Kreia runs the gauntlet! · Star Wars Versus Forum

Nephthys The Gr8est!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
KotOR Campaign Guide, page 109
The Dark Reaper
Created by ancient Sith Lords during the Great Hyperspace War, the Dark Reaper is a Force-draining weapon rediscovered by the Krath and used in the Great Sith War. At its heart is a device known as the Force Harvester, which drains the life essence from all living things around it. When activated, the Dark Reaper drains the life forces in the surrounding area, channeling that energy to boost the power of its turbolasers. More than just a weapon of mass destruction, the Dark Reaper can defend itself using the very Force energy it steals from nearby living beings.[/b]
Originally posted by Count Dooku
You shall be honored. You will be the first Jedi in a thousand years to feel the effects of the Harvester. Your lifeforce will be absorbed, as well as everything else in this forest, and in the end, I will destroy the Republic you fought so hard to defend.
The descriptions provided by the Campaign Guide and Count Dooku are identical to the nature of the drain utilized by Nihilus and Kreia in every significant way. [/b]

'Every Singnificant Way?' I'm afraid not. Does, for instance, the Dark Reaper utterly sever the Force from living things to the extent that it leaves behind a literal absense in the Force? Or does it only use the lesser Force Drain that pretty much any Sith can use?

Also, as per Kreia's words on the last page, the technique 'severs' life from the Force. It does not directly drain it as your quotes proclaim the Dark Reaper does.

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
It not only drains the Force, but the very life essence of its victims, and based on the gameplay concerning the Battle of Alaris Prime, the Reaper also devastates the surrounding landscape in its quest to absorb life. The fact that the Reaper emits a different color than those of Nihilus and Kreia is immaterial; Luke Skywalker notes during his confrontation with the Hidden One in the Fate of the Jedi series that his opponent's Force lightning is different in appearance to that of Emperor Palpatine's, yet the technique is not considered different.

Do the words 'Electric Judgment' ring any bells? Its just like Force Ligtning other than a change in color! Except it doesn't work a thing like FLightning. 😬

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
The Reaper was designed by the ancient Sith, whom we all know are the progenitors of the technique used by Nihilus and Kreia. Avellone indicates that the only reason preventing the ancient Sith from utilizing the technique was their fear that they would ultimately surrender their identities to it, as Nihilus eventually does; imbuing artifacts like Ragnos's scepter and the Force Harvester with such power solves that problem: By making use of the artifacts, they are free to unleash the power of that unholy technique without losing their personalities in the process. The nature and effect of both drains is demonstrably the same; both drain the Force, drain life essences, can destroy the surrounding environment, and both drains use that siphoned energy to empower the user.

Speculation, albeit intelligent and logical, will not win you this debate I'm afraid. I've already dealt with issues to do with the 'similarities' that you see.

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
Here, Ulic says that he can make Anakin immune to the Dark Reaper's effect -- which I have demonstrated to be the same effect as the Force drain used by Nihilus and Kreia. Perhaps if their drain effected something other than the Force or life essences, I could understand your protests, but ultimately that is what it robs from the victim.

Firstly, you say that it protects them from the effects of the Dark Reaper but not how it actually does this. How does he do this? How fast does he do this? Is it feasible for Vader to be able to do it before he gets hit by the technique? If not, can he do it while being severed from the Force? Or after he's been severed from the Force? Hell, your own quotes make it seem like you use it to prevent youself from being drained of the Force, not from being severed. If all it can do is stop you from being drained, then it can do jack diddly about you being severed.

Then why was the technique that Ulic used to defend himself from it not used or mentioned by Kreia? She was around at the time Ulic discovered it and as a Jedi Historian she would obviously know about it. Plus out of universe The Clone Wars game came out before Kotor 2 so its not as if the defence didn't exist at that time Kreai said that there was no defence.

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
I stand by my assessment: the evidence overwhelmingly indicates that these powers are one in the same and, even if there is a presence of a Force bond in the maneuvers utilized by Kreia and Nihilus (of which there is no evidence for their many victims), the effect is ultimately the same and that is what Anakin/Vader can resist.

nah u suck

Turr_Phennir Restricted

N.
Then why was the technique that Ulic used to defend himself from it not used or mentioned by Kreia?

Because she didn't know of it?

N.
She was around at the time Ulic discovered it and as a Jedi Historian she would obviously know about it.

N.
Speculation, albeit intelligent and logical, will not win you this debate I'm afraid.

You haven't the means by which to assert what Kreia definitively would or would not know. That she was a mildly intelligent and well informed historian does not, by any means, make her omniscient.

N.
Plus out of universe The Clone Wars game came out before Kotor 2 so its not as if the defence didn't exist at that time Kreai said that there was no defence.

Again, this asserts that Kreia would certainly have known, which is silly. Is it possible that she would have been in a position to know? Absolutely. Likely, even? Perhaps. But definitively? Not at all.

N.
Do the words 'Electric Judgment' ring any bells? Its just like Force Ligtning other than a change in color! Except it doesn't work a thing like FLightning. 😬

😐

I guess you'd better tell Plo Koon and the Jedi Masters of The Essential Guide to the Force that, because Koon's personal account of his first use of the so-called 'electric judgment' technique is detailed in that book under the description of "Force lightning." (See page 85 for the two page entry.) 😬

N.
Firstly, you say that it protects them from the effects of the Dark Reaper but not how it actually does this. How does he do this? How fast does he do this? Is it feasible for Vader to be able to do it before he gets hit by the technique? If not, can he do it while being severed from the Force? Or after he's been severed from the Force? Hell, your own quotes make it seem like you use it to prevent youself from being drained of the Force, not from being severed. If all it can do is stop you from being drained, then it can do jack diddly about you being severed.

N.
'Every Singnificant Way?' I'm afraid not. Does, for instance, the Dark Reaper utterly sever the Force from living things to the extent that it leaves behind a literal absense in the Force? Or does it only use the lesser Force Drain that pretty much any Sith can use?
Also, as per Kreia's words on the last page, the technique 'severs' life from the Force. It does not directly drain it as your quotes proclaim the Dark Reaper does.

In the interest of brevity, I've compiled as many of the relevant, authoritative quotes as I can, many of them from out-of-universe material:

Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide, page 160
Draining another being’s life is frightening, nauseating, but for a euphoric moment, the memories, the illness, and the hunger disappeared.

Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide, page 160
Darth Traya indeed teaches the newly christened Darth Nihilus to harness his life-draining powers to radical heights—so effectively, in fact, that Nihilus saps Traya’s powers in a calculated double cross. However, as Nihilus greedily consumes entirely planets’ life energy, the dark side macerates him even faster.

The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia, Volume II, page 380
Darth Nihilus was known as the Lord of Hunger and was noted for his ability to literally consume the Force energy of his victims, which was used to sustain his own life energies.

Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide, page 109
Created by ancient Sith Lords during the Great Hyperspace War, the Dark Reaper is a Force-draining weapon rediscovered by the Krath and used in the Great Sith War. At its heart is a device known as the Force Harvester, which drains the life essence from all living things around it. When activated, the Dark Reaper drains the life forces in the surrounding area, channeling that energy to boost the power of its turbolasers. More than just a weapon of mass destruction, the Dark Reaper can defend itself using the very Force energy it steals from nearby living beings.

Dooku to Anakin
You shall be honored. You will be the first Jedi in a thousand years to feel the effects of the Harvester. Your life-force will be absorbed, as well as everything else in this forest, and in the end, I will destroy the Republic you fought so hard to defend.

The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia, Volume I, page 168
The heart of the Dark Reaper was the Force Harvester, a large mechanical sphere that stripped the Force from all living things and stored their life energies until needed by the Dark Reaper.

The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia, Volume I, page 286
The harvester was designed to drain the energy of the Force from any living being, regardless of whether they were Force sensitive or not.

I'm not going to bother pointing out the obscenely obvious symmetry of these many statements. With the exception of Kreia's flowery, inconsistent explanations (one of her statements, for example, says that the technique drains connections in the Force and another statement says, as you point out, that it feeds on the death caused by a life being severed from the Force), they all fit perfectly.

If you feel inclined to disregard all of this evidence, most of which is from out-of-universe sources, and the summation of my deduction here:

Me
The Reaper was designed by the ancient Sith, whom we all know are the progenitors of the technique used by Nihilus and Kreia. Avellone indicates that the only reason preventing the ancient Sith from utilizing the technique was their fear that they would ultimately surrender their identities to it, as Nihilus eventually does; imbuing artifacts like Ragnos's scepter and the Force Harvester with such power solves that problem: By making use of the artifacts, they are free to unleash the power of that unholy technique without losing their personalities in the process. The nature and effect of both drains is demonstrably the same; both drain the Force, drain life essences, can destroy the surrounding environment, and both drains use that siphoned energy to empower the user.

...In favor of a single woman whose knowledge of the Force was neither complete nor perfect, a woman who is subject to the many weaknesses that plague most mortals (chief among them, for the purposes of this discussion, inconsistency), feel free. I'm actually not at this point out to convince you of anything; I know perfectly well where you'll stand when the dust clears regardless of the nature of this discussion and I'm okay with that.

All I've sought to do is satisfy the demands of my argument by compiling sufficient evidence and I've done so. Do with it what you will, but I'm siding with all the sources that indicate that these techniques are the same.

Stealth Moose Umbrella Elite

Kreia wins.

/thread.

Nephthys The Gr8est!!!!!!!!

You missed out my other two posts.