Originally posted by Lord Lucien
AotC Anakin is portrayed as faster and more skilled, end of story.
Faster?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frCIQfpMOyo
Go to 1:15
And thats ESB Luke.
Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Anakin also guided himself with the Force while falling hundreds, maybe thousands of feet,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjPUVzX-GDU
Again thats ESB Luke (who had just been battered and had his hand chopped off as well!)
Originally posted by Nephthys
Well its certainly possible, maybe even probable. Though I would question why he grinds to a halt later in the pipe with no air ruffling his clothes.
It looks and sounds like the "suction' stops.
When I was a kid, I always imagined that those were "trash" collection tubes that "sucked" in the falling trash and "squirted" it out to the planet. Then the planet's hot core (I imagined that it was a planet like Jupiter: no surface) or the speed would cause the trash to burn up. Making it the perfect trash disposal system.
Yes, as a kid, I daydreamed about proper waste management in futuristic stories.
I just took for granted that everyone assumed the same. It's actually pretty neat to see how people interpret the same stuff I saw in a different way. It speaks to the awesomeness of the films. hmm
Originally posted by Nephthys
Don't point RJ at this btw, you just know he'd wank the shit out of it. The current thread is just embarrasing.
I definitely will not. No matter the side he chooses (even if he's right), he recycles the same arguments and it gets old.
Originally posted by ares834
So Luke didn't give "one of the greatest swordsmen EVER a decent run"... I seem to recall him defeating Vader.
Uhm... NOPE! Vader isn't one of the greatest swordsmen ever. Post-Mustafar Vader falls a little short of Dooku in sabers.
And in reference to another post, concerning Luke supposedly guiding himself, this is from the script;
A calm comes over Luke, and he makes a decision. In the next instant
he steps off the gantry platform into space. The Dark Lord looks over
the platform and sees Luke falling far below. The wind begins to blow
at Vader's cape and the torrent finally forces him back, away from the
edge. The wind soon fades and the wounded Jedi begins to drop fast,
unable to grab onto anything to break his fall.
Suddenly Luke is sucked into an exhaust pipe in the side of the shaft.
When Vader sees this, he turns and hurries off the platform.
Yeah, not quite the same. Once again, Luke, while talented (especially for such limited training) has done nothing to make me think he is AotC Anakin's superior in either Force or lighsaber aptitude.
Originally posted by SlightlyFlaccid
No, because the idea of "falling a little short" of Count Dooku in swordsmanship means one doesn't rank among the greatest swordsmen ever is a little perplexing.
Define "greatest ever" requirements and include the number of swordsmen that can be on that list. For example, "strikes a second, strength, the list can only be 10 long".
Once that is defined, then we can start making claims.
Anakin, pre-suit, may very well be among the top 20 duelist of all Star Wars history.
The top two are easy choices, but what about after that?
It's JT's reasoning (which I suspect was facetious in nature) that I disagree with. Dooku's feats and accolades lend significant credibility to the claimidea that he ranks among the saga's greatest and most skilled duelists.
Post-ROTS Darth Vader may or may not be included among that number, but the idea that he doesn't strictly because he "falls a little short" of someone like Dooku isn't really tenable. After all, Agen Kolar was noted to be among the greatest swordsmen ever produced in the Jedi order, but was manhandled by Palpatine.
Okay, a couple of things to add to the convo, and a couple of things to expound on. First, Dooku is revered as one of, if not the greatest duelist in the Rise of the Empire era, you can look that up on many different sites. His knowledge of Makashi is unrivaled...even yoda said so.
Second, why is everyone writing off post-suit Vader? His ability faltered at first because of the learning curve, but after he learned how to move in the suit, he changed his saber form, and from there only became stronger.
Thirdly, though Anakin does have more experience/training then Luke at this point, Luke is known for being able to learn a saber form just by watching it performed, and by RotJ, he is a Master of 2 forms of lightsaber combat. So on that note, Luke takes sabers.
On force abilities, i think it would be close, but again, Luke takes it. He may not have the experience, but I really think his calmer nature will win out over the young anakins, brash, semi-self-destructive power.
Originally posted by DARTH POWERForce Speed. Padawan Obi-Wan pulled a similar job in TPM. As neither Luke nor Anakin have ever swung their saber as fast as Force Speed propels their body, it means nothing. I watched the rest of that duel (for the bazillionth time) and I saw no movement of Luke's that impressed me as much as the speed and comparartive grace that Anakin possessed against Dooku.
Faster?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frCIQfpMOyo
Go to 1:15
And thats ESB Luke.
Course we have computers and digitally timed choreography to thank for that, but I think that was my point from the beginning.
Originally posted by SlightlyFlaccid
No, because the idea of "falling a little short" of Count Dooku in swordsmanship means one doesn't rank among the greatest swordsmen ever is a little perplexing.
Yeah softy, the "little short" comment was sarcastic. Truth be told, Dooku would saber rape post-Mustafar Vader repeatedly while making him cry uncle. It's really no contest. And as I've stated previously, nothing RotJ Luke has done on screen has lead me to believe that he is > than AotC Anakin as far as Force ability, not to mention lightsaber skill.
Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Yeah softy, the "little short" comment was sarcastic. Truth be told, Dooku would saber rape post-Mustafar Vader repeatedly while making him cry uncle. It's really no contest.
😮
Lets see a little bit about Vader's saber skills shall we.
Shortly after RotS he toys with two skilled Jedi Knights:
Forte and Kulka were skilled duelists , but Vader was not only faster than Starstone remembered him being on Murkhana against Master Chatak, but also more agile. He employed his awesome power to put a quick end to the fancy twirling of his opponents, who fell back against the hammering blows of Vader's bloodshine blade.Time and again the two Jedi Knights attempted to alter their style, but Vader had an answer for every lunge, parry, and riposte. His style borrowed elements from all techniques of combat, even from the highest, most dangerous levels , and his moves were crisp and unpredictable. In addition, his remarkable foresight allowed him to anticipate Forte's and Kulka's strategies and maneuvers, his blade always one step ahead of theirs, notwithstanding the two-handed grip he employed. Toying with the Jedi, he grazed Forte on the left shoulder, then on the right thigh; Kulka, he pierced lightly in the abdomen, then shaved away the flesh on the right side of the Ho'Din's face.
Effortlessly defeats Aurra Sing:
She came straight at him. It took only a few steps. A little of the Force perfectly in tune with bands of lithe muscle. In a second one out-thrust fist would be in his face and she would see what that composite armor was made of. She knew of no one who had ever seen what lay beneath that mask. She intended to be the first. Her fist never made contact. Raising his right hand and bringing it around in a swift arc, Vader blocked the blow and sent the body behind it flying across the room. As she flew, a startled but still wholly self-aware Sing tucked and rolled. She hit the opposite wall hard, bounced off, landed on her feet, and immediately came at him again."The reflexes of an animal," Vader murmured. His lightsaber hung at his waist. He ignored it, his fingers going nowhere near the weapon. "That's what the Empire needs: a few more well-trained, domesticated animals."
"Domesticated? I'll show you who's domesticated!" She leapt high, kicking out, and in midthrust somehow bent sideways to kick harder with her other leg. In a movement preternaturally fast, but which somehow looked almost languid, Vader ducked, reached up, and with one gloved hand lightly tapped her in the middle of her back. A serious thrust catching her in that position could have broken her spine. The Dark Lord's touch was more of a caress. He was letting her know what he could have done. Landing in a crouch, a feral expression on her face, she raced at him again, low this time. Her speed was startling: a droid would have been hard-pressed to match her acceleration.
From his duel with Starkiller on the Dath Star. Note that Vader's attack knocks Starkiller back and this guys is physically able to throw Tie Fighters.
He knew the intimacies of his refined version of Djem So , a fighting style that incorporated elements of Ataru, Soresu, and Makashi. He had fended off many wild, slashing attacks that would have overwhelmed even an extraordinary Jedi Knight . He had borne the brunt of many psychological battles. He thought he was ready-and so the sheer severity of the opening blow took him by surprise.
A simple double stroke, up and then down, it contained enough power to jar his wrists and shoulders and very nearly disarm him completely. The collision of their lightsabers was blinding. He staggered backward and found himself at the center of a telekinetic storm.
More from TFU:
Darth Vader fought brilliantly, never employing anything less than a killing stroke. His intention was lethal. All he needed was one slip, one tiny gap in his opponent's defenses.
From the perpestive of Ferus Olin:
It happened before he could get out another word. Faster than an eyeblink. Faster than he'd seen anyone move, anyone except Yoda. The lightsaber hadn't been there, and then it was, and the lightsaber was a blur. Vader moved without seeming to move, and the lightsaber sliced into Roan, straight into his chest. Straight into his heart
And there are many more examples of Vader's amazing skill and speed.
So no. Dooku may be able to defeat Vader in a saber duel (i'd argue Vader would win), but the idea that Dooku would trounce him is laughable.