So...your entire argument is based on the fact that the top martial artist in DC must be equal to the top martial artist in Marvel? 😕
What if all of those DC characters you mentioned were better than Cap? (I'm not saying they are...)
You say that if Batman = Cap, then Batman must be > Shang-Chi, etc. then blah blah other relatonships must be true, which is absurd. What's absurd here is your assbackwards logic.
Originally posted by srankmissingninhow does how they rank in their own universes directly relate to how they would rank in others? If cap could be considered top in mu that means hed have to be over every dcu character?
My reasoning on this subject is well documented on KMC. I'm sure a quick search would award you with many long posts analyzing the skill hierarchies in Marvel and DC and where they intersect.Captain America is considered by his Marvel peers (and himself, but you can decide how much weight you put on Steve saying he is the greatest fighter who ever lived) to be one of the, if not the, forerunners for the coveted top spot on the "most skilled street" list. Batman is not a contender for the top DC spot and frankly he is lucky to crack the top five. There is evidence, anecdotal and otherwise, that Captain America is more skilled then Iron Fist and Shang-Chi. You might not agree with that evidence, and that is certainly your prerogative, but it exists. Is there any evidence that Batman is more skilled than Dragon, Bronze Tiger or Shiva? No, and not only is there no evidence that he is more skilled, but there are several narrative statements from Batman's friends / colleges that those characters (and several others) are more skilled then Bruce. Both of these universe have established - if flimsily so - skill hierarchies, we know where Captain America's peers place him, and we know where Batman's peers place him. On a top 10 list Captain America is vying for the top spot, while Batman is hovering around the middle. Captain America is just a bigger fish in a bigger pond.
If we decided arbitrarily that Batman = Captain America, then because of the established hierarchy that also concludes that Batman > Shang-Chi, Batman > Iron Fist, and Bronze Tiger >> Shang-Chi, and Dragon >> Iron Fist, which is absurd. Chi-amp aside, Shang-Chi, and Danny are all more or less analogous of Richard Dragon, and Bronze Tiger. Captain America is established in his universe as being more skilled then his uber kung-fu fighters, Batman is established as being less skilled then his. Of course, we aren't talking about an insurmountable skill gab here, all the characters on a top ten list of Martial Artists are within spiting distance of one another. Batman could still conceivably take Dragon or Tiger for close to the majority in a fight, but there is still a measurable - however slight it may be - difference between him and his peers. Batman and Daredevil are an intersection point on Marvel / DC skill comparison chart, Captain America is more skilled then either of them.
KK is not part of DC proper. He is an alternate history character that exists in a continuity separate from normal DC U. It has been said that it is the "true future" but there is like four different Legion continuities so I doubt that.
Originally posted by Cogito
So...your entire argument is based on the fact that the top martial artist in DC must be equal to the top martial artist in Marvel? 😕What if all of those DC characters you mentioned were better than Cap? (I'm not saying they are...)
You say that if Batman = Cap, then Batman must be > Shang-Chi, etc. then blah blah other relatonships must be true, which is absurd. What's absurd here is your assbackwards logic.
No, my argument is specifically that the top tier martial artists in DC aren't the equal of the top martial artist in Marvel. We know Batman and Captain America's in house skill placement relative to characters like Dragon and Shang-Chi, and those characters happen to be easily drawn parallels between the two universes.
If Batman is more or as skilled as Captain America, then he is also more skilled then everyone Marvel has established as being less skilled then Steve. The reality is that several of the characters Captain America is established as being more skilled then are more or less the equal of characters Batman has been established as being less skilled then.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
No, my argument is specifically that the top tier martial artists in DC aren't the equal of the top martial artist in Marvel.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
We know Batman and Captain America's in house skill placement relative to characters like Dragon and Shang-Chi, and those characters happen to be easily drawn parallels between the two universes.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
If Batman is more or as skilled as Captain America, then he is also more skilled then everyone Marvel has established as being less skilled then Steve.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
The reality is that several of the characters Captain America is established as being more skilled then are more or less the equal of characters Batman has been established as being less skilled then.
Originally posted by namorsubby
how does how they rank in their own universes directly relate to how they would rank in others? If cap could be considered top in mu that means hed have to be over every dcu character?
Largely I'm only concerning myself with the mainstream streets here to avoid a convoluted and over complicated hierarchy. There are earth bound heroes in both Marvel and DC who are more skilled then Captain America, they just aren't well known or are suitably obscure. There are the archetypal "Old Master" characters like Po, Sensei, O-Sense, Stick, I-Ching, Izo. Jin Si for example is a DC character more skilled then anyone on Marvel earth. White Crane. Black Dragon. Four different Karate Kids. A whole host of cosmic MAs. There are also characters like Tommy Jagger and Drakon who have put some effortless beat downs on top tier fights in DC, who I believe are contenders for the top DC spots, but lack enough feats for many people to support their placement. What Captain America is, is more skilled then any of the main stream status quo martial artist in DC (Batman, Canary, Cass, Shiva, Dragon, Tiger, Connor).
Originally posted by Prep-Man
Which MU's MA's are above DC's? And how do they have more street levelers? Did you count them all? How many does MU have, compared to DC's number?
Cap, Electra and Wolverine.
How do they not have more street levelers? That should be blatantly obvious to a causal observer Prep-Man. The merger of the Wildstorm characters into the new continuity will serve to fill the gabs that DC's street was lacking prior to the reboot, and the inclusion of those characters - if treated right - will balance or tip the scale of back towards DC, but as it stands right now Marvel has a larger, more diverse and more active street level then DC does. I mean, hell, Shang-Chi has more appearances under his belt then Shiva, Richard Dragon and Bronze Tiger combined. DC street level is pretty much Batman, Nightwing and Tim, and then some Green Arrow for good measure. No Marvel street has as many appearances as Batman, but what they have instead is a much larger group of streets pushing 1000-2000 appearances then DC.
Originally posted by srankmissingninyoure not answering my question. Why is he to be considered better than those dc mas? Even if he is possibly the top in the mu(not that im sayin he is). I dont see the logic behind that reasoning. I honestly think you just want cap to be better.
Largely I'm only concerning myself with the mainstream streets here to avoid a convoluted and over complicated hierarchy. There are earth bound heroes in both Marvel and DC who are more skilled then Captain America, they just aren't well known or are suitably obscure. There are the archetypal "Old Master" characters like Po, Sensei, O-Sense, Stick, I-Ching, Izo. Jin Si for example is a DC character more skilled then anyone on Marvel earth. White Crane. Black Dragon. Four different Karate Kids. A whole host of cosmic MAs. There are also characters like Tommy Jagger and Drakon who have put some effortless beat downs on top tier fights in DC, who I believe are contenders for the top DC spots, but lack enough feats for many people to support their placement. What Captain America is, is more skilled then any of the main stream status quo martial artist in DC (Batman, Canary, Cass, Shiva, Dragon, Tiger, Connor).
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Cap, Electra and Wolverine.How do they not have more street levelers? That should be blatantly obvious to a causal observer Prep-Man. The merger of the Wildstorm characters into the new continuity will serve to fill the gabs that DC's street was lacking prior to the reboot, and the inclusion of those characters - if treated right - will balance or tip the scale of back towards DC, but as it stands right now Marvel has a larger, more diverse and more active street level then DC does. I mean, hell, Shang-Chi has more appearances under his belt then Shiva, Richard Dragon and Bronze Tiger combined. DC street level is pretty much Batman, Nightwing and Tim, and then some Green Arrow for good measure. No Marvel street has as many appearances as Batman, but what they have instead is a much larger group of streets pushing 1000-2000 appearances then DC.
I'm talking about DC history as a whole. Not just appearances, but actual numbers in characters. I've been matching street for street a long time. And Marvel's isn't far superior or numerical. Just what I see.
Originally posted by namorsubby
youre not answering my question. Why is he to be considered better than those dc mas? Even if he is possibly the top in the mu(not that im sayin he is). I dont see the logic behind that reasoning. I honestly think you just want cap to be better.
Because Shang-Chi and Danny are the equal in skill of any DC street, ergo any character established as being more skilled is logically also more skilled then any DC character.
Originally posted by srankmissingninwhy srank? Why are they? Please stop just stating things as facts with nothing on panel to verify. What could you possibly SHOW anyone to support these beliefs?
Because Shang-Chi and Danny are the equal in skill of any DC street, ergo any character established as being more skilled is logically also more skilled then any DC character.