Kreia on Nihilus and the Sith's technique:
'It is a technique that is almost as old as the Sith themselves…it is a means of severing connections between life, the Force, and feeding upon the death it causes.'
'Instead of sending one's will through connections in the Force, instead such connections are drawn upon, fed upon and drained completely.'
It's really annoying that the guy who uploaded The Clone Wars walkthrough wasn't courteous enough to leave the cutscenes untouched.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Kreia on Nihilus and the Sith's technique:'Instead of sending one's will through connections in the Force, instead such connections are drawn upon, fed upon and drained completely.'
Do you have a cutscene or link or something? It would be nice to get the full conversation in context.
Edit: Never mind, I found it on Wookieepedia.
I'm actually playing the game right now. I couldn't be ****ed to look through the LP anymore. So no link I'm afraid.
'It is a technique that is almost as old as the Sith themselves…it is a means of severing connections between life, the Force, and feeding upon the death it causes.'
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
It's really annoying that the guy who uploaded The Clone Wars walkthrough wasn't courteous enough to leave the cutscenes untouched.
Tell me about it. *******.
My copy of the game (and by that I mean The Clone Wars) is lost to the howling abyss that is my room. Even if I were to somehow stumble across it, my Xbox 360 S no longer has its hard drive due to a clerical error at Best Buy, and so I lack the means by which to even play the game. So I'll be placing my faith that the individuals who provided the quotes for the Wookieepedia section (not the article text, but the quotes) transcribed them verbatim.
Kreia
As much as one may use the Force to bolster the wills and strengths of others, the reverse is possible, though not often used. Instead of sending one's will through connections in the Force, instead such connections are drawn upon, fed upon, and drained completely.
This passage doesn't make reference to conjuring personal bonds specifically but could also speak of powers such as Battle Meditation, in which users can manipulate the minds and wills of others without manufacturing such direct, personal connections.
Anyways, this is the situation as I see it:
KotOR Campaign Guide, page 109
The Dark ReaperCreated by ancient Sith Lords during the Great Hyperspace War, the Dark Reaper is a Force-draining weapon rediscovered by the Krath and used in the Great Sith War. At its heart is a device known as the Force Harvester, which drains the life essence from all living things around it. When activated, the Dark Reaper drains the life forces in the surrounding area, channeling that energy to boost the power of its turbolasers. More than just a weapon of mass destruction, the Dark Reaper can defend itself using the very Force energy it steals from nearby living beings.
Dooku to Anakin
You shall be honored. You will be the first Jedi in a thousand years to feel the effects of the Harvester. Your lifeforce will be absorbed, as well as everything else in this forest, and in the end, I will destroy the Republic you fought so hard to defend.
The descriptions provided by the Campaign Guide and Count Dooku are identical to the nature of the drain utilized by Nihilus and Kreia in every significant way. It not only drains the Force, but the very life essence of its victims, and based on the gameplay concerning the Battle of Alaris Prime, the Reaper also devastates the surrounding landscape in its quest to absorb life. The fact that the Reaper emits a different color than those of Nihilus and Kreia is immaterial; Luke Skywalker notes during his confrontation with the Hidden One in the Fate of the Jedi series that his opponent's Force lightning is different in appearance to that of Emperor Palpatine's, yet the technique is not considered different.
The Reaper was designed by the ancient Sith, whom we all know are the progenitors of the technique used by Nihilus and Kreia. Avellone indicates that the only reason preventing the ancient Sith from utilizing the technique was their fear that they would ultimately surrender their identities to it, as Nihilus eventually does; imbuing artifacts like Ragnos's scepter and the Force Harvester with such power solves that problem: By making use of the artifacts, they are free to unleash the power of that unholy technique without losing their personalities in the process. The nature and effect of both drains is demonstrably the same; both drain the Force, drain life essences, can destroy the surrounding environment, and both drains use that siphoned energy to empower the user.
Ulic to Anakin
I can make you immune to the Dark Reaper's effect, for a short time.
Here, Ulic says that he can make Anakin immune to the Dark Reaper's effect -- which I have demonstrated to be the same effect as the Force drain used by Nihilus and Kreia. Perhaps if their drain effected something other than the Force or life essences, I could understand your protests, but ultimately that is what it robs from the victim.
I stand by my assessment: the evidence overwhelmingly indicates that these powers are one in the same and, even if there is a presence of a Force bond in the maneuvers utilized by Kreia and Nihilus (of which there is no evidence for their many victims), the effect is ultimately the same and that is what Anakin/Vader can resist.
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
You realize that you didn't actually address a single point by way of evidence?
No, I don't realise that, because I'm pretty darn sure I did. Its a bit hard to give you a ****ton of examples given that the technique is only explained in a few conversations
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
All you've done is anatomize my argument, all of which concerns itself with the lack of evidence you provided, and essentially try to avoid providing any.
As I said, theres only a few conversations on it in the game. I hope I've provided enough now that you're satisfied.
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
When I ask you for evidence as to the unlikely bond between Nihilus and his victims on Katarr or his intended victims on Telos or the bond between Kreia and the Jedi Masters or Sion's assassins on Malachor, you actually don't give me anything and only refer me to the Council's implication [at best] that the two are somehow connected.
Kreia on Nihilus and the Sith's technique:
'Instead of sending one's will through connections in the Force, instead such connections are drawn upon, fed upon and drained completely.'
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
I'd like to see evidence of the Force bonds between Nihilus and Kreia and their many victims.
Kreia on Nihilus and the Sith's technique:
'Instead of sending one's will through connections in the Force, instead such connections are drawn upon, fed upon and drained completely.'
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
Because if what you say is true, there should be ample evidence of it.
Kreia on Nihilus and the Sith's technique:
'Instead of sending one's will through connections in the Force, instead such connections are drawn upon, fed upon and drained completely.'
Ok I'll stop that now.
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
Your argument also assumes that the ancient Sith as a collective group were capable of forming Force bonds with individuals with great ease, for which again, there is no evidence.
No it doesn't. Its suggested that the technique itself gives the user the power to form these connections. I highly doubt that all the Sith assassins or Kreia were as notably adept as the Exile or Nihilus were at forming bonds. But that might be why those two's variation on the technique are so advanced. Your quote points out that Kreia had to help Nihilus cultivate the technique into maturity in Nihilus, whereas the Exile just does it instinctively and is noted to have gotten stronger at it as well.
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
This has been addressed. During their confrontation with the Exile, the Council concludes that the Exile's ability to create bonds is the ultimate reason for why she needs to be permanently removed from the Force. The reason they explain such a danger makes no reference to Force drains or whatnot:"What if other Jedi went to war as you did, suffered the same events, and emerged as you did. What if there was a crucible that trained Jedi to consume and kill?"
What? 'No reference to Force drains or whatnot?' Erm:
"What if other Jedi went to war as you did, suffered the same events, and emerged as you did. What if there was a crucible that trained Jedi to consume and kill?"
Do you think thats referring to cannabalism?
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
Your argument assumes that the Exile bonded with her "hundreds" of victims. Is there actually any proof of that?
Emphasis on 'Forming bonds' and 'leeching life' as ever.
“It is the teaching of these new Sith, to feed on others, on other Force Sensitives."
The teaching, as we know, is:
'Instead of sending one's will through connections in the Force, instead such connections are drawn upon, fed upon and drained completely.'
And:
"It is what allows them to prey on Force users, to become stronger when Force Sensitives are near.”
That last quote proves that the Sith Assassins form bonds with Force Sensitives that are near. It is not merely a case of killing them and draining them or in leeching off of your companions, merely being near other Force Sensitives allows them to leech power and grow stronger from them. Now translate that to the Exile. Merely being near her opponents forms a connection by which she can draw from them. Then she kills them and sucks up everything they had through the bond. Thus is the technique performed.
In the case of Nihilus, remember that his presence in the Force was stated to he stupidly large. For him, 'merely being near' can translate into 'orbit' in the same way that whilst Kreia can only use the technique across the span of a room, he can do it from, again, orbit.
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
Then where is the evidence of this small influence? Give me any evidence that indicates the existence of a Force bond.
Look and ye shall find.
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
Because the Jedi Masters repeatedly mention that the Exile's ultimate danger is her ability to form connections between herself and others, including powerful Force sensitives.
Why is that a threat though unless it has something to do with the drain? Why?
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
I do not dispute that the Exile creates bonds nor do I dispute that she feeds from them, in a manner of speaking. But even her closest companions and allies are not leeched, only influenced, so I have hard time believing that relative strangers and enemies are being drained like a Red Bull by a fat kid.
😬
Originally posted by Nephthys
Kreia on Nihilus and the Sith's technique:'It is a technique that is almost as old as the Sith themselves…it is a means of severing connections between life, the Force, and feeding upon the death it causes.'
'Instead of sending one's will through connections in the Force, instead such connections are drawn upon, fed upon and drained completely.'
Addmitedly I don't know the full context of the quote, but must these "connections" be force bonds? I would assume not as the Force "binds the galaxy together" meaning everything is connected. Furtermore, people manage to send their will through the Force without the need of force bonds so it these connections are likely something different.
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
This passage doesn't make reference to conjuring personal bonds specifically but could also speak of powers such as Battle Meditation, in which users can manipulate the minds and wills of others without manufacturing such direct, personal connections.
I suppose it could be seen as referring to Battle Meditation, though Battle meditation is said to be an extremely rare ability that no way could an entire Sith cult have access to. Instead, here are the Masters talking about Force Bonds:
Originally posted by The Jedi Council
“Perhaps not. But it is not that to which I am referring. Surely you are familiar with Force bonds. It is the bond that develops between apprentice and Master, when one truly understands another. It is developed over time, through understanding of each other. Yet you do it so easily, and we do not know why.”“You make connections through the Force, and it resonates with those who travel with you. The resonance is even greater when they, too, are Force Sensitive.”
“Your actions affect others more than you know. You draw others to you, especially those strong in the Force.”
“When you suffer, their spirit echoes it. And when they are in pain, their pain becomes yours.”
“Is this going somewhere?”
“This bond - it travels both ways. When you feel pain, or strong emotion, it resonates within you.”
This way instead: 'As much as one may use the Force to bolster the wills and strengths of others, the reverse is possible, though not often used. Instead of sending one's will through connections in the Force, instead such connections are drawn upon, fed upon, and drained completely.'
Furthermore, Force Bonds can 'bolster the wills and strengths of others', so your objection to it on those grounds is silly.
The Council flat out say that the ability is done by 'forming bonds, leeching the life of others, siphoning their will and dominating them.' The Exiles ability is done by forming bonds. Kreia says that the ability is acheived through exploiting 'connections in the Force.' The Council call Force Bonds 'connections in the Force.' Furthermore, battle meditation is one way only, theres nothing suggesting that you can drain someone through the use of Battle Meditation or that you can do anything with it but bolster your allies will. Force Bonding is specifically mentioned that '“This bond - it travels both ways." It fits soooooo much better.
Finally, Force Bonding the one of the centerpieces of the game. Battle Meditation has nothing to do with the narrative at all. It's right out of the blue for it to suddenly be the important aspect of the other big centerpiece of the game rather than connecting the two biggest aspects of the Force explored in the game as they can be so easily.
I'll reply to the rest tommorrow. Its getting late and I need to mull things over. Though I'll point out that it is Ulic enabling Anakin to resist the effects, not himself.
Originally posted by Nephthys
No more Dark Empire.OH what a glorious day that would be. 😍
That doesn't perturb me in the slightest, unless it would be part of a campaign to trump up certain characters and eras. Not that I would ever suggest you or Janus would be capable of such a petty, bitter action......................................
haermm
Originally posted by Nephthys
Also apparantly Ulic taught the Jedi the technique of resisting the Dark Reaper. But Kreia notes that theres [b]no defense. Did they forget about it in a measly 40 years? ****, Kreia was alive and a member of teh Order at that point! So what the hell? [/B]
I would think that this strongly establishes that the two attacks do functionally differ, if what you're saying is indeed true.