Originally posted by DARTH POWERExactly! Luke genuinely beating Vader in RotJ is a-OK with me. I'm fine with that.
Its just that seeing ROTJ time and time again, it just seems to me Luke was legitimately beating Vader.Even before he entered his rage he was still forcing Vader back and kicked him onto his rear. So even if Vader wasn't going for the kill, he didn't have to hold back THAT much where he's getting kicked around. And in ESB he showed he's willing to batter Luke at least.
Plus Yoda and Obi-wan both telling Luke to face Vader now.
And he was declared a Jedi Knight. So how can a Knight be a skilless novice?? It makes no sense.
Thats why I have a tough time putting ROTJ Luke below AOTC Anakin, who got tooled by Count Dooku even with his use of 2 Sabers.
What I'm not fine with is Vader's standing within the EU as an extremely powerful and fast Force-user and duelist. I don't wanna risk being called a purist, but the speed they move at in the OT is laughable compared to the duels of the PT. They're hurling rocks and doing cool jumps, chucking pods, Lightning... and they swing those swords very, very fast. The original movies don't. Fact. I've always preferred the stance that Vader and Ben and Luke were just less powerful and skilled because of injuries, age, and inexperience, respectively. That fit so well.
Until the EU came along and made Vader in to the powerhouse we all see him as. Advances in movie-making technology aside, Vader's godly powers just flat disappear during the OT. And as someone who dislikes speculating, I don't wanna start doing it whenever "But you gotta consider the lack of computer technology in the 80's" is brought up. The harmonization process between the EU and the OT (hell, even the PT) can't be decisively completed.
Chewbacca lives on Endor, so it doesn't make sense.
I've never really have a problem with it. First off I never viewed the movie duels as happening at "real" time. I mean look at the Windu/Sidious duel. It's perhaps the second slowest duel in the movies yet it's between the two of the most powerful masters of the force. Secondly, I don't think we as watchers can objectively decide which duelists are better than others simply by watching them. After all, Darth Maul comes off as the most impressive looking duelist in the movies (at least to me) yet many of the characters should be able to defeat him.
What I have always had a hard time matching with the movies is characterization. But that’s an entirely different can of worms.
I'm not really saying that only visuals can be used. I'm saying that the huge leap forward in skill and speed between the OT and everything else is just way too noticeable. The movies are supposed to be the highest form of in-universe canon, but half of them depict rather slow and ponderous movements. If we tried doing that whole "Imagine what it would look like if the technology was available", we'd be sitting around endlessly debating each other's speculations.
The RotJ novel may provide more detail and background, but its accompanying (higher canon) movie flat out shows cumbersome fighting. The very same, equally-canon PT media, show us graceful, elegant, flashy, and fast fighting. Before the EU turned Vader and OT Luke in to Force titans, their lack of speed and grace made sense. But now, thanks to the EU, we have to speculate and pretend "what they should look like." I don't like doing that, since every one of us here has used the "canon>your interpretation/opinion/imagination" argument before.
Originally posted by ares834
I've never really have a problem with it. First off I never viewed the movie duels as happening at "real" time. I mean look at the Windu/Sidious duel.
Exactly. Luke vs Vader looked better to me than Mace vs Sidious.
We cant just judge fights by how they look, otherwise Maul > Sidious and Windu.
Originally posted by Apollo Cloudus
I personally wouldn't consider Count Dooku quite top ten material. Characters that would beat him out of his spot, in my opinion:Exar Kun
Ulic Qel-Droma
Kas'im
Kaox Krul
Darth Bane
Lord Hoth
Raskta Lsu
Yoda
Darth Sidious
Mace Windu
Anakin Skywalker
Luke Skywalker
Darth Caedus
Kyle Katarn
Lesse, Hoth, Kaox Krul, Ulic, and Katarn I'd all drop from that list.
If you're going to include Krul, Crain Maru should be included too, mutual-killing after an epic battle as they did, but neither have much in the way of feats other than their fight with each other, and others were noted as the best duelists of the Brotherhood.
Ulic and Katarn are both very good, but surpassed by others in their eras. I think saying they're better than Dooku is a bit of a leap, badass as they are.
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Personally I think it also gets to a point where it's hard to make a "top X" number because, between all eras, the very best tend not to be too far apart, so you have more than 10 people in these rough levels where you could easily argue one or another and not be wrong either way.
Originally posted by lord starkiller
wait wait wait who the fvck is "Zonakin"
"Zonakin" is the local shorthand for Anakin Skywalker at roughly the level of competence he displayed upon the Invisible Hand in the novelization of The Revenge of the Sith. Skywalker's wildly fluctuating demonstrated ability in that source has prompted additional clarification when he is used in fights. For example, his rage brought down a factory in Labyrinth of Evil but then he is incapable of Force Pushing Kenobi on Mustafar.
And I strongly disagree with the motion to remove Ulic from his position above Dooku.
He probably has similar Force standings. Half a year later he was doing some pretty impressive stuff in Shadows of Mindor. Though I'm very hesitant to say he has the same saber prowess as even AotC Anakin, or TPM Kenobi. He received little to no formal lightsaber training and had to learn from scratch on the job. Kenobi and Anakin each had several decades (decade and 1/2 for Anakin) in saber training.
Still, to do what he did against Vader was impressive. Luke seems to have an extreme talent for picking up on skills.
While there's little formal training, I imagine he must've run the moves Vader did at Bespin through his mind thousands and thousands of times while training between ESB and RotJ, with the force probably helping guide him to the right moves.
He did. He was very adept at copying Vader's styles and modifying them for his own purposes. Probably what made him such a saber god so soon in to career. But not circa RotJ. He may have legitimately overwhelmed Vader, but Obi-Wan's, and certainly Anakin's on-screen saber stunts were far more impressive, in speed, precision, and overall technique. I don't see Luke analyzing and formulating much of an ad hoc defense against any PT opponents.
Originally posted by Korto Vos
If you ignore all other evidence, and see the PT and OT are being parallels, then ESB Luke would roughly translate to AOTC Anakin. And ROTJ would roughly translate to ROTS Anakin (though not in the "zone"😉.
Whoa whoa, no way.
ESB Luke could barely TK his lightsaber to himself, whereas AotC Anakin solo'd a tuskan village, half of a droid army, and while not scoring any remote victory, put up a heck of a fight against Dooku (And by that I mean he lasted more than five seconds). Luke couldn't use the Force to pull his zipper up until at least RotJ, and even then he's still barely a padawan.