Kreia runs the gauntlet!

Started by Stealth Moose9 pages
Originally posted by Zampanó
Obviously, I disagree with a number of your premises. In order:
(1) Kreia sat down for several minutes prior to using the attack on the Jedi masters; it is not unusual for powerful techniques like this to require some sort of charge time. Look at Dooku, whose assault on Yoda is temporarily stopped while he initiates various TK attacks.

Already refuted by Neph. The point is, assuming a prep time when there is no such evidence is silly. You could suddenly assume prep time for a defense, prep time for TK, prep time for precog, etc. It opens up into endless and ultimately fruitless discussion and debate without factual evidence or even basic common sense backing it up.

(3) Vader has experience resisting attacks on his command of the Force. The Dark Reaper uses just that kind of assault. Through Luke's account of learning the weather control technique in one of the more recent books, there is an instinctive method of learning new techniques similar to those already mastered. In that book, Luke just cycles through different mindsets until he discovers a new way to levitate an orb using electric charge. Vader, equipped with much the same connection to the Force, already has a technique known to defend his Force presence. It is a simple and instinctive matter, then, for him to resist the drain for some amount of time.

This is a huge conditional:

If Vader's ability as taught to him by Ulic is sufficient enough to withstand Kreia's ability, and if he can enact it in time to avoid being drained (which assumes heavily that he is familiar with his opponent's use of the technique and that he recalls an ability he hasn't used but once in twenty some years), then it stands to reason he has a chance against her.

You can bawl all over about his historic connection to the Force all you want; Vader's potential is not realized, and his actual showings - while impressive - lack the finese and esoteric knowledge of older, established Sith such as Kreia, who had a world's worth of Ancient Sith artifacts, archives and energy at her feet.

It is ludicrous to suggest that Vader's Force defense (which is largely an instinctive measure, according to many sources [See Zannah's first appearance, Mace in Shatterpoint, and even Maul against the Nightsister]) would be at the same level as the Jedi Council of KotOR II. Vader is equipped with a historically unique connection to the Force and the knowledge of how to defend against similar attacks. Kreia's other victims have no such advantages.

By extention of this, it's ludicrous to assume that Kreia, who has shown the ability to floor multiple Jedi masters without having to resort to her lightsaber, would be defenseless against Vader because he:

1. TKed a bunch of small objects in a straightforward manner at an untrained Luke.

2. He can rawr angry Hulk TK stuff at times.

3. He has a historic level of the Force which he clearly divorces himself from on some level, restricting himself except for his rawr hulk smash moments.

4. He has consistently demonstrated less knowledge of Sith techniques than most Sith, being instead handfed very little from Sidious over the years.

So yeah, aside from assumptions about his defense, assumptions about his Force connection, I don't see a building argument here.

(4) Vader is well-known for using the Force in many directions at once. In ESB, when his character was still being defined, he used the Force on several objects at once during his bombardment of Luke. In RotS, after refining the franchise's approach to the Force, GL authorized a passage wherein Anakin tosses several different objects at the Count with back-breaking speed. Against a foe that stands stationary as Kreia always has, these tactics will be devastating.

So? Kreia can fight with three sabers simultaneously while raining down abilities like aforementioned Force Drain, TK, Slow/Stun/Fear, etc. She doesn't run all over because she doesn't have to; she can literally rain hell on foes with abandon. Only Nihilus overcame her because his power and nature implies that he's cosmically powerful. His voice sparked a reaction in the Force which consumed all life on a planet and ravaged its surface, so I'm forgiving that Kreia lost to him in a direct Force contest but can level just about anyone else.

Hell, when she decides to, Sion becomes her ***** without argument. This is a guy who can't die.

Again, I disagree with the premise that the drain is instantaneous. If it is not, all he has to do is interrupt the attack, and suddenly Kreia is on the defensive.

How can you disagree with visible proof that it's instantaneous? She doesn't bring out spell components, sign in the air, or go blonde and yell "KAMEHAMEHA"... She just states "I'm going to make you see through the eyes of the Exile" and gestures, and an arc of beam equivalent to Sith Lightning kills them.

How is Vader going to be faster than that (which he hasn't demonstrated) or is going to defend against it?

Lastly, Kreia has demonstrated the ability to hide herself in the Force, even when within a few dozen feet of other Force users (the Jedi Masters, Visas, and Atris). Vader lost Luke Skywalker in a single room. Against a powerful Jedi Master turned Sith who can make herself unsenseable, who can level a powerful and potentially fatal/KOing ability at will, and who besides that can demonstrate Force powers much more varied and refined (Stun/Slow/Fear)... How does Vader "tank" or "Speed DPS" all this before he drops dead?

Originally posted by Nephthys
(1) Can you prove that it requires charge time? I doubt it. I can also refute it. For a start Kreia spent this time telepathically (or otherwise) listening in on the Exiles conversion, and only chose to attack the Council after they moved to cut the Exile off from the Force in a fit of anger at their arrogance.

This is not an argument against charge time, nor is it an argument against her intention to attack; Kreia had established the groundwork for an Exile-less escape from Dantooine (i.e. arranged transportation) and was ready should her latest student "fail."
Originally posted by Nephthys
Furthermore we have seen the attack used against the Exile at a moments notice by Nihilus. I anticipate that you'll claim that he also had charge time, but I'll remind you that Visas (who is Force bonded to him, so she is in my mind quite reliable) points out that he doesn't give a shit about the party before you actually confront him.

I'll thank you not to use Visas against me; I am likewise of the mind that she is reliable. However, that does not detract from the resting potential of a Sith Lord's connection to the Force. When N. uses his drain, he has just been preparing to use it on Telos. When N. uses his drain, he is not in the midst of combat.

Moreover, you will have to substantiate that Kreia's drain is the same as N.'s. I think it is a bit of a jump to just assume that Kreia is using the exact same technique; this shows no visible effect when Kreia has the Force removed from her by N. Moreover, she mentions (during her exposition about N.) that it is an instinct that rules him like a drug. Kreia isn't the sort to become addicted to the Force.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And also he uses another Force move beforehand on the party, as does Keia when she pushes Vrook on his ass. Lasty there is no evidence the attack requires a charge time, and so your point sadly falls into the category of baseless speculation.

My point is not so much that she has to charge it up (although that is possible) but that she has not been shown to use it when a belligerent opponent is taken into consideration. My point is that she can use it when people wait for their turn to talk. Facing a speedblitz may be a different story.
Originally posted by Nephthys
As an aside I cannot recall a single other ability that requires a charge time. Would you care to name a few?

Path of Destruction
They were communing with the Force, all of them slipping into a meditative trance as one. Their minds drifted deeper and deeper into the well of power contained within each individual, drawing on their strength and combining it through a single conduit. Bane stood in the center of the circle, urging them on.

"Touch the dark side. The dark side is one. Indivisible."

The night sky filled with dark clouds and a fierce wind swirled across the plateau, tearing at the cloaks and capes of the Sith. The air shook with the thunder and crackle of a mounting electrical storm. Bolts of blue-white lightning arced through the air, and the temperature suddenly dropped.

"Give yourself over to the dark side. Let it surround you. Engulf you. Devour you."

The Brotherhood slipped deeper into the collective trance, barely even aware of the storm now raging about their physical selves. Bane stood at the eye of the storm, drawing the bolts of lightning into himself, feeding on them. He felt his strength surge as he channeled and focused the dark side from the others.

This is how it should be! All the power of the Brotherhood in one body! The only way to unleash the full potential of the dark side!

"Do you feel invincible? Invulnerable? Immortal?"

He had to shout to be heard above the howling wind and thunder. A web of lightning spiraled out from his body, connecting him to each of the other Sith. He shivered then suddenly went stiff, arms spread out at his sides. Slowly, his rigid body began to rise into the air.

"Can you feel it?" he screamed, feeling as if the raw power of the Force roaring through him might rip his very flesh asunder. "Are you ready to kill a world?"


Path of Destruction
"I agree," Bane replied, hurling out the wave of Force energy he had been gathering during the Blademaster's speech.

There was nothing subtle about Bane's attack: the massive shock wave shook the very foundations of the great Rakatan Temple. The concussive blast had enough power to shatter every bone in Kas'im's body and pulverize his flesh into a mass of pulpy liquid. But at the last possible instant he threw up a shield to protect himself from the attack.


The Force Unleashed
Deactivating his lightsaber and attaching the hilt to his belt, he adopted the opening stance of the Soresu form, with his right arm and fingers outstretched, pointing at the Star Destroyer. His empty left hand he tucked in next to his heart. With his legs braced firmly in the trash, he reached as deep as he had ever reached into the Force, and then went farther still, feeling as though a mighty chasm had opened up under him and his mind and will plunged down into it. The chasm filled. His mind opened. The physical existence of the Star Destroyer slid painlessly inside.

Originally posted by Nephthys
(2) No, it achieves the same ends. There is no evidence it is the same attack and can be blocked in the same way. Learning does not equal defending. Luke was not learning the weather control technique whilst the Force was being utterly drained from him in a few millisecends (at least, I assume 😉 ). Vader does not have the luxury of 'cylcing through a few different mindsets' until he can come up with a defence. Not unless he became a supergenius since last I saw him.

Also Qel'Droma's method of resisting the Dark Reaper is not a trditional form of defence against the ability. Personally I don't think it actually makes a lick of sense anyway. And as I explained in the other thread, I quite agree that Vader's personal defence would be greater than any one of the Jedi Council members. But she did not drain just one of them. She drained [b]three of them seemingly without effort or fatique.[/b]


The question isn't one of 'cycling through mindsets,' although I applaud your use of my own words against me. Instead, as I indicated just a few lines down, an established defensive avenue provides a place to start. Especially when a Force user is in danger, the Force is an instinctive defense. Given structure by formal technique, he will have a much better defense.

Admittedly, this is conjecture. However, the jump from "killed three Jedi Masters" to "one-shots Darth Vader" is a similarly large leap. I know you've argued against no-limits fallacies in the past, so I'm sure you'll appreciate my position here, as well. It is completely plausible that Darth Vader, augmented by a structured defense, is simply stronger than those three Jedi masters combined.

Originally posted by Nephthys
(4) And I suppose he can do this before she can raise her hand and smite him? Anakin throwing anything against the Count did not happen in the movie, so I assume thats not strictly canon.

I am particularly dubious about the speed with which you expect Kreia to attack. The pace of duels is quick enough that even a mere gesture becomes a great endeavor indeed. One gesture was all that stood between Mace's lightsaber and Palpatine, and look how that ended. No, in the space of time that it takes to blink, Windu can strike several times. Grievous strikes twenty times each second. A hand gesture is nothing to sneeze at.

In regards to canonicity, I can only reassert that GL approved each line of the novel, and draw your attention to various cutaways from the Anakin/Dooku duel itself (like Palpatine cheerleading) that provide opportunity for novelized content to not-contradict the movie. For reference, the quote:

Revenge of the Sith
While effortlessly deflecting a rain of blue-streaking cuts from Kenobi, Dooku felt the Force shove the situation table away from the wall and send it hurtling toward his back with astonishing speed; he barely managed to lift himself enough that he could backroll over it instead of having it shatter his spine.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You have actually seen the scene of it killing the Jedi Masters right? It is pretty damn close to instantaneous. If you have any actual evidence that it isn't though then I'll be happy to hear it.

Define instantaneous. Any duration whatsoever provides the mammoth TK abilities at Vader's disposal their opportunity. Reflexes of a pilot, no scratch that a pod racer mean that in less than a second, Kreia could be flying upside down and sideways into a bulkhead. When combined with his probably effective defense, Vader has a chance, at least, of resisting Kreia's drain even on her terms.
Originally posted by Nephthys
What about the Force Unleashed? I don't really recall him showing a great deal of speed there. Of course, I'm not calling him slow, its just that he hasn't shown the kind of speed where he can kill someone before they can raise their damn hand before to my knowledge.

Rise of Darth Vader
Lightsaber grasped in both hands, Vader took a single forward step and performed a lightning-fast underhand sweep that almost knocked Forte's lightsaber from Shryne's grip.

I'm cutting it close on length, so if you require more speedfeats I'll have them on next reply.[Edit: BULLSHIT. Message length: 9961 says "please reduce length to 10,000 characters!!]

Hello blindsided.

Janus, I'm sorry but I don't have time to reply to your post. Please PM Neph and have him copypaste anything relevant into his next reply.

Very well. I'll give Janus some time to send me anything he wants to say if he so wishes, or to decline if he is of that mind.

I'm at work, so feel free to unload. I'll offer support when needed. I don't have access to my SW ebooks or files, so I'm a bit hamstrung if pressed for sources.

SM
Already refuted by Neph. The point is, assuming a prep time when there is no such evidence is silly. You could suddenly assume prep time for a defense, prep time for TK, prep time for precog, etc. It opens up into endless and ultimately fruitless discussion and debate without factual evidence or even basic common sense backing it up.

Agreed, though I wish you would have indulged in this progressive thinking when we were discussing the ability of Palpatine to summon a Force Storm without preparation. You didn't seem so inclined then. mmm

SM
If Vader's ability as taught to him by Ulic is sufficient enough to withstand Kreia's ability,

Why wouldn't it be?

SM
and if he can enact it in time to avoid being drained (which assumes heavily that he is familiar with his opponent's use of the technique and that he recalls an ability he hasn't used but once in twenty some years),

Why wouldn't he?
Since when do we argue what a character will do versus what they can do? This isn't an RPG; there is no elected Game Master; there is no arbiter who decides what actions a character would and would not take during the course of a battle. That opens a can of worms as ugly and writhing as the one you suggest Zamp will open by arbitrarily introducing the existence of preparation where there is no evidence of it.

SM
then it stands to reason he has a chance against her.

A chance? If Vader is capable of negating the power of her drain, I see no reason why he doesn't effortlessly crush her. In fact, Zamp's correct in one regard: Nothing has been brought to the table by you or Zeph that suggests she'd last longer than the extent of Vader's amusement.

SM
You can bawl all over about his historic connection to the Force all you want;

He should, it's important. There's no evidence suggesting that her strength in the Force is remotely close to anything that, in turn, might remotely compare to Vader's regularly established primacy in that department.

SM
Vader's potential is not realized,

Zamp never argued that this was the case. But the recurring trend with Force potential is that it needn't be realized in order to be at play; it is Vader's strength in the Force that enables him to be so overwhelmingly powerful in spite of a limited arsenal of attacks when compared to the relatively vast skills of an advanced Sith like KreiaPalpatine.

SM
and his actual showings - while impressive - lack the finese and esoteric knowledge of older, established Sith such as Kreia,

Refresh my memory on Kreia's uberness beyond her Force drain, because I don't recall any. Her precognition and powers during the battle with the Exile were enhanced by the dark nexus of Malachor the ability to lift three lightsabers in the Force would make the Temple padawans in Attack of the Clones yawn.

SM
who had a world's worth of Ancient Sith artifacts, archives, and energy at her feet.

Which means?

SM
By extention of this, it's ludicrous to assume that Kreia, who has shown the ability to floor multiple Jedi masters without having to resort to her lightsaber, would be defenseless against Vader because he:

1. TKed a bunch of small objects in a straightforward manner at an untrained Luke.

2. He can rawr angry Hulk TK stuff at times.

3. He has a historic level of the Force which he clearly divorces himself from on some level, restricting himself except for his rawr hulk smash moments.

4. He has consistently demonstrated less knowledge of Sith techniques than most Sith, being instead handfed very little from Sidious over the years.

So yeah, aside from assumptions about his defense, assumptions about his Force connection, I don't see a building argument here.

Naturally, you disservice Vader and his feats rather completely, but that's okay, because Kreia even looks more pathetic via similar treatment. Vader's range of feats vastly outstrip Kreia's and no amount of mockery alters or undermines that fact in the slightest.

SM
So? Kreia can fight with three sabers simultaneously

General Grievous could use four and was a master of multiple styles of combat. Kreia's ability to almost replicate the same is woefully substandard, especially when one considers she was standing in the heart of a dark side nexus to pull that feat off. I guess the lightsabers are relevant only because of the comedic look of sheer horror Kreia will display when puts all three of them through her skull with his vastly superior telekinetic skills. 😬

SM
while raining down abilities like aforementioned Force Drain, TK, Slow/Stun/Fear, etc.

As Zamp has pointed out, Vader has a defense against the Force Drain and Kreia's telekinesis is paltry in comparison. Slow/Stun/Fear are the result of game play mechanics and are used so liberally that they might well have come straight from SW_LeGenD's deepest, darkest sexual fantasy. I'm not sure how they're important here, so if you wouldn't mind enlightening the non-believer, I'd appreciate it.

SM
She doesn't run all over because she doesn't have to; she can literally rain hell on foes with abandon. Only Nihilus overcame her because his power and nature implies that he's cosmically powerful. His voice sparked a reaction in the Force which consumed all life on a planet and ravaged its surface, so I'm forgiving that Kreia lost to him in a direct Force contest but can level just about anyone else.

Why didn't she use the attack on him? 😬

SM
Hell, when she decides to, Sion becomes her ***** without argument.

So her skills as a manipulator enhance her abilities as a Force-user and duelist? mmm

Let me try something,

SM, with addendum by Mr. Phennir
Hell, when she decides to, Sion[Dooku, the Senate, the galaxy] becomes herPalpatine's ***** without argument which makes him an uber fighter

Is this acceptable to you? Because that's pretty much what you're saying here, I gather.

SM
This is a guy who can't die.

The fact that he actually does die suggests otherwise. 😐

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
Why wouldn't it be?

Because it is not facing the same ability (nor is it an actual defence at all).

Originally posted by Nephthys
Because it is not facing the same ability (nor is it an actual defence at all).

According to?

Originally posted by Zampanó
This is not an argument against charge time, nor is it an argument against her intention to attack; Kreia had established the groundwork for an Exile-less escape from Dantooine (i.e. arranged transportation) and was ready should her latest student "fail."

You think that she was 'charging' her attack while simultaneously listening in on the conversation through the Force? Well woman can multi-task I guess....... 😬

And yeah it is an argument against her going to attack. She had no intention of attacking before they Council forced her to. Hell, the entire point of everything she did with the Exile was to shove him in their faces about how ****ing awesome he became under her tutalage. She wasn't intending to kill them when she went there (that you can prove >:3 ).

Originally posted by Zampanó
I'll thank you not to use Visas against me; I am likewise of the mind that she is reliable. However, that does not detract from the resting potential of a Sith Lord's connection to the Force. When N. uses his drain, he has just been preparing to use it on Telos. When N. uses his drain, he is not in the midst of combat.

Yeah, he wasn't in combat.

Because he's stunned the party. Do you suppose that a Force-user can charge up an ability, use another ability and then use the charged up ability? Oh and with the case of Kreia also telepathically listen in on a conversation whilst doing so? Yeah, I don't think so.

And 'resting potential?' Is Kreia coming into this fight after pulling a few all-nighters?

Originally posted by Zampanó
Moreover, you will have to substantiate that Kreia's drain is the same as N.'s. I think it is a bit of a jump to just assume that Kreia is using the exact same technique; this shows no visible effect when Kreia has the Force removed from her by N. Moreover, she mentions (during her exposition about N.) that it is an instinct that rules him like a drug. Kreia isn't the sort to become addicted to the Force.

Indeed, as much as I love Kotor 2 and **** it, it is wildly inconsistent on some aspects and really annoyingly vague and hard to understand on others. That the attack is invisible in the Betrayal scene would be because its actually a cutscene, and so graphical aspects may be different.

However:

And also Chris Avellone brought this out that changed the look again:

YouTube video

This one is the canonical one. It was brought out the latest and by the guy in charge of Kotor 2, effectively retconning it.

Theres also these little factoids:

"Darth Traya teaches the newly christened Darth Nihilus to harness his life-draining gift to radical heights -- so effectively, in fact, that Nihilus saps Traya's powers in a calculated double cross." -- KotOR Campaign Guide, page 160. (again, thank you Gideon 😉 )

So, yeah, its the same move.

Originally posted by Zampanó
My point is not so much that she has to charge it up (although that is possible) but that she has not been shown to use it when a belligerent opponent is taken into consideration. My point is that she can use it when people wait for their turn to talk. Facing a speedblitz may be a different story.

Explain why and how this would be the case please. I doubt she'll freak out at having a dude run towards her. ***** got balls.

Originally posted by Zampanó
The question isn't one of 'cycling through mindsets,' although I applaud your use of my own words against me. Instead, as I indicated just a few lines down, an established defensive avenue provides a place to start. Especially when a Force user is in danger, the Force is an instinctive defense. Given structure by formal technique, he will have a much better defense.

Thank you for the compliment.

Your point might stand if the ability was actually a defensive action at all. It isn't something that can block the attack and its not something you can do after you've been hit either so its useless. Furthermore its an ability to nullify a diffferent attack. And theres no way Vader will be able to modify it in the milliseconds he'll have before being completely cut off from the Force.

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
According to?

Go see my reply in the other thread.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Go see my reply in the other thread.

I did, and all I saw was a reference to gameplay animations, i.e. they look different. Which is pretty funny. 😐

Originally posted by Zampanó
Admittedly, this is conjecture. However, the jump from "killed three Jedi Masters" to "one-shots Darth Vader" is a similarly large leap. I know you've argued against no-limits fallacies in the past, so I'm sure you'll appreciate my position here, as well. It is completely plausible that Darth Vader, augmented by a structured defense, is simply stronger than those three Jedi masters combined.

I find that completely implausable. (and I've already argued this point in the other thread and don't feel like repeating myself).

Originally posted by Zampanó
I am particularly dubious about the speed with which you expect Kreia to attack. The pace of duels is quick enough that even a mere gesture becomes a great endeavor indeed. One gesture was all that stood between Mace's lightsaber and Palpatine, and look how that ended.

Do you mean when he was attempting a Coup de Grace on Palpatine? Yeah, because I'm sure he was using his full combat speed at that point.

Originally posted by Zampanó
No, in the space of time that it takes to blink, Windu can strike several times. Grievous strikes twenty times each second. A hand gesture is nothing to sneeze at.

I'm confused since all you're pointing out is how quickly a gesture can be (or moving their arms at any rate) which totally backs up my argument. If you want to argue that Vader can run up and attack her before she can simply gesture you'll need to do a bit better I'm afraid.

Originally posted by Zampanó
In regards to canonicity, I can only reassert that GL approved each line of the novel, and draw your attention to various cutaways from the Anakin/Dooku duel itself (like Palpatine cheerleading) that provide opportunity for novelized content to not-contradict the movie. For reference, the quote:

Thank you for the quote. Sadly no situation table is ever moved in the movie, so its non-canon.

Originally posted by Zampanó
Define instantaneous. Any duration whatsoever provides the mammoth TK abilities at Vader's disposal their opportunity. Reflexes of a pilot, no scratch that a pod racer mean that in less than a second, Kreia could be flying upside down and sideways into a bulkhead. When combined with his probably effective defense, Vader has a chance, at least, of resisting Kreia's drain even on her terms.

There is no humanly noticable travel time in teh attack. The same attack that covered an entire planet in less than an hour.

'Probably effective defence?' Haha, nah.

Anakin did have the reflexes of a pilot when he actually had arms. Since his loss Vader is significantly less agile and fast, as noted by Lucas in his 'cyborgs and old-men' speech.

Rise of Darth Vader
Lightsaber grasped in both hands, Vader took a single forward step and performed a lightning-fast underhand sweep that almost knocked Forte's lightsaber from Shryne's grip.

Lightning-fast? Was he also faster than the speed of love? Obvious hyperbole.

Notice that Escape drops out of cloak mode and swoops in on my argument. No wai!!!

Originally posted by Turr_PhennirAgreed, though I wish you would have indulged in this progressive thinking when we were discussing the ability of Palpatine to summon a Force Storm without preparation. You didn't seem so inclined then. mmm

I thought we agreed that in the context of the story, DE Sids was requiring some prep to make the ability work, else he could not have been "distracted" and "lost control". Also, we concluded that DE Sids does not deliberately drop Storms on his lap and expect to survive, so it never had the importance in these versus forums as we put on it.

Why wouldn't it be?

That depends on whether or not you believe that the ability is a "catch-all" for all types and uses of Force Drain, and whether or not Vader would recognize his foe as being one who utilizes Force Drain and quickly work up the defense.

The second part in particular is crucial; Kreia has demonstrated the will and the power to employ her drain when threatened or when she feels it is warranted. It is not established that Vader would recognize Kreia, that he would think "Oh hai, Furce Drainz, me bring up DBZ sheildz", and that he would be successful in time to block what appears to be instant.

Why wouldn't he?
Since when do we argue what a character will do versus what they can do? This isn't an RPG; there is no elected Game Master; there is no arbiter who decides what actions a character would and would not take during the course of a battle. That opens a can of worms as ugly and writhing as the one you suggest Zamp will open by arbitrarily introducing the existence of preparation where there is no evidence of it.

Part of making a convincing argument instead of arguing out of your ass is knowing when and where defenses are appropriate against obvious advantages the opposition has. In a field like SW, where Force defense is extremely nebulous and open to interpretation, arguing context is important because we're assuming for the sake of common sense that the battle will not consist of "spam abilities at highest peak" but "this is how X acts, and will act similarly in battle with Y, unless the TC says otherwise".

In the Battlezone, it's noted that Yoda and Voldemort are combat ready, unhampered by either setting or arbitrary rules, and have a basic knowledge of the others' combat abilities. Since this is not put forth here (allowing for participant's interpretation instead), it's perfectly logical to assume Vader would be caught flat-footed against an ancient technique which he has only ever encountered once, and that years ago by the Reaper.

If someone assumes Vader would instantly recognize Kreia, recognize her ability and muster a counter in the time it takes for his brain synapses to fire, then by all means, provide instances. I'm waiting.

A chance? If Vader is capable of negating the power of her drain, I see no reason why he doesn't effortlessly crush her. In fact, Zamp's correct in one regard: Nothing has been brought to the table by you or Zeph that suggests she'd last longer than the extent of Vader's amusement.

Here's the run of Vader's "edge" here:

1. He's bigger.

2. He has a historic connection to the Forcewhichhedoesn'trealizebuthey****thatbecauseitsaskewedargument.

3. Kreia has not been directly measured up against Vader or anyone Vader can be equated with when it comes to saber use or general Force use (read: rawr!TK); therefore, she is weaker.

So really, what am I combating?

He should, it's important. There's no evidence suggesting that her strength in the Force is remotely close to anything that, in turn, might remotely compare to Vader's regularly established primacy in that department.

You're missing the point - his potential does not decide his battles for him. Read: Starkiller losing to Vader and Sidious. Read: Luke Skywalker losing to anyone. Read: Anakin being beaten by Obi-Wan.

Would you argue Skywalker > Yoda based on his uber connection? Of course not. It is a facet of his backstory, but it does not net him a clear victory in all battles, or many for that matter. In one particular instance (Dooku), he tapped this potential and beat one of the best Jedi in the Order evah by your own admission/opinion/random quote, but then Obi-Wan who was ranked lower by nearly everyone held him at bay until he undid himself.

Now, am I expected to believe that Anakin is to be taken at full peak/faultless measure in all battles? That's even more *****-happy than Kreia's insta-kill, or Kun's spammin' amulets. If Anakin "taps" his potential in any and all versus battles, he ought to be outright ignored and replaced with someone far more reasonable. Like Starkiller.

Zamp never argued that this was the case. But the recurring trend with Force potential is that it needn't be realized in order to be at play; it is Vader's strength in the Force that enables him to be so overwhelmingly powerful in spite of a limited arsenal of attacks when compared to the relatively vast skills of an advanced Sith like KreiaPalpatine.

Yet Palpatine would spank Vader like his disobedient child, even before his DE incarnation. The gap between Palpatine and Vader is considerable, and the main difference between them is Vader's own mental limitations and Palp's larger base of Force knowledge. To be it bluntly, Vader is the guy who comes to the raid having put all his points in Swing Sword, Throw Shit while everyone else has support/AoE/CC abilities on top of that.

Against someone who is wise in the Force and formidable, he looks very basic. His hope is in an ability that he can or cannot use instantly and successfully, and getting in close, tanking three floating sabers and Force attacks left right and center to swing his big glow stick.

Suuuure.

Refresh my memory on Kreia's uberness beyond her Force drain, because I don't recall any. Her precognition and powers during the battle with the Exile were enhanced by the dark nexus of Malachor the ability to lift three lightsabers in the Force would make the Temple padawans in Attack of the Clones yawn.

Kreia demonstrates Stun/Slow/Fear/Lightning abilities in the game. Also, since when is it mentioned that she can only TK three blades on Malachor? Dark Side Nexus points aid Dark Side powers, hence their name. They don't boost neutral TK, dude. I don't suddenly lift X-wings because I'm squatting on Korriban, lol.

I'm near my char limit, and not going to repeat myself again.

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
I did, and all I saw was a reference to gameplay animations, i.e. they look different. Which is pretty funny. 😐

The difference in Kotor 2 and Unseen, Unheard is completely logical and justified as Avellone was the creator of both. No such link exists the explain the discrepency between the Clone Wars game and K2 and UU.

You yourself admitted that a machine can't establish Force bonds, which is how the attack is done.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You yourself admitted that a machine can't establish Force bonds, which is how the attack is done.

Oooo... Good point.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You yourself admitted that a machine can't establish Force bonds, which is how the attack is done.

😐

I'm not seeing the necessity of creating Force bonds in a technique that drains the Force. So speaking of flowery language....

I shall return soon. I must devour a local Rally's.

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
😐

I'm not seeing the necessity of creating Force bonds in a technique that drains the Force. So speaking of flowery language....

This from the Dark Master of Semantics.

No really, I'm waiting anxiously for your reply. At least, until I can get out of work and go play Deus Ex HR until the hurricane comes.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
This from the Dark Master of Semantics.

That's an excellent title. As for my response/s, you'll need to wait a sec. Food beckons.

Rally's is good. We don't have any iirc around here. I may be gone within the next hour or so, though, so no worries if you don't reply.