly....I doubt half of those objects even weigh in the millions of tons, let alone have a durability to equel it.

Way to miss the point. Even the slowest bullet is still stupidly fast, just like even the weakest black hole is stupidly strong. You're the one trying to downplay everything, when even a cursory glance can tell the forces involved are stronger than Kain. Planetoids are being pulled and crushed, followed by it imploding into a black hole that tears ships and space stations apart. Calculations on this would be pointless and wasting time.

Two unproven claims.

Both proven.

The slow moving sonic blasts it fires are a mechanic, like a lot of in-game projectiles. Also, unlike the dimension reaver which is scripted, you need to prove the actual dodging is scripted, also saying their still as fast as sound is a leap of logic, since we cannot see that. Its also interesting to note the SM characters can be harmed by loud music, seems their ****ed against Kains varied powers and a sword.

So you're ignoring canon statements that they fire blasts of sound. Got it, no need to say any more.

Its unclear why there are peasants there, evidence suggests three things, A; gameplay mechanic, peasents have to be there for a health source for Kain, its not actually canonically mentioned by Kain or others iirc. B; Humans, creatures and weather are mentioned to be affected, so the reason why these specific people are not could be explained by the fact the circle simply use some slaves/people to experiment on. C, finally, it could be only the outer bubble that Kain walks through that changes the world as it passes over it and these peasents were put there after.

None of which change the fact that peasants are inside and untransformed, thereby making it a worthless feat. Your C point doesn't actually make sense.

Nothing claims that, so its an amazing feat. Your playing on Kains "theories" on why he was not affected I assume?

And that it doesn't seem to affet anyone else, so it doesn't matter much.

😆 a few little stars into cards=an entire region/country tranformed in many different ways, both weather, ground and beast was warped yet you think its not as impressive. You are easily the most stubborn KMC member, at least I change certain points, I think if it was anyone other than me you would agree but because you "have to" continue due to pride whatever, we will waste more time on this.

The size of the transformed area doesn't affect the power of the transformation. The fact that humans are not even affected is a sure indicator that the effect is weaker than you believe. Bowser, on the other hand, turned 7 very powerful spirits known for granting wishes into cards. The Star Spirits are, of course, capable of healing, putting creatures to sleep, calling down meteor showers, disabling abilities, stopping time, and transforming creatures into helpless stars. Trying to downplay them as "little stars" is not going to help you.

You are also ignoring that Bowser canonically transform the people of the Mushrrom Kingdom into bricks and horsehair plants in one game.

Well thats the point, despite its power (far more than the less than 50% more that bowser has over Raziels) it can never penetrate the tank.

It's rather more like a pistol versus a bazooka and the tank is highly flammable, but I think BloodRain did a nice job.

Originally posted by BloodRain

Ohh right, this and another forums band of posters decided something apprently so it becomes the forums undeniable rules. Stop trying to shove unknown rules made by users witohut authority who dont have a say down my throat, I dont have to accept their illogical fallacies.

So? His arms being out were calculated, hes not a meter wide without them being out. Also you did not answer me, why is 40 pixels=2meters? Also you have added to the sphere in your image, a bit of guesswork. If you pause the ball as it flies from the cannon you can see the little cross at the very top of the screen in the image is where the diameter is.

Thats nothing to do with tought, I simply conceded to the fact it was being used so i thought I would join in. Energy still comes from them, the fact that their source is different cannot be argued with one and not the other, again your argument does not hold up, saviour beign a statue makes no difference, both of their potential energy is still A, regardless of source.

No, everyone in here is argueing each feat as accuratly as they can to PSI, mass, weight etc, all of that goes out the window if they dont use velocity properly, or use momentum. As I said, I dont have to play by their rules. 😆 I like how you keep saying, annoyingly so over and over "go and ask about it", you go and ask about it because their not moderators, I can ignore their illogical fallacies.

So did I (phone timer, same thing), you know what? floor to chest and then push=1 second, the actual part up to his chest takes less than a second to do. Them being seperate still does not stop the fact Raziel made it happen, it was still at/above his head before he pushes it anyway.

Well were going to have to agree to disagree, you keep claiming the opposite to what I do is getting nowhere. Bowser never stood straight and just took the whole force without moving, he was straining on the ground, he could if he tried stroke the dirt with his chin.

Joules= massxvelocity squared, velocity is not always the same therefore energy can change. As I said, neither you or anyone else in a forum can change physics, if they dont want to use it anymore because they dont like it then tough, they brought it up.

Its actually under a second, 0;51 I got for Raziels chest. The weight on him is irrelevent because hes pushing it a meter or so, we know the weight of the frustum, it does not take its own weight until he pushes it over the threshhold.

"is the only method", but you cant use speed so its a damn shame you only have the base weight of saviour for Dante, because SP told you, you cant use momentum 🙁 . Well I could say the same, I will just copy and paste your line its good enough; "You only see holes where you want to see them or if it looks wrong to something you got, thats nothing to actual analysing and correcting" Well no, you have not really, not even close. You just spam something not really relevent.

You are proving your arrogence in the belief your math is superior so trying to claim your not is a denial. But as I said, yours is in fault, and according to you most of KMC is, because their cutting out a piece of physics apprently, a pretty important piece. And no, go and re-think why I should pander to the flawed and fallacious ideals of a forum base I dont respect, then argue the same for yourself rather than just accepting it.

Originally posted by The Scenario

Yes I tought as much, he does not use it against anything durable. Paper mario, some sort of puppet, he does not use it in bowsers inside story, we dont even know if he has much strength in those other games by comparison.

Is it? you dont really know what your talking about do you....Raziel never canonically attempts to damage Melchiah with his claws...again, boss battle/gamepaly mechanics tripping you up, I admit it works both ways and in both games.

I dont need a better theory to defeat your already lackluster theory, your the one actually trying to prove something with a theory, not me. I am making suggestions, the objects are fairly aero dynamic at the back. But Raziels 9 million tons of force PSI cannot slice through them, hes looking for ways to kill them otherwise.

Regen is consistent, that does not negate the fact Raziel cannot cut them in half or make a wound they cannot survive from, e.g. ripped in half, which is more than humans can do. Also Bowsers nails a few cm in size, hows he going to impale anyone?

Because irl stronger materials take longer to melt, their particles being more dense/closer aligned, Kain has skin thousands of times stronger than diamond, Steel, titanium and they take ridiculous temps to melt. No I dont....and no, I am saying Kain is not turn based therefore hes not waiting for bowser to change moves. But not as strong as Kain, e.g. able to resist.

It matters because it burns with incredible heat, from the furnace. Also I dont recall the gas coming from the center, show me again plz. If it was a gas made fire throughout the place it would happen instantly, not combust in a ball like high pressure heat.

So what your saying is, their above Kain, were not going to gauge them but its clear! 😆 , maybe I wont gauge any of the feats, Kains simply clearly above them. Thats pretty much what your doing right now, showing more stubborn and fan love than I have ever done.

Childish, no counter. Your credability dropped a load.

We know that in the Defiance context, e.g. Kain weakene and slashed by the wraith blade which makes him bleed on-screen can make Kain vulnerable to things full power Kain in the FMV before is completly invulnerable to. As I said, you dont know what a retcon is, so you can add that to the fact you dont know what a lot of game mechanics are as well.

Not sure Kain has a death scar from his assasination if you look above, you can see his whole chest without a scar. The image you showed before showed a massive dark line across Elder Kains chest suggesting it may have been mortanius putting the heart of darkness in Kain that gave the scar but the above image shows no scar at all 😕 Further, elder Kain has a lot of dark lines, cracks and other things on his body, it could be just part of the design.

Also, this proves that its not the lack of a heart that halts Kains own vampire regeneration, since he did not heal his chest by himself or his scar. I wonder,if its the fact Raziel broke so deep into Kains body that he could not heal the area as perfectly as normal vampires heal flesh deep attacks.

Originally posted by The Scenario

But its not an item, its a spell that the mechanics have no influence over since technically the player is not even playing while it happens, you cannot stop or change the animation or those it affects. Because its on a scale of such low gravity, that their weights are less than Kain has used through force (each planetoid is probably not much bigger than a large house). Also, both bowser, mario and pretty much all of them get up because the fairy thing aids them, its arguable if the black hole even touched them.

You did it again 😆 evidence for what precifically!!? Saints alive 🙄

What the dimension reaver does is scripted, a mechanic is something that alters how players interact with the universe, for example health bars, bosses that take a specific tactic to beat. Another example is Kratos from God of War, he has proven to be more than strong enoguh to ear almost any bosses in piecies but he still has to play by the mechanics which state each boss has a tactic.

He states human minds are fragile, thats nothing to imply no other mind is fragile. Your making the hasty generalisation fallacy.

I did provide evidnece he has blood, the fact his body environment is red, suggesting blood is flowing through it. Tbh, I dont have to prove Bowser has blood more so than anyone else has to prove a character does, if its a bio organism, especially a dinosoid sort of creature it has blood of some form.

The whole thing is wasting time, your reaching, your claims of it being superior to Kain without any real evidence. You dont have a case other than "its clearly stronger", the planetoids are small and so is mario, it cannot suck in mario at all it seems until the end. You have no gauge, your just saying "its stwongerz so there!"

One, gameplay mechanic, two the sonic waves in marios world move at like, a cm a second.....thats slow as hell but again, gameplay mechanic.

You did not counter me here, and I refered to it as "sonic blasts" so reading comprehension ftw.

Yeh again, you ignored my points and just claimed the same thing you did before, I think I should start being as lazy as you and not actually debate, just keep saying "wrong, not a feat!" alongside my "Kains clearly more powerfulz, i dont have ot prove anything".

Yes because Kains comment on humans and beasts, the weather and the terrain itself being affected was just some in-game comedy to be ignored.

It shows its more powerful, a nuclear bomb is more powerful than a smaller one more so because its area can wipe out far far more. It affects weather, beast and man. Oh please, their counter to bowser was simply squeeking in terror, tehy did not even try to do anything.

I guess we dont know how long this took, or how he did it? can we see him doing it or is it ambigious? e.g., dark eden is a expanding zone of reality warping magic, Bowsers brick transformation consists of?

Well of course you would think so, hes your aid. I wonder if I just got a few guys I know to come on here and simply agree with me and re-hash my old points I would be able to ignore arguments like you do.

Much obliged, Scene. See, he uses claws. Its the same in SSB.

And when did I become Scene's aid? O.o

Originally posted by Burning thought
So? His arms being out were calculated, hes not a meter wide without them being out. Also you did not answer me, why is 40 pixels=2meters? Also you have added to the sphere in your image, a bit of guesswork. If you pause the ball as it flies from the cannon you can see the little cross at the very top of the screen in the image is where the diameter is.

Furthermore in the image you gave the line you used is 5.25x Bowser's standing height of 2m. Even with the football *coughrugbycough* shape the diameter would still be 10.5m.

Originally posted by Burning thought
So did I (phone timer, same thing), you know what? floor to chest and then push=1 second, the actual part up to his chest takes less than a second to do. Them being seperate still does not stop the fact Raziel made it happen, it was still at/above his head before he pushes it anyway.

Its actually under a second, 0;51 I got for Raziels chest. The weight on him is irrelevent because hes pushing it a meter or so, we know the weight of the frustum, it does not take its own weight until he pushes it over the threshhold.

Photoshop is buggy on my laptop so you'll have to... tilt your head make the baseline parallel to the ground <.< >.> The orange section is the weight over the axis thats ready to fall down due to gravity and a push. By my calculations..... [[base of 350cm*350cm*height of 655cm to the 1400cm whole height]/ 2 for half a cuboid volume]*2.6 density=..... the blue section weights 115 tons of the overall 300 tons.

In other words about 62% of the weight was over the axis' tipping point, so Raziel would only have to have moved 38% of the weight/115 tons. And even at this point even the slightest tip would make gravity do the majority of the work with Raziel giving minimal. Like I said, the clean > the jerk.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Well were going to have to agree to disagree, you keep claiming the opposite to what I do is getting nowhere. Bowser never stood straight and just took the whole force without moving, he was straining on the ground, he could if he tried stroke the dirt with his chin.

6,451 tons = 5,852,248.76 kg

11.25^2 = 126.5625

(5852248.76*126.5625)/2 = 370,337,617 J ie 370MJ

Bowser gets a nice 136% increase in force since the last calc.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Ohh right, this and another forums band of posters decided something apprently so it becomes the forums undeniable rules. Stop trying to shove unknown rules made by users witohut authority who dont have a say down my throat, I dont have to accept their illogical fallacies.
Thats nothing to do with tought, I simply conceded to the fact it was being used so i thought I would join in. Energy still comes from them, the fact that their source is different cannot be argued with one and not the other, again your argument does not hold up, saviour beign a statue makes no difference, both of their potential energy is still A, regardless of source.
No, everyone in here is argueing each feat as accuratly as they can to PSI, mass, weight etc, all of that goes out the window if they dont use velocity properly, or use momentum. As I said, I dont have to play by their rules. :laughingfaceislaughing: I like how you keep saying, annoyingly so over and over "go and ask about it", you go and ask about it because their not moderators, I can ignore their illogical fallacies.
Joules= massxvelocity squared, velocity is not always the same therefore energy can change. As I said, neither you or anyone else in a forum can change physics, if they dont want to use it anymore because they dont like it then tough, they brought it up.
"is the only method", but you cant use speed so its a damn shame you only have the base weight of saviour for Dante, because SP told you, you cant use momentum 😖adfaceissad: . Well I could say the same, I will just copy and paste your line its good enough; "You only see holes where you want to see them or if it looks wrong to something you got, thats nothing to actual analysing and correcting" Well no, you have not really, not even close. You just spam something not really relevent.
You are proving your arrogence in the belief your math is superior so trying to claim your not is a denial. But as I said, yours is in fault, and according to you most of KMC is, because their cutting out a piece of physics apprently, a pretty important piece. And no, go and re-think why I should pander to the flawed and fallacious ideals of a forum base I dont respect, then argue the same for yourself rather than just accepting it.

If ya don't mind, roughly all the same stuff anyhow:

1. Speed for a non-organism that can't generate its own force. We both know the Savior point you wanted backfired as it relies on an organism vs statue, so if you want to forget you said it that'll be fine. (Also like how of all the names you chose SP :3)

2. If I was arrogant or superior in my maths I wouldn't have corrected myself countless times. But you're more than welcome to hate on me as I'm not the one in the vs thread~ And nup, you math has already been analysed, hence the discussion of extra velocity. But thanks for the quote compliment. ^^

3. You're arguing for Real Life Physics, whats being used in these fictitious debates is Fictitious Physics. See, RL-Physics cant be used here as there would be countless flaws and illogical things happening that would be impossible by RL standards. F-Physics on the other hand has to let some illogical things slide in order to make sense of a feat scientifically. For instance: RL-Physics wouldnt use a feat of Sonic running up a wall as its impossible, Kratos stopping a charging beast without being knocked back, any FTL feats, Link lifting a pillar without it crumbling in his hands etc anything not scientifically possible will be thrown out.

So you can either except RL-Physics completely and disallow any and every feat thats impossible IRL which would take away 90% of feats, or you can go by F-Physics. More importantly... stop shooting the messenger >-> Like Ive repeated before, ask the others about it. Because seriously, what're you going to gain from telling me that you don't want to go by it? We'd only argue, that way you can at least get answers or a chance to change it.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Much obliged, Scene. See, he uses claws. Its the same in SSB.

And when did I become Scene's aid? O.o

Then how you got to 1.5m is a wonder. Think about it using your own image; Mario is 152cm tall and you can fit two Mario's into the width you gave Bowser. You have 7 Mario's worth in the diameter you gave[3.5 Bowser widths], 7*1.52m=10.64m. I didn't answer you 'cos you never asked about the 40pix... in fact, I just posted about it. 40pix is Bowser's height of 2m. Really? Guess work? Its a circle, the original image is a circle and the curves match up perfectly. Thats the size of the ball. Let me get this straight, you think the cross is the where the center is? OK, lets take a look-see....
...Yeah, still think my one is much more accurate;

Furthermore in the image you gave the line you used is 5.25x Bowser's standing height of 2m. Even with the football *coughrugbycough* shape the diameter would still be 10.5m.

Then I dont know what youre counting. Actually I'm not even going to look at the jerk part as its end result is below the clean portion. And yes the weight upon the axis is crucial for the jerk as less force is needed to tip a weight thats over its own tipping point. On the clip you posted he begins the lift at near enough right on 3:31 and its by his chest by 3:32. 1.4m/s.
To reiterate the axis point:

Photoshop is buggy on my laptop so you'll have to... tilt your head make the baseline parallel to the ground <.< >.> The orange section is the weight over the axis thats ready to fall down due to gravity and a push. By my calculations..... [[base of 350cm*350cm*height of 655cm to the 1400cm whole height]/ 2 for half a cuboid volume]*2.6 density=..... the blue section weights 115 tons of the overall 300 tons.

In other words about 62% of the weight was over the axis' tipping point, so Raziel would only have to have moved 38% of the weight/115 tons. And even at this point even the slightest tip would make gravity do the majority of the work with Raziel giving minimal. Like I said, the clean > the jerk.

Missing the main thing here; Did the force overwhelm him or did he still manage to stand there holding it? If the former, like it is, then it requires the strength to do so. And now that we have the proper weight and diameter we can to the proper calc;

6,451 tons = 5,852,248.76 kg

11.25^2 = 126.5625

(5852248.76*126.5625)/2 = 370,337,617 J ie 370MJ

Bowser gets a nice 136% increase in force since the last calc.

If ya don't mind, roughly all the same stuff anyhow:

1. Speed for a non-organism that can't generate its own force. We both know the Savior point you wanted backfired as it relies on an organism vs statue, so if you want to forget you said it that'll be fine. (Also like how of all the names you chose SP :3)

2. If I was arrogant or superior in my maths I wouldn't have corrected myself countless times. But you're more than welcome to hate on me as I'm not the one in the vs thread~ And nup, you math has already been analysed, hence the discussion of extra velocity. But thanks for the quote compliment. ^^

3. You're arguing for Real Life Physics, whats being used in these fictitious debates is Fictitious Physics. See, RL-Physics cant be used here as there would be countless flaws and illogical things happening that would be impossible by RL standards. F-Physics on the other hand has to let some illogical things slide in order to make sense of a feat scientifically. For instance: RL-Physics wouldnt use a feat of Sonic running up a wall as its impossible, Kratos stopping a charging beast without being knocked back, any FTL feats, Link lifting a pillar without it crumbling in his hands etc anything not scientifically possible will be thrown out.

So you can either except RL-Physics completely and disallow any and every feat thats impossible IRL which would take away 90% of feats, or you can go by F-Physics. More importantly... stop shooting the messenger >-> Like Ive repeated before, ask the others about it. Because seriously, what're you going to gain from telling me that you don't want to go by it? We'd only argue, that way you can at least get answers or a chance to change it.

As unusual as your image makes it look the cross is still roughply where the center is;

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Also based on this, bowser is not much bigger than Mario, probably 6 feet max. NOt sure where you got 2 meters from because as shown above Mario is based on those scenes not much smaller. Wheres your comparison of mario to Bowser so I can compare? I want to know what makes you think inside story bowser is so much larger. Concerning the crouching Bowser with the ball on him, you can probably just about fit one mario in that.

So whats your point here? it still makes him stronger to use that energy than if you just calculate the chest area. Also where are you getting 1.4 for the chest for? Also your not making much sense because if the majority of the weight was on the other side, it would fall by itself, not wait for Raziel to push it so clearly he is still working with majority weight.

He did not manage to stand there holding it, it did overwhelm but not completly crush him. Well proper in your opinion, as shown above the small cross in near the diameter, you have added a lot more. You have still to prove the 11 meters/s thing as well, its more a durability/absorbtion feat alike to Kratos' super anchoring than strength.

Its still not enough to do much more than scrape Kains top layer of skin, at best.

1. Did not counter anything here, just stated the same thing. Its force=weightxvelockty squared, just like how an organism in this case is strength+weightxvelocity squared, only according to you velocity is irrelevent.

2. Well its not extra velocity, its real velocity that changed when Raziel uses force. You cannot choose what velocity (that of the frustum after Raziel moved it, or that of the Sphere for bowser, that of Saviours arm) we actualy calculate and ignore the rest.

3. Its all ficticious, nothing in the rules states velocity is not part of it. It does not make sense scientfically if your letting things slide, technically a lot of things form mass, to weight to density does not work here, we dont ignore them however otherwise theres no point in using the feat at all or math to calc it, its the same with velocity, you dont get force without velocity, only mass.

How much are they paying you to be a messenger? and your not just a messenger, your using their claims as evidence for me to apprently not use real science in my workings. Energy calculations wont work without velocity, so you can either throw the whole strength feat out OR use velocity. Further, most LoK feats are fairly feasable, they dont consider thousands of tons only a few hundred, the frustum being the heaviest thing in a feat in Lok so far.

Originally posted by Burning thought
As unusual as your image makes it look the cross is still roughply where the center is;

~~PICCUS~~~

Also based on this, bowser is not much bigger than Mario, probably 6 feet max. NOt sure where you got 2 meters from because as shown above Mario is based on those scenes not much smaller. Wheres your comparison of mario to Bowser so I can compare? I want to know what makes you think inside story bowser is so much larger. Concerning the crouching Bowser with the ball on him, you can probably just about fit one mario in that.

Haha, Im thinking 2m in that scene is good enough, right? Oh and its 5ft, not 4.9.

Originally posted by Burning thought
So whats your point here? it still makes him stronger to use that energy than if you just calculate the chest area. Also where are you getting 1.4 for the chest for? Also your not making much sense because if the majority of the weight was on the other side, it would fall by itself, not wait for Raziel to push it so clearly he is still working with majority weight.

Originally posted by Burning thought
He did not manage to stand there holding it, it did overwhelm but not completly crush him. Well proper in your opinion, as shown above the small cross in near the diameter, you have added a lot more. You have still to prove the 11 meters/s thing as well, its more a durability/absorbtion feat alike to Kratos' super anchoring than strength.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Its still not enough to do much more than scrape Kains top layer of skin, at best.

Originally posted by Burning thought
1. Did not counter anything here, just stated the same thing. Its force=weightxvelockty squared, just like how an organism in this case is strength+weightxvelocity squared, only according to you velocity is irrelevent.

Originally posted by Burning thought
2. Well its not extra velocity, its real velocity that changed when Raziel uses force. You cannot choose what velocity (that of the frustum after Raziel moved it, or that of the Sphere for bowser, that of Saviours arm) we actualy calculate and ignore the rest.

Originally posted by Burning thought
3. Its all ficticious, nothing in the rules states velocity is not part of it. It does not make sense scientfically if your letting things slide, technically a lot of things form mass, to weight to density does not work here, we dont ignore them however otherwise theres no point in using the feat at all or math to calc it, its the same with velocity, you dont get force without velocity, only mass.

Originally posted by Burning thought
How much are they paying you to be a messenger? and your not just a messenger, your using their claims as evidence for me to apprently not use real science in my workings. Energy calculations wont work without velocity, so you can either throw the whole strength feat out OR use velocity. Further, most LoK feats are fairly feasable, they dont consider thousands of tons only a few hundred, the frustum being the heaviest thing in a feat in Lok so far.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Assuming the ball didn't, y'know, turn. Or maybe how the first cross is much larger than in the next scene. Are you honestly going to look at the image I posted and say that the circle is wrong? If the center was where you thought i was it would not be a ball. If it was a bit above it then it would not be a ball. Unless its on the line I showed then its wont be a ball. Here:

Haha, Im thinking 2m in that scene is good enough, right? Oh and its 5ft, not 4.9.

No... no it wouldn't. Clean: Lifting 100% of the weight up to the chest. Jerk: Pushing 38% of the weight over the tipping point. No matter how you look at it Raziel didnt have the whole weight on him nor would he have to do the majority of work.
From 80% of Raziel's full height, Ive said this already.

If he's still standing, he can take it. Thats clear. And dear lord no, look at that football image for a second will ya. Thats what it will look like if its where you think it is. Now look back to my one. Is it not a perfect circle that matches the curves of the image already there?

Lol cool story bro. You know why no one has believed this part? Its because there is no way besides faults that Bowser who has Raziel's strength being literally a percentage of his will struggle to harm Kain.

HoYay~ Nup, organisms can generate strength while statues cant. In this case its the same as a large rock falling on him, no difference.

Youre just adding the same thing from down there up here. Stop increasing the point.

Its the un-written rules of F-Physics. All that you said there, nothing to do with what I said.
A. Don't apply physics to vs forums.
B. Follow perfect physics and discount everything not irl.
C. Follow the physics used and asking other people about your queries.
D. Do your own thing and not expecting anyone else to take your word.

Yup, Im just relaying the general practice around here while finding a way to make you understand aka a chatty messenger. Lets see.. the obelisk doesnt break when hitting the ground so it cant be as compact as granite so it must be more or less compact. But it bounced, so it must be less and thus lighter. And also when Raziel hit Kain he didnt go flying through the wall like a hit from 272KJ would do, so actually the energy in that scene would come from the speed at which Kain was sent back... IRL physics would not allow the things you want, logically speaking. Go and ask ever.... ah fine, I'll ask for you. >__> Double messenger...

It does not matter if it turned or not, their similiar size, if it looks bigger before then perhaps the angle is dodgy, either way its the cross and its on the diameter, you cant get around those facts by claiming it has to be a ball, perhaps its not a perfect sphere afterall and it was at a funny angle before, the shape it looks can look different from certain angles but that cross cannot change.

Prove he only had 38% of the weight, theres no reason to belive more weight, 62% of the weight could not move itself, but it did not so clearly theres more on raziels side than you realise. And Raziels full height you math at about 5ft+, not the character average of 6ft most characters, from Link and Dante etc are typically mathed at?

Hes not standing, hes more or less crawling. Who says its a perfect circle? because the marks on the iron ball do not add up with your claim that its a perfect sphere of your dimensions, clearly the angle is at fault and your overhyping the feat.

Only Raziel cannot harm Kain with his strength either, so your simply assuming 46% more force will be more than enough to pierce Kains outer skin layer. Your also talking shit again, Kains outer skin layer can take 133889576 MPa PSI without any damage at all, if bowser has enough to scrape it off, its no different than a light scrape, yet you think you have evidence to suggest he can "wreck" kain. Bowsers going to be lucky if he gets to Kains muscles, let alone his bones 😉 facts "bro".

Yeh force is still calculated more or less the same, only as I said without strength, just weight. Read my post.

no, its you being sore over having your theory on Dante shot down then claiming everyone is going to just agree with whom shot you down, I dont have to and if they want to toss physics and math out the window then fine, no strength feats and durabilities are cool by Kain who never needed them before the math train came along.

😆 the general practice, do you realise I have been here far longer than most of the primary posters here? including you, scenario, SP and to "general knowledge" Nemebro 😉 , if anyone knows general practice its me and ignoring physics is not it. Being sore because someone shot down your point is however, general practice apprently. The whole obelisk does not bounce, the thin end/pyramid comes up with the heavier bottom, this does not really change the feat. Kain did not do that for the same reason a cutting knife with a nano edge blade does not launch you through the air when you use it, its over a tiny area which was, as shown absorbed by kain in that tiny area but he did go flying back. You can ask all you want, I wont bend physics unless everyone agrees to toss math out the window as it would be a pointless practice to do the math if we take stuff out physics just dont work. Debating with people on here is pointless enough.

Originally posted by Burning thought
It does not matter if it turned or not, their similiar size, if it looks bigger before then perhaps the angle is dodgy, either way its the cross and its on the diameter, you cant get around those facts by claiming it has to be a ball, perhaps its not a perfect sphere afterall and it was at a funny angle before, the shape it looks can look different from certain angles but that cross cannot change.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Prove he only had 38% of the weight, theres no reason to belive more weight, 62% of the weight could not move itself, but it did not so clearly theres more on raziels side than you realise. And Raziels full height you math at about 5ft+, not the character average of 6ft most characters, from Link and Dante etc are typically mathed at?

Originally posted by Burning thought
Hes not standing, hes more or less crawling. Who says its a perfect circle? because the marks on the iron ball do not add up with your claim that its a perfect sphere of your dimensions, clearly the angle is at fault and your overhyping the feat.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Only Raziel cannot harm Kain with his strength either, so your simply assuming 46% more force will be more than enough to pierce Kains outer skin layer. Your also talking shit again, Kains outer skin layer can take 133889576 MPa PSI without any damage at all, if bowser has enough to scrape it off, its no different than a light scrape, yet you think you have evidence to suggest he can "wreck" kain. Bowsers going to be lucky if he gets to Kains muscles, let alone his bones 😉 facts "bro".

Originally posted by Burning thought
Yeh force is still calculated more or less the same, only as I said without strength, just weight. Read my post.

Originally posted by Burning thought
no, its you being sore over having your theory on Dante shot down then claiming everyone is going to just agree with whom shot you down, I dont have to and if they want to toss physics and math out the window then fine, no strength feats and durabilities are cool by Kain who never needed them before the math train came along.

Originally posted by Burning thought
😆 the general practice, do you realise I have been here far longer than most of the primary posters here? including you, scenario, SP and to "general knowledge" Nemebro 😉 , if anyone knows general practice its me and ignoring physics is not it. Being sore because someone shot down your point is however, general practice apprently. The whole obelisk does not bounce, the thin end/pyramid comes up with the heavier bottom, this does not really change the feat. Kain did not do that for the same reason a cutting knife with a nano edge blade does not launch you through the air when you use it, its over a tiny area which was, as shown absorbed by kain in that tiny area but he did go flying back. You can ask all you want, I wont bend physics unless everyone agrees to toss math out the window as it would be a pointless practice to do the math if we take stuff out physics just dont work. Debating with people on here is pointless enough.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Actually you can clearly see that the former is much larger, and yes if it turned it wouldnt be in the same position now would it? Its painfully cleat that the diameter is not where you think it is.. unless you think a giant iron football fell on him...

Ok then... oh wait I already did that two posts ago. 38% over him, 62% over the axis ie not over him. And yup, his 1.75m/5ft9in height.

And how is he more or less crawling if he wasnt brought down to his hands knees... at all. Unless squatting means lying down to you. He's standing, so he took it. Is it not a circle with curves matching the curves in the image? I wouldnt mind you stating here right now that in the image I posted that the circle in no way possible matches up to the circle curves in the pic. Not even in the slightest. And I'd rather you address the image this time. So far your only defense is the mark, a mark that you cannot prove is the same one and cannot prove that the ball stayed in the exact same position as when it was flying in the air.

Yeah, totally avoiding the question. Like that 46% thing, no ones buying it though. Two guys with roughly the same area. The area is 1.5x in one guys favour, the joules are 1361x in the other guys favour. Yet you make it so that the difference is only 146% for Bowser. It makes sense if you were to ignore his vast strength. Lol oh sorry 'bout that, I forgot you were sensitive to the names -w- But nah, being over a thousand times stronger than his best durability feat is all thats needed.
-Raziel hit Kain with <1% of the force Bowser has, therefor Bowser cant hurt him either-
One of the one statement here is false.

Read my posts and I'll read yours.

Lol not sure if you can even hear yourself. Its not being sour its being sensible. Would I like to have Dante at 10x strength backed with a 25,000,000 velocity? Sure, it'd rape everyone he's been up against here. Am I going to cry about it to get it? God no, it aint worth it or even that important tbh. Ive got nothing to lose and lots to gain if I just sided with you right now. If youre trying to convince anyone then yeah, you do. If no one accepts your maths then there's no point for your maths, right? Ahah, sure.

Do you realise that you were 100% against math for your time here until 'after' all those people were doing it? And and all the math users youre currently the last one to get in on the game, so.... you were saying o seasoned one? Hehe :3 your frustration is showing~ Lol wow someone needs to rewatch the scene. If it was due to the tip then the base could need to rise as well. So no, it wasnt the tip.. it bounced. Now that aint real. Nope its the 1st and 3rd laws of motion. For ever action there is an equal and opposite reaction. So IRL Kain would exert an equal force in the opposite direction of the attack. No organism type thing can absorb so much force that they would not be sent flying from the attack. That'd be against Newton's laws. You do realise that the only reason for maths here is to get others to accept your calcs for a feat.. if you dont want anyone to take your maths, then whats the point in calcing?

So your claim is that somehow the cross got smaller on the way down? stop reaching please, its a cross clearly seen before, and after and its clearly at the diameter. Well I dont know about football but if thats its shape then so be it, I cannot argue with the facts.

Explain why the 62% of weight on the other side did not fall by itself? if its heavier on the side its supposed to be falling on? whats this height based on? why not 6ft like most games vs generally are, more lowballing?

Well squating until your almost on the floor is close enough tbh. You just said hes squating now hes standing? get your own story right please. It looks exactly the same, we can see there are no other marks on the object that look the same, your theory to try and protect your own belief on the objects shape is that now its apprently got plenty of crosses on it.

I am not buying into your stuff either, again you imply an appeal to audiance fallacy therefore less credible claim 🙁 . Well the calculation clearly points out only 146%, also if you watched Scenarios videos its divided over 4 claws since he sort of holds his hand like a karate chop with all fingers+thumb in the strike. I admit, the percentage may be slightly different if I calced Raziel only moving the obelisk 2/3 meters rather than 4 but not by much, and not enough to make a difference for bowsers success on Kain. Where are you pulling 1% from? seriously....what nonsense, and htis is the top skin layer, you realise this is purely on his claws so hes going to have to stand there scratching Kain like a cat, making small cuts until he hits bone and shatters his claws.

Whats this some arrogant sarcasm again? its being sour, your shot down so you think everyone else has to follow what you bowed your head to. I doubt it, Kain would still take him out but anyway. And if you dont convince your opposition (me at the moment) of your math then theres no point in it right? yet you still do it so your thesis collapses.

You know nothing about my time here, youve been here for a fraction of the time, me being again it is irrelevent, its not a general practice if its just been made up by newcomers is it silly. 😆 so is your flawed grasp on replies, you have to try and make quibs to keep up. Re-read the laws, nano thickness knives do not launch their users into the air, or explode the piecies their cutting. Whats the point? to get a factual answer, I am not going to cut physics up because a few angry fans dont like it.

Originally posted by Burning thought
So your claim is that somehow the cross got smaller on the way down? stop reaching please, its a cross clearly seen before, and after and its clearly at the diameter. Well I dont know about football but if thats its shape then so be it, I cannot argue with the facts.

And if I could laugh irl I'd be choking on wtfness on that last part. So now youre on the boat that it must be shaped like a football? Alright chief.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Explain why the 62% of weight on the other side did not fall by itself? if its heavier on the side its supposed to be falling on? whats this height based on? why not 6ft like most games vs generally are, more lowballing?

Originally posted by Burning thought
Well squating until your almost on the floor is close enough tbh. You just said hes squating now hes standing? get your own story right please. It looks exactly the same, we can see there are no other marks on the object that look the same, your theory to try and protect your own belief on the objects shape is that now its apprently got plenty of crosses on it.

Originally posted by Burning thought
I am not buying into your stuff either, again you imply an appeal to audiance fallacy therefore less credible claim 🙁 . Well the calculation clearly points out only 146%, also if you watched Scenarios videos its divided over 4 claws since he sort of holds his hand like a karate chop with all fingers+thumb in the strike. I admit, the percentage may be slightly different if I calced Raziel only moving the obelisk 2/3 meters rather than 4 but not by much, and not enough to make a difference for bowsers success on Kain. Where are you pulling 1% from? seriously....what nonsense, and htis is the top skin layer, you realise this is purely on his claws so hes going to have to stand there scratching Kain like a cat, making small cuts until he hits bone and shatters his claws.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Whats this some arrogant sarcasm again? its being sour, your shot down so you think everyone else has to follow what you bowed your head to. I doubt it, Kain would still take him out but anyway. And if you dont convince your opposition (me at the moment) of your math then theres no point in it right? yet you still do it so your thesis collapses.

Originally posted by Burning thought
You know nothing about my time here, youve been here for a fraction of the time, me being again it is irrelevent, its not a general practice if its just been made up by newcomers is it silly. 😆 so is your flawed grasp on replies, you have to try and make quibs to keep up. Re-read the laws, nano thickness knives do not launch their users into the air, or explode the piecies their cutting. Whats the point? to get a factual answer, I am not going to cut physics up because a few angry fans dont like it.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Lol swing and a miss~ Can you be sure that its the same cross? Can you be sure that the ball being shot through the air could not have moved on decent? If you can then by all means, show me your evidence. Until then I'll be sticking to the fact that a sphere is a sphere and not a football ^^;

And if I could laugh irl I'd be choking on wtfness on that last part. So now youre on the boat that it must be shaped like a football? Alright chief.

Weight pressing down, it needed a little push like I said. Geez why couldnt you ask that when I said it weeks ago? This is how it goes: If the height is unknown then the a 6ft average is used. The exception being the character is short/tall in their verse or is from a short/tall species. Currently I can think of no one in this category.. bad memory. If the height can be found then we use it. Link=6ft=horse shoulder, Kratos=8ft=cos they said so, Dante=6'3"=cos they said so, and Raziel=5'9"=height compared to Kain who=6'3"=taller than 6ft tall people. Done pointing fingers now?

Squatting is standing in a different tense o-o Hmmm. Accept BT idea that the mark is right by the diameter thus turning the shpere we know it is into a football shape... or agree with myself that a sphere is a sphere.. See, I'm having issues believing that the ball transformed before hitting him then turned back when thrown back. Just me? Aannnnnnnnnnnddddddd while I'm here; Look at the image posted above, the one I edited from your post. If you'll notice I stuck Bowser's face on in the same position as if he was looking forward. The weight above him is making him 17cm shorter then usual. [I knew I got two pics for a reason] In actually he's hardly squatting at all..

Ok then? This isnt appeal to audience, its appeal to the un-written rules. No no no, you're calcs say 146% increase. Scene agrees that Bowser is 20x stronger. Scream disagrees with your calcs. Rain disagrees with your calcs and see's it as Bowser being 1kx stronger. Thats the views, now what? Bowser's strength over 3 claws is I believe due to the recent increase 900x Raziel's strength over 2 claws. Reziels force is 1.1% of Bowser's.

Kinda funny. I say once that I'm not being arrogant and you jump at it.. fun to see your mind work. Ahh the sour thing, oh and bowing too? ^^ Too right, it keeps me awake at night that I didnt get it so now I don my mask at night stopping people from getting it... *cough-cough* Yeah, my aim here isnt to convince you, its to convince people in general. You wont agree for some stubborn reason but others will. See, my maths is still convincing people. Can you say the same about this?

I know you used to be a much chipper and carefree person at the start of your days o: But alas I do know about your time here as in any thread since Ive been here that involves maths you'd be the first to oppose it. Not a stretch to assume that you didnt bring maths to games before that either. So in fact you're the new one when it comes to maths :/ Nah, not my place to say but your words are more aggro then usual since that rant earlier. Lol re-read the laws? How about you try reading them. 3rd law. Ahh but Raziel doesnt have nanoblades, he has claws, Meaning if Kain didnt get pierced he would be sent flying. Concede to the bounce? An irl factual answer that disregards a feat for any fault or a fictitious answer that can be applied to all fictions?

I have no reason to belive theres more than one identicle mark on the object, far more reason to belive that mark than your claims and reaching, it moving has no relevence clearly by the time it lands the cross is still present, its like me asking a silly question like how do you know it has no changed shape or a different object fell and the original we see disapeared? all silly questions, we know the cross, we know where it is on the object.

Relax sport, your claim has been countered by the fact an obvious mark is giving us the location of the diameter.

What do you mean weight pressing down? according to you a whopping 62% over half is on the side its about to fall, surely by any logical deduction it should already be going over the heavier side? Tbh, looking about online it seems fans of link on other forums think hes only about 5ft if that due to him being shorter than a lot of characters also where do they say this about Dante? I dont recall his height being mentioned. I like how you assume Raziel has to be shorter than you belived than Kain simply taller, considering their biology (massive hands and feet) its likely their larger if anything.

Not really, how is squatting standing? his back is over and his chins almost touching the ground, hes not standing tall as if nothing has fazed him also dont forget Bowser is struggling here, as opposed to Raziels effortless movements. It did not transform at all, infact my suggestion is that the angle we see it at is odd, if you looked at a rugby ball from a side view it could look less like a rugby ball. The only fact we have, is that the cross is at the diameter. To add to the bowser thing, an object does not have to be beaten by higher strength to slow down to a halt.

Yes because neither Scene or scream are bias at all, not sure rain is either and your still making an appeal to audiance. 4 claws, vs 2 claws, 6000 tons vs 300 tons with higher velocity.

Since i am the only opposition whats the point of convincing people who already think bowser wins? how do you know their convinced by your math and are not simply agreeing with you because it helps their case? you dont. 😆 I have proven to be the least stubborn one here, I have agreed to points I am in opposition to in here, in the bayonetta thread and even waste time calculating things for the opposition and admit power has more power. You cannot convince someone if they were not in disagreement with you in the first place, and if your not convincing the opposition (just me) then again, its worthless. I convince my pals here in the good ol Uk, if I get them to log into KMC and say they agree do I get the same credit you keep boosting yourself with? 🙂

And you never had to keep bringing up personal attributes (possible implied ab hominem?) at the start of yours, you could just get on with an argument but since getting more under pressure you seem to buckle into spamming more "sport", "chief" nonsense then claiming its not an antagonism, again I have been playing this far more longer than you. You said the same as before, no matter whether or not I started using the math in the threads a day or two after someone else theres no "general practice". Well you miss the point, its similiar reasoning, small areas do not create the same force as a puncn which would send him flying. I ignored the whole bounce thing, you ignore enough of my stuff and I dont think you even have a case, it does not bounce like you seem to try to imply that its light. Its just been put under Raziels 800+ tons of force and its only 300 itself.

Originally posted by Burning thought
I have no reason to belive theres more than one identicle mark on the object, far more reason to belive that mark than your claims and reaching, it moving has no relevence clearly by the time it lands the cross is still present, its like me asking a silly question like how do you know it has no changed shape or a different object fell and the original we see disapeared? all silly questions, we know the cross, we know where it is on the object.

Relax sport, your claim has been countered by the fact an obvious mark is giving us the location of the diameter.

So bottom line, you would rather believe that its not a sphere anymore due to a mark then believe its remains a sphere?

Rain-"There are probable more marks on it''
BT-"The iron ball changes shape"

And you think my claim is the reach? O____o;;

Sport? Given your views on these names is this your way of 'being arrogant, demeaning and trying to impress me' like you said it was? ^^

Originally posted by Burning thought
What do you mean weight pressing down? according to you a whopping 62% over half is on the side its about to fall, surely by any logical deduction it should already be going over the heavier side? Tbh, looking about online it seems fans of link on other forums think hes only about 5ft if that due to him being shorter than a lot of characters also where do they say this about Dante? I dont recall his height being mentioned. I like how you assume Raziel has to be shorter than you belived than Kain simply taller, considering their biology (massive hands and feet) its likely their larger if anything.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Not really, how is squatting standing? his back is over and his chins almost touching the ground, hes not standing tall as if nothing has fazed him also dont forget Bowser is struggling here, as opposed to Raziels effortless movements. It did not transform at all, infact my suggestion is that the angle we see it at is odd, if you looked at a rugby ball from a side view it could look less like a rugby ball. The only fact we have, is that the cross is at the diameter. To add to the bowser thing, an object does not have to be beaten by higher strength to slow down to a halt.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Yes because neither Scene or scream are bias at all, not sure rain is either and your still making an appeal to audiance. 4 claws, vs 2 claws, 6000 tons vs 300 tons with higher velocity.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Since i am the only opposition whats the point of convincing people who already think bowser wins? how do you know their convinced by your math and are not simply agreeing with you because it helps their case? you dont. I have proven to be the least stubborn one here, I have agreed to points I am in opposition to in here, in the bayonetta thread and even waste time calculating things for the opposition and admit power has more power. You cannot convince someone if they were not in disagreement with you in the first place, and if your not convincing the opposition (just me) then again, its worthless. I convince my pals here in the good ol Uk, if I get them to log into KMC and say they agree do I get the same credit you keep boosting yourself with?

Originally posted by Burning thought
And you never had to keep bringing up personal attributes (possible implied ab hominem?) at the start of yours, you could just get on with an argument but since getting more under pressure you seem to buckle into spamming more "sport", "chief" nonsense then claiming its not an antagonism, again I have been playing this far more longer than you. You said the same as before, no matter whether or not I started using the math in the threads a day or two after someone else theres no "general practice". Well you miss the point, its similiar reasoning, small areas do not create the same force as a puncn which would send him flying. I ignored the whole bounce thing, you ignore enough of my stuff and I dont think you even have a case, it does not bounce like you seem to try to imply that its light. Its just been put under Raziels 800+ tons of force and its only 300 itself.

Originally posted by General Kaliero
[QUOTE=13464570]Originally posted by ScreamPaste
A character's strength is what creates the speed of their strike. I cannot figure out how fast Link's sword is moving, and then add the force created by the swing to the swing, because that's just multiplying Link's strength by Link's strength.

IE, false inflation.

And nicely doubled into one quote. Just for that physics thing. And another guy who gets it and disagrees here.

Originally posted by BloodRain
So bottom line, you would rather believe that its not a sphere anymore due to a mark then believe its remains a sphere?

Rain-"There are probable more marks on it''
BT-"The iron ball changes shape"

And you think my claim is the reach? O____o;;

Sport? Given your views on these names is this your way of 'being arrogant, demeaning and trying to impress me' like you said it was? ^^

Gravity would pull the weight vertically down, due to the angle and the heavier set base the mass would still need some kind of momentum. But nt much momentum as most of the weight would pull itself down. Ive read those things. They're just assumptions, especially making his height that of an average 13 year old when he's 17. He's as tall or taller then most of the people, he's as tall as Epona's shoulder and is near 5in taller than Malon. Unless the populace are all 5'3'', Epona isn't the breed of horse we think or Malon is as tall as a 9 year old girl.... you get the point. For Dante Capcom released a DMC4 height chart. I assume that Raziel has to be shorter than I believe? What? Kain is slightly taller than the people I assume are 6' tall at 6'3''. As Ive shown Raziel is around 90% of Kain's height. Not sure what their altered anatomy has to do with their overall height.

I was using the broad term of squatting and standing being in the same category of being on two feet as apposed to kneeling, hopping, lying down etc. When he's standing in that scene he's 2.13m tall, when the ball [ball] is on him he's 1.83m. Thats a 30cm drop in height, to a 6ft person having a weight on their shoulders and only squatting by 25cm. So no, he isnt 'crawling' or anywhere close. Actually it wasnt as effortless as you believe. It was more of simply using the same animation as always as if it was that effortless then he would not have failed when trying to push it over. ''Bowser struggled to support something over 20x heavier than what Raziel could flip over.'' Thats a false view. If it was the same cross then for it to be in that position and for it to look like a rugby ball the camera would need to give it an underhead view. But thw whole game has a low overhead view that borders on parallel. Its not the angle, its parallel to our view <- is also suggested by the lighting. They have already shown that when the ball in the backgrounds appearance alters to when it comes to the foreground with that same mark changing in size. You take that as nothing but the scene difference but different rules when it comes to the placement. Sum up: Underhead view is what you want, but thats not in the scene. Only if the resisting object isnt supporting itself and is just in the way like a rock would. But thats not the case as neither his arms or legs give way.

I think the mark is concrete evidence that its either not a sphere, or its dimensions are not the same as you believe.

Well its not a reach, its a fact, its a fact theres a cross on its dimeter.

Tbh I was just being a mimic.

Why would it be pulled vertically if the weight on the apprent heavier side according to you is greater on the side its going to fall? makes no sense at all. Apprently hes smaller than most of the women. it has quite a lot to do with it when Kains feet are extended and large, theres no reason to belive Raziel just has to be smaller than 6ft just because hes shorter than Kain.

His body is not standing, undeformed by the ball therefore some absorbtion of force is taken into account not just him catching it on his stronger arms and standing firm. His chin is nearly scraping the floor, his anatomy is not the same as a humans. Exactly, Raziel does it with no more difficulty than he does the smaller blocks, effortless and apprently according to you with such force on the push that he instills enough potential energy to knock it up half a meter when it hits the ground. They dont give way completly, his body gets pushed down though, having such a squat form it makes sense. Also what are you getting at with the ball? the cross/mark on it is a fact, simple, you cant try and worm out of the fact it gives us a clear idea of where the center is without speculation, the ball is off-screen as well at one point.

Originally posted by BloodRain

Well tbh you have not argued against him iirc, if you did you would realise he stubborny stands behind any point consistently for his side and rarely if ever argues any point in favour of the oppositions character. But your not confirming anything really, apart from opinions which are mostly bias. He has 4 which based on the evidence as shown when he uses his claws, he uses 4. Also equel? show me bowsers compared to Raziels please.

You dont know at all, I agreed with a lot of BS in teh bayonetta thread and in this one, even calculated a favourable outcome for bowsers PSi being more than Raziels, the calculation is pretty easy and straight forward, you getting a handfull of people you vouch for yourself for your argument does not cover you or deny it. You cannot prove anyone is neutral, nor can you prove you have convinced anyone. Why do I have to get them to understand the maths or even debate it? your bringing up people who simply claim is wrong, e.g. Nemebro, Leo, you dont actually have them with an argument or a basis, infact neither do you. Well, tbh you have nothing but hollow numbers 🙂 also known as an appeal to audiance.

You sort of ignored the point here. It sends the force, like a knife does to a tiny area, an area not enough to launch anyone, as I pointed out with micro/nano knives that have such tiny blades even human strength would be spread across an incredible tiny area, its no different in force to a person than a normal knife, you dont get knocked around 😉 . This simply proves Raziels strength was far more influencial in his push than I first thought, sort of makes up for the 1 meter or two in my calc.

Screampaste claims the characters strength creates the speed, this is not covered in most games vs characters. Dantes speed and power come from his devil heritige, his devil energy and other things not chemical reactions in his muscles which are not much bigger than a peak human athlete. Do you have any idea how fast Kratos' thousands of tons of strength should make him run, jump etc if its source was really his muscles? His claim is unfound, most if not all characters in games vs have an outside source, divine power (kratos), supernatural force (Dante, Kain), magic (bayonetta, links gauntlets) that equel the forces we use in a vs. If I pick up a cardboard box, the speed I pick it up as, assuming I did it slowly because I was not in a hurry is not the max speed I can move, punch etc.

Acceleration is something multiplied with striking power to get force, its basic physics;

Originally posted by General Kaliero

Force = mass X acceleration. In the case of say, a punch, the mass is going to be constant, so the output Force is dependent on the acceleration. Simply put, a faster punch hits harder, That much is true.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Yes I tought as much, he does not use it against anything durable. Paper mario, some sort of puppet, he does not use it in bowsers inside story, we dont even know if he has much strength in those other games by comparison.

You seem to have missed the point of those scenes. I was simply showing that Bowser does use his claws, and in fact has mimicked the stab Raziel used to beat Kain. In addition, Paper Mario got shot out of a cannon to the moon and tanks lightning bolts, not sure where you got the lack of durability from.

Is it? you dont really know what your talking about do you....Raziel never canonically attempts to damage Melchiah with his claws...again, boss battle/gamepaly mechanics tripping you up, I admit it works both ways and in both games.

Raziel never canonically attempts to damage any vampires (save Kain) with his claws, which essentially derails your entire argument for their durability. On the other hand, we do know that the portcullis canonically worked.

I dont need a better theory to defeat your already lackluster theory, your the one actually trying to prove something with a theory, not me. I am making suggestions, the objects are fairly aero dynamic at the back. But Raziels 9 million tons of force PSI cannot slice through them, hes looking for ways to kill them otherwise.

Raziel never canonically tried to attack, though, so by your own argument, they have no durability. Therefore humans beating them in melee makes perfect sense. If you want to make a "suggestion," you definitely should back it up, otherwise you've done nothing to dispute the evidence that the pole-arms are melee weapons.

Regen is consistent, that does not negate the fact Raziel cannot cut them in half or make a wound they cannot survive from, e.g. ripped in half, which is more than humans can do. Also Bowsers nails a few cm in size, hows he going to impale anyone?

He never conically tried, as per your new argument. Thus you have no case. Bowser's claws are still sharp enough to impale, especially with his strength.

Because irl stronger materials take longer to melt, their particles being more dense/closer aligned, Kain has skin thousands of times stronger than diamond, Steel, titanium and they take ridiculous temps to melt. No I dont....and no, I am saying Kain is not turn based therefore hes not waiting for bowser to change moves. But not as strong as Kain, e.g. able to resist.

None of that will stop the proven, canonical weakness to fire that Kain retains as a vampire. Unless Kain can fly, he's not resisting inhalation. What with it being based mostly on mass and volume.

It matters because it burns with incredible heat, from the furnace. Also I dont recall the gas coming from the center, show me again plz. If it was a gas made fire throughout the place it would happen instantly, not combust in a ball like high pressure heat.

Done, but again it does not matter because Dumah catches on fire before the explosion. No matter how hot it is, heat does not actually do what you are describing.

So what your saying is, their above Kain, were not going to gauge them but its clear! 😆 , maybe I wont gauge any of the feats, Kains simply clearly above them. Thats pretty much what your doing right now, showing more stubborn and fan love than I have ever done.

No. Ask yourself if Kain could replicate the feat. Based on what he's done, the answer is no. I don't do math, it's not my thing, in a similar way to how math is not really your thing. I could try, but it isn't worth the effort.

Childish, no counter. Your credability dropped a load.

Credibility? Really. I was just working with what you gave me, which was a massive double standard concerning your favorite ability. If the dimensional teleport counts, so does the catch card, because they are the same thing and you making up a distinction doesn't really change that. Of course, I could always mentions that Kain canonically never used the dimension reaver as per your argument, and in doing so doubly invalidate it.

We know that in the Defiance context, e.g. Kain weakene and slashed by the wraith blade which makes him bleed on-screen can make Kain vulnerable to things full power Kain in the FMV before is completly invulnerable to. As I said, you dont know what a retcon is, so you can add that to the fact you dont know what a lot of game mechanics are as well.

But we also know that Kain was absorbing the wraith blade and Raziel, so it effectively cancels out. Raziel then rips out Kain's heart, proving that he does not actually have such durability. I admit I have trouble with some definition when you continuously change them, yes.

Not sure Kain has a death scar from his assasination if you look above, you can see his whole chest without a scar. The image you showed before showed a massive dark line across Elder Kains chest suggesting it may have been mortanius putting the heart of darkness in Kain that gave the scar but the above image shows no scar at all 😕 Further, elder Kain has a lot of dark lines, cracks and other things on his body, it could be just part of the design.

Blood Omen 2 is not exactly a paragon of consistency. Seems like a simple mistake, since the scar wasn't actually important until defiance.

Also, this proves that its not the lack of a heart that halts Kains own vampire regeneration, since he did not heal his chest by himself or his scar. I wonder,if its the fact Raziel broke so deep into Kains body that he could not heal the area as perfectly as normal vampires heal flesh deep attacks.

He had the wound before he became a vampire, there's not much of a reason for it to heal. Since it's regeneration, and the scar was already there.

But its not an item, its a spell that the mechanics have no influence over since technically the player is not even playing while it happens, you cannot stop or change the animation or those it affects. Because its on a scale of such low gravity, that their weights are less than Kain has used through force (each planetoid is probably not much bigger than a large house). Also, both bowser, mario and pretty much all of them get up because the fairy thing aids them, its arguable if the black hole even touched them.

All of that still applies to the card, save that it's not a "spell," which a worthless designation where the game is concerned. The player isn't playing once the card is activated, and you can't change the animation or those it affects. So they are the exact same thing and you can't allow one without the other. Bowser was at the center of the star, supernova, black hole, and big bang, though.

You did it again 😆 evidence for what precifically!!? Saints alive 🙄

EVIDENCE FOR NOTHING SPECIFIC. JUST SUPPORT YOUR CLAIMS.

Look, how about the claim that the humans have a siege engine? You haven't yet supported Raziel's strength. You haven't supported Kain's strength or speed. You haven't supported spells, the Soul Reaver, heck almost everything you've claimed in this thread lacks evidence, I'm just asking you to give some. Nothing specific, I'm asking for everything in general.

What the dimension reaver does is scripted, a mechanic is something that alters how players interact with the universe, for example health bars, bosses that take a specific tactic to beat. Another example is Kratos from God of War, he has proven to be more than strong enoguh to ear almost any bosses in piecies but he still has to play by the mechanics which state each boss has a tactic.

What the catch card does is scripted, then. It doesn't affect the way the player interacts with the universe, as it's just a scripted item.

He states human minds are fragile, thats nothing to imply no other mind is fragile. Your making the hasty generalisation fallacy.

Unless you can prove other minds are fragile, they have their own baseline separate from humans, which are stated to be below. You're the one assuming all minds are fragile just because humans are.

Besides, I don't think he can really affect Bowser's brain computer.

I did provide evidnece he has blood, the fact his body environment is red, suggesting blood is flowing through it. Tbh, I dont have to prove Bowser has blood more so than anyone else has to prove a character does, if its a bio organism, especially a dinosoid sort of creature it has blood of some form.

But your evidence fails, because on Mario's scale the blood would not appear liquid. He would be more likely to see red blood cells and plasma, which is yellow.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyuwPBvmHQw

Consider the following:

When inside the body, living bones are actually red. This is mostly because one of their many functions is to produce blood, in the marrow. Bones only turn white after their living parts die and rot away. Now, consider the above video: Bowser's bones are white. This means that he has no viable way of producing blood cells. So logically he has no blood. Bowser has completely alien anatomy, there's no real reason he has to have blood, is there?

The whole thing is wasting time, your reaching, your claims of it being superior to Kain without any real evidence. You dont have a case other than "its clearly stronger", the planetoids are small and so is mario, it cannot suck in mario at all it seems until the end. You have no gauge, your just saying "its stwongerz so there!"

It destroyed the comet observatory and multiple ships, why are you ignoring this? Mario has a Luma in his hat and if you weren't watching, was protected by Rosalina when she gave the speech about stardust. It's a supernova, I shouldn't have to explain why it is powerful.

One, gameplay mechanic, two the sonic waves in marios world move at like, a cm a second.....thats slow as hell but again, gameplay mechanic.

If Bowser is immune to time stops in his games, why can't he be against Kain? Vs. canon statement, the canon takes precedence. It only looks slow to them, have you considered that? I notice that bullets and cannons move at a similar speed, both of which we know are near sonic or supersonic speeds. That seems fairly consistent. If anything, the gameplay mechanic would be slowing it down so the player could see it, while in actuality it is at the speed of sound.

You did not counter me here, and I refered to it as "sonic blasts" so reading comprehension ftw.

Yes, and you appear to be ignoring the speed that that indicates in your response. Unless you have a legitimate reason for sound to not move at the speed of sound? Actually, game mechanics does work for that one, since the player can't actually dodge sound.

Yeh again, you ignored my points and just claimed the same thing you did before, I think I should start being as lazy as you and not actually debate, just keep saying "wrong, not a feat!" alongside my "Kains clearly more powerfulz, i dont have ot prove anything".

Your points didn't actually dispute me, though. For game mechanics, they could have put those little floating balls that restore your health instead if humans, nut no, they chose to have humans there. For your story reason, the Circle "bringing them to experiment on" doesn't explain why they were not transformed. And then, again, your third point didn't make sense. You have not given sufficient reasoning to dispute these, so it still isn't a feat. Until there's a legitimate reason the humans weren't transformed, Kain has no feat.

Yes because Kains comment on humans and beasts, the weather and the terrain itself being affected was just some in-game comedy to be ignored.

Why would you ignore comedy? It would be at this point I remind you that Kain is fallible, though. He never really says, or sees, a human get transformed.

It shows its more powerful, a nuclear bomb is more powerful than a smaller one more so because its area can wipe out far far more. It affects weather, beast and man. Oh please, their counter to bowser was simply squeeking in terror, tehy did not even try to do anything.

No, it just has a bigger area. It's not like it matters how big a bomb is if you're right next to it. Still, we don't see a human being transformed, nor does Kain. He doesn't state that Dark Eden affects humans, either. Given that humans are in the area, it seems he was proven wrong. Bowser, on the oher hand, transformed them as soon as he gt the Star Rod.

I guess we dont know how long this took, or how he did it? can we see him doing it or is it ambigious? e.g., dark eden is a expanding zone of reality warping magic, Bowsers brick transformation consists of?

It happens, game starts.

Well of course you would think so, hes your aid. I wonder if I just got a few guys I know to come on here and simply agree with me and re-hash my old points I would be able to ignore arguments like you do.

Originally posted by JesterGeorge
This man speaks the truth. Kain is just too strong for Poopa to even go against. With a flick of his wrist, he'll pop Pooopa's brain like jelly, or manhandle him with magic or brute force. The so-called King wouldn't last a minute with Kain in hand fighting, or with magic. Your cute and cuddly turtle thing, lost this round, hard. GG, not really.

Doesn't look like it helped you too much.

Originally posted by The Scenario

Which one was supposed to mimic raziels jump/slash with 2 claws? I dont recall it. I dont know how much of that is gameplay or just a toon feat that shows a cannon that cannot launch tiny mushroom critters as far at the same time, you can never tell with you.

However, he canonically mensions how he needs to find other ways of destroying vampires, its not actually suggested here, only in practice like most battles. I assume most things work on Melchiah, hes rotting anyway, infact I think a lot of the flesh that makes up his body is human skin.

Yes he did, he pointed out he has to defeat them using something other than millions of tons PSI, "modify his tactics". I have yet to see that evidence tbh, all you keep spamming is the video that has what your claiming as pole arms in the vampires.

Impalement for vampires consists of consistent damage, his claws can just about get through Kains skin, let alone causea constant wound. hes going to have to move his hand back for another strike eventually unless your theory is hes going to stand there with his hand in Kains skin to make sure it does not heal 🙄 .

Youve yet to prove fire can melt Kain the same way it does to normal vamps, which is still yet unproven canon because you mistake animation speeds, apprently this wood is also really flammable;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJMkclBMhGE&feature=relmfu#t=1m3s

A real beam of that size would not turn into an inferno in like 1/2 seconds if that and our friend LeadingMan points it out. This proves that eitherA; the rendering engine makes all fire burn fast, regardless of real speed (my claim) OR. B; the industry of Kains empire and the general world have increased the fires intensity and made objects more flammable. He can just dig his feet in the ground or something, Bowsers breath as shown can capture featless creatures, not someone as strong as Kain.

Sure he catches on fire, but he dies after the explosion and whats more the heat is still enough to cause that explosion.

Well yes, he could because he can take 16x the core pressure of the real sun on his body. By comparison, Bowsers sun is not much bigger than a small country.

😆 the same thing? ones an item whos power has to be used on bowser canonically for your claim to work. Kains port is an ability whos effects are scripted, it does not have to caonically hapen unless I was claiming Kain used it to beat a powerful opponent before which I have not claimed. Your catch card also states canoncally that it may not even work, regardless of its target. He canonically gains it, it canonically does what is stated. I am not argueing the catchcard does not do what it states to do, otherwise then it would be a double standard but i am not doing that.

Kain does not do that, the reaver attempts to absorbs raziel. Your confused about the whole state of affairs. Purified Raziel at the end of defiance through choice heals Kain, along with the scar.

If I am not mistaen your image is not from defiance its from the SR 2 fmv. Although this does not counter the fact BO 2 he did not have a scar, tbh even I thought he had a scar from his assasination (not as large as the dark mark in your image) but it seems based on BO2 this is not there anymore? I dont know what your dakr mark in that image is, infact its far larger than the sword wound made by Kains assasination, far larger than the sword.

You confused your own argument and mine at the same time ,good job. I never said it has no effect, only that you can never prove Bowser canonically got hit by its power, its completly player choice so your failing at trying to find a double standard when I am not claiming the ability itself does not work the way the game tells us which is what your doing for hte dimention reaver. how do you know? Technically if bowser was durable enough to survive the supernova he should be hurtling through space from its explosion/implosion, we dont actually see any of them inside it tbh.

That was a suggestion to disprove your suggestion, youve yet to prove facts so I dont have to either concerning the Dumahim dead. Wtf...theres tons of proof on raziels strength all over the place. yes I have, thats like me claiming you have not supported anything, not even bowser.

😆 its not scripted because for your claim to work Bowser would have to have canonically been struck by it, further even the power itself is not scripted to work a specific way, it can apprently randomly fail.

I dont have to prove other minds are fragile, you have to prove other minds are not as fragile than humans. No not really, I am claiming unless someone has a better feat than a human then their fair game for the spell.

Why? if anything a shock would ruin a computer even more than an organic brain imo.

Originally posted by The Scenario

If hes at DNA scale I doubt he would even see that.

Does Bowser have a heart?

Because its a gameplay mechanic (see boss mechanic), and again it cannot be proven the timestop even happens, you cant just bring up an item Mario can use at the behest of a player then claim it actually happened in the canon. Well thats another claim, can you prove it looks slow to them? I imagine most things in the game look slow, I would not doubt if I played the game I would see projectiles and creatures of all shapes/sizes moving at the same speed, because its a mechanic.

My legitimate reason is that it simply does not in the mario universe, just like how black holes are more akin to the pull of a kitchen sinks plug hole draining water and that its stars are tiny.

I gave reasons, you claiming "does not explain" does not counter me, you forget this place is under the sorcerors control to some degree andy you sort of ignored the other reasons. Also your debunked by Kain anyway;

Seeing a mutated human:

Kain VO
The poor wretch was warped beyond recognition. To think that it was once human.

Encountering Dark Eden’s strange creatures:

Such strange creatures that had been spawned by this dark magic; things half insect and half mammal - human torsos grafted onto abominations of the flesh. Sick as it was, I could not help but admire its creator’s ingenuity.

Humans are transformed, why those already within the Dome are not can be any of my suggestions, does not counter what the dome does. If anything, it may not be canon those people were even there, as I said a mechanic.

kain is not fallible on something he actually sees though.

I dont understand that statement, "it happens, game starts"? so your saying we dont know, its ambigious....

Well tbh no more than I expected, but apprently I can bring him up later and claim he agreed with me as if it makes my argument so much stronger!

Originally posted by Burning thought
Which one was supposed to mimic raziels jump/slash with 2 claws? I dont recall it. I dont know how much of that is gameplay or just a toon feat that shows a cannon that cannot launch tiny mushroom critters as far at the same time, you can never tell with you.

You misunderstood; I said the "stab that Raziel use to beat Kain," which should mean it was a thrust attack, not a slash, much less a jump.

However, he canonically mensions how he needs to find other ways of destroying vampires, its not actually suggested here, only in practice like most battles. I assume most things work on Melchiah, hes rotting anyway, infact I think a lot of the flesh that makes up his body is human skin.

All he mentions is that he'd have to modify his tactics, and that is again in reference to regeneration, not durability. He still never attempted anything. Melchiah was still canonically taken out by the portcullis, so yeah.

Yes he did, he pointed out he has to defeat them using something other than millions of tons PSI, "modify his tactics". I have yet to see that evidence tbh, all you keep spamming is the video that has what your claiming as pole arms in the vampires.

He again made no attempts, so you still really don't have a case. I have, on the other hand, shown you the pole-arms that were used to kill vampires by humans, while you have...what? I can't recall you actually doing anything to dispute it.

Impalement for vampires consists of consistent damage, his claws can just about get through Kains skin, let alone causea constant wound. hes going to have to move his hand back for another strike eventually unless your theory is hes going to stand there with his hand in Kains skin to make sure it does not heal 🙄 .

A deep enough wound seems to have quite a bit of trouble recovering, though, and since Kain has lost his regeneration it won't be a problem keeping him wounded. Or he could tear Kain's heart out again.

Youve yet to prove fire can melt Kain the same way it does to normal vamps, which is still yet unproven canon because you mistake animation speeds, apprently this wood is also really flammable;

Actually, I have already. Kain is a vampire, fire is a stated weakness, and I have two canon cutscenes contradicting your unsupported claim. Because Kain is vampire, you are actually obligated to prove he has some resistance, preferably with real fire this time. By the way, I see no problem with the wood burning that fast, if you recall that Bowser burns entire trees faster than that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJMkclBMhGE&feature=relmfu#t=1m3s

A real beam of that size would not turn into an inferno in like 1/2 seconds if that and our friend LeadingMan points it out. This proves that eitherA; the rendering engine makes all fire burn fast, regardless of real speed (my claim) OR. B; the industry of Kains empire and the general world have increased the fires intensity and made objects more flammable. He can just dig his feet in the ground or something, Bowsers breath as shown can capture featless creatures, not someone as strong as Kain.

Or C, it's made of balsa. Or the wood is rotten and dried. Possibly treated with a fast burning chemical of some kind. Seriously, though?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vt1VNEWl9I0#t=4m54s

It doesn't actually matter. Bowser is burning a larger quantity of living (harder to burn) wood in a faster time, which pretty much invalidates everything you just posted. You still haven't countered the burning vampires, either, not like it matters because Bowser could burn them, too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vt1VNEWl9I0#t=7m17s

Let's see...Toadsworth (featless), Mario (strength), Peach (magic), Starlow (magic, basically featless) and Luigi (strength, legitimate ability to run on air.) Kain's never experienced this ability before; good chance of catching him by surprise, and if he digs in he's set up for fire breath.

Sure he catches on fire, but he dies after the explosion and whats more the heat is still enough to cause that explosion.

He's flailing in pain and unable to move while he's on fire anyway. The explosive did very little, if anything. As it was a gas explosion.

Well yes, he could because he can take 16x the core pressure of the real sun on his body. By comparison, Bowsers sun is not much bigger than a small country.

Wait for the math to pan out before you try it. You've been told by multiple people that you're wrong, and you're using a flawed calculation base, so I'm not exactly ready to accept that. Kain would burn to ash anyway.

😆 the same thing? ones an item whos power has to be used on bowser canonically for your claim to work. Kains port is an ability whos effects are scripted, it does not have to caonically hapen unless I was claiming Kain used it to beat a powerful opponent before which I have not claimed. Your catch card also states canoncally that it may not even work, regardless of its target. He canonically gains it, it canonically does what is stated. I am not argueing the catchcard does not do what it states to do, otherwise then it would be a double standard but i am not doing that.

The card's effect is also scripted, so trying to make that distinction is a bit of a double standard. Especially since you're trying to use it as a speed feat, which would require him canonically doing it. I'm simply claiming that the catch card is scripted in what it does, and canonically does what it's stated, which is stealing an enemy's soul, just doesn't work on Bowser. You're trying to use the dimensional reaver as a speed feat, essentially the same situation, since both are scripted events that didn't canonically happen. You want one, you have to take the other. Anything else would be something of a double standard.

Kain does not do that, the reaver attempts to absorbs raziel. Your confused about the whole state of affairs. Purified Raziel at the end of defiance through choice heals Kain, along with the scar.

On the other hand, it still doesn't happen by choice in Soul Reaver 2 and that part of Defiance. The Reaver was still trying to absorb Raziel, and Kain was likely trying to absorb the Wraith Blade. Not changing any of the facts here.

If I am not mistaen your image is not from defiance its from the SR 2 fmv. Although this does not counter the fact BO 2 he did not have a scar, tbh even I thought he had a scar from his assasination (not as large as the dark mark in your image) but it seems based on BO2 this is not there anymore? I dont know what your dakr mark in that image is, infact its far larger than the sword wound made by Kains assasination, far larger than the sword.

I'm simply claiming that Blood Omen 2 was a mistake. Whole game, one huge mistake. Didn't really need to be in the series, ugh. There are infinite possibilities for it, because apparently it didn't really happen. Maybe Kain wasn't originally killed by a stab to the chest, maybe the Cabal healed it, maybe Vorador popped out of it alive and well to suddenly be alive for no reason. It's not like any other LoK games are actually affected by what happened in Blood Omen 2, save Kain getting a random burst of knowledge. The scar being gone is mostly irrelevant.

Nothing really stops a scar from being bigger than the wound. Internal damage and all that.

You confused your own argument and mine at the same time ,good job. I never said it has no effect, only that you can never prove Bowser canonically got hit by its power, its completly player choice so your failing at trying to find a double standard when I am not claiming the ability itself does not work the way the game tells us which is what your doing for hte dimention reaver. how do you know? Technically if bowser was durable enough to survive the supernova he should be hurtling through space from its explosion/implosion, we dont actually see any of them inside it tbh.

Quite the contrary. You're trying to claim that the dimension reaver has a scripted effect, but you are trying to use it as a speed feat that would require a canon instance to be proven. I am quite similarly trying to claim that the catch card has a scripted effect, but I am trying to use it as a resistance feat that would require a canon instance to be proven. You can to have both, or neither, but you cannot have one without also having the other. In effect, should you choose to give Kain speed, Bowser gains soul resistance; should you take away Bowser's soul resistance, Kain loses his speed.

That was a suggestion to disprove your suggestion, youve yet to prove facts so I dont have to either concerning the Dumahim dead. Wtf...theres tons of proof on raziels strength all over the place. yes I have, thats like me claiming you have not supported anything, not even bowser.

Prove your suggestion, then. Otherwise I could just "suggest" that the Hylden are magically moving all of Raziel's block puzzles and he only looks strong, and I wouldn't have to give evidence because it's just a "suggestion," or "possibility." If you want 'siege engine' as a valid possibility, show me a darn siege engine. My main problem is with you not posting the actual evidence, you just say you have it "all over the place" without actually putting it in the current thread. If I want a Raziel feat I have to go to youtube myself or look at another thread, while if you want a Bowser feat you can refer to basically any of my posts, or just page 3-4 of this thread. See what you did with the burning wood video, or even the god-awful Blood Omen picture? Good, that's fine; perfect, even. Saying "it's everywhere,"? No, that's mean.

😆 its not scripted because for your claim to work Bowser would have to have canonically been struck by it, further even the power itself is not scripted to work a specific way, it can apprently randomly fail.

Not randomly; it only has a chance to fail against powerful creatures, and it only outright never works against Bowser or bosses (since Bowser doesn't really count as a boss in that game.) Assuming we're still talking about the catch card, that is. Still, all it indicates is that lots of powerful monsters (and Bowser) have soul resistance. Besides, you trying to get a speed feat out of the dimension Reaver is no different.

I dont have to prove other minds are fragile, you have to prove other minds are not as fragile than humans. No not really, I am claiming unless someone has a better feat than a human then their fair game for the spell.

Why? if anything a shock would ruin a computer even more than an organic brain imo.

Not how it works. Humans are specifically picked out as being vulnerable. Anything non-human (thus not specified) is not stated to be vulnerable. Picture it like this:

---------------------------Extraordinary (likely Bowser)

-----------------Baseline

------Human (vulnerable)

While it is true that we typically use humans as the baseline for a power, in this case it is humans who are stated to be below the baseline in mental strength. Thus nonhumans aren't really vulnerable by virtue of not being the target. Bowser is even more difficult for having a completely alien mind, not only having a computer but a completely separate consciousness. It's too inhuman to have a chance of being affected.

If hes at DNA scale I doubt he would even see that.

Does Bowser have a heart?

He can see bones. Said bones are not red, thus not making blood, thus no blood. I can definitively say that Mario does not encounter a heart, but it is again impossible to prove a lack of something. I could say Bowser is considered heartless.

Because its a gameplay mechanic (see boss mechanic), and again it cannot be proven the timestop even happens, you cant just bring up an item Mario can use at the behest of a player then claim it actually happened in the canon. Well thats another claim, can you prove it looks slow to them? I imagine most things in the game look slow, I would not doubt if I played the game I would see projectiles and creatures of all shapes/sizes moving at the same speed, because its a mechanic.

Well, same situation with you. You can't just claim that Kain has super reactions when you can't prove Kain reacted to anything. These are tied together, too. Can't have one without the other. If you want Kain to be fast, Bowser gets the immunities he is known to have.

See, the thing is, while it looks slow in game, it's still moving at the speed of sound according to canon statements. You understand that by saying it's a mechanic you are agreeing with me, right?

My legitimate reason is that it simply does not in the mario universe, just like how black holes are more akin to the pull of a kitchen sinks plug hole draining water and that its stars are tiny.

Not really a legitimate reason. Unless you can prove that the speed of sound is slower in the Mario universe. Just that it seems slow in game isn't good enough, because it's still stated to be sound.

I gave reasons, you claiming "does not explain" does not counter me, you forget this place is under the sorcerors control to some degree andy you sort of ignored the other reasons. Also your debunked by Kain anyway;

On the other hand, I'm sure you noticed that both of those quotes occur quite a bit outside the field. Kain does not see them transformed, and the presence of humans inside the field still proves him wrong. You're the one assuming a few creatures Kain thinks are or were humans suddenly means all humans are affected; a notion defeated by the presence of humans inside the field. Note the word Kain used: "grafted," as in surgically attatched, as in, one of Anarcrothe's hobbies. Kain doesn't really specify what magic he's talking about. They could be failed chimera attemps from Anarcrothe's lab for all we know.

Humans are transformed, why those already within the Dome are not can be any of my suggestions, does not counter what the dome does. If anything, it may not be canon those people were even there, as I said a mechanic.

Except it does, since unaffected humans means humans can resist, and therefore it's not impressive. The gameplay argument falls flat when you consider that health can also be restored by certain floating balls and that would eliminate the need for humans.

Finding the Alchemy rooms:

Kain VO
The sorcerer’s sanctuary, his laboratory. Inside was all manner of items arcane: pickled bodies, dissected corpses, []both man and beast,[/i] and metal constructs that heaved arcs of energy into the air. I sensed more than one force being manipulated in this place.

Strange. Rarely did a sorcerer condescend to work with others.

Besides which, Kain still finds human corpses.

kain is not fallible on something he actually sees though.

He's assuming or guessing that the monster were once human, he's assuming or guessing it was from dark magic (while still outside Dark Eden), and he is proven wrong and is generally contradicted by himself and the presence of humans inside Dark Eden.

I dont understand that statement, "it happens, game starts"? so your saying we dont know, its ambigious....

I mean Bowser does it, kidnaps Peach, goes to his castle, and then the game starts.

Originally posted by The Scenario

Impossible as Bowser does not have the proven power to harm Kain from the wraith blade like Raziel does.

Same thing, if 9 million tons PSI cannot rip apart vampires, then how do you think humans are going to fair? their not even likely able to pierce them. Well actually, he was killed by a meat grinder, does not prove anything.

You have made a claim that their pole-arms, that it, claiming humans have used polearms before on younger vampires in Blood omen era like the Sarafan knights or Demon hunters is not relevent.

Whats that based on? Kain recovered slowly from having his heart torn out, or the heart of Darkness, he no longer has the heart nor does he have any loss of regeneration, as Raziel says they do not fear flesh deep attacks. You seem to confuse your own points, on one hand you have claimed Kain loses regen because since losing his heart he did not heal his chest (its gone from a hole to a scar, so you cant blame it for not being perfect) but now your claiming he has another heart to tear out, theres no heart at all.

Its supported and your cutscenes are rendered the same as the wood,no wood burns up so fast. No, because you misunderstand why fire is a weakness. You cannot disprove how real fire works just because bowsers fire is rendered as quickly burning trees as well, this is just a open flame setting light to a large piece of wood, in seconds destroying it.

3 suggestions, I made suggestions on the vampires as well. Point being is that both burn extremely fast beyond real world, your argument hinges on the theory that its a weakness to vamps because they burn fast, apprently its also a weakness to this support in the same way, whats your answer to that, that its vampire wood or something? 😉

The math is perfectly clear to me, I like how your so bias, the math for the 6000+ ton ball has not panned out yet but you still want to use it as a strength feat to say Bowser is superior. Well no, Bowsers>>trees, Kains greater pressure than most if not all of known metals.

No, the catch card "has a possiblity" of stealing "an enemies" soul, your using an o limits fallacy that it would effect on anyone, or indeed bowser. Theres things a durability/protection feat needs that my claim, base of an ability needs to work.

Well its not the same instance, you see the sword is made to devour Raziel to make it the wraith blade, its nothing to do with Kain, the sword leeches Raziel to mend itself before. Kain cannot just "absorb" the wraith blade, thats the point of the defiance ending, the wraith blade is actually irrelevent at that point apart from of course striking Kains chest beforehand.

You dont actually understand BO2 at all if you dont think its relevent. But then, your trying to argue that Kain can absorb the wraith blade to heal himself as well, so its not surprising.

indeed, internal damage like when Raziel strikes Kain with the wraith blade, but that does not mean the scar is going to suddenly get large.

Why would it need a canon instane? the dimension reaver is a speed feat by virtue of its scripted function, you dont understand how that works do you? Kain does not have to use it, for its scripted function to be true but you cannot understand how Bowser has to be hit by catchcard power to claim he actually has the feat.

Originally posted by The Scenario

Again, youve not proven yours. Claiming they look like polearms because once upon a time Sarafan used polearms does not give any facts. Thats not really a suggestion, thats a baseless claim altogether. I have the calculation and sources of Raziels strength a few pages ago in my math also whats the point in a respect thread if its not going to be used? If you want to quote or point me to the page in the bowser respect thread instead of re-posting evidence then thats fine, thats what I do with old information in other threads. reposting everything already shown over and over is pointless.

The dimension reavers speed is not random, it does not have any chance to fail, its scripted, stop reaching for something thats not there. The catchard simply says "it almost always works".

Thats a baseless claim, that Bowser is extraordinary. Also That does not prove anything, how is a humab below baseline? it works against humans, therefore anything with human resistance or less is vulnerable, making the hasty generalisation that just because it works on humans, it does not work on anything else is illogical.

😆 Where is it stated their "below" the baseline? it just says human minds are "vulnerable", it does not hint that anything else is not, e.g. a dog, a cat etc are apprently by your logic less vulnerable than a human, its not stated.

What were the bones? I find it hard to belive he can determine bones at the DNA scale.

Kain does not have to react to anything because the scripted Dimension reaver is the reaction, a specific target is irrelevent.

It does not move much faster than the boom boxes, also as I said the mario world in general is warped, toonforced to the point where a lot of things look slower or faster than they usually would be. If you want to claim a feat from base info then you canont look outside for info.

Its stated to be sound blasts by the looks of it, or sonic blasts not an actual sound wave. Otherwise you cannot reall dodge sound, also another interesting thing to note is that the sonic creature itself makes a fairly obvious action before fireing so Mario could just as well be dodging the boom box things actions.

I like how you ignore the evidence, Kain sees a mutated human, its in the script;

http://nosgoth.net/Blood_Omen/dialogue/page5.htm

Now your reaching that apparently it was nothing to do with the field, a mutated human just happend to be there, what a coincidence. Spawned by "this dark magic" is not surgery.

Kain VO
Magic seethed and shifted. I watched the dome of energy as it expanded, absorbing and recreating, consuming life and leaving behind only a twisted parody.

This is not some guess, Kain is actually seeing this happen. Mutations apprently being part of it. I like how you forget the whole gameplay mechanic argument based around humans inside the field, as well as the fact they were creating the magic, theres no reason to suggest Kain is wrong just because some humans are spared for an unkown reason.

Hardly falls flat, also what floating balls? vials? Some sustence is different to others although tbh, you cannot argue against a developers decisions, claiming there could be "other ways" to restore health does not change the fact theres humans there instead. How can a human resist when as stated earlier their twisted parodies? Nothing much can resist, only Kain.

Human corpses, within the wizards spire, theres no indication the sphere that expands effects inside the spire since their magic rules here, do you think the Alchemist is sitting there going "damn, I have turned all my subjects into monsters!, nvm!", clearly theres some control going on.

😆 assuming or guessing? theres a big swirling mass of energy that can be seen for miles, consuming life and yadda yadda what Kain says but Scenario would not jump to the conclusion the warped paradies later seen could possibly be anything to do with it, your reaching badly, especially when the script says "Encountering Dark Eden’s strange creatures: " above Kains VO.

So show me bowser doing it?