Final Destination [Maximum] Vol.9 Bowser X Kain

Psssssst. Sceeeene. He doesn't believe the ball was at the dimensions we got for it. He thinks it the shape of a football/ellipsoid D;
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Originally posted by Burning thought
I think the mark is concrete evidence that its either not a sphere, or its dimensions are not the same as you believe.

Well its not a reach, its a fact, its a fact theres a cross on its dimeter.

Tbh I was just being a mimic.

You have your fact that theres a mark on it, and I have my fact that it doesnt change shape. There is no reason that my fact can be wrong as.. it cant change shape. On the other hand there can be reasons to fault yours like it not being the same mark and/or its just a graphical thing like how it appears larger in the background.

Why would it be pulled vertically if the weight on the apprent heavier side according to you is greater on the side its going to fall? makes no sense at all. Apprently hes smaller than most of the women. it has quite a lot to do with it when Kains feet are extended and large, theres no reason to belive Raziel just has to be smaller than 6ft just because hes shorter than Kain.

His body is not standing, undeformed by the ball therefore some absorbtion of force is taken into account not just him catching it on his stronger arms and standing firm. His chin is nearly scraping the floor, his anatomy is not the same as a humans. Exactly, Raziel does it with no more difficulty than he does the smaller blocks, effortless and apprently according to you with such force on the push that he instills enough potential energy to knock it up half a meter when it hits the ground. They dont give way completly, his body gets pushed down though, having such a squat form it makes sense. Also what are you getting at with the ball? the cross/mark on it is a fact, simple, you cant try and worm out of the fact it gives us a clear idea of where the center is without speculation, the ball is off-screen as well at one point.

Well tbh you have not argued against him iirc, if you did you would realise he stubborny stands behind any point consistently for his side and rarely if ever argues any point in favour of the oppositions character. But your not confirming anything really, apart from opinions which are mostly bias. He has 4 which based on the evidence as shown when he uses his claws, he uses 4. Also equel? show me bowsers compared to Raziels please.

You dont know at all, I agreed with a lot of BS in teh bayonetta thread and in this one, even calculated a favourable outcome for bowsers PSi being more than Raziels, the calculation is pretty easy and straight forward, you getting a handfull of people you vouch for yourself for your argument does not cover you or deny it. You cannot prove anyone is neutral, nor can you prove you have convinced anyone. Why do I have to get them to understand the maths or even debate it? your bringing up people who simply claim is wrong, e.g. Nemebro, Leo, you dont actually have them with an argument or a basis, infact neither do you. Well, tbh you have nothing but hollow numbers 🙂 also known as an appeal to audiance.

You sort of ignored the point here. It sends the force, like a knife does to a tiny area, an area not enough to launch anyone, as I pointed out with micro/nano knives that have such tiny blades even human strength would be spread across an incredible tiny area, its no different in force to a person than a normal knife, you dont get knocked around 😉 . This simply proves Raziels strength was far more influencial in his push than I first thought, sort of makes up for the 1 meter or two in my calc.

Screampaste claims the characters strength creates the speed, this is not covered in most games vs characters. Dantes speed and power come from his devil heritige, his devil energy and other things not chemical reactions in his muscles which are not much bigger than a peak human athlete. Do you have any idea how fast Kratos' thousands of tons of strength should make him run, jump etc if its source was really his muscles? His claim is unfound, most if not all characters in games vs have an outside source, divine power (kratos), supernatural force (Dante, Kain), magic (bayonetta, links gauntlets) that equel the forces we use in a vs. If I pick up a cardboard box, the speed I pick it up as, assuming I did it slowly because I was not in a hurry is not the max speed I can move, punch etc.

Acceleration is something multiplied with striking power to get force, its basic physics;

But thats how it works. Especially that the strike/lift relationship which usually stays equal. An average body type, as in not one made for specific things like boxing or weightlifting, like a person or martial artist will have both of these forces acting interdependently of each other. The strike of a person is pretty much projectile like, it doesnt use the same force, and gives roughly the same amount of force:

NormGai: Can lift 30kg@3m/s [135J] and have an average punch force of about 100-150J [Average body; Equal]
MartialArtist: Can lift 70kg@3m/s [315J] and punch at 300J [Average body; Equal]
Weightlifter: Can lift 300kg@3m/s [1350J] and punch at 400J [Lifting body; Greater gap for lift]
Boxer: Can lift 90kg@3m/s [450J] and punch at 600J [Punching specific; Creates a gap with strike]
*Above are only examples and not specific people or at specific levels, only to demonstrate the different body-types lift force to their strike force.

Most people are either the average/fighter-type or a mix of weightlifter and boxer which is pretty much the same as the average/fighter-type.. but bulkier. EG everyone in debates that I remember are these types whos striking force matches their lifting force. Only exceptions would be a character that has shown to have their lifting force<their striking force or the other way round. If not, which would be pretty rare in the fiction world, then both forces are separate but generate the same force. The other things like magic, supernatural and/or divinity are all augmenting their force/strength/damage/etc so it's be the same as if they didnt have some other force amping them. [eg A 10 tonner, mach 1 guy whos that strong naturally is treated the same way a 10 tonner, mach 1 guy whos that strong because theyre some demon thing.]

Originally posted by BloodRain

According to your interesting find, its also a ball just a different shape to a sphere. Well maybe it looking like a sphere in the background is also a graphical thing, the mark is pretty obvious, its something you can see consistently throughout the scenes while we dont actually know what the balls dimentions really are without you trying to estimate it.

And according to you theres far more weight on the other side for it to pull, so it should fall over if you were correct, but it needs raziels push. What human are you comparing Kain to exactly? because some wear armoured suits, plus Raziel usually slouches, you cannot compare him to humans, hell even Kain often takes a low stance so I want to be clear.

As I said, shock absorbtion, using your theory he should not have moved at all or struggled so much with just the weight resting on him. If you realise 6.4k tons (the objects weight) makes Bowser struggle yet apprently you think his strength alone can stop a multiple of that x velocity (we cant use velocity omg! paradox!) then how does your logic stand up? because tbh I think its struggling alongside bowser. Raziel gives it the necessery energy to counterweight but apprently, too much energy since it bounced up the other side.

When so I can go and have a look out of interest? what threads? Not sure SSB is even canon to any games, although I would like to see him using his three longer claws ,all of them seem to be there to my eyes. Raziel can launch himself with agility far beyond a human and launches himself at Kain, I am not sure I have seen a human do this yet Bowser seems to just do clumsy punches at sub-standard speeds.

Originally posted by BloodRain
IIRC you settled for your own versions and compromises pr1983 And wow and the generosity there, making with his massive strength difference a whole 1.46x Raziels! *que 'finding a LoZ item' music* Listen one more time; Your calculations say Bowser is only doing 1.46x the damage. One persons calc says he's around a thousand times and two have calced your method to be wrong with . Dont mind me for agreeing with what makes sense. So people agree/disagree with the calc.... before they see the calc? ....Riiiiiiight. "Hey gais! This guy can lift up 10 tons cos of this calc *shows*" "Ahh youre right Rain, he can" And thus I have convinced that person. If they agree, they're convinced. Leo iirc from old posts Ive seen and from that thread seems like he knows what he's on about, and Neme is a fan of maths, just doesnt usually make them himself. But they still understand it. And if they understand it, like i said, they're not hollow in their points. Id give up that mimic and repeating thing unless you understand the meaning. "People who do/know maths including myself say youre wrong" Yeah, not appeal to audience which is more "I think youre wrong cos other people think you are'' Difference is the former is due to the listed people knowing about it or have checked it out themselves who share the same view I have. But Ive already said this so Im sure youll just repeat 'appeal to audience' again no matter what.. You call it appeal to audience, I call it a gathering of people who have found the same view.

That area is not enough to launch someone as A- no person can take a blade to the body and B- No person has the strength to launch someone back a real distance. If however a person has the durability not to get pierced then they would be pushed back. Just like if i were to take a needle and stab a diamond, the diamond would be knocked back. If Kain is durable enough no to get stabbed then he would take the full force in the launch and follow the 3rd law.

But thats how it works. Especially that the strike/lift relationship which usually stays equal. An average body type, as in not one made for specific things like boxing or weightlifting, like a person or martial artist will have both of these forces acting interdependently of each other. The strike of a person is pretty much projectile like, it doesnt use the same force, and gives roughly the same amount of force:

NormGai: Can lift 30kg@3m/s [135J] and have an average punch force of about 100-150J [Average body; Equal]
MartialArtist: Can lift 70kg@3m/s [315J] and punch at 300J [Average body; Equal]
Weightlifter: Can lift 300kg@3m/s [1350J] and punch at 400J [Lifting body; Greater gap for lift]
Boxer: Can lift 90kg@3m/s [450J] and punch at 600J [Punching specific; Creates a gap with strike]
*Above are only examples and not specific people or at specific levels, only to demonstrate the different body-types lift force to their strike force.

Most people are either the average/fighter-type or a mix of weightlifter and boxer which is pretty much the same as the average/fighter-type.. but bulkier. EG everyone in debates that I remember are these types whos striking force matches their lifting force. Only exceptions would be a character that has shown to have their lifting force<their striking force or the other way round. If not, which would be pretty rare in the fiction world, then both forces are separate but generate the same force. The other things like magic, supernatural and/or divinity are all augmenting their force/strength/damage/etc so it's be the same as if they didnt have some other force amping them. [eg A 10 tonner, mach 1 guy whos that strong naturally is treated the same way a 10 tonner, mach 1 guy whos that strong because theyre some demon thing.]

And based on that "same view", most of whom these people are those you vouch for, not me you claim you have countered me, thats an appeal to audiance. It does not matter if you think they all have clever, unbias views and sun shines from their asses, they still have to all seperatly provide evidence, alongside your own (where is it?) that my calc is wrong, so far the entire formula we both use is being argued, not mine alone.

The rules are all the same, Kain being able to take the strike does not suddenly mean this force amplifies to cover his entire bodyweight. If I used a blunt knife and cannot cut say, a crusty loaf of bread or one of those really tough skinned oranges the PSI does not send it flying or me for that matter.

But again, your examples include real people. Their energy comes from muscle mass, weight etc. None of these games vs chracters do that, Kratos gets all his strength from some divine heritige, Dante devil powers, kain magic/supernatural forces. My point being, the whole view that their striking force includes their velocity max as well is flawed since most can strike faster than when they did the feat and some like Dante can apprently move in Mach speeds, you dont move mach speeds and not have increased force, Dantes, Kratos etc have equel force to someone far larger and heavier (probably someone whos muscles could crush buildings or something silly) but their speed is also superior and not necesserily part of their striking force e.g. Bay has magic for specific strengths and powers but her base speed is still damn high. Bay would have her force as seperate form her speed, therefore you cannot ignore her speed as if its simply part of the force.

If Kratos as I said used storoed energy solely to do his thousands of tons feats, then his strikes should be equivelent. So, extremely fast, not his typical normal speed.

Originally posted by Burning thought
According to your interesting find, its also a ball just a different shape to a sphere. Well maybe it looking like a sphere in the background is also a graphical thing, the mark is pretty obvious, its something you can see consistently throughout the scenes while we dont actually know what the balls dimentions really are without you trying to estimate it.

And according to you theres far more weight on the other side for it to pull, so it should fall over if you were correct, but it needs raziels push. What human are you comparing Kain to exactly? because some wear armoured suits, plus Raziel usually slouches, you cannot compare him to humans, hell even Kain often takes a low stance so I want to be clear.

As I said, shock absorbtion, using your theory he should not have moved at all or struggled so much with just the weight resting on him. If you realise 6.4k tons (the objects weight) makes Bowser struggle yet apprently you think his strength alone can stop a multiple of that x velocity (we cant use velocity omg! paradox!) then how does your logic stand up? because tbh I think its struggling alongside bowser. Raziel gives it the necessery energy to counterweight but apprently, too much energy since it bounced up the other side.

When so I can go and have a look out of interest? what threads? Not sure SSB is even canon to any games, although I would like to see him using his three longer claws ,all of them seem to be there to my eyes. Raziel can launch himself with agility far beyond a human and launches himself at Kain, I am not sure I have seen a human do this yet Bowser seems to just do clumsy punches at sub-standard speeds.

And based on that "same view", most of whom these people are those you vouch for, not me you claim you have countered me, thats an appeal to audiance. It does not matter if you think they all have clever, unbias views and sun shines from their asses, they still have to all seperatly provide evidence, alongside your own (where is it?) that my calc is wrong, so far the entire formula we both use is being argued, not mine alone.

The rules are all the same, Kain being able to take the strike does not suddenly mean this force amplifies to cover his entire bodyweight. If I used a blunt knife and cannot cut say, a crusty loaf of bread or one of those really tough skinned oranges the PSI does not send it flying or me for that matter.

..............[GLaDOSing]...................

Ok.. both items got cut due to their insufficient durability to what I was giving. Gonna try it on this 1ft wooden... blocky.. thing [seriously have no clue what it is O-o] and hit it with the bluntest knife I have, all the while hoping it doesnt snap off and fly at me. But I must test..

..............[GLaDOSing without needed goggles]...................

Right so Im not dead and it sent it back like it would if I hit it without, like the 3rd law said it would. Try it with a thin pen and anything that wont get pierced. Put decent force into it and it will be hit back by a decent amount. Or a pin and a rock.

But again, your examples include real people. Their energy comes from muscle mass, weight etc. None of these games vs chracters do that, Kratos gets all his strength from some divine heritige, Dante devil powers, kain magic/supernatural forces. My point being, the whole view that their striking force includes their velocity max as well is flawed since most can strike faster than when they did the feat and some like Dante can apprently move in Mach speeds, you dont move mach speeds and not have increased force, Dantes, Kratos etc have equel force to someone far larger and heavier (probably someone whos muscles could crush buildings or something silly) but their speed is also superior and not necesserily part of their striking force e.g. Bay has magic for specific strengths and powers but her base speed is still damn high. Bay would have her force as seperate form her speed, therefore you cannot ignore her speed as if its simply part of the force.

If Kratos as I said used storoed energy solely to do his thousands of tons feats, then his strikes should be equivelent. So, extremely fast, not his typical normal speed.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Impossible as Bowser does not have the proven power to harm Kain from the wraith blade like Raziel does.

Bowser is stronger than Raziel, though, so he does have the power. I wonder how that dark magic Bowser shrouds his claws in will work?

Same thing, if 9 million tons PSI cannot rip apart vampires, then how do you think humans are going to fair? their not even likely able to pierce them. Well actually, he was killed by a meat grinder, does not prove anything.

"Did not canonically try." As in, there is no evidence for durability. Impalement is an explicit weakness, so humans exploiting that weakness killed them. It's really simple.

You have made a claim that their pole-arms, that it, claiming humans have used polearms before on younger vampires in Blood omen era like the Sarafan knights or Demon hunters is not relevent.

Except that it is relevant, and establishes that the impalement weakness is commonly known. It's a stick with a pointy end, this by definition makes it a pole-arm. If you would like to argue that it is in fact a ranged weapon, please prevent evidence that differes from he previously established facts.

Whats that based on? Kain recovered slowly from having his heart torn out, or the heart of Darkness, he no longer has the heart nor does he have any loss of regeneration, as Raziel says they do not fear flesh deep attacks. You seem to confuse your own points, on one hand you have claimed Kain loses regen because since losing his heart he did not heal his chest (its gone from a hole to a scar, so you cant blame it for not being perfect) but now your claiming he has another heart to tear out, theres no heart at all.

Kain did not recover from that injury on his own, seeing as he had a hole in his chest. Since he did not regenerate it in any way, this indicates he has lost his regeneration. I'm only saying Bowser can tear his heart out on the assumption that you want Kain to regenerate, and therefore have a heart.

Its supported and your cutscenes are rendered the same as the wood,no wood burns up so fast. No, because you misunderstand why fire is a weakness. You cannot disprove how real fire works just because bowsers fire is rendered as quickly burning trees as well, this is just a open flame setting light to a large piece of wood, in seconds destroying it.

See, the problem here is that you are arguing against both canon and cuscenes, and in doing so have tried to get rid of any basis for how fire is known to affect vampires. Cutscene evidence still trumps your baseless claim that fire does not do what it is shown to do. And the sad thing is that what you're doing doesn't even matter because Bowser's fire breath is stronger anyway.

3 suggestions, I made suggestions on the vampires as well. Point being is that both burn extremely fast beyond real world, your argument hinges on the theory that its a weakness to vamps because they burn fast, apprently its also a weakness to this support in the same way, whats your answer to that, that its vampire wood or something? 😉

I can (and have) give several suggestions as to why the wood burned quickly. Such as being weakened by the fire and collapsing. Or it was extremely dry, or treated with fast burning chemicals at some point. But really, it doesn't matter, because again Bowser's fire trumps it by being far more powerful. He'd annihilate these vampires. You're trying to apply physics to fictional fire, when Bowser can burn things underwater.

The math is perfectly clear to me, I like how your so bias, the math for the 6000+ ton ball has not panned out yet but you still want to use it as a strength feat to say Bowser is superior. Well no, Bowsers>>trees, Kains greater pressure than most if not all of known metals.

The ball has panned out, you just refuse to acknowledge it. Besides, calculating mass is about the only thing I'm actually able to do, not your force calculations. I'll wait for a consensus in that math thread first. Don't forget Bowser is > stone and brick, not to mention his durability is > lava and the heat of stars. By your logic this makes Bowser far more durable than Kain. Still, you not yet establish a relationship between fire resistance and durability, and you are again ignoring the vampire weakness to fire.

No, the catch card "has a possiblity" of stealing "an enemies" soul, your using an o limits fallacy that it would effect on anyone, or indeed bowser. Theres things a durability/protection feat needs that my claim, base of an ability needs to work.

The Soul Reaver "has a possibility," too, unless you're going for a no limits fallacy. I never said it could steal anyone's soul, just that it did steal souls, and that Bowser is resistant or immune to it. Lots of things are resistant to it, this doesn't change Bowser's resistance/immunity. You still need to have a canon instance for your speed feat to work, so you should probably get on that.

Well its not the same instance, you see the sword is made to devour Raziel to make it the wraith blade, its nothing to do with Kain, the sword leeches Raziel to mend itself before. Kain cannot just "absorb" the wraith blade, thats the point of the defiance ending, the wraith blade is actually irrelevent at that point apart from of course striking Kains chest beforehand.

However, he is not bothered by the wound by the time Raziel hits him, and Raziel's soul is still being channeled through him. You can't deny that. Raziel was weakened during it, too. Kain was pierced and had his heart ripped out, and this pretty much invalidates Soul Reaver 2 as a calculation base.

You dont actually understand BO2 at all if you dont think its relevent. But then, your trying to argue that Kain can absorb the wraith blade to heal himself as well, so its not surprising.

It's not relevant, though, aside from giving Kain some new memories. Nothing else in it directly affects the rest of the series. You are aware Kain absorbs the wraith blade, aren't you? I mean, it's only the most important thing in Defiance. It heals him both physically (the sword scar and the hole) as well spiritually (his corruption.) Don't be strawmanning me.

indeed, internal damage like when Raziel strikes Kain with the wraith blade, but that does not mean the scar is going to suddenly get large.

Still a scar, still disappears after Kain absorbed the wraith blade. Still in the same spot as the sword.

Why would it need a canon instane? the dimension reaver is a speed feat by virtue of its scripted function, you dont understand how that works do you? Kain does not have to use it, for its scripted function to be true but you cannot understand how Bowser has to be hit by catchcard power to claim he actually has the feat.

Because rather obviously, if it never happened, why are you using to say Kain can react to it? Why would the catch card need a canon instance, then? Its scripted function is to steal souls and it's scripted to not work on Bowser. Mario doesn't have to use it for its scripted function to be true, nor does he have to use it for Bowser to have a scripted resistance. You're really reaching if you think this is any different.

Again, youve not proven yours. Claiming they look like polearms because once upon a time Sarafan used polearms does not give any facts. Thats not really a suggestion, thats a baseless claim altogether. I have the calculation and sources of Raziels strength a few pages ago in my math also whats the point in a respect thread if its not going to be used? If you want to quote or point me to the page in the bowser respect thread instead of re-posting evidence then thats fine, thats what I do with old information in other threads. reposting everything already shown over and over is pointless.

Again, you've not proven yours, either. Claiming that they are actually ranged weapons from a siege engine because...well you don't seem to actually have a reason aside from you don't like the evidence. So really, you have much less on this than I do, since I actually have historical precedent and you have absolutely nothing but a desperate last resort straw that you are unwilling to let go of.

Post your evidence or get out.

The dimension reavers speed is not random, it does not have any chance to fail, its scripted, stop reaching for something thats not there. The catchard simply says "it almost always works".

The catch card is not random, either, and it only fails again extremely powerful enemies with soul resistance, its scripted, too. Tje dimension reaver actually is random, since you can't choose the target, and it can fail to hit a certain enemy if that randomness decides to hit someone else. So really, trying to make a distinction between these is futile and I don't know why you continue.

Thats a baseless claim, that Bowser is extraordinary. Also That does not prove anything, how is a humab below baseline? it works against humans, therefore anything with human resistance or less is vulnerable, making the hasty generalisation that just because it works on humans, it does not work on anything else is illogical.

No, you're making assumptions again. Humans are stated to be vulnerable, that does not mean anything humanoid is vulnerable. It's illogical to generalize that because it works on humans it works on everything. Humans are the only things stated vulnerable, if you want to claim otherwise, prove it.

😆 Where is it stated their "below" the baseline? it just says human minds are "vulnerable", it does not hint that anything else is not, e.g. a dog, a cat etc are apprently by your logic less vulnerable than a human, its not stated.

You're assuming that human is baseline when it's not necessarily true. Dogs don't have human minds, so I see no reason they would be affected. In fact, the spell does not work on wolves in-game. Only humans are stated to be vulnerable, so there is no reason to assume a nonhuman would be vulnerable as well, you're just attempting a no limits fallacy on what it can target.

What were the bones? I find it hard to belive he can determine bones at the DNA scale.

...why do you believe that Mario is at the DNA scale when there are visible bones that I already showed you?

Kain does not have to react to anything because the scripted Dimension reaver is the reaction, a specific target is irrelevent.

The catch card is scripted, Bowser doesn't have to resist.

It does not move much faster than the boom boxes, also as I said the mario world in general is warped, toonforced to the point where a lot of things look slower or faster than they usually would be. If you want to claim a feat from base info then you canont look outside for info.

Rule 14? I expect you to prove this claim in any case, please go ahead and show that the speed of sound in Mario is slower.

Its stated to be sound blasts by the looks of it, or sonic blasts not an actual sound wave. Otherwise you cannot reall dodge sound, also another interesting thing to note is that the sonic creature itself makes a fairly obvious action before fireing so Mario could just as well be dodging the boom box things actions.

The statement is blasts of "pure sound." Game mechanic slow it down to be dodge-able, but it is still canonically blasts of sound that can be outrun.

I like how you ignore the evidence, Kain sees a mutated human, its in the script;

http://nosgoth.net/Blood_Omen/dialogue/page5.htm

Now your reaching that apparently it was nothing to do with the field, a mutated human just happend to be there, what a coincidence. Spawned by "this dark magic" is not surgery.

I didn't ignore the evidence; please read my posts. If you notice Anarcrothe has a laboratory devoted to these things; it's in that script you just linked. There's no evidence that it was instant at all.

This is not some guess, Kain is actually seeing this happen. Mutations apprently being part of it. I like how you forget the whole gameplay mechanic argument based around humans inside the field, as well as the fact they were creating the magic, theres no reason to suggest Kain is wrong just because some humans are spared for an unkown reason.

What life? Unspecified, there are no humans around. He may as well be talking about plants. Also, it doesn't count as me forgetting something if you just ignore the explanation I gave. Nothing prevented them from putting hearts of darkness or health vials, and making Dark Eden just like Malek's fortress, which notably didn't have chained humans. But no, they just put humans there.

Hardly falls flat, also what floating balls? vials? Some sustence is different to others although tbh, you cannot argue against a developers decisions, claiming there could be "other ways" to restore health does not change the fact theres humans there instead. How can a human resist when as stated earlier their twisted parodies? Nothing much can resist, only Kain.

Hearts of darkness or health vials. Again, Malek didn't have people chained up, and it worked with the story. Dark Eden didn't even have that. The humans were a conscious descision over over means of recovery. You're again assuming it affects all life when nothing is really specified, hasty generalization much? Yes, nothing resists aside from Kain, Anarcrothe, Bane, Dejoule, Malek, Vorador, the enemies, and several chained up humans, not to mention the human corpses in the lab. Yes, nothing resists. /sarcasm.

Human corpses, within the wizards spire, theres no indication the sphere that expands effects inside the spire since their magic rules here, do you think the Alchemist is sitting there going "damn, I have turned all my subjects into monsters!, nvm!", clearly theres some control going on.

There are still mutants inside the tower, so there's that. There's really not much of an indication it does anything to humans immediately. In fact, all this with the lab implies that humans aren't affected, but Anarcrothe is doing tests and turning them into monsters in his lab.

😆 assuming or guessing? theres a big swirling mass of energy that can be seen for miles, consuming life and yadda yadda what Kain says but Scenario would not jump to the conclusion the warped paradies later seen could possibly be anything to do with it, your reaching badly, especially when the script says "Encountering Dark Eden’s strange creatures: " above Kains VO.

He never actually sees a human in the process of being turned by Dark Eden, and he sees humans inside Dark Eden. There are partially human creatures, but Kain mentions grafts and "craftsmanship," like something that would be made in a lab.

So show me bowser doing it?

You should already know it happened before the game started.

Though the manual does say one day.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Bowser is stronger than Raziel, though, so he does have the power. I wonder how that dark magic Bowser shrouds his claws in will work?

"Did not canonically try." As in, there is no evidence for durability. Impalement is an explicit weakness, so humans exploiting that weakness killed them. It's really simple.

Except that it is relevant, and establishes that the impalement weakness is commonly known. It's a stick with a pointy end, this by definition makes it a pole-arm. If you would like to argue that it is in fact a ranged weapon, please prevent evidence that differes from he previously established facts.

Kain did not recover from that injury on his own, seeing as he had a hole in his chest. Since he did not regenerate it in any way, this indicates he has lost his regeneration. I'm only saying Bowser can tear his heart out on the assumption that you want Kain to regenerate, and therefore have a heart.

See, the problem here is that you are arguing against both canon and cuscenes, and in doing so have tried to get rid of any basis for how fire is known to affect vampires. Cutscene evidence still trumps your baseless claim that fire does not do what it is shown to do. And the sad thing is that what you're doing doesn't even matter because Bowser's fire breath is stronger anyway.

I can (and have) give several suggestions as to why the wood burned quickly. Such as being weakened by the fire and collapsing. Or it was extremely dry, or treated with fast burning chemicals at some point. But really, it doesn't matter, because again Bowser's fire trumps it by being far more powerful. He'd annihilate these vampires. You're trying to apply physics to fictional fire, when Bowser can burn things underwater.

The ball has panned out, you just refuse to acknowledge it. Besides, calculating mass is about the only thing I'm actually able to do, not your force calculations. I'll wait for a consensus in that math thread first. Don't forget Bowser is > stone and brick, not to mention his durability is > lava and [b]the heat of stars. By your logic this makes Bowser far more durable than Kain. Still, you not yet establish a relationship between fire resistance and durability, and you are again ignoring the vampire weakness to fire.

The Soul Reaver "has a possibility," too, unless you're going for a no limits fallacy. I never said it could steal anyone's soul, just that it did steal souls, and that Bowser is resistant or immune to it. Lots of things are resistant to it, this doesn't change Bowser's resistance/immunity. You still need to have a canon instance for your speed feat to work, so you should probably get on that.

However, he is not bothered by the wound by the time Raziel hits him, and Raziel's soul is still being channeled through him. You can't deny that. Raziel was weakened during it, too. Kain was pierced and had his heart ripped out, and this pretty much invalidates Soul Reaver 2 as a calculation base.

It's not relevant, though, aside from giving Kain some new memories. Nothing else in it directly affects the rest of the series. You are aware Kain absorbs the wraith blade, aren't you? I mean, it's only the most important thing in Defiance. It heals him both physically (the sword scar and the hole) as well spiritually (his corruption.) Don't be strawmanning me.

Still a scar, still disappears after Kain absorbed the wraith blade. Still in the same spot as the sword. [/B]

Not about strength.

He said he need to variate his tactics and much about chucking them in water. impalement is a consistent damage that they cannot heal from, does not mean the humans gain Raziel strength to pierce them in the first place.

You dont have facts like you keep claiming though, just your claim that its "just a stick with a pointy end" it also has prongs at the back that couldbe aerodynamic, no spear i have seen has that.

Scar, but he just got up and continued without any less performance than before. How can you regenerate something thats not even there? your not making sense now....

😆 No I am argueing against ignorance of a universe and poor interpretation on a game render, then countered it completly with my own canon. It does not matter if its stronger, not enough to beat Kain since Kain is more durable than trees.

A lot of fanciful claims that I can relate to vampires in some form, like heavy industry atmosphere=more flammable. Well I cannot argue with toonforce, although your the one claiming this is now working like real fire, somehow youve changed your tune.

😆 what daft bias, well I can say the same about my math then but people just refuse to acknowledge it. Well the same consensus would be on all KMC math since were all using the same formula thats wrong. Well no, not by my logic, if something has higher melting point, its going to be harder to burn to death.

Doesnt say that, again your twisting words poorely, catch card says on it that it may not work against anything really. Its not canon that it did, therefore how could he have resistance to something that did not happen?

Not sure about "not bothered" and Raziels being channeled through the Reaver. Nah, SR2 does not include the wraith blade, and it has them both at max strength, the only thing Raziel has going for him here in comaprison to SR 2 Raziel is he slashed with the wraith blade and may have got a few power ups.

The whole Sarafan lord thing is better drawn out, if you compare it to Defiance it adds up as part of the canon. He does not do it on the fly, whenever he liks, Raziel uses a purified version somehow to do it.

Show me, "the same spot as the sword", I dont recall.

Originally posted by The Scenario

Because its scripted to happen that way, the catch card A; is not scripted to work every time, B; Is not scripted to hit bowser. How do you know? could just have been unlucky and not worked on him, although again this is boss gameplay mechanics.

I dont have to, which is the beaty of it because I am not making the claim, you are, I dont give a damn what killed or defeated the vampires, but you cant prove a damn either 😄 . You have some flawed belief that just because spears were once used eons ago that their automatically used now, despite flamethrowers and launching devices present. If anything, my conclusion is more likely, since humans cannot>tons of durability.

😆 hypocrite, you dont even understand what your argueing for, I dont care what killed them, its your argument not mine.

😬 The actual scene you showed when its picked up implies it is, you cant be "almost always works" and still be a scripted to wor weapon. I dont know why your reaching ad nauseum to try and compare a boss gameplay mechanic instance that you cant show anyway vs a scripted ability. As I said before, it would like me claiming the catchcard does not do what it says it can do, thats what your doing to the dimention reaver.

It does not state humans are the only thing, your making a hasty generalisation and some poor logic in general. Show me where it states "humans are only affected", I dont know how your getting that from "the human mind is a vulnerable thing".

Its not a no limits fallacy when I point out it works on things at human resistance and below.

i thought you said he was at DNA scale? The game says microscopic size, how can you see bones so solid if he was that small? How do you know their bones since I dont recall bones as smal las that on a microscrope or more important that shape.

He does if you want a durability feat, its not scripted to hit him.

What about Rule 14? it does not turn toonforce into reality for you unfortunatly, it simply means I cannot completly disregard the whole thing as nonsense so I am argueing it as per Rule 14 "portrayed in the universe", if sound is portrayed as that slow then fine.

Blasts of sound, its not a wave like real sound being vibrations in the air. I agree its a game mechanic that Mario can dodge it, but its nothing to do with speed, most if not all things are about as slow as that.

A Lab that was inside the fortress. not sure what this was countering, I never said anything about instant.

To cover the next two points, the script points out humans as mutated, second Kain also points out the whole thing is under the wizards control so if they want experiments or test subjects to hang around on chains, theres no reason why not. Good job, most if not all of them apart from Kain never stepped foot outside the Wizards tower, some of which are actually the wizards who made it.

Well I wonder how they got in there, they could not have possibly walked in like Kain, they had to have been transformed then and there.

He points out dark magic, not surgery reading comprehension ftw.

So its a useless comment to make, we dont know anything about it.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Not about strength.

Good, since we know Bowser can pierce him.

He said he need to variate his tactics and much about chucking them in water. impalement is a consistent damage that they cannot heal from, does not mean the humans gain Raziel strength to pierce them in the first place.

No, he said they regenerate, so he'd have to adjust his tactics. Vampires fear wounds that impale and inflame, mostly because they halt regeneration and kill them. Nothing is said about durability, and evidence shows that human strength can pierce them.

You dont have facts like you keep claiming though, just your claim that its "just a stick with a pointy end" it also has prongs at the back that couldbe aerodynamic, no spear i have seen has that.

Except the Sarafan spears? Because they're pretty much identical to those used by the Sarafan. As melee weapons. Do you actually have anything to suggest that these are ranged weapons, or are just trying to cast doubt on things so you don' have to use evidence? If the latter, I'm sorry to say it doesn't work like that. Put up or shut up, and show me that siege weapon.

Scar, but he just got up and continued without any less performance than before. How can you regenerate something thats not even there? your not making sense now....

...what? Regeneration basically boils down to "replacing something that's not there anymore," you regenerate things that aren't there by the very definition of regeneration. Kain failed to regenerate his heart, as well as the skin around his heart, and the surface skin, which can be seen as the huge hole in his chest. He obviously can't regenerate any more, not sure why you would think otherwise given the evidence.

😆 No I am argueing against ignorance of a universe and poor interpretation on a game render, then countered it completly with my own canon. It does not matter if its stronger, not enough to beat Kain since Kain is more durable than trees.

Kain is not proven to have any more fire resistance than trees, or other vampires for that matter. Since you apparently disregard the canon of your own side when it suits you. You have yet to actually address the cutscenes of two vampires burning to death, so good luck with that.

A lot of fanciful claims that I can relate to vampires in some form, like heavy industry atmosphere=more flammable. Well I cannot argue with toonforce, although your the one claiming this is now working like real fire, somehow youve changed your tune.

When did I claim it works like real fire? I'm going by what the canon of both games actually shows, which is that vampires are killed by fire, and Bowser's flame is far more powerful than anything Nosgothic vampires have ever been exposed. Given Kain's lack of fire resistance and stated weakness to fire, Bowser should have no trouble incinerating him.

😆 what daft bias, well I can say the same about my math then but people just refuse to acknowledge it. Well the same consensus would be on all KMC math since were all using the same formula thats wrong. Well no, not by my logic, if something has higher melting point, its going to be harder to burn to death.

Bias. Anyway, people are already questioning your math and telling you that it's wrong, so until that issue is solved I would not recommend using those numbers. As for the melting point, that's not what you're doing; you're trying to equate resistance to claws with resistance to fire, which is flawed reasoning. For instance, the metal tungsten has the highest melting point out of any non-alloy metal, but is weak enough to be cut and shaped with human strength. (Experiment: Go find a lightbulb and remove the filament, then try to bend it. You'll find that the tungsten in the filament is quite easy to bend or break, despite the high temperature lightbulbs generate.) Kain is just going to burst into flames regardless, since it's a vampire thing to do.

Doesnt say that, again your twisting words poorely, catch card says on it that it may not work against anything really. Its not canon that it did, therefore how could he have resistance to something that did not happen?

Actually, you're the one twisting words, since the actual quote is that it "almost always works." This outright states that failure is very rare, and this is demonstrated by it only rarely failing against the strongest enemies in the game. Experiment #2: Try turning your argument around- It's not canon that Kain used the dimension reaver, therefore how can he react to something that did not happen? Once you answer that question, apply the answer you got to the catch card. It'll be like a magic trick when the answers are the same.

Not sure about "not bothered" and Raziels being channeled through the Reaver. Nah, SR2 does not include the wraith blade, and it has them both at max strength, the only thing Raziel has going for him here in comaprison to SR 2 Raziel is he slashed with the wraith blade and may have got a few power ups.

Consider how Kain looks and acts during the scene. Once he starts channeling Raziel's soul through his body, he's far more concerned for Raziel and has stopped breathing heavily. He seemed to have recovered pretty quickly, didn't he? In Defiance, Raziel was weaker than normal while Kain seemed to be better, yet he was still defeated and pierced.

The whole Sarafan lord thing is better drawn out, if you compare it to Defiance it adds up as part of the canon. He does not do it on the fly, whenever he liks, Raziel uses a purified version somehow to do it.

Show me, "the same spot as the sword", I dont recall.

That may be, but as it is not part of the alpha timeline, not all of it is relevant. Him lacking a scar in the game doesn't affect the scar in the other games.

Because its scripted to happen that way, the catch card A; is not scripted to work every time, B; Is not scripted to hit bowser. How do you know? could just have been unlucky and not worked on him, although again this is boss gameplay mechanics.

You really love latching on the smallest detail, don't you? Honestly, it is scripted to never fail on weaker enemies, rarely fail on strong ones, and always fail on, say, Bowser. Refer to Experiment #2 on this.

I dont have to, which is the beaty of it because I am not making the claim, you are, I dont give a damn what killed or defeated the vampires, but you cant prove a damn either 😄 . You have some flawed belief that just because spears were once used eons ago that their automatically used now, despite flamethrowers and launching devices present. If anything, my conclusion is more likely, since humans cannot>tons of durability.

Not really. What you're actually doing is trying to submit a counter claim without evidence and force me disprove it. Needless to say, this is a red herring while you try to escape the original point. I have already established a historical precedent and use of the weapons, which is good enough to suit my purpose. If you would like to submit a counter claim, please present some actual evidence.

😆 hypocrite, you dont even understand what your argueing for, I dont care what killed them, its your argument not mine.

Hypocrite. It's your claim that there was a siege engine. I don' have to disprove this. You have to prove it. This is how real debates work.

😬 The actual scene you showed when its picked up implies it is, you cant be "almost always works" and still be a scripted to wor weapon. I dont know why your reaching ad nauseum to try and compare a boss gameplay mechanic instance that you cant show anyway vs a scripted ability. As I said before, it would like me claiming the catchcard does not do what it says it can do, thats what your doing to the dimention reaver.

I don't think you understand what's going on here. There are 2 separate items, the catch card, and the catch card SP (the one we are using here, just called 'catch card' for convenience.) The catch card sometimes fails, but is still scripted in how it works. The SP version is similar, but powered up to the point it almost never fails, except against stuff like Bowser. It is still scripted in how it works. What I think you are failing to grasp is that it only fails on things that are specifically resistant to it. If it doesn't work, the guy you used it on has too much soul resistance. As for the dimensional reaver, it seems you still do not understand my actual point. I'm not saying that it fails to do what it is supposed to do. My argument is that it has never canonically happened, so there is no evidence that Kain can react at superhuman speeds. Which is of course, your argument, only inverted.

It does not state humans are the only thing, your making a hasty generalisation and some poor logic in general. Show me where it states "humans are only affected", I dont know how your getting that from "the human mind is a vulnerable thing".

You're making the mistake of assuming that it affects anything nonhuman as well, based on insufficient evidence. Where did you get "it can affect a turtle dragon with a computer for a brain" out of "the human mind is a vulnerable thing"? Really, it makes no logical sense to assume that a spell stated to affect only human minds would extend to non humans as well. Because they are not human, they not stated to be vulnerable. Also, you are using hasty generalization wrong.

Its not a no limits fallacy when I point out it works on things at human resistance and below.

Resistance is not a factor when the mind in question is completely alien to all laws of biology. In addition to being nonhuman, which means it is not vulnerable.

i thought you said he was at DNA scale? The game says microscopic size, how can you see bones so solid if he was that small? How do you know their bones since I dont recall bones as smal las that on a microscrope or more important that shape.

I said he was at the cellular scale at first, but it seems to vary occasionally. The design of that area is very skeletal, how are you not seeing bones there?

He does if you want a durability feat, its not scripted to hit him.

Exactly. It's scripted to not work on him, so that means he has soul resistance. That is, assuming you allow Kain to have his speed feat despite not canonically reacting to it.

What about Rule 14? it does not turn toonforce into reality for you unfortunatly, it simply means I cannot completly disregard the whole thing as nonsense so I am argueing it as per Rule 14 "portrayed in the universe", if sound is portrayed as that slow then fine.

Ha, nice try. But truly, sound still works fine in Mario, and there's no indication it moves slower than the speed of sound. You're still trying to disregard i as toonforce, when it's explicitly stated to be at the speed of sound. Again, I expect you to present evidence that the speed of sound is different in Mario, lest I remind you that all setting are assumed earthlike.

Blasts of sound, its not a wave like real sound being vibrations in the air. I agree its a game mechanic that Mario can dodge it, but its nothing to do with speed, most if not all things are about as slow as that.

That just indicates projectiles are fast, nothing new here. You've never heard of a sonic weapon, though? They work through sound waves, too.

A Lab that was inside the fortress. not sure what this was countering, I never said anything about instant.

Dark Eden is not helpful to you if it takes days to turn a human. The lab establishes that there are human remains inside Dark Eden, and those remains have not been affected.

To cover the next two points, the script points out humans as mutated, second Kain also points out the whole thing is under the wizards control so if they want experiments or test subjects to hang around on chains, theres no reason why not. Good job, most if not all of them apart from Kain never stepped foot outside the Wizards tower, some of which are actually the wizards who made it.

There are mutants inside the tower as well, and things inside resemble the exterior. This indicates that the effect is still inside the tower. However, since humans seem mostly unaffected and grafts are referenced, in addition to the labs, it indicates the muants are made later.

Well I wonder how they got in there, they could not have possibly walked in like Kain, they had to have been transformed then and there.

Not necessarily. Evidence indicates Anarcrothe was doing experiments to make them inside the labs, since humans seem mostly unaffected by Dark Eden.

He points out dark magic, not surgery reading comprehension ftw.

Those two aren't mutually exclusive. Surgery with dark magic seems to be one of Anarcrothe's specialties, give his lab.

So its a useless comment to make, we dont know anything about it.

On the contrary, we know Bowser has the power to transform Kain into a brick.

Originally posted by The Scenario

Well we dont know, evidence suggests he should be able to pierce Kains first layer of skin.

although its true vampires cannot heal wounds that fill or burn away the areas they would usually have, this does not tkae away from the fact a guy with such strength and piercing power cannot cut them up, Raziel succeeds in impalement and such but his strength is so much more than a humans.

Show me a sarafan spear, then show me this spear, I doubt its identicle and the Sarafan are long dead, afterall their leaders are standing as vampire rulers at Kains side as his sons and have been for a thousand years. A siege weapon is one suggestion, a powerful launching device is another and we have a launching device as shown earlier, thats whats necessery to break tons of durability.

Not really, to renew or regenerate usually refers to tissues, not a full heart remake, I never claimed Kain can regenerate every organ in his body least of all the heart of darkness which would be a paradox anyway. Vampires generally cannot regen from deep attacks, the evidence is your interpretation, I dont see any hole, more a scar.

I have addressed it by pointing out wood burns in seconds as well, so the LoK fire is for some reason or another intensified beyond most standards.

Not really, all Bowser has done is burn down trees, Dumah can stand in an industrial furnace for a good few seconds without melting.

Your apprently using other numbers all from the same formula, otherwise how do you know bowser is stronger than Raz? 🙂 Its not a vampire thing to do, it seems to be a general reaction to fire in LoK soul reaver.

Its not scripted that bowser or any enemy gets hit by catch card, it is scripted that Kains ability does what it shows.

Further evidence of Kains incredble durability. 😆 Kain seemed to be better? he just ended up knocked away, bleeding from the wraith blade, the fact it even made him bleed is pretty incredible.

Why? Theres no reason to suggest Kain since BO2 and Defiance has somehow gained a scar you claim he had before (which I thought true as well but BO2 is canon). So, either he was healed at some point before and this dark mark is an anomoly OR the scar has been retconned.

Originally posted by The Scenario

Show me, you cant prove this thesis.

I never asked you to prove my suggestions wrong, only for yours to be right and "sarafan used spears a thousand+ years ago!" does not give any facts or evidence to suggest whoever used these spears (organised non vampire worshiper humans of this era use flamethrowers and a known ranged weapon) beat tons of durability.

It was my suggestion, one of many more likely suggestions than SR era humans dropped their flamethrowers and crossbow things and took up spears belonging to 1000 year old warriors.

Your adding "specifically resistant" to cover a gameplay mechanic, theres no canon and the scripted effect is still only "almost", you would have to prove something happened to get the effect. It would be like me assuming Kain is immune to everything Raziel can dish out, all the elements and his strikes just because as a boss he does not take any visible damage.

😆 its not my argument inverted, your claiming the scripted reflexes and general speed of an ability is null purely because I counter you by claiming a catchcard was not used on Bowser.

What insufficent evidence? its like me claiming the Star rod or bowsers powers have not worked on a Nosgoth vampire therefore you have no sufficent evidence that they will now. Absolute nonsense, its worked on something of human level resistance, therefore until you prove Bowser is>>>Human level resistance to a shock to the brain/mind or w/e you have no case.

Not really, your evidence that humans are the only ones vulnerable is based solely on the fact they were vulnerable to it, terrible reasoning, although your logic is off.

😆 "the mind is alien" therefore immune! Kains technically alien and supernaturally opposite to laws of biology, therefore he cannot be harmed by Bowsers star rod or his powers? see what I did there?

Your percieving bones, but bone are not microscopic iirc, tbh I have not traveled around the body on a micro scale so I dont think either of us know how every cell would look from that standpoint.

Its not scripted to hit him at all though, theres nothing suggesting it ever happened, Kain does not have to actually do the dimentional port for its scripted statistics to be true. Again, your discarding an abilities power just because I disagree your ability even happened, if I disregarded the catch cards power like you did mine I would have to claim that it cannot do what it says it can do.

I dont think theres any such thing as a sonic blast.

Kain was percieving things changing constantly around him as I have shown before. The barrier warps things as it expands and touches them. Technically, human remains inside the wizards tower, different tbh.

Wrong, Kain points out how space and time may have been altered, differnt magic and effects, why you think wizards would create a dome that would affect themselves in the first place is anyones guess. Kain claimed it "appeared to be the work of dark magic", Dark magic was mentioned not surgery.

If it was done using dark magic then that can include the expanding barrier, why would you need a lab for magic when the expanding dome of reality warping is according to Kain creating "paraodies of life" and "mutations".

We dont know how, how long it takes, and based on Dark Eden it wont work. Also no limits fallacy, it works on a few mushrooms yet you claim it can work on who else? anyone? Kratos, Galactus, living tribunal, Thanos etc?

Your also a hypocrite, it works on mushrooms yet you dont use the same rules you want to use for Kains stun spell on the brick power, e.g. only mushrooms are possible targets.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Well we dont know, evidence suggests he should be able to pierce Kains first layer of skin.

And then the rest of them, likely going through his chest and ou the other side. Depending on whether he uses his magic.

although its true vampires cannot heal wounds that fill or burn away the areas they would usually have, this does not tkae away from the fact a guy with such strength and piercing power cannot cut them up, Raziel succeeds in impalement and such but his strength is so much more than a humans.

You don't know that he can't, as by your argument he never canonically tried. See, I'd be perfectly willing to let you have this, if you would extend the same courtesy to Bowser.

Show me a sarafan spear, then show me this spear, I doubt its identicle and the Sarafan are long dead, afterall their leaders are standing as vampire rulers at Kains side as his sons and have been for a thousand years. A siege weapon is one suggestion, a powerful launching device is another and we have a launching device as shown earlier, thats whats necessery to break tons of durability.

Done and done. That's more than identical. What launching device? You never showed a launching device. I would know, I've been asking for one for several pages now.

Not really, to renew or regenerate usually refers to tissues, not a full heart remake, I never claimed Kain can regenerate every organ in his body least of all the heart of darkness which would be a paradox anyway. Vampires generally cannot regen from deep attacks, the evidence is your interpretation, I dont see any hole, more a scar.

Yes, they can't regenerate deep wounds, which is why impalement is so threatening and humans could kill them with it. I still see a hole there. It's right on the character model.

I have addressed it by pointing out wood burns in seconds as well, so the LoK fire is for some reason or another intensified beyond most standards.

Bowser burns wood in seconds. This invalidates whatever you're trying to claim here.

Not really, all Bowser has done is burn down trees, Dumah can stand in an industrial furnace for a good few seconds without melting.

First of all, I have shown you Bowser destroying brick and stone with fireballs. You keep ignoring this for some reason. Second, Dumah does not melt. Vampires do not melt. They burn. There is a difference. Dumah caught fire immediately, and Bowser has been demonstrably above that furnace anyway.

Your apprently using other numbers all from the same formula, otherwise how do you know bowser is stronger than Raz? 🙂 Its not a vampire thing to do, it seems to be a general reaction to fire in LoK soul reaver.

I just go with lifting and mass, none of this force/acceleration/pressure stuff. Much simpler. Based on mass, Bowser's iron ball is over 6000 tons vs. Raziel's 300 ton obelisk. 6000 divided by 300 being exactly 20, Bowser has supported an object 20 times heavier than Raziel has. Wasn't that simple and easy? Trying to get more exact than that is just a waste of time and effort, since all of these are estimated anyway.

Its not scripted that bowser or any enemy gets hit by catch card, it is scripted that Kains ability does what it shows.

It's not canon that Kain ever reacts to the teleport, in the same way it isn't canon that Bowser gets hit. I notice you trying to twist words there, and I commend the effort. Sorry.

Further evidence of Kains incredble durability. 😆 Kain seemed to be better? he just ended up knocked away, bleeding from the wraith blade, the fact it even made him bleed is pretty incredible.

Not durability; regeneration, plus channeling Raziel's soul. It only hit the surface, after all, so not deep. Kain could still regenerate at that point, so it looks like he did, likely with a little help. Then, of course, Raziel removed his heart and his regeneration failed forever.

Why? Theres no reason to suggest Kain since BO2 and Defiance has somehow gained a scar you claim he had before (which I thought true as well but BO2 is canon). So, either he was healed at some point before and this dark mark is an anomoly OR the scar has been retconned.

Except that Blood Omen 2 Kain is not physically the same as Blood Omen to Soul Reaver Kain. More likely, it was part of the Cabal healing him in Blood Omen 2, which did not happen to the true Kain. The scar returns in Defiance, only to suddenly disappear after the Wraith Blade purifies and heals him.

Show me, you cant prove this thesis.

Not sure what you're referring to here. If you're talking about the scar, it shows up in the intro of Defiance.

I never asked you to prove my suggestions wrong, only for yours to be right and "sarafan used spears a thousand+ years ago!" does not give any facts or evidence to suggest whoever used these spears (organised non vampire worshiper humans of this era use flamethrowers and a known ranged weapon) beat tons of durability.

I just want you to give evidence for your suggestions. I would rather drop this point, too, since it's essentially the same one as above, and I already proved it's the same weapon up there.

It was my suggestion, one of many more likely suggestions than SR era humans dropped their flamethrowers and crossbow things and took up spears belonging to 1000 year old warriors.

Likely or not, without evidence it's just conjecture. As it stands, it certainly looks like they took up Sarafan weapons and killed the Dumahim, given that they're identical. It's possible it wasn't even the Citadel humans that did it, though I have no idea who else could have. Perhaps it was before the flamethrowers became prevalent, but still fairly recent.

Your adding "specifically resistant" to cover a gameplay mechanic, theres no canon and the scripted effect is still only "almost", you would have to prove something happened to get the effect. It would be like me assuming Kain is immune to everything Raziel can dish out, all the elements and his strikes just because as a boss he does not take any visible damage.

The canon scripted effect is soul stealing, just that it doesn't always work on resistant foes. In the first video I linked of this, it did catch the enemy it was used on. Here, like 30 seconds after he picks it up. That just doesn't work on Bowser. The fact it wasn't canonically used on him is still the same as claiming Kain has super reactions when the dimension reaver is not canonically used.

😆 its not my argument inverted, your claiming the scripted reflexes and general speed of an ability is null purely because I counter you by claiming a catchcard was not used on Bowser.

Except it is. I can't prove that the catch card was used on Bowser, yes, so its hard to claim soul resistance. But then, you can't prove that the dimension reaver was used, so its hard to prove reaction time. Since neither canonically happen. If you want one, gotta have the other.

What insufficent evidence? its like me claiming the Star rod or bowsers powers have not worked on a Nosgoth vampire therefore you have no sufficent evidence that they will now. Absolute nonsense, its worked on something of human level resistance, therefore until you prove Bowser is>>>Human level resistance to a shock to the brain/mind or w/e you have no case.

All the statement says is "human minds are fragile." You cannot extend this to non-humans just because you want to. It's like saying that dunking a vampire in water will dissolve them, so dunking a human in water will dissolve them. Or that sunlight kills vampires, so it must kill humans, too. It's an explicit vulnerability (or weakness) only they have, that does not apply to anything else. Do you think kryptonite immobilizes people just because it does so to Superman? Do you think the color yellow could stop Kain's powers because it used to stop Green Lanterns? Do you honestly, really think, that somebody's weakness will affect someone not weak to it? The only way to affect Bowser with this would be to prove that he's human. Are you going to try that?

Not really, your evidence that humans are the only ones vulnerable is based solely on the fact they were vulnerable to it, terrible reasoning, although your logic is off.

You're the one trying to extend it to everything without limits. I'm just saying you should limit it to what it has affected, since that's all you can prove.

😆 "the mind is alien" therefore immune! Kains technically alien and supernaturally opposite to laws of biology, therefore he cannot be harmed by Bowsers star rod or his powers? see what I did there?

Yeah, you failed pretty hard giving a terrible example. The Star Rod grants wishes, it is magic that defies all natural law. It can make you immortal by tearing out your heart, for example. It can teleport a castle underground, beneath another castle, and then lift both into space. It can make lightning strike, indoors! As for the actual argument, Bowser's mind is so far from human I see no reason it should be considered a mind. In Bowser's head, there is a computer, operated by a shapeshifting robot, which assembles Bowser's thoughts via puzzle pieces and picture boxes. Do you honestly think this qualifies as anywhere near human enough to be vulnerable to the same thing a human would be?

Your percieving bones, but bone are not microscopic iirc, tbh I have not traveled around the body on a micro scale so I dont think either of us know how every cell would look from that standpoint.

You can tell what inspired the area. The floor resembles a macro spinal cord.

Its not scripted to hit him at all though, theres nothing suggesting it ever happened, Kain does not have to actually do the dimentional port for its scripted statistics to be true. Again, your discarding an abilities power just because I disagree your ability even happened, if I disregarded the catch cards power like you did mine I would have to claim that it cannot do what it says it can do.

I'm pretty sure we're discussing the same exact thing in three separate paragraphs. Go argue in one of those.

I dont think theres any such thing as a sonic blast.

Wanna bet?

Not so much blast as short, high frequency vibrations are capable of messing up your internal organs royally. (Pistol Shrimp is basically a sonic boom, btw.)

Kain was percieving things changing constantly around him as I have shown before. The barrier warps things as it expands and touches them. Technically, human remains inside the wizards tower, different tbh.

He didn't see human in the process of being changed. He saw what he assumed to be a human after Dark Eden allegedly changed it.

Wrong, Kain points out how space and time may have been altered, differnt magic and effects, why you think wizards would create a dome that would affect themselves in the first place is anyones guess. Kain claimed it "appeared to be the work of dark magic", Dark magic was mentioned not surgery.

Why not mention that the effect didn't extend to inside the tower? Probably because the tower was the source. Dark magic was mentioned alongside things "grafted" together, as in two separate thing stitched together, in addition to there being a "creator." Which is basically what Anarcrothe was doing. He was doing both dark magic and surgery, it seems.

If it was done using dark magic then that can include the expanding barrier, why would you need a lab for magic when the expanding dome of reality warping is according to Kain creating "paraodies of life" and "mutations".

Ask Anarcrothe, he still had test subjects in there, after all. Perhaps he was making the mutations more controllable. What's better, a completely random transformation, or knowing exactly what you'll get? Anarcrothe evidently went for the latter with his lab, implied to be the creator of those grafts Kain saw.

We dont know how, how long it takes, and based on Dark Eden it wont work. Also no limits fallacy, it works on a few mushrooms yet you claim it can work on who else? anyone? Kratos, Galactus, living tribunal, Thanos etc?

People without resistance? Like Kain, since Dark Eden didn't turn out that great?

Your also a hypocrite, it works on mushrooms yet you dont use the same rules you want to use for Kains stun spell on the brick power, e.g. only mushrooms are possible targets.

Well there's no statement that only mushroom people are vulnerable. Maybe it is said "Mushroom people's bodies are mutable, just a little magic and they turn into bricks." But no, there's nothing that limits the targets like the stun spell does. I think you've also missed that "mushroom people" is actually just humans in the Mushroom Kingdom, since it identifies Princess Peach as a mushroom person.

Originally posted by The Scenario

Not based on evidence, this is a fiction your speaking of now.

Why does raziel have to try when he already knows their strengths/weaknesses and says in-canon that he cannot just rip them in half? Why would someone who can rip them apart claim he has to use different tactics? makes no sense.

First their a different design, second the edge the Sarafan in your image use to strike with is on the other end of the shaft, e.g. at the back. yes I did, I showed you a guy with a flamethrower, and a guy with a launching weapon earlier.

You have to make a deep wound for a vampire not be able to regen from it and keep the weapon/object that did it there otherwise they return.

It does not invalidate it because that was not the argument.

Destroying is not the same as melting/burning. An industrial furnace of normal size, let alone a giant one that creates explosions when its used is far beyond burning wood...this is not a log fire were talking about here.

Well you would be wrong to do so, pressure is what does the damage not just the mass. I would rather have an estimae of pressure than an estimate of mass.....which is useless.

But its scripted that he does, just like its scripted that the catch card "can" take souls. That does not mean it has to, or has done, which is relevent when descirbing a feat context sensitive.

Thats like saying smashing you with a baseball bat in the chest did not do much damage if your chest did not burst open, you could still have organ failure or cracked ribs. This whole "heart"="regen" theory is funny, its completly baseless but your only claim that it did affect regen is because Kain did not regen from an attack as deep and as destructive as you can get on him.

What makes you say that concerning BO Kain? hes not much different iirc, a few hundred years older perhaps but by comparison to evolved Kain hes vastly different yes. Its speculation that the cabal healed him though, it just is not there or mentioned and your claim is that apprently this dark mark which looks far too large for a small sword strike is the scar again.

You have proven that the Sarafan used a weapon thats not actually an impaling polearm but some sort of staff axe with two bladed sides that look unique to those spears.

Its just common sense really, your claim is based on illogical events and not backed by anything other than your belief that these sarafan weapons from thousands of years ago are lieing around. If it was from before the flamethrowers and ranged weapons then iit could just have well been long before the vampires evolved/devolved so much.

Originally posted by The Scenario

Well your adding the "resistant foes" bit, I have yet to see evidence for this thesis. Its not the same because the whole of my claim is based purely on how the ability works, yours is based on who it affects, Kains dimentional teleport is the same ability regardless whos around. I like how yo post a video of the guy behaving in exactly the way I imagined, he was hoping it would "work", so theres a chance of failure regardless of the target apprently.

Well no, my argument is based purely on the ability, yours is based on the target.

Erm no, your examples are awful, Kain simply points out human minds are fragile, therefore logic dicates anything of human resistance or below is fair game. It never states that its a human weakness, only that human minds are fragile...your adding what you want to see. No, I just have to take into account Bowser has no proven resistance more than a human mind, therefore fair game.

Your making some no limit fallacies, it works on little stars, thats it. No vampires? by your logic he cant use his powers on Vampires. If anything, the fact its a computer along with a tiny machine makes a shock seem even more effective doesnt it really.

"resembles" but not necesserily is.

Different weapon then, high frequency waves vs what looks like a small ball of energy or something...

The script confirms it as a mutated human, further Kain knows what a human is, infact if anything he could probably identify one better than you based on blood, not just appearance but tbh your making an illogical reach here that apprently this mutation was just a coincidence and came from thin air...

Well the sorcerors are the source, but the inside of the tower has other warping reality powers like bending space as Kain points out. The defintion of graft is simply to unite, and Kain points out how; Dark magic. Theres no indication of surgery.

Dark Eden is perfect, Kain was completly untouched by something that warps almost all things, you picking at random points does not deny the actual canon.

The stun spell does not limit targets, only points out what it did effect, the transformation has only affected Mushroom people apprently therefore only they are targets.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Not based on evidence, this is a fiction your speaking of now.

Based on Bowser being so much stronger than Raziel, you mean? Bowser wouldn't have a problem piercing Kain with that.

Why does raziel have to try when he already knows their strengths/weaknesses and says in-canon that he cannot just rip them in half? Why would someone who can rip them apart claim he has to use different tactics? makes no sense.

Where does he say he cannot rip them in half? As I recall, he just mentions changing his tactics, which do not include ripping things in half, btw. You don't really have any evidence of this alleged durability, do you?

First their a different design, second the edge the Sarafan in your image use to strike with is on the other end of the shaft, e.g. at the back. yes I did, I showed you a guy with a flamethrower, and a guy with a launching weapon earlier.

Hardly a different design, they're practically identical. I'm not really sure what you're talking about with the edge, as tha Sarafan are still shown to impale vampires. Where did you show a launching weapon that could fire pole-arms of that size? As I recall, you showed a tiny crossbow that fired normal arrows. I hope you realize that isn't enough for what you're claiming.

You have to make a deep wound for a vampire not be able to regen from it and keep the weapon/object that did it there otherwise they return.

And this is a problem for Bowser how? Tearing the heart out works, too, as Janos and Kain so helpfully demonstrate. Vorador himself contributes by showing decapitation or limb removal works as well. Note I'm still talking about regeneration.

Destroying is not the same as melting/burning. An industrial furnace of normal size, let alone a giant one that creates explosions when its used is far beyond burning wood...this is not a log fire were talking about here.

Destroying with fire is apparently not the same as melting or burning now?. I'm not sure you're grasping what burning stone and brick really means against a furnace with no real feats beyond kinetic force.

Well you would be wrong to do so, pressure is what does the damage not just the mass. I would rather have an estimae of pressure than an estimate of mass.....which is useless.

And attempting to calculate pressure is far more trouble than it's worth, especially in regard to casual debating like this. I've seen the math thread, and simplification is the best solution. Bowser is stronger than Raziel, and has claws. Good enough.

But its scripted that he does, just like its scripted that the catch card "can" take souls. That does not mean it has to, or has done, which is relevent when descirbing a feat context sensitive.

It's not really scripted that he reacts to it, though. You still would need a canon instance to prove he can do it, as per the rules you're trying to use, and the way you're trying to get the feat. Same situation for Bowser's immunity, as Bowser is in fact scripted to be immune, but you insist on him needing a canon stance.

Thats like saying smashing you with a baseball bat in the chest did not do much damage if your chest did not burst open, you could still have organ failure or cracked ribs. This whole "heart"="regen" theory is funny, its completly baseless but your only claim that it did affect regen is because Kain did not regen from an attack as deep and as destructive as you can get on him.

'k, so your argument is that Kain had organ failure or cracked ribs for some reason. Regardless, look at the evidence: Kain with heart = regeneration. Kain without heart = no regeneration. This can be seen in cutscene, since Kain does not regenerate after his heart is removed. By your argument, Kain simply fails to regenerate on his own.

What makes you say that concerning BO Kain? hes not much different iirc, a few hundred years older perhaps but by comparison to evolved Kain hes vastly different yes. Its speculation that the cabal healed him though, it just is not there or mentioned and your claim is that apprently this dark mark which looks far too large for a small sword strike is the scar again.

Umah outright says that the Cabal healed him when he wakes up., though. In addition to having lost most of his powers. It can't really be known if it was a small sword strike; all we know is that assassins impaled him. The scar still does disappear after Raziel does his thing.

Its just common sense really, your claim is based on illogical events and not backed by anything other than your belief that these sarafan weapons from thousands of years ago are lieing around. If it was from before the flamethrowers and ranged weapons then iit could just have well been long before the vampires evolved/devolved so much.

Actually, it's based off of evidence and canon. I have shown that the weapons used are identical to the Sarafan staffs, and the Dumahim were not killed by either the flamethrowers or crossbows, seeing as they are impaled on the staffs. Your theory is not supported by any evidence, just a guess that they could shoot staffs with a weapon you seem to have made up.

Well your adding the "resistant foes" bit, I have yet to see evidence for this thesis. Its not the same because the whole of my claim is based purely on how the ability works, yours is based on who it affects, Kains dimentional teleport is the same ability regardless whos around. I like how yo post a video of the guy behaving in exactly the way I imagined, he was hoping it would "work", so theres a chance of failure regardless of the target apprently.

It only really has a chance to fail on powerful enemies, who are resistant by default. For anything not like Bowser, it works fine. My argument is actually based on Bowser being resistant, it's you who's trying to say it doesn't work like it says it does. Not sure what your point is, since the card still works.

Well no, my argument is based purely on the ability, yours is based on the target.

No, my argument is based purely on the ability (of Bowser) to resist, you keep bringing up the target for some reason.

Erm no, your examples are awful, Kain simply points out human minds are fragile, therefore logic dicates anything of human resistance or below is fair game. It never states that its a human weakness, only that human minds are fragile...your adding what you want to see. No, I just have to take into account Bowser has no proven resistance more than a human mind, therefore fair game.

No, that is terrible logic. By that, anything below Superman's resistance is vulnerable to kryptonite. Again, by pointing out humans in particular, you cannot claim anything that is not human will be affected. You're ignoring the actual ability, why?

Your making some no limit fallacies, it works on little stars, thats it. No vampires? by your logic he cant use his powers on Vampires. If anything, the fact its a computer along with a tiny machine makes a shock seem even more effective doesnt it really.

No, you seem to be missing a vital part of this. Show me where it's stated that stars are vulnerable? Unless you can do that, the ability is not limited by species, and only by resistance. As it stands, Bowser is actually trapping very powerful spirits in a helpless state, and nothing prevents this from working on Kain. And I don't see how a shock that affects vulnerable human minds will affect Bowser's little robot consciousness.

"resembles" but not necesserily is.

With Bowser's biology? You'd be lucky to know you're looking at. Fact is, Bowser has bone-like structures all over the place, though it's questionable if they're in the right place to form a skeleton. My point in all of this being that Bowser's anatomy is not normal and you can't assume that blood based powers will work on a being with such a screwed up system.

Different weapon then, high frequency waves vs what looks like a small ball of energy or something...

Hmm? The Boomboxers are still blasting sound at you, rather what the definition of a sonic weapon is. Doesn't make it slower.

The script confirms it as a mutated human, further Kain knows what a human is, infact if anything he could probably identify one better than you based on blood, not just appearance but tbh your making an illogical reach here that apprently this mutation was just a coincidence and came from thin air...

Incorrect. I'm claiming Anarcrothe made it in a lab, where did you get this thin air thing from?

Well the sorcerors are the source, but the inside of the tower has other warping reality powers like bending space as Kain points out. The defintion of graft is simply to unite, and Kain points out how; Dark magic. Theres no indication of surgery.

Yes, meaning there were originally two creatures. Dark Eden didn't just make an insect to fuse with a guy, did it? More likely it was made more artificially, likely in a lab, likely by Anarcrothe. As implied by his lab and the dissected corpses of untransformed humans.

Dark Eden is perfect, Kain was completly untouched by something that warps almost all things, you picking at random points does not deny the actual canon.

Or all life, a designation that specifically excludes Kain. Or we can consider the humans inside it and conclude that the process is not instant or isn't as powerful as you want to believe.

The stun spell does not limit targets, only points out what it did effect, the transformation has only affected Mushroom people apprently therefore only they are targets.

Not how it works. The stun spell specifically targets humans as stated in its description, but Bowser's spell does not state a specific target. Therefore it is not as limited as the stun spell in what it can potentially affect.

Originally posted by The Scenario

Well first as I said, its not strength its pressure we are looking at. Second, as shown Raziels strength alone does nothing to Kains top skin layer, we have not even started calculating volume of skin, muscle and bone.

He says he has to specifically change tactics for his opponents, so using basic attacks like a claw slash is not enough, since when its thousands of tons PSI not enough if a human can just poke a spear in? makes no sense in your theory.

Not at all, you need to re-check your info, ones like a pole axe, the others a spear, you cant even imaple with a pole axe tbh. How do you know it can only fire "tiny arrows" or w/e it fires? you dont have a clue, my suggestion is far better supported considering the evidence than "humans who use higher tech weapons used 1000 year old sarafan weapons that they just happened to find".

He cant reach a heart thats not there, Kain lives purely off spirit now. Did not actually work did it because Vorador is alive and kicking in BO2.

The feats are already quite incredible, with its output being able to fill a room almost instantly and blow doors off, not to mension the size of the furnace. You can find smaller furnaces to melt wood and stone.

So this boils down to "I am lazy, the basic numbers help my case anyway so I dont care about the real facts", at the moment the numbers for Kain may be even higher than I first realised.

Of course it is, otherwise how would he even perform the ability? exactly...he would not, the whole thing is scripted. Hes not scripted at all based on evidence yu have not shown, what little you have shown suggests it could be pure badluck it does not work. Its still mechanics.

Well clearly the force of an impact does not just stop on the skin, it spreads so I suggest Kain has damage/weakened inner body tissue. No, thats your theory, Raziel simply stated vampires can regen from flesh deep wounds this does not cover an entire heart which would be incredible regen but not proven. I never said Kain could regen his entire chest cavity and a heart which is impossible by itself.

We dont know what they actually healed, cant assume they somehow removed his scar hes had for years either. If the underworld scene depicts it properly, the sword was in his chest.

Nah, pole axe vs unkown spear. Your whole argument is based on a ridiculous notion that they tossed away high tech weapons and grabbed 1-2k year old weaponry, where the hell they got that I dont know. Your talking nonsense especially when your talking to someone who knows the universe.

Nice claim, back it up. It still works "almost always" 🙂

Thats several assumptions then, that bowser has the ability to resis based off a non canon event from the "targeting" of a catchcard that does not necesserily even happen, and could randomly fail anyway. Your comparing all that to me just claiming a specific scripted power of Kain, not just something relevent to the effects of another targeting spell/ability. If you could find proof in a statement of canon that bowser has this "ability" then you could have a comaprison.

He did not say it was a human weakness, you keep trying to claim this is some sort of kryptonite when its just a spell that shocks the mind.

The scene shows stars are vulnerable, if they were not vulnerable they would not have been effected 😐 so your talking nonsense "again".

😆 yet earlier your happy to argue strength and durability in bowsers favour despite it being based on biological physics. Unless you have evidence to suggest bowser does not follow such an important biological life system such as blood then you cannot claim he has no life fluids.

Well we can see its slower, nothing suggests the weapon is fast, or their reactions (which could be another thing mario is reacting to).

Originally posted by The Scenario

So your claim is it escaped from the lab you claim the alchemist was performing surgery in, walked across the region that is Dark Eden and found its way outside the bubble? Simply to avoid admitting that the outer barrier does what it says it does.

All Kain found was dissected bodies, your adding the rest. Kain points out thats exactly what Dark eden does, "twisting paraodies of life", so far Dark Eden is the only confirmed dark magic source that can warp things as it touches them, your theory on Anacrothe mutating things despite already having a reason is just that, a theory.

The sky, rain, earth and rock is not "life". Or that only the actual perimeter of the dome makes the transformation, tbh the humans themselves are not mensioned in canon, only the "remains" already inside the fortress are.

No, wrong again. The stun spell shocks minds, the description simply noted humans as being its upper power limt .e.g anyone stronger than a human mentally may not be affected. Neither does stun spell, it simply states what it "has" worked on while so does bowsers, mushroom people.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Well first as I said, its not strength its pressure we are looking at. Second, as shown Raziels strength alone does nothing to Kains top skin layer, we have not even started calculating volume of skin, muscle and bone.

All demonstrably damaged by Raziel, what's your point?

He says he has to specifically change tactics for his opponents, so using basic attacks like a claw slash is not enough, since when its thousands of tons PSI not enough if a human can just poke a spear in? makes no sense in your theory.

Since the vampires have regeneration, as stated. It has nothing to do with durability, unless you have actual evidence to this effect.

Not at all, you need to re-check your info, ones like a pole axe, the others a spear, you cant even imaple with a pole axe tbh. How do you know it can only fire "tiny arrows" or w/e it fires? you dont have a clue, my suggestion is far better supported considering the evidence than "humans who use higher tech weapons used 1000 year old sarafan weapons that they just happened to find".

I think you need to take a second look at the pictures, seeing as the two weapons are identical. In fact, you should probably take a look at your crossbow thing again, and notice that it is, in fact, the size of a man's arm. If you want to claim that they're firing 2 meter spikes and staffs out of this, please provide evidence. I see no staff nor spike in that weapon he's holding. Further, please provide evidence that this somehow reaches 9 million tons, assuming of course that you can even prove th

Originally posted by Burning thought
Well first as I said, its not strength its pressure we are looking at. Second, as shown Raziels strength alone does nothing to Kains top skin layer, we have not even started calculating volume of skin, muscle and bone.

All demonstrably damaged by Raziel, what's your point?

He says he has to specifically change tactics for his opponents, so using basic attacks like a claw slash is not enough, since when its thousands of tons PSI not enough if a human can just poke a spear in? makes no sense in your theory.

Since the vampires have regeneration, as stated. It has nothing to do with durability, unless you have actual evidence to this effect.

Not at all, you need to re-check your info, ones like a pole axe, the others a spear, you cant even imaple with a pole axe tbh. How do you know it can only fire "tiny arrows" or w/e it fires? you dont have a clue, my suggestion is far better supported considering the evidence than "humans who use higher tech weapons used 1000 year old sarafan weapons that they just happened to find".

I think you need to take a second look at the pictures, seeing as the two weapons are identical. In fact, you should probably take a look at your crossbow thing again, and notice that it is, in fact, the size of a man's arm. If you want to claim that they're firing 2 meter spikes and staffs out of this, please provide evidence. I see no staff nor spike in that weapon he's holding. Further, please provide evidence that this somehow reaches 9 million tons, assuming of course that you can even prove they used the staff as ranged weapons. Otherwise, you can accept the facts.

He cant reach a heart thats not there, Kain lives purely off spirit now. Did not actually work did it because Vorador is alive and kicking in BO2.

And without his heart Kain can't seem to regenerate, so Bowser won't actually have to remove a non-existent heart. Further, I find it weird how you seem to flip-flop on whether on not Blood Omen 2 exists depending on how it suits you. Didn't you say Blood Omen 2 never happened when I brought up that Kain lost all his magic powers in it? In any case, how did Vorador survive? Give a canon reason for his return or you can't make the claim he survived decapitation.

The feats are already quite incredible, with its output being able to fill a room almost instantly and blow doors off, not to mension the size of the furnace. You can find smaller furnaces to melt wood and stone.

Blowing doors off (note they don't melt) is not a function of the heat, try again. Further, you still have not addressed the fact that furnaces take time. Prove a furnace can melt stone in under a second, or accept that Bowser is still superior.

So this boils down to "I am lazy, the basic numbers help my case anyway so I dont care about the real facts", at the moment the numbers for Kain may be even higher than I first realised.

Close, but no cigar. The real argument is something like, "I am lazy, the basic numbers and facts are all that are really needed." You don't have anything to present anyway, or you would have done so already. I know this because no one is posting in the Game Math thread anymore, thereby derailing your attempts at calculation. Simplicity, as I've told you, is the key.

Of course it is, otherwise how would he even perform the ability? exactly...he would not, the whole thing is scripted. Hes not scripted at all based on evidence yu have not shown, what little you have shown suggests it could be pure badluck it does not work. Its still mechanics.

Well, he never canonically performs the ability. So you can't prove he can. Which is my point, though in actuality it's just your argument as applied to your double standard. It's all mechanics, you're just making pointless distinctions to enforce the gameplay you want. I'm just returning the favor. Bowser is scripted to be immune to a soul steal, and that's really all there is to say on the matter.

Well clearly the force of an impact does not just stop on the skin, it spreads so I suggest Kain has damage/weakened inner body tissue. No, thats your theory, Raziel simply stated vampires can regen from flesh deep wounds this does not cover an entire heart which would be incredible regen but not proven. I never said Kain could regen his entire chest cavity and a heart which is impossible by itself.

You're missing that Kain also failed to regenerate the surface skin, seeing as there's a gaping hole in his chest. So far, the evidence suggest Kain lost the ability to regenerate when he lost his heart.

We dont know what they actually healed, cant assume they somehow removed his scar hes had for years either. If the underworld scene depicts it properly, the sword was in his chest.

We have a statement that they healed him, and he had a sword go through him earlier. With no scar, the only explanation is that the healing removed it. I still have doubts about the underworld scene, given it isn't Kain's physical body.

Nah, pole axe vs unkown spear. Your whole argument is based on a ridiculous notion that they tossed away high tech weapons and grabbed 1-2k year old weaponry, where the hell they got that I dont know. Your talking nonsense especially when your talking to someone who knows the universe.

Nah, known staff vs. identical staff. Your argument is based on assumptions and guesses that disregard the actual evidence. Where is the high tech weaponry? It is not evident in Dumah's fortress, its effects are not evident on the corpses, and the only thing that you've given so far is a purely theoretical siege weapon you seem to have invented yourself. I, on the other hand, have gone through the games much more recently and studied the universe, in addition to the canon cutscenes and statements I have on my side. Your argument does not take the evidence into account, while mine embraces it.

Nice claim, back it up. It still works "almost always" 🙂

Success.

Thats several assumptions then, that bowser has the ability to resis based off a non canon event from the "targeting" of a catchcard that does not necesserily even happen, and could randomly fail anyway. Your comparing all that to me just claiming a specific scripted power of Kain, not just something relevent to the effects of another targeting spell/ability. If you could find proof in a statement of canon that bowser has this "ability" then you could have a comaprison.

It's a valid comparison. You claiming a non canon speed feat is the same as me claiming a non canon resistance feat. Both are scripted to play out a certain way, so there's not much difference.

He did not say it was a human weakness, you keep trying to claim this is some sort of kryptonite when its just a spell that shocks the mind.

Prove it can affect a non-human. Just do that.

The scene shows stars are vulnerable, if they were not vulnerable they would not have been effected 😐 so your talking nonsense "again".

The scene does not state that stars exclusively are vulnerable, though, which is the main difference you are ignoring. Stun singles out humans and nothing else, whereas the Star Rod affects other things with other abilities. Why would trapping something in a card only affect the Star Spirits? Stun has a canon reason it doesn't affect other things, but the Star Rod does not.

😆 yet earlier your happy to argue strength and durability in bowsers favour despite it being based on biological physics. Unless you have evidence to suggest bowser does not follow such an important biological life system such as blood then you cannot claim he has no life fluids.

What? I'm still quite happy to argue that Bowser is stronger and more durable than Kain, as neither of those have to be based on biology. You sound like you're reaching for something, here. The evidence actually does support Bowser lacking blood, and his anatomy is massively screwed up. That does not prevent him from being stronger and tougher than Kain. See, I still have evidence of Bowser lifting and tanking things Kain couldn't, while you don't actually have a way to prove that Bowser has blood. Lucky for you I have already shown the evidence that makes Bowser's anatomy incompatible with Kain's powers.

Well we can see its slower, nothing suggests the weapon is fast, or their reactions (which could be another thing mario is reacting to).

Flat out wrong and ignoring evidence, too. The attack is stated to be sonic in nature, specifically as "pure sound." That more than suggests that the weapon is fast. Game mechanics is all that keeps it slow.

So your claim is it escaped from the lab you claim the alchemist was performing surgery in, walked across the region that is Dark Eden and found its way outside the bubble? Simply to avoid admitting that the outer barrier does what it says it does.

Who said it escaped? Anarcrothe likely just released it or sent it out. Please point to where the barrier says it does this. So far, all you have is a vague, "it twists life." No time frame, no example of humans, and ignores the humans still inside te bubble.

All Kain found was dissected bodies, your adding the rest. Kain points out thats exactly what Dark eden does, "twisting paraodies of life", so far Dark Eden is the only confirmed dark magic source that can warp things as it touches them, your theory on Anacrothe mutating things despite already having a reason is just that, a theory.

Kain found human bodies. Make a note: human bodies, e.i: untransformed by the bubble. In addition to human enemies and humans chained to the wall. These are contradictions you can't just ignore. Based on that, Dark Eden's bubble does not seem to be the source, so Anarcrothe is all that's left.

The sky, rain, earth and rock is not "life". Or that only the actual perimeter of the dome makes the transformation, tbh the humans themselves are not mensioned in canon, only the "remains" already inside the fortress are.

Just another inconsistency and contradiction, then. Of course, there's still nothing to indicate that the field affects humans, or that the effect is instant. The human corpses are unaffected, and you'd be hard pressed to not notice the constant screaming of "please help me, kind sir!" of those still living humans. It all comes together to indicate the Dark Eden isn't as strong as you think it is.

No, wrong again. The stun spell shocks minds, the description simply noted humans as being its upper power limt .e.g anyone stronger than a human mentally may not be affected. Neither does stun spell, it simply states what it "has" worked on while so does bowsers, mushroom people.

Again, prove it affects non-humans. Bowser's doesn't have a stated limit, though, so resistance works.

Originally posted by The Scenario

After wraith blade exposure and a fight, not max power. Further, the current math pressures suggest Kain has star core pressures afterall so I was right, infact hes gone from 9 million tons per square inch to 100+ million durability so I doubt bowsers even going to pierce the first layer of skin.

Whats regen got to do with not being able to rip someone apart with your bare hands? your not making any sense.

Not at all, I think you need to check them and find out one is a pole axe and the other looks like an aerodynamic bolt. Since when has size got to do with what a weapon can launch? I dont have to prove it reaches 9 million tons, my counter argument does not have to prove htat to be correct while your claim is that human strength can.

Again, no evidence to suggest this. BO2 to Elder Kain is like a layer of new memories but they dont replace the old also your claim that he lost all his magic powers was not really based on anything. He was walking about with a head in BO2.....

This furnace reaches full potential and seems to explode as well in a few seconds, proven. Also this furnace stuff is your claim, you go and prove their speed.

This forum has a function called Private messenging and we have some calculations together at the moment, their far higher than even my estimates.

Its a canon ability, I dont have to prove "he can" do a canon ability. You dont really seem to have a clue what your doing so to try and make up for your lack of knowledge you would rather than claim the same alike to "my power does tooo!!" reasoning.

How can he regen surface skin? over what? according to your claim his got a great hole there.

You have no evidence, you grasping at straws e.g. 1-2k year old weapons being available to flamethrower/projectile weapon toting humans. no, yours suffers from being based on poor interpretations, arrogant claims that those interpretations (far more ignorant than my own) are fact and then try and force it on me as if thats going to convince me. Give me some sort of grounds why humans who have access to flamethrowers and projectile weapons dropped their equipment in favour of 2k year old "poleaxes" (not evident either)?

"with more ease", "almost always works". No real evidence again.

Not scripted if a player has to choose to use the card.

I dont have to, otherwise you prove Bowsers powers can affect a Vampire. Its a silly question.

It does not single out anyone, Kain just points out human minds are fragile, I have yet to see anything that suggests bowsers mind is any less fragile, if anything a couple of plumbers pissing about in it proves it is fairly vulnerable. So you think you can ignore your own logic AND claim a no limits fallacy on the star rod just because it does not specifically say their "fragile" or "vulnerable" despite it showing they are vulnerable since it works on them, your logic is all over the place. Stun has no canon reason, infact in canon its a magical shock to the brain, thats prove nto work on beings with at least human resistance. Why oh why would a shock suddenly not work on anyone else? no reaosn at all.

Well in a way they do, if he does not have propper bones, muscles etc then you cannot gauge his mass, weight, forces he can control/use the same way we do on a biological entity. 😆 youve shown an unclear image and then said yourself (the game did not) that no blood was evident when we dont even know what blood looks like at Marios micro level. Also you dont have that evidence, if anything Kains proven he can tank things beyond anything Bowser has ever done, not sure what you think your evidence is? a country sized ball of lava exploding? pff....

Lasers have "light" as part of their nature but unlike real lasers, fictonal ones can be extremely slow, you just pulling up words to try and disregard what we actually see is lulzy.

Originally posted by The Scenario

"likely" show me this happening or evidence to suggest it because the Alchemist just having fleshy tissue in his lab does not quite cut the whole story of it traveling across Dark Eden outside the bubble. The mutant is an example and twisting life kinda covers it too.

Well their inside the castle, they should not be transformed. Theres no canon that there are humans there tbh, their just things a player percieves, thats like you claiming it did not change the "floating tarot cards" either.

😆 inconsistency, its canon that the dome affects all these things. I do because a mutated human created by magic is evident just outside the dome that Kain points out warps everything that it touches, as it touches it. Well thats what the player sees, they also see a lot of gameplay mechanics and items but Kain does not mension any of this in canon, the only thing he does mension is human remains inside the fortress.

😆 does not have a "stated" limit, neither do most of Kains powers, maybe ill just claim they have no limits....oh my gosh, a no limit fallacy!