Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
Honest question: Are you opposed to the idea of anyone outwitting or manipulating him?This probably could clear the air. And if I recall correctly, KotOR and KotOR II tried to frame the scenario as though Revan never fell.
I know you didn't ask me but personally its how it was done that irritated me. Its the basic Worf Effect. Revan was used to make the Emperor look uber by being wtfpwned by him, so ooooobviously this Emperor guy must be hot stuff. It feels cheap and dumb that a man heralded as a transcendent genius should be outsmarted by a character we know nothing about. It would be like if I wrote a fan fic where this new guy appears and outsmarts Thrawn and makes him his *****. If the Emperor had actually been established as an intelligent badass then I wouldn't have a problem with it. I wouldn't dislike Palpatine, Thrawn or any of the other Smart Guys outsmarting him.
Though the game hasn't even been released yet so meh, we'll see. (Also I'm really not that cut up about it)
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Thank you.Also, looking for conclusive proof of mastery of all of Sadow's works, as was put forth by LS. This merely proves that he was familiar with the works and had access to some.
Palpatine mastered the Telos Holocron. In other words, he had access to all the requisite knowledge therein. In essence, that means he had Naga Sadow's gatekeeper (Essentially Sadow himself) as an open book, and incorporated his teachings into his own volumes. And he comments flat out Sadow is 'too generous' with his knowledge. He comments on guarding the 'bulk' of Sadow's teachings as well. Janus, no matter how you slice it, this proves he had a great knowledge of them.
Also, Palpatine had Bane's holocron as well. Bane took all the knowledge Andeddu, Belia Darzu, Freedon Nadd and Revan had before his death.
Is Palpatine's knowledge base still being downplayed? I mean, the day a relatively unimportant in the grand scheme of things no account like Zannah is considered superior to Palpatine in anything possessing the word 'Sith' in it, one has seriously misread the mythos.
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
So just as I thought, there's no proof he's mastered all of Sadow's teachings, or that he had any access to Adas' teachings. Looks like I'm giving the sith sorcery points to the sexy darth zannah.
What part of 'it's said flat out he mastered the Telos Holocron which contained all of Sadow's teachings' do you not understand?
Also, Evil Never Dies: The Sith Dynasties states Adas's Holocron was taken by the Mecrosa order and fell again into Sith hands during the Clone Wars. Palpatine was the one behind the Mecrosa order, and the only Sith there.
Originally posted by LightsnakeSince when does having a holocron mean that you mastered it LS? Also, we don't know how much of Sadow's teachings were in there but I can only assume learning from Sadow himself had more benefits than learning from a holocron. Nobody is claiming he didn't have a lot of Sadow's knowledge but your initial post claimed that he mastered all of Sadow's teachings. You need to be more consistent in your posts and not backtrack.
Palpatine mastered the Telos Holocron. In other words, he had access to all the requisite knowledge therein. In essence, that means he had Naga Sadow's gatekeeper (Essentially Sadow himself) as an open book, and incorporated his teachings into his own volumes. And he comments flat out Sadow is 'too generous' with his knowledge. He comments on guarding the 'bulk' of Sadow's teachings as well. Janus, no matter how you slice it, this proves he had a great knowledge of them.
Also, Palpatine had Bane's holocron as well. Bane took all the knowledge Andeddu, Belia Darzu, Freedon Nadd and Revan had before his death.Based on what exactly? This is reaching, LS. Because Bane learned from others, it means he took all of their combined knowledge and put it into his holocron? No LS, that begs for proof.
Is Palpatine's knowledge base still being downplayed? I mean, the day a relatively unimportant in the grand scheme of things no account like Zannah is considered superior to Palpatine in anything possessing the word 'Sith' in it, one has seriously misread the mythos. [/B]Strawman. Nobody is arguing Palpatine's knowledge base so please don't act like we are. We are arguing Zannah's superiority in esoteric sith sorcery which available evidence currently supports. And your last sentence has "illogical bias" written all over it.
What part of "prove it" do you not understand?
Also, Evil Never Dies: The Sith Dynasties states Adas's Holocron was taken by the Mecrosa order and fell again into Sith hands during the Clone Wars. Palpatine was the one behind the Mecrosa order, and the only Sith there.
He never mentioned the teachings of many people until it came up. Did freedon Nadd ever mention them, either? Naga Sadow perhaps?
People working for Palpatine stole the Holocron and handed it back into 'Sith Hands'. Are you seriously going to make this argument?
And we have it said, AGAIN, that Palpatine mastered the Telos Holocron (by virtue that he's accepted as its gatekeeper), he comments on incorporating Sadow's knowledge, comments Sadow shared all with Nadd and Kun, and was too generous (implying what precisely), and that he'll guard 'the bulk' of it, indicating he's sharing a little and keeping the rest.
I have no patience for this denial.
Originally posted by LightsnakeYet Nadd canonically had Adas' holocron. No proof Sadow did.
He never mentioned the teachings of many people until it came up. Did freedon Nadd ever mention them, either? Naga Sadow perhaps?
People working for Palpatine stole the Holocron and handed it back into 'Sith Hands'. Are you seriously going to make this argument?I'm seriously going to ask for the exact quote.
And we have it said, AGAIN, that Palpatine mastered the Telos Holocron (by virtue that he's accepted as its gatekeeper), he comments on incorporating Sadow's knowledge, comments Sadow shared all with Nadd and Kun, and was too generous (implying what precisely), and that he'll guard 'the bulk' of it, indicating he's sharing a little and keeping the rest.
I have no patience for this denial. [/B]This coming from the one full of strawman arguments, illogical reaching, and unhealthy denial? Good one.
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Yet Nadd canonically had Adas' holocron. No proof Sadow did.
It was given to the reigning Dark Lord of the Sith
I'm seriously going to ask for the exact quote.
From EnD: "Adas's Holocron was finally delivered back into Sith Hands after being stolen by Sir Nevil Triton of the Mecrosa Order during the Jedi Purge."
The bolded text is more reaching on your part. Show me a quote stating you have to have mastered the holocron to be its gatekeeper. Next, show me how being "too generous" with his knowledge equates to "sharing all".
That's how Sith Holocrons [b]work. You can't be accepted as a gatekeeper otherwise. Are you telling me he didn't master it despite clearly stating otherwise? Palpatine is portrayed as the master of the Holocron and its knowledge in the book.
Oh, and try this quote on for size: Palpatine has mastered "All known, previously unknown and forgotten, and invented new techniques at his leisure." according to the DE sourcebook.
Are you claiming Palpatine had this Holocron and never plumbed the depths of it?
He said he shared all his knowledge to Kun and Nadd who ended up coming to bad ends, recall.
This coming from the one full of strawman arguments, illogical reaching, and unhealthy denial? Good one. [/B]
My god, can you get over yourself You've been nothing but a belligerent ******* since I got back. It's tiresome.
Originally posted by LightsnakeUh, based on what evidence exactly?
It was given to the reigning Dark Lord of the Sith
From EnD: "Adas's Holocron was finally delivered back into Sith Hands after being stolen by Sir Nevil Triton of the Mecrosa Order during the Jedi Purge."Good job LS, you provided a quote. Now we know either Vader or Palpatine had it. Do we know if they studied it or are we just going to assume one of them did?
That's how Sith Holocrons work. You can't be accepted as a gatekeeper otherwise. Are you telling me he didn't master it despite clearly stating otherwise? Palpatine is portrayed as the master of the Holocron and its knowledge in the book.Nothing is clearing stating that he mastered it LS. Being the gatekeeper doesn't require mastery of the holocron but a certain level of skill or successful initiation by the previous gatekeeper. Stop reaching.
Oh, and try this quote on for size: Palpatine has mastered "All known, previously unknown and forgotten, and invented new techniques at his leisure." according to the DE sourcebook.Yes, I get it. Your last gasp quote that has been called hyperbole since your disappearance from this forum. This one isn't going to get you out of the jam that you're in.
Are you claiming Palpatine had this Holocron and never plumbed the depths of it?Strawman x5. Is this what you do when you get overwhelmingly defensive? Come up with a bunk conclusion from the other party and attempt to challenge it?
He said he shared all his knowledge to Kun and Nadd who ended up coming to bad ends, recall.Where?
My god, can you get over yourself You've been nothing but a belligerent ******* since I got back. It's tiresome. [/B]Because you come back years later with the same petty, tiresome, debunked arguments (symbolized by your Palpatine DE quote). If you at least attempted to hide your rampant PT fanboyism, others would engage you in debate more often. Otherwise, you're a lost cause.
Originally posted by Zampanó
Well, I'm just going to go with "Bane's 200 RPM saber speed" feat incessantly from now on.
Meh, I was never one who subscribed to the notion of using real world physics for a fictional debate. Otherwise, we have Luke and Kyp using the force to move planetary masses and other ridicilous notions including this Bane feat.
Originally posted by ares834
Meh, I was never one who subscribed to the notion of using real world physics for a fictional debate. Otherwise, we have Luke and Kyp using the force to move planetary masses and other ridicilous notions including this Bane feat.
Explain to me exactly where there is a disconnect between the physics of motion in SW and the physics of motion in our own world. Within canon, Bane was capable of vaporizing every inbound drop of rain during an intense rainstorm. For that to happen, his lightsaber had to move through each raindrop before the water reached his skin. His lightsaber had to make at least 200 rotations per minute for that to occur.
There is no magic plasma, no "other dimension," hell, no "universal energy field" to be dealt with here. This is basic unit-rate conversion that I could do as a seventh grader. Your claim that there is a shortcoming in the method without explanation, qualification, or proof, has lost you a lot of respect in my eyes.
If there is a problem with using physics in this instance, then by all means explain. If not, I expect a retraction of your objection within two (2) business days.
I just ran the numbers and if you use the "cloudburst" figure from the website I linked, then the necessary RPM ramps up to like 73,000 in order to mimic a solid disc of protection.
Holy hell.