Originally posted by Nephthys
Do you think the Jedi Masters were so afraid of The Exiles ability to easily form Force Bonds above all else because they just didn't want her to have friends?
Well the Jedi historically disapprove of attachments. 😬
That little nugget of fact wrapped snugly within the confines of light sarcasm aside, clearly there is a danger to her instinctive use of Force bonds, particularly in the realm of manipulation and the danger she exposes others to. Clearly the Jedi feel that such power is corrupting.
Nevertheless, I haven't seen any evidence indicating Nihilus or Kreia formed bonds with their victims, which (according to you) they have to in order to use the technique.
Originally posted by Nephthys“You are a threat to living creatures, and all who feel the Force.”
I'm not sure what this is intended to do. I acknowledged the obvious dangers of her ability to create Force bonds ex nihilo and all I see is that being confirmed here.
Nephthys
Oh yeah, its cuz of manipulating.
I'm not referring to the political or psychological, but the Force-based domination of others.
What I don't see is an answer to my specific question:
Me
Nevertheless, I haven't seen any evidence indicating Nihilus or Kreia formed bonds with their victims, which (according to you) they have to in order to use the technique.
Oh for ****s sake.
Vrook: “When you returned to us, we saw what had happened. You carry all those deaths at Malachor within you, and it has left a hole, a hunger that cannot be filled.”
Exile: “My connection to the Force is even stronger than before.”
Vrook: “Yes... you can feel the Force, but you cannot feel yourself.”
Vrook: >>>>>'“It is the teaching of these new Sith, to feed on others, on other Force Sensitives.<<<<<< They are symptomatic of the wound in the Force. You are a breach that must be closed. You transmit your pain, your suffering through the Force.”
Vrook: “So you think. It is not the strength of a Jedi you feel.”
Moustache Jedi: “He's right. It's... all the death you've caused to get here. You feed on it, and you grow stronger. You're like Malachor... it's in you, it's what you are now.”
The Exile is no longer a Force user in the traditional Jedi sense; she never really regained his ability to feel the Force on her own. Instead of channeling the Force herself, she forms Force bonds with others unconsciously, and uses them to fuel her own powers. She’s become a sort of Force black hole.
Now:
“What if other Jedi went to war as you did, suffered the same events, and emerged as you did. What if there was a crucible that trained such Jedi to consume and kill?”
“For you, Malachor was that crucible.”
“What's worse, is these Sith that we face... I fear that they have learned the lesson of Malachor all too well. It is what allows them to prey on Force users, to become stronger when Force Sensitives are near.”
“Somehow, they have learned their hunger from you. And so you have brought about the end of the Jedi, and perhaps all the knowledge of the Force.”
Good enough? Do you get it?
Nephthys
Oh for ****s sake.
Me, Battle Bar p. 995 & elsewhere
Neph, are you wanting to continue this discussion civilly or not?
Spoiler:
Might as well make this my frakkin' signature.
Nephthys
Good enough? Do you get it?
So Kreia and Nihilus and all of the other Sith are wounds in the Force too? And I still don't see evidence of Nihilus and Kreia forming Force bonds with their victims.
Originally posted by Turr_PhennirSpoiler:
Might as well make this my frakkin' signature.So Kreia and Nihilus and all of the other Sith are wounds in the Force too? And I still don't see evidence of Nihilus and Kreia forming Force bonds with their victims.
I told you I didn't want to repost the explanation. That took a long time to get all the images. And please, that wasn't even an insult, just an expression of frustration.
I'm on it now.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Ah **** it. Kreia talks too much in that game anyway. No way am I looking through all her goddamn dialogue. Maybe later.
Oh, there's no rush.
Originally posted by Nephthys
The Council flat out tells you its the same technique. Boom. End of story.
If by story you mean your argument, then I suppose this is the end. You have asserted that the Force drain used by the Exile, Nihilus, and Kreia require active use of Force bonds to their victims. The dialogue and evidence you provided do not even remotely suggest that it is a necessary component of the drain, merely a danger by way of dominating the minds and wills of others. 😬
Originally posted by Nephthys
Edit: Maybe if you'd be less frustrating.....
I'm not frustrating. I simply don't roll over and accept your view of the world and of video games and fiction and everything else simply because you want me to. If that frustrates you, you should invest time in increasing your patience or cease arguing with me altogether.
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
If by story you mean your argument, then I suppose this is the end. You have asserted that the Force drain used by the Exile, Nihilus, and Kreia require active use of Force bonds to their victims. The dialogue and evidence you provided do not even remotely suggest that it is a necessary component of the drain, merely a danger by way of dominating the minds and wills of others. 😬I'm not frustrating. I simply don't roll over and accept your view of the world and of video games and fiction and everything else simply because you want me to. If that frustrates you, you should invest time in increasing your patience or cease arguing with me altogether.
Whatever. I'm not explaining it to you anymore. Just look at these to 4 paragraphs and figure it out on your own.
Vrook: “When you returned to us, we saw what had happened. You carry all those deaths at Malachor within you, and it has left a hole, a hunger that cannot be filled.”
Still Vrook: “What if other Jedi went to war as you did, suffered the same events, and emerged as you did. What if there was a crucible that trained such Jedi to consume and kill?”
“For you, Malachor was that crucible.”
“What's worse, is these Sith that we face... I fear that they have learned the lesson of Malachor all too well. It is what allows them to prey on Force users, to become stronger when Force Sensitives are near.”
“Somehow, they have learned their hunger from you. And so you have brought about the end of the Jedi, and perhaps all the knowledge of the Force.”
You are. I did tell you several times I didn't want to repost the explanation. And yet you kept needling me over it. I'm not even that annoyed. I just said '****' for ****s sake. In case you hadn't noticed, I swear alot.
Originally posted by Zampanó
Listening... through the Force? Her ears are broken? 😆
What? She's clearly too far away to hear a word they're saying. 😬
Originally posted by Zampanó
I'm confused. Your interpretation of her intentions is... more canon than an alternative interpretation? When did that happen?
Again, what? Thats not an interpretation, thats why she brought you to see them:
Its one of her core motivations that each of her students have 'failed' and so she wants to create to prove to the council that they're wrong and she's right.
Originally posted by Zampanó
Again, look at the Bane PoD quote. That little speech from Kas'im the Magnificent is enough for Bane to muster enough strength to level the temple. Taking a bit of a breather while the Exile&Co. are stunned is completely plausible. Your objection is noted, but not decisive. The possibility stands.
Ah, I completely missed those quotes.
Two of them are just basic TK. 😬 I said said techniques that require a charge up. Just because Bane charged up for a super-awesome Force Wave doesn't mean he can't use TK. And the Starkiller one wasn't him charging up at all. The other is a ritual, so different rules apply. Kreia didn't go into a meditative trance do do it, nor did Nihilus.
Plus:
Reposting from Janus: 'The point is, assuming a prep time when there is no such evidence is silly. You could suddenly assume prep time for a defense, prep time for TK, prep time for precog, etc. It opens up into endless and ultimately fruitless discussion and debate without factual evidence or even basic common sense backing it up.'
Originally posted by Zampanó
Kreia's ears are broken... why?
She's too far away ****ass.
Originally posted by Zampanó
Resting Potential. Essentially, without the stress and distraction of combat, any attack is going to have the entire power and attention of the practitioner. For example, Kenobi was able to call his lightsaber to him in TPM during a lull in the fight, but the same maneuver in AotC is beyond him because Jango Fett kept him occupied.
'Occupied'? He roped up his wrists and pulled him across the platform. 😬 Kenobi did pull his lightsaber to him, its just that he wasn't in a position to catch it. And Kreia isn't in anymore stress than she was in the temple. Hell, instead of 3 guys brandishing lightsabers at her its just one.
Originally posted by Zampanó
So... the visual evidence is vague and hard to understand but we should totally trust you, right? I don't think it works like that. Kreia's drain is different from N.'s drain is different from the technique that cut her off from the Force is different from the planet-destroying drain. Simplest explanation that incorporates all the evidence.
I assume this post is a joke. Because it is very silly.
Originally posted by Zampanó
Yeah no. Doesn't work like that. You get to either pick up the newest canon version (which shows N.'s gigadrain to look very much like the Dark Reaper) or you go with the original versions, where the technique used on Kreia is invisible while the personal drain is orange.
As I've said, the latest one is the canonical one. Avellone can retcon the appearance if he so wishes.
Originally posted by Zampanó
1. You'll notice that N. already has a life-draining gift.
2. Kreia's commentary on the issue during the game is clear enough... the drain that the Exile and N. use is instinctive.So it is not the same move as N. uses.
I have no idea how 1 and 2 are equalling 3 in this quote. Because its instinctive its not the same wtf?
Originally posted by Zampanó
Well, when missiles and debris are flying at me, it gets a little bit harder to think.
Think? Here I thought Force use was instinctive. 😉
Originally posted by Zampanó
When the telekinetic grip of a Dark Lord of the Sith is at my throat, it is sometimes a little hard to access a universal energy field that I hate. Maybe that's just me.
Yes it is. Theres no reason why a Force Choke would stop her form using the attack. Kreia has already shown the ability to keep fighting after losing a freaking hand. But yeah, a choke will just take her right out.
Originally posted by Zampanó
The point is that combat includes both offensive and defensive measures, often in tandem. Even Luke can't use every technique at once; he has to take himself out of the fight during Invincible to cast an illusion over Jaina. Had he been forced to defend himself during the battle, the illusion would have been shattered.
Originally posted by Zampanó
You've yet to prove milliseconds, you've yet to prove that his innate defense is negligible,
Innate defence? Its said to be unblockable. Do you think Kreia wouldn't know if you could innately block it?
Originally posted by Zampanó
you've yet to prove that Kreia's gesture (which takes longer than many other offensive actions we've seen in the mythos) would outpace Vader's reactions,
Kreia doesn't even need to gesture. She demonstrates the ability to kill without any against the assassins on Malachor.
Originally posted by Zampanó
and you've yet to prove that Vader wouldn't simply implode the witch's think pan.
When has that ever happened.
Originally posted by Zampanó
You've spent a lot of words about how Kreia only has to gesture, and then Vader dies. Let's talk about how Kreia dies. Vader doesn't have to gesture to initiate his trademark Force Choke. Vader doesn't even have to have eye contact- the attack has been used from lightyears away. Vader has mammoth strength at his disposal (have you played TFU?) and could simply apply that force (lowercase 'f'😉 to Kreia's temple and be done with it.See, it's easy to say that your character will simply one shot the opposition, isn't it?
He's never done that.
Originally posted by Nephthys in the Battle Bar
Dude, I've given you the evidence. Its not my fault you're refusing to have your 'concern' addressed by it.
The only thing I'm refusing is, as Zamp alluded to earlier in this thread, to accept your interpretation of canon which is constructed through sheer fiat.
Originally posted by Nephthys in the Battle Bar
The Sith technique is the same as the Exile's technique. And the Exile's technique is forcing Force Bonds and stealing energy through them. You yourself said you didn't think a machine could do that. Ergo its not the same technique.
Nowhere is it said in the evidence you provided that the ability to form Force bonds is a direct component of the drain. 😬
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
The only thing I'm refusing is, as Zamp alluded to earlier in this thread, to accept your interpretation of canon which is constructed through sheer fiat.
Well maybe that would be understandable if you actually had an argument beyond 'nah, I'm not seeing that.'
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
Nowhere is it said in the evidence you provided that the ability to form Force bonds is a direct component of the drain. 😬
Yes it is.
'You are a cipher, forming bonds, leeching the life of others, siphoning their will and dominating them.'
Vrook is describing the entire technique. All of this is a part of the same technique. To assume that one part of the technique is somehow not applicable is illogical. What makes you think that the forming bonds part is completely unnecessary? How about you post some quotes to back your argument up this time. You know, actual evidence.
“You are a threat to living creatures, and all who feel the Force.”
Why the hell would the Council be afraid of the bonding above all else if it had absolutely nothing to do with the technique? Again, try to actually give evidence this time.