Originally posted by Nephthys
Why not?I don't see you defending Starkiller, Vaders superior over in the other thread.
Mostly because I'm not reading the other thread?
Anyway, Starkiller isn't in this thread. Vader is in this thread and she doesn't beat Vader. His TK is too strong (see ya later floating lightsabers), he is too fast (see ya lader surprise attack on the Sith Assassins from Malachor), and he is historically strong in the Force.
Originally posted by Korto Vos
If you ignore the [B]controversial drain and see it as rather a powerful (regular version) Force Drain, then Starkiller would destroy Kreia in an objective fight. [/B]
We don't get to make up characters' abilities. Kreia's drain doesn't get changed to something simpler just to make her easier to debate.
Originally posted by Nephthys
And how exactly is ignoring her greatest asset an 'objective' fight?
Originally posted by Zampanó
We don't get to make up characters' abilities. Kreia's drain doesn't get changed to something simpler just to make her easier to debate.
I'm well aware that we can't "make up characters' abilities."
I just didn't want arguments like, "Kreia uses her insta-kill drain on all of them combined and wins!"
I wasn't trying to say that the drain becomes less powerful; it still retains its potency. However, its exact nature is the subject of the still ongoing debate in the other threads.
That's all. My apologies if you thought I was making up some bullsh1t.
Ignore what I said earlier, then.
Originally posted by Zampanó
Mostly because I'm not reading the other thread?Anyway, Starkiller isn't in this thread. Vader is in this thread and she doesn't beat Vader. His TK is too strong (see ya later floating lightsabers), he is too fast (see ya lader surprise attack on the Sith Assassins from Malachor), and he is historically strong in the Force.
Shame.
His TK is irrelevent, as he'll be dead before he can meaningfully affect Kreia and wha? Too fast? All she has to do is raise her hand. And Vader's not exactly known for his blinding speed. Hell, she killed 6-8 Sith assassins without any visible effort at all.
Originally posted by Zampanó
It wouldn't be. However, we don't have to ignore it. Kreia has shown the ability to drain three powerful individuals with a technique they do not fully understand. Vader has a much higher chance of mounting a defense; he can use, for example, the technique that protected him against the Dark Reaper.
Well if you had actually read the other thread you'd know that I tracked down footage of the Dark Reaper in action, and its nothing like Nihilus' or Kreia's drain. So yeah.
Premise 1: Kreia is able to use her instadrain without any warning or preparation.
Premise 2: Kreia's technique killed the Jedi Masters in KotOR II instantaneously.
Premise 3: Vader's defense is no stronger than those Jedi.
Premise 4: Vader will be unable to act while the drain is in progress.
Conclusion: Kreia is able to defeat Vader by dint of the drain alone.
Obviously, I disagree with a number of your premises. In order:
(1) Kreia sat down for several minutes prior to using the attack on the Jedi masters; it is not unusual for powerful techniques like this to require some sort of charge time. Look at Dooku, whose assault on Yoda is temporarily stopped while he initiates various TK attacks.
(3) Vader has experience resisting attacks on his command of the Force. The Dark Reaper uses just that kind of assault. Through Luke's account of learning the weather control technique in one of the more recent books, there is an instinctive method of learning new techniques similar to those already mastered. In that book, Luke just cycles through different mindsets until he discovers a new way to levitate an orb using electric charge. Vader, equipped with much the same connection to the Force, already has a technique known to defend his Force presence. It is a simple and instinctive matter, then, for him to resist the drain for some amount of time.
It is ludicrous to suggest that Vader's Force defense (which is largely an instinctive measure, according to many sources [See Zannah's first appearance, Mace in Shatterpoint, and even Maul against the Nightsister]) would be at the same level as the Jedi Council of KotOR II. Vader is equipped with a historically unique connection to the Force and the knowledge of how to defend against similar attacks. Kreia's other victims have no such advantages.
(4) Vader is well-known for using the Force in many directions at once. In ESB, when his character was still being defined, he used the Force on several objects at once during his bombardment of Luke. In RotS, after refining the franchise's approach to the Force, GL authorized a passage wherein Anakin tosses several different objects at the Count with back-breaking speed. Against a foe that stands stationary as Kreia always has, these tactics will be devastating.
His TK is irrelevent, as he'll be dead before he can meaningfully affect Kreia and wha? Too fast? All she has to do is raise her hand. And Vader's not exactly known for his blinding speed. Hell, she killed 6-8 Sith assassins without any visible effort at all.
Anyway, I quoted this passage and emphasized some of your words so that I can remind you of when he evaded Aleema Yar who had a lightsaber while he did not, as well as the entirety of The Force Unleashed.
Originally posted by Zampanó
Premise 1: Kreia is able to use her instadrain without any warning or preparation.
Premise 2: Kreia's technique killed the Jedi Masters in KotOR II instantaneously.
Premise 3: Vader's defense is no stronger than those Jedi.
Premise 4: Vader will be unable to act while the drain is in progress.
Conclusion: Kreia is able to defeat Vader by dint of the drain alone.Obviously, I disagree with a number of your premises. In order:
(1) Kreia sat down for several minutes prior to using the attack on the Jedi masters; it is not unusual for powerful techniques like this to require some sort of charge time. Look at Dooku, whose assault on Yoda is temporarily stopped while he initiates various TK attacks.(3) Vader has experience resisting attacks on his command of the Force. The Dark Reaper uses just that kind of assault. Through Luke's account of learning the weather control technique in one of the more recent books, there is an instinctive method of learning new techniques similar to those already mastered. In that book, Luke just cycles through different mindsets until he discovers a new way to levitate an orb using electric charge. Vader, equipped with much the same connection to the Force, already has a technique known to defend his Force presence. It is a simple and instinctive matter, then, for him to resist the drain for some amount of time.
It is ludicrous to suggest that Vader's Force defense (which is largely an instinctive measure, according to many sources [See Zannah's first appearance, Mace in Shatterpoint, and even Maul against the Nightsister]) would be at the same level as the Jedi Council of KotOR II. Vader is equipped with a historically unique connection to the Force and the knowledge of how to defend against similar attacks. Kreia's other victims have no such advantages.
(4) Vader is well-known for using the Force in many directions at once. In ESB, when his character was still being defined, he used the Force on several objects at once during his bombardment of Luke. In RotS, after refining the franchise's approach to the Force, GL authorized a passage wherein Anakin tosses several different objects at the Count with back-breaking speed. Against a foe that stands stationary as Kreia always has, these tactics will be devastating.
Well, alright, it seems we will be getting a taste of a logician's debating style.
(1) Can you prove that it requires charge time? I doubt it. I can also refute it. For a start Kreia spent this time telepathically (or otherwise) listening in on the Exiles conversion, and only chose to attack the Council after they moved to cut the Exile off from the Force in a fit of anger at their arrogance. Furthermore we have seen the attack used against the Exile at a moments notice by Nihilus. I anticipate that you'll claim that he also had charge time, but I'll remind you that Visas (who is Force bonded to him, so she is in my mind quite reliable) points out that he doesn't give a shit about the party before you actually confront him. And also he uses another Force move beforehand on the party, as does Keia when she pushes Vrook on his ass. Lasty there is no evidence the attack requires a charge time, and so your point sadly falls into the category of baseless speculation.
As an aside I cannot recall a single other ability that requires a charge time. Would you care to name a few?
(2) No, it achieves the same ends. There is no evidence it is the same attack and can be blocked in the same way. Learning does not equal defending. Luke was not learning the weather control technique whilst the Force was being utterly drained from him in a few millisecends (at least, I assume 😉 ). Vader does not have the luxury of 'cylcing through a few different mindsets' until he can come up with a defence. Not unless he became a supergenius since last I saw him.
Also Qel'Droma's method of resisting the Dark Reaper is not a trditional form of defence against the ability. Personally I don't think it actually makes a lick of sense anyway. And as I explained in the other thread, I quite agree that Vader's personal defence would be greater than any one of the Jedi Council members. But she did not drain just one of them. She drained three of them seemingly without effort or fatique.
(4) And I suppose he can do this before she can raise her hand and smite him? Anakin throwing anything against the Count did not happen in the movie, so I assume thats not strictly canon.
Originally posted by Zampanó
Again, I disagree with the premise that the drain is instantaneous. If it is not, all he has to do is interrupt the attack, and suddenly Kreia is on the defensive.Anyway, I quoted this passage and emphasized some of your words so that I can remind you of when he evaded Aleema Yar who had a lightsaber while he did not, as well as the entirety of The Force Unleashed.
You have actually seen the scene of it killing the Jedi Masters right? It is pretty damn close to instantaneous. If you have any actual evidence that it isn't though then I'll be happy to hear it.
What about the Force Unleashed? I don't really recall him showing a great deal of speed there. Of course, I'm not calling him slow, its just that he hasn't shown the kind of speed where he can kill someone before they can raise their damn hand before to my knowledge.
Originally posted by Zampanó
It wouldn't be. However, we don't have to ignore it. Kreia has shown the ability to drain three powerful individuals with a technique they do not fully understand. Vader has a much higher chance of mounting a defense; he can use, for example, the technique that protected him against the Dark Reaper.
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