Originally posted by Nephthys
Not on that scale perhaps but the point still stands. Do we think that the attack is unblockable or do we think that Nihilus is strong enough to overwhelm hundreds of Jedi Masters at once?
I've already told you how Nihilus isn't even human, apparently the creators of Nihilus have decided that he should be some kind of void that destroys the Force (and thus the entire galaxy right?) enabling him to kill a large amount of Force users. Can Kreia do that? No, because they're two different characters with a different amount of power.
Is it? What we are asking is whether the attack is even dependant upon strength. Theres quite a bit of evidence that says no.
I'm quite sure that the more powerful the user, the more powerful the effects of the attack. Just like Force Lightning, Telekinesis, Battle Meditation, etc...
Also, a maybe off-topic question, but why didn't she use the attack on Sion if the attack is unblockable? Hmm, maybe because Sion was more powerful perhaps?
They were Jedi Council Members during wartime with one of them apparantly the Battlemaster of the Order.
Those are titles, Council members are not soley chosen for their power by the way and the Battlemaster of the Golden Era of the Jedi got killed by a one handed Anakin.
Kavar and Douche Van Baldy both can Stasis Field around a dozen combatants at once and all of them were advanced enough to utilise the Wall of Light technique, a high level technique noted to be 'difficult' to perform on top of possessing those advanced lightsaber forms and Force techniques that you can steal from them.
Source please.
And even if they were only 2's while an average Jedi Master is a 3 and an above average one is a 4 or a 5, 3 of them still adds up to 6.Simple. 🙂
Wuuuut. I can't believe you said something like this. It's disturbing how you use numbers in this situation.
So if the three Masters attacking Sidious were 3's, because let's pretend they're just average Jedi Masters, then Sidious was at least a 9 (probably higher due to the quickness he killed them and not even counting Mace). A 9, while an above average Force user is 4 or 5? And Nihilus is more than a 200 then? 40 times the power of an above average Force user?
well. Why don't we take this to the proper thread however.
K.
Originally posted by Slash_KMC
I've already told you how Nihilus isn't even human, apparently the creators of Nihilus have decided that he should be some kind of void that destroys the Force (and thus the entire galaxy right?) enabling him to kill a large amount of Force users. Can Kreia do that? No, because they're two different characters with a different amount of power.
I fail to see what Nihilus unfortunate body woes have to do with anything. Does being merely a Force spirit mean that their attacks suddenly cannot be blocked or that they leap in power a few dozen times? I don't think so. Likewise merely being a Wound in the Force does not affect your overall power or combat effectiveness directly, but only instead with lots of DRAINAGE!
As I said, Kreia has never demonstrated the ability to kill on such a scale. But I take it that your talk about power has it that your answer to my question with a leaning to the latter? That Nihilus is in fact powerful enough to overwhelm an entire planet of Force Sensitives as well as hundreds of Jedi Masters?
Originally posted by Slash_KMC
I'm quite sure that the more powerful the user, the more powerful the effects of the attack. Just like Force Lightning, Telekinesis, Battle Meditation, etc...
Oh I quite agree. You might want to inform old Gid about that though.
Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Also, a maybe off-topic question, but why didn't she use the attack on Sion if the attack is unblockable? Hmm, maybe because Sion was more powerful perhaps?
When? While there was a Wound in the Force present or while she was still recovering from a bad case of Force-loss and Death.
Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Those are titles, Council members are not soley chosen for their power by the way and the Battlemaster of the Golden Era of the Jedi got killed by a one handed Anakin.
It would be an issue that I imagine would be foremost on their minds during a war.
So did Sidious. 😐
Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Source please.
Kotor 2.
Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Wuuuut. I can't believe you said something like this. It's disturbing how you use numbers in this situation.
My logic is infallible.
Originally posted by Slash_KMC
So if the three Masters attacking Sidious were 3's, because let's pretend they're just average Jedi Masters, then Sidious was at least a 9 (probably higher due to the quickness he killed them and not even counting Mace).
Mmmmmmm, no I think not. Sidious overwhelmed them. He was simply too quick for them to react to and killed them one by one. Kreia overpowered them all at the same time. So she would need to be either attacking each individual with more power than they could defend against at teh same time, or simply using an unblockable attack.
Originally posted by Slash_KMC
A 9, while an above average Force user is 4 or 5? And Nihilus is more than a 200 then? 40 times the power of an above average Force user?
You're the one saying it, not me.
Originally posted by Slash_KMC
K.
<3
Originally posted by Nephthys
I fail to see what Nihilus unfortunate body woes have to do with anything. Does being merely a Force spirit mean that their attacks suddenly cannot be blocked or that they leap in power a few dozen times? I don't think so. Likewise merely being a Wound in the Force does not affect your overall power or combat effectiveness directly, but only instead with lots of DRAINAGEAs I said, Kreia has never demonstrated the ability to kill on such a scale. But I take it that your talk about power has it that your answer to my question with a leaning to the latter? That Nihilus is in fact powerful enough to overwhelm an entire planet of Force Sensitives as well as hundreds of Jedi Masters?
Yes, I can't deny that Nihilus is in fact powerful enough to overwhelm an entire planet of Force Sensitives. I'm not saying it's not retarded though.
But the way his hunger works does have to do with the way he is. Before Malachor he wouldn't have been able to do that.
Oh I quite agree. You might want to inform old Gid about that though.
He says that a technique is not dependant on the power of it's user?
When? While there was a Wound in the Force present or while she was still recovering from a bad case of Force-loss and Death.
Other thread. I'm not in the mood for repeating too much. 🙂
It would be an issue that I imagine would be foremost on their minds during a war.
Really? I'd think the first criteria to choose a leader in times of war would be his wisdom and strategic intelligence...
So did Sidious. 😐
💃
Kotor 2.
I don't remember the words "Wall of Light" in the game...
Mmmmmmm, no I think not. Sidious overwhelmed them. He was simply too quick for them to react to and killed them one by one. Kreia overpowered them all at the same time. So she would need to be either attacking each individual with more power than they could defend against at teh same time, or simply using an unblockable attack.
But Sidious is more powerful than all 3 of them together though. Which makes him at least a 9.
You're the one saying it, not me.
I'm using your number logic. To show how WRONG it is.
<3
Rawr.
Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Yes, I can't deny that Nihilus is in fact powerful enough to overwhelm an entire planet of Force Sensitives. I'm not saying it's not retarded though.But the way his hunger works does have to do with the way he is. Before Malachor he wouldn't have been able to do that.
Well I'll have to bring that up in the future. Overpowering that many other Jedi at once is unprecidented. For reference, Bane was unable to overpower as little as 8 Umbaran assassins. Nihilus truely would be ungodly powerful if we scale that.
(personally I'm sticking to the 'unblockable technique' though)
Originally posted by Slash_KMC
He says that a technique is not dependant on the power of it's user?
He says that this one isn't.
Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Other thread. I'm not in the mood for repeating too much. 🙂
Oh, very well.
Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Really? I'd think the first criteria to choose a leader in times of war would be his wisdom and strategic intelligence...
Thats because our leaders don't wade into battle like Jedi Masters do.
Plus the Jedi Masters completely failed on the wisdom and strategy front.
Originally posted by Slash_KMC
I don't remember the words "Wall of Light" in the game...
The actual words were not but you do remember when they were trying to cut the Exile off from the Force right?
Originally posted by Slash_KMC
But Sidious is more powerful than all 3 of them together though. Which makes him at least a 9.
Truely? I don't think he is.
Originally posted by Slash_KMC
I'm using your number logic. To show how WRONG it is.
🤨
"Yes, I can't deny that Nihilus is in fact powerful enough to overwhelm an entire planet of Force Sensitives."
mmm
Originally posted by Nephthys
Well I'll have to bring that up in the future. Overpowering that many other Jedi at once is unprecidented. For reference, Bane was unable to overpower as little as 8 Umbaran assassins. Nihilus truely would be ungodly powerful if we scale that.(personally I'm sticking to the 'unblockable technique' though)
The creators have made it clear that they wanted to make this character so powerful. What with his pulling ships from cores and stuff.
He says that this one isn't.
I don't think a weak Force user would be able to use this technique as efficient as Kreia.
Thats because our leaders don't wade into battle like Jedi Masters do.Plus the Jedi Masters completely failed on the wisdom and strategy front.
Wait, have we seen even ONE council member wade into battle during the KOTOR games? To me they pretty much seemed to stay at Dantooine to train new Jedi while they send the others out to battle.
There is also nothing to indicate they failed during any of the wars... They got overpowered by Revan's intelligence and overwhelming amount of fast-producing ships at first, but after that and Bastila Shan using her Battle Meditation it was pretty even. Also, during TOR there is nothing to indicate that they completely failed in intelligence and wisdom.
The actual words were not but you do remember when they were trying to cut the Exile off from the Force right?
Mhm: "Kavar and Douche Van Baldy both can Stasis Field around a dozen combatants at once and all of them were advanced enough to utilise the Wall of Light technique, a high level technique noted to be 'difficult' to perform on top of possessing those advanced lightsaber forms and Force techniques that you can steal from them."
1) both can Stasis Field around a dozen combatants at once,
When did this happen. What does this have to do with trying to cut the Exile off from the Force.
2) noted to be 'difficult' to perform
Where is it noted. What does this have to do with trying to cut the Exile off from the Force.
Truely? I don't think he is.
Well that's your wrong opinion that contradicts the movie then.
🤨"Yes, I can't deny that Nihilus is in fact powerful enough to overwhelm an entire planet of Force Sensitives."
mmm
That has nothing to do with your wrong use of numbers. It's like you're saying that because Magneto is a level 4 mutant, he can only take on a maximum of 4 level 1 mutants. It is just wrong to use numbers in a off nothing based way like this.
You're not SW_Legend are you?
Originally posted by Slash_KMC
The creators have made it clear that they wanted to make this character so powerful. What with his pulling ships from cores and stuff.
But the scale of it is ridiculous and contradictory. I will be continuing to use it as further evidence as to the attacks unblockable nature if you don't mind because anything else is patently absurd.
Originally posted by Slash_KMC
I don't think a weak Force user would be able to use this technique as efficient as Kreia.
Or as Nihilus.
Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Wait, have we seen even ONE council member wade into battle during the KOTOR games? To me they pretty much seemed to stay at Dantooine to train new Jedi while they send the others out to battle.
Erm, yes. Like, every single one of them in Kotor 2. Kavar protects the palace, Vrook defends Dantooine and Zez-Ki Ell attacks the Exchange. Theres alos the fact that it is far better to have leaders who can actually survive a war rather than those who would die at the first sign of battle. Vrook for example was able to survive and escape from Malaks attack on Dantooine.
And to have the Battlemaster of the Order be a weakling is ****ing retarded.
Originally posted by Slash_KMC
There is also nothing to indicate they failed during any of the wars... They got overpowered by Revan's intelligence and overwhelming amount of fast-producing ships at first, but after that and Bastila Shan using her Battle Meditation it was pretty even. Also, during TOR there is nothing to indicate that they completely failed in intelligence and wisdom.
In Kotor 2 the entire plot is about how much the Jedi Masters have cocked-up. About how they failed in their philosophy, teachings and strategy. They bungled the Mandalorian invasion, ****ed up with Revan, got the absolute shit kicked out of them by the Triumvirate and acted facepalmingly poorly in the face of the Exile's return. They had no plan to deal with the Sith. They got lucky that Bastila was able to use BM to save their asses and they got lucky that Revan was injured and captured and then saved their asses again. And then they got even more lucky that Revan didn't tear their heads off as soon as he regained his memories.
Who cares about TOR.
Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Mhm: "Kavar and Douche Van Baldy both can Stasis Field around a dozen combatants at once and all of them were [B]advanced enough to utilise the Wall of Light technique, a high level technique noted to be 'difficult' to perform on top of possessing those advanced lightsaber forms and Force techniques that you can steal from them."1) both can Stasis Field around a dozen combatants at once,
When did this happen. What does this have to do with trying to cut the Exile off from the Force.[/b]
Vrook does it if when you 'save' him from the dudes holding him captive in the cave. Kavar does it in the canteen where you meet him and the later in the palace. It has nothing to do with cutting the Exile off from the Force, I'm using it as an example of their power and skill.
Originally posted by Slash_KMC
2) noted to be 'difficult' to performWhere is it noted. What does this have to do with trying to cut the Exile off from the Force.
"When you feel the dark side energies turned against you, you must use your Jedi abilities to take power away from an opponent, rather than to inflict harm. This technique blinds your enemy to the Force with a wall of light, a permanent blockage if you so choose, rendering him unable to use Jedi powers. It is difficult. And it is the most devastating attack possible using the powers of the light side."
-Odan-Urr, via the Tedryn Holocron
What the **** do you think it has to do with it? 😐
Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Well that's your wrong opinion that contradicts the movie then.
No it isn't. It doesn't contradict the movie in any way.
Originally posted by Slash_KMC
That has nothing to do with your wrong use of numbers. It's like you're saying that because Magneto is a level 4 mutant, he can only take on a maximum of 4 level 1 mutants. It is just wrong to use numbers in a off nothing based way like this.You're not SW_Legend are you?
No its nothing like that. Its like saying that because Magneto is a level 4 mutant who uses magntatism, he can only take on a maximum of 4 level 1 mutants who also use magnatism, if he does so all at the same time. You see, because they're focusing their power on him he is facing the brunt of their powers combined (or the otherway around, where he is splitting his power between them 4 times).
Its an equalisation of force you see, as if one person was pulling a rope on one end, while 4 people, who by themselves are only 25% as strong as him, are pulling on the other end. Combined, they can exert equal force as he can and so there is an equalibrium. Now if we take this to the Kreia example we have Kreia managing to pull on the rope so hard that the 3 Jedi Masters combined are not able to equal her exerted force, and thus she overpowers them.
As an aside, this is why Palpatine taking out the the B-team isn't a comparable example. He is not directly engaging their combined strength as Kreia is. He is running up to them and stabbing them in the face individually. Because as an individual he is faster than any of them can react. Now naturally he could take them out with the Force, because he could just attack them one at a time and overwhelm them one at a time, just like he did in lightsaber combat. But if he attacked all of them at once and still managed to overwhelm them? Now that an entirely different kettle of fish.
Originally posted by Nephthys
But the scale of it is ridiculous and contradictory. I will be continuing to use it as further evidence as to the attacks unblockable nature if you don't mind because anything else is patently absurd.
As if this is the first the scale of a Force Power is ridiculous (see Gideon and Sidious for further examples). Also, how exactly is it contradictory?
Erm, yes. Like, every single one of them in Kotor 2. Kavar protects the palace, Vrook defends Dantooine and Zez-Ki Ell attacks the Exchange.
There's no Galactic war during Kotor 2, nor is there a Jedi Order left. They weren't chosen to be on the Council to do all that, every Jedi could do that in fact.
Theres alos the fact that it is far better to have leaders who can actually survive a war rather than those who would die at the first sign of battle. Vrook for example was able to survive and escape from Malaks attack on Dantooine.
And other Council members didn't survive Malaks attack ORBITAL BOMBING. How is Vrook powerful by surviving an orbital bombing, isn't that more likely due to his intelligence?
I still think Council members would rather have to be intelligent and wise than powerful.
And to have the Battlemaster of the Order be a weakling is ****ing retarded.
Where did I say he was a "weakling"? Don't put words in my mouth please.
In Kotor 2 the entire plot is about how much the Jedi Masters have cocked-up. About how they failed in their philosophy, teachings and strategy. They bungled the Mandalorian invasion, ****ed up with Revan, got the absolute shit kicked out of them by the Triumvirate and acted facepalmingly poorly in the face of the Exile's return. They had no plan to deal with the Sith. They got lucky that Bastila was able to use BM to save their asses and they got lucky that Revan was injured and captured and then saved their asses [b]again. And then they got even more lucky that Revan didn't tear their heads off as soon as he regained his memories.Who cares about TOR.[/B]
Remember, this is about what you need to be to get on the Jedi Council.
1) This entire Revan **** up during the Jedi Civil war wouldn't even have happened if every Jedi listened to the Council. I don't know how sending the strike team to kill Revan would be a stupid act either.
2) They got overpowered by Nihilus right before Kotor 2. I wouldn't actually consider it a total failure of their intelligence. They actually did have a plan to deal with the Sith after they finally revealed themselves (maybe you should play Kotor 2 again).
An intelligent and thought through plan may always have cons. If people could come up with plans without risks or disadvantages during war, they must be Godlike indeed.
And TOR features one of the largest wars ever, I think it would be logical to take this one in account as well.
Vrook does it if when you 'save' him from the dudes holding him captive in the cave.
Ehm what? Can you point to me exactly where he does it. I'll provide a link for you to make it easier: http://www.youtube.com/user/KotorHDTVChannel#p/u/22/0GNZoIriOMU
Kavar does it in the canteen where you meet him and the later in the palace. It has nothing to do with cutting the Exile off from the Force, I'm using it as an example of their power and skill.
Around a dozen? I've checked and that's hardly around a dozen.
"When you feel the dark side energies turned against you, you must use your Jedi abilities to take power away from an opponent, rather than to inflict harm. This technique blinds your enemy to the Force with a wall of light, a permanent blockage if you so choose, rendering him unable to use Jedi powers. [b]It is difficult. And it is the most devastating attack possible using the powers of the light side."
-Odan-Urr, via the Tedryn HolocronWhat the **** do you think it has to do with it? 😐[/B]
Could they use it individually or did they have to work together to perform it though?
No it isn't. It doesn't contradict the movie in any way.
Well, I don't feel like arguing over another completely different subject right now, but I let's just say that I do think he can overpower all 3 of them together.
No its nothing like that. Its like saying that because Magneto is a level 4 mutant [b]who uses magntatism, he can only take on a maximum of 4 level 1 mutants who also use magnatism, if he does so all at the same time. You see, because they're focusing their power on him he is facing the brunt of their powers combined (or the otherway around, where he is splitting his power between them 4 times).Its an equalisation of force you see, as if one person was pulling a rope on one end, while 4 people, who by themselves are only 25% as strong as him, are pulling on the other end. Combined, they can exert equal force as he can and so there is an equalibrium. Now if we take this to the Kreia example we have Kreia managing to pull on the rope so hard that the 3 Jedi Masters combined are not able to equal her exerted force, and thus she overpowers them.
[/B]
But that way you have to add other variables as well. Both sides aren't even attacking at the same time. The Masters are charging with their lightsabers ready for a duel. She is using a Force Power, one they are not even familiar with. It's not like they are all using Force Push at the same time and she is overpowering them 3 to 1. That is, according to your own logic. Yoda hit Sidious with a Force Push and throws him over, does that make him more powerful?
Still the number system makes no sense and is not based on anything that can be proven. "2" being them and "4" being an above average Force user...
Originally posted by Slash_KMC
As if this is the first the scale of a Force Power is ridiculous (see Gideon and Sidious for further examples). Also, how exactly is it contradictory?
I don't recall Sidious ever overpowering a hundred Force users at once.
I'm fine if you want to argue this version though, as it would legitimately make Nihilus the most poweful thing in Star Wars save perhaps Abeloth.
Originally posted by Slash_KMC
There's no Galactic war during Kotor 2, nor is there a Jedi Order left. They weren't chosen to be on the Council to do all that, every Jedi could do that in fact.
Because theres already been a Galactic War. Which they survived. Even if they were not chosen for their strength, their survival proves it. People hold Coleman Trebor up as an example of why a Jedi master doesn't have to be powerful to be a Master. And he didn't survive the first 10 minutes of a war. These Masters survived years of it.
Originally posted by Slash_KMC
And other Council members didn't survive Malaks attack ORBITAL BOMBING. How is Vrook powerful by surviving an orbital bombing, isn't that more likely due to his intelligence?
Orbital bombing?
yk6bEPcCrRA&feature=channel_video_title
Now how exactly did Malak capture those intact Jedi bodies if he bombarded the Academy from orbit? I trust I don't need to remind you of the utter destruction an orbital bombardment causes. Enough to destroy an entire planets surface.
Originally posted by Slash_KMC
I still think Council members would rather have to be intelligent and wise than powerful.
To be on the Coucil perhaps. To still be on the Council after the Civil War and the Truimvirates Shadow War? No. 😬
Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Where did I say he was a "weakling"? Don't put words in my mouth please.
The clear implication you are making is that though. I say that they're at least average Jedi Master levels and you attempt to refute me. I mean, you're actually arguing thet their power combined doesn't equal Shaak Ti. Wtf?! Its not like I'm calling these guys the second coming here! But overcoming 3 Master-level is impressive.
Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Remember, this is about what you need to be to get on the Jedi Council.1) This entire Revan **** up during the Jedi Civil war wouldn't even have happened if every Jedi listened to the Council. I don't know how sending the strike team to kill Revan would be a stupid act either.
2) They got overpowered by Nihilus right before Kotor 2. I wouldn't actually consider it a total failure of their intelligence. They actually did have a plan to deal with the Sith after they finally revealed themselves (maybe you should play Kotor 2 again).
An intelligent and thought through plan may always have cons. If people could come up with plans without risks or disadvantages during war, they must be Godlike indeed.
And TOR features one of the largest wars ever, I think it would be logical to take this one in account as well.
1) Revan was a **** up because of how they handled Revan. Its their fault for training him incorrectly. He was their student. And their refusal to aid him during teh Madalorian War was what pushed him down the darkside in the first place.
2) Their plan was 'Lets wait and see.' Which was also their plan for the Mandalorian War. And the Initial Triumvirate attacks. 😐
The Council ****ing suck in the Kotor games.
TOR happens 2-300 years after Kotor 2. I fail to see the relevence to the Kotor-era Council.
Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Ehm what? Can you point to me exactly where he does it. I'll provide a link for you to make it easier: http://www.youtube.com/user/KotorHDTVChannel#p/u/22/0GNZoIriOMU
He does it if you decide not to rescue him, escaping on his own.
Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Around a dozen? I've checked and that's hardly around a dozen.
8 or so iirc.
Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Could they use it individually or did they have to work together to perform it though?
It doesn't matter. Techniques do not get easier to perform when you work in tandem with other Jedi, they just get moe powerful.
Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Well, I don't feel like arguing over another completely different subject right now, but I let's just say that I do think he can overpower all 3 of them together.
Kewl.
Originally posted by Slash_KMC
But that way you have to add other variables as well. Both sides aren't even attacking at the same time. The Masters are charging with their lightsabers ready for a duel. She is using a Force Power, one they are not even familiar with. It's not like they are all using Force Push at the same time and she is overpowering them 3 to 1. That is, according to your own logic. Yoda hit Sidious with a Force Push and throws him over, does that make him more powerful?Still the number system makes no sense and is not based on anything that can be proven. "2" being them and "4" being an above average Force user...
Not familiar with? 😬
They're the ones who talk about the technique for 10 effing minutes right before she uses it one them. Its like 30 seconds apart. And if knowing about the tehnique is an issue, then its still unblockable because no Jedi outside of the game demonstrates knowledge of it.
No to the Sidious example because the PIS was rampant in that scene and again we must assume that he wasn't expecting it. He is giggling into his hand at the time.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
But when it came time for four, he couldn't finish the job.
Our last discussion had me suspicious, but this one confirms it: You didn't watch the same movies I did.
Because at the end of the movie I saw, all four of them died. At Palpatine's hands.
Why is Canadian sarcasm always misplaced? 😬