Originally posted by NephthysThat's right, RotJ wasn't written by Lucas, so it'd be C-canon wouldn't it?
Anyway, fantastic post ares. Vader has long been underestimated in sabers. He's definately notthe slow-ass ***** the movies made him out to be. The limitations of technology and special effects are to blame imo. The EU offers a vastly different perspective.The ROTJ novel is G-canon? 😮
I don't think so. Presumably Luke wasn't that far behind. I mean it only took him a few years to be near Palpatines level. And Luke tapping into the darkside would likely gain a huge increase. A Skywalker unleashing his full potential? Dooku lost both hands to that, Vader was lucky to get away with only one.
The following is merely my opinion, but given that my opinion is hardly ever wrong, you may seek solace in it,
People really really need to take into account the unavoidable OOU explanation that '70s and '80s choreography just ain't up to snuff with the shit that can be produced in the modern era. I realize George downplayed the collective fighting skills Vader, Old!bi-Wan, and Luke as "cyborgs, old men, and half-trained boys," but I'm not sure we're supposed to take that quite literally, given the presence of Grievous (cyborg), Dooku, Sidious & Yoda (old men), and Padme (half-trained boygirl).
What George was implying was that Jedi training in the prequels dwarfs what we see elsewhere, particularly in the movies. Vader-in-the-suit is 80% of Palpatine per Lucas, but that ain't even close to what Vader's supposed to be and, in that regard, he is a tremendous letdown. Obi-Wan's been stuck for over a third of his life on a desert world with his raison d'être simply being to watch over Luke, so naturally his skills would be rusty. And Luke, despite possessing prodigious natural talent, does not have the skill to keep up with the greats at this point.
But that's it. No moar, no less.
Originally posted by SlightlyFlaccid
The following is merely my opinion, but given that my opinion is hardly ever wrong, you may seek solace in it,People really really need to take into account the unavoidable OOU explanation that '70s and '80s choreography just ain't up to snuff with the shit that can be produced in the modern era. I realize George downplayed the collective fighting skills Vader, Old!bi-Wan, and Luke as "cyborgs, old men, and half-trained boys," but I'm not sure we're supposed to take that quite literally, given the presence of Grievous (cyborg), Dooku, Sidious & Yoda (old men), and Padme (half-trained
boygirl).What George was implying was that Jedi training in the prequels dwarfs what we see elsewhere, particularly in the movies. Vader-in-the-suit is 80% of Palpatine per Lucas, but that ain't even close to what Vader's supposed to be and, in that regard, he is a tremendous letdown. Obi-Wan's been stuck for over a third of his life on a desert world with his raison d'être simply being to watch over Luke, so naturally his skills would be rusty. And Luke, despite possessing prodigious natural talent, does [b]not
have the skill to keep up with the greats at this point.But that's it. No moar, no less. [/B]
I somewhat agree, but not completely.
I see a difference between Vader cyborg and Grievous cyborg. I also see a difference between Old man Obi Wan and old man Dooku.
I don't like how out of "ability" and "character" the EU makes Vader. I prefer the clunky "shell of his former self" Vader that we see in the movies. I see the EU Vader as a different being.
Obviously, using the correct level of canon, Vader gets destroyed by his Pre-suit self and with ease.
At the end of it all...I still pretty much agree with everything you posted. It's more Lucas trying to justify that actual need to have to improve some of the things...like dueling...from the OT. It's a decent justification unless you think about it with any level of intelligence.
As for the thread, Luke gets owned and it's not just by a small margin. I think we need a Luke about 2-3 years ABY.
Originally posted by dadudemonBingo.
At the end of it all...I still pretty much agree with everything you posted. It's more Lucas trying to justify that actual need to have to improve some of the things...like dueling...from the OT. It's a decent justification unless you think about it with any level of intelligence.
Still bothersome though.
Originally posted by Nephthys
My interpretation (and I'm sure, others as well) was that Vader was winning and going easy on him during the majority of the fight, but when Luke got angry Vader just couldn't keep up.
Yeah, I don't think Vader was going all out on Luke either. Vader truely loved his son and did not want to kill him. He broke free from the dark side's hold and turned on his master out of love for Luke, and it's not like he started to love Luke and feel conflicted the minute Palpatine started torturing Luke. No, Vader was conflicted thoughout the entire movie. The movie's main focus was Vader's conflict between his compassion for his son and his identity as a dark lord of the sith. The New Essential Guide to Characters says that Palpatine urged Luke to kill a dying Vader, which would most likely be implying that his identity as a sith lord was fading by allowing his love for Luke to conflict him, and thus not finding it in his heart to actually harm Luke.
But merely holding back does not mean Vader allowed Luke to overwhelm him like that. No, that would still require lot of skill on Luke's part. And regardless of how sloppy Luke may have looked onscreen, I believe George Lucas intended for Luke to be a skilled duelist by the time of ROTJ.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Force Speed. Padawan Obi-Wan pulled a similar job in TPM.
I forgot about that 😮
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Course we have computers and digitally timed choreography to thank for that, but I think that was my point from the beginning.
Its just that seeing ROTJ time and time again, it just seems to me Luke was legitimately beating Vader.
Even before he entered his rage he was still forcing Vader back and kicked him onto his rear. So even if Vader wasn't going for the kill, he didn't have to hold back THAT much where he's getting kicked around. And in ESB he showed he's willing to batter Luke at least.
Plus Yoda and Obi-wan both telling Luke to face Vader now.
And he was declared a Jedi Knight. So how can a Knight be a skilless novice?? It makes no sense.
Thats why I have a tough time putting ROTJ Luke below AOTC Anakin, who got tooled by Count Dooku even with his use of 2 Sabers.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
...I have a tough time putting ROTJ Luke below AOTC Anakin, who got tooled by Count Dooku even with his use of 2 Sabers.
Because he's Count ***king Dooku!! One of the ten (maybe even 5) greatest duelists in galactic history (Jedi, Sith, or otherwise).
Post-Mustafar Vader might be a beast, but in sabers, he's nowhere in Dooku's league.
Well I disagree, and I also disagree that Luke loses. AOTC Anakin hasn't done jack all in sabers that makes me think he's anything but average at best. He did not give Dooku a good fight at all. Years after the fight the good Count regarded him as a complete joke in regards to his lightsaber skills.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Its just that seeing ROTJ time and time again, it just seems to me Luke was legitimately beating Vader.Even before he entered his rage he was still forcing Vader back and kicked him onto his rear. So even if Vader wasn't going for the kill, he didn't have to hold back THAT much where he's getting kicked around. And in ESB he showed he's willing to batter Luke at least.
Plus Yoda and Obi-wan both telling Luke to face Vader now.
And he was declared a Jedi Knight. So how can a Knight be a skilless novice?? It makes no sense.
Thats why I have a tough time putting ROTJ Luke below AOTC Anakin, who got tooled by Count Dooku even with his use of 2 Sabers.
👆