Kreia runs the gauntlet!

KV
1. Asajj Ventress

2. Kit Fisto, Ki-Adi Mundi, & Shaak Ti

3. Grievous & 3 Magna-Guards

4. Count Dooku

5. Star Forge Malak

6. Darth Vader (suited)

7. ROTS Anakin & Obi-Wan

If the goal is that each new level is one of increased difficulty, this list is out of order. In the CW3D series, Fisto dominated the general in single combat and Ki-Adi Mundi outperformed Obi-Wan and Anakin during their siege of Geonosis (which, while it doesn't definitively place Mundi higher in the pecking order, does indicate that he's on par with the two). So the presence of Shaak Ti, who is a heavyweight duelist who gave Starkiller trouble, would convince me that this trio outclasses ROTS Anakin and Obi-Wan, unless this is Anakin under his nom de guerre of Zonakin.

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
If the goal is that each new level is one of increased difficulty, this list is out of order. In the CW3D series, Fisto dominated the general in single combat and Ki-Adi Mundi outperformed Obi-Wan and Anakin during their siege of Geonosis (which, while it doesn't definitively place Mundi higher in the pecking order, does indicate that he's on par with the two). So the presence of Shaak Ti, who is a heavyweight duelist who gave Starkiller trouble, would convince me that this trio outclasses ROTS Anakin and Obi-Wan, unless this is Anakin under his nom de guerre of Zonakin.

1. Hmm, Grievous fought off Ki-Adi Mundi, Shaak Ti, Tarr Seirr, and K'kruhk at the Battle of Hypori.

Fisto didn't dominate Grievous; I saw him being slightly lucky and Grievous caught a bit off guard. In any case, it's very possible that the cyborg would have won that contest if his Magna-Guards weren't present.

It's relatively close....which is why one is right above the other. I see what you are saying, though.

2. Yes, Anakin can digi-evolve to Zonakin, if necessary.

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
Ki-Adi Mundi outperformed Obi-Wan and Anakin during their siege of Geonosis (which, while it doesn't definitively place Mundi higher in the pecking order, does indicate that he's on par with the two).

I disagree with this completley. Ki-Adi Mundi could have simply had more enemies to kill not to mention those tight caves would be a great benefit for a lightsaber weilder. Furthermore, Ashoka also out does Anakin... But I doubt she is comparable to him in combat.

KV
1. Hmm, Grievous fought off Ki-Adi Mundi, Shaak Ti, Tarr Seirr, and K'kruhk at the Battle of Hypori.

Much as I wish it weren't so, this incarnation of General Grievous conflicts greatly with the one that we see in the T-canon 3D series. The directing and writing staff have made it abundantly clear through his subsequent performances and commentary that the general is not nearly as deadly as pre-2008 EU made him out to be.

KV
Fisto didn't dominate Grievous; I saw him being slightly lucky and Grievous caught a bit off guard. In any case, it's very possible that the cyborg would have won that contest if his Magna-Guards weren't present.

The duel depicted within the episode doesn't match your interpretation of it. Fisto disarms Grievous, knocks him on his ass, and relentlessly drives him back until his MagnaGuards arrive. Fisto and Fisto alone had the upper hand during that duel, and while it is possible that the general might have won, it is unlikely.

Originally posted by ares834
I disagree with this completley. Ki-Adi Mundi could have simply had more enemies to kill not to mention those tight caves would be a great benefit for a lightsaber weilder. Furthermore, Ashoka also out does Anakin... But I doubt she is comparable to him in combat.

That's true, good point.

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
Much as I wish it weren't so, this incarnation of General Grievous conflicts greatly with the one that we see in the T-canon 3D series. The directing and writing staff have made it abundantly clear through his subsequent performances and commentary that the general is not nearly as deadly as pre-2008 EU made him out to be.

Still, the older series is also T-canon, and Grievous does canonically fight off Mundi, Ti, K'kruhk, and Teirr simultaneously.

TP
The duel depicted within the episode doesn't match your interpretation of it. Fisto disarms Grievous, knocks him on his ass, and relentlessly drives him back until his MagnaGuards arrive. Fisto and Fisto alone had the upper hand during that duel, and while it is possible that the general might have won, it is unlikely.

I'm not taking anything from Fisto, but it's possible Grievous, with the way he manages to recover, to have regained the advantage.

KV
Still, the older series is also T-canon,

According to Leland Chee, arbiter of continuity, this is not the case.

Leland Chee
regarding the 3d clone wars cartoon and the live action star wars tv series, are they g-canon or c-canon?
So far I'm using the term T-canon for the upcoming animated series and live-action series. Nothing prior is being considered T-canon.

KV
I'm not taking anything from Fisto, but it's possible Grievous, with the way he manages to recover, to have regained the advantage.

Possible, but again, unlikely. The battle wasn't especially close; Fisto was more skilled and more dominant despite Grievous's apparent physical advantages and greater number of lightsabers.

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
According to Leland Chee, arbiter of continuity, this is not the case.

Possible, but again, unlikely. The battle wasn't especially close; Fisto was more skilled and more dominant despite Grievous's apparent physical advantages and greater number of lightsabers.

Yet, it isn't non-canon. Unless you can find other evidence, Grievous did fight and more or less beat those 4 Jedi at Hypori.

Fisto did push back Grievous, but I can't imagine him finishing off the cyborg after he had on the ground.

KV
Yet, it isn't non-canon.

This is what is referred to as a backhanded concession and this isn't the first you've made in this discussion. Let's be genuine here; when the opposition makes a valid point, as ares did earlier, be courteous enough to acknowledge it as I did earlier.

KV
Unless you can find other evidence, Grievous did fight and more or less beat those 4 Jedi at Hypori.

Me
Much as I wish it weren't so, this incarnation of General Grievous conflicts greatly with the one that we see in the T-canon 3D series. The directing and writing staff have made it abundantly clear through his subsequent performances and commentary that the general is not nearly as deadly as pre-2008 EU made him out to be.

This isn't merely an issue of feats of one medium conflicting with those of another; those are easy to work out. But from the Episode III commentary on out, Lucas made it abundantly clear that General Grievous was never intended to be an all-powerful killing machine, and more akin to a moderately talented coward. But more importantly, this has left the murky depths of Lucas's fickle mind and has been made manifest in the new series by way of Filoni and the writers.

KV
Fisto did push back Grievous, but I can't imagine him finishing off the cyborg after he had on the ground.

I'm not sure what this has to do with what I said earlier of the fight. That Fisto didn't finish Grievous off does not contradict the fact that he was dominating the general and that he had the upper hand throughout the engagement until the MagnaGuards arrived.

On the subject of the order, I believe this is slightly more accurate:

[list=1]
[*]Ventress
[*]Grievous & 3 MagnaGuards
[*]Kit Fisto, Ki-Adi Mundi & Shaak Ti
[*]Dooku/Malak
[*]Dooku/Malak
[*]Vader
[*]Anakin & Obi-Wan
[/list=1]

I'm very torn on the placement of Malak and Dooku. mmm

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
This is what is referred to as a backhanded concession and this isn't the first you've made in this discussion. Let's be genuine here; when the opposition makes a valid point, as ares did earlier, be courteous enough to acknowledge it as I did earlier.

Hold up...

1. Lecturing a poster who consistently acts polite and friendly to be "courteous" is rude and hypocritical.

2. I responded how your evidence doesn't negate the event's occurrence. Why you are perturbed to the extent that you have criticize my character is baffling to me, especially if the concession was implied (that the cartoon series wasn't T-canon).

This isn't merely an issue of feats of one medium conflicting with those of another; those are easy to work out. But from the Episode III commentary on out, Lucas made it abundantly clear that General Grievous was never intended to be an all-powerful killing machine, and more akin to a moderately talented coward. But more importantly, this has left the murky depths of Lucas's fickle mind and has been made manifest in the new series by way of Filoni and the writers.

All right. Does that mean we completely ignore everything Grievous does in cartoon series?

Unless you provide another quotation demonstrating the series as non-canon, the events occurred.

That means whatever Grievous did in the series happened.

I'm not sure what this has to do with what I said earlier of the fight. That Fisto didn't finish Grievous off does not contradict the fact that he was dominating the general and that he had the upper hand throughout the engagement until the MagnaGuards arrived. [/B]

It doesn't. It also doesn't mean Grievous would have been destroyed had that fight continued.

KV
1. Lecturing a poster who consistently acts polite and friendly to be "courteous" is rude and hypocritical.

That you didn't insult me doesn't mean that you were courteous. You made two assertions in this discussion that were subsequently proven to be false: the first was the assertion that Fisto didn't dominate the general (when he did) and the second was that the micro-series was T-canon (when it wasn't). You conceded to neither of these things upon receiving the evidence to the contrary and I find that behavior, from someone who describes himself as "consistently [...] polite and friendly" to be... discourteous.

KV
2. I responded how your evidence doesn't negate the event's occurrence. Why you are perturbed to the extent that you have criticize my character is baffling to me, especially if the concession was implied (that the cartoon series wasn't T-canon).

Because it bothers me when people make bald, blunt assertions that are subsequently proven false and don't bother to rescind them. Again, I refer you to my earlier interaction with ares. I made a blunt assertion, ares proved me wrong, and a concession was given.

If this is something you prefer not to do or see as beneath you, just let me know.

KV
All right. Does that mean we completely ignore everything Grievous does in cartoon series?

Unless you provide another quotation demonstrating the series as non-canon, the events occurred.

That means whatever Grievous did in the series happened.

This means we disregard what contradicts the current holistic interpretation of the general's abilities. He routinely struggles with Jedi Masters in single combat and never demonstrates the skill or power sufficient to defeat multiple ones in combat. Did he defeat the aforementioned Jedi on Hypori? Perhaps, but certainly not as depicted in the micro-series. Anything to the contrary flies in the face of what George Lucas and the writing staff have established to be the general's true abilities.

Believe me, if I could change canon at whim, this would be one of the first things that would go. I much prefer the earlier incarnation of Grievous.

KV
It doesn't. It also doesn't mean Grievous would have been destroyed had that fight continued.

Was that asserted by me? If so, I retract it.

I think I should point out my enjoyment over the delicious irony of Gideon lecturing someone on not responding to points while not responding to my points.

The irony, she buuurns!

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
That you didn't insult me doesn't mean that you were courteous. You made two assertions in this discussion that were subsequently proven to be false: the first was the assertion that Fisto didn't dominate the general (when he did) and the second was that the micro-series was T-canon (when it wasn't). You conceded to neither of these things upon receiving the evidence to the contrary and I find that behavior, from someone who describes himself as "consistently [...] polite and friendly" to be... discourteous.

I didn't fully concede; I countered that your proof doesn't negate the event's occurrence.

I expect someone of your reputation to not become so offended when I didn't concede immediately that you had to resort to insulting my character.

If our roles were exchanged, I would not have said that you lacked courteousness. Rather, I would have noticed there was still contention, and hence a concession would have been unnecessary.

Because it bothers me when people make bald, blunt assertions that are subsequently proven false and don't bother to rescind them. Again, I refer you to my earlier interaction with ares. I made a blunt assertion, ares proved me wrong, and a concession was given.

If this is something you prefer not to do or see as beneath you, just let me know.

Please, I don't have such arrogance that I won't give concessions. If it pleases you, I concede that the cartoon series isn't T-canon due to your evidence of the Leland Chee quote.

This means we disregard what contradicts the current holistic interpretation of the general's abilities. He routinely struggles with Jedi Masters in single combat and never demonstrates the skill or power sufficient to defeat multiple ones in combat. Did he defeat the aforementioned Jedi on Hypori? Perhaps, but certainly not as depicted in the micro-series. Anything to the contrary flies in the face of what George Lucas and the writing staff have established to be the general's true abilities.

Believe me, if I could change canon at whim, this would be one of the first things that would go. I much prefer the earlier incarnation of Grievous.

How he was presented is irrelevant. What matters is that he ended up more or less defeating those four Jedi and surviving that subsequent ARC trooper onslaught.

N.
I think I should point out my enjoyment over the delicious irony of Gideon lecturing someone on not responding to points while not responding to my points.

The irony would be appropriate if the circumstances were similar; they're not. In our case, I've simply become uninterested in a discussion in which the opposition relies solely on hypocrisy and dishonesty to further his argument after multiple requests for him to stop. 😬

In the case with Korto, it's not that he's refusing to respond, but that he failed to give the appropriate response, which in this case was a concession.

KV
I didn't fully concede; I countered that your proof doesn't negate the event's occurrence.

I didn't ask you to fully concede as to whether or not it happened.

KV
I expect someone of your reputation to not become so offended when I didn't concede immediately that you had to resort to insulting my character.

I didn't insult your character; no attacks or pejoratives were hurled. I simply found your conduct discourteous and voiced my opinion of it.

KV
If our roles were exchanged, I would not have said that you lacked courteousness. Rather, I would have noticed there was still contention, and hence a concession would have been unnecessary.

?
That makes no sense. "The micro-series is T-canon" is a separate contention from "Grievous did beat those four Jedi." The former was what needed a concession, because it was demonstrably false.

KV
Please, I don't have such arrogance that I won't give concessions. If it pleases you, I concede that the cartoon series isn't T-canon due to your evidence of the Leland Chee quote.

Well it's good to see that something separates you from other folks I've argued with in this thread. sneer

I appreciate the gesture and I'm sorry if you believed I attacked your character. I assure you it wasn't intentional. (You'd know if it was.)

KV
How he was presented is irrelevant. What matters is that he ended up more or less defeating those four Jedi and surviving that subsequent ARC trooper onslaught.

I'm afraid that this isn't so. By the very nature of the attack, how Grievous was presented is absolutely relevant because it defies the retconned depiction of the general's skills.

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
I didn't ask you to fully concede as to whether or not it happened.

I only said that because it was my rationale as to why I didn't respond "I concede" and didn't talk any further.

I didn't insult your character; no attacks or pejoratives were hurled. I simply found your conduct discourteous and voiced my opinion of it.

Gotcha! I suppose we see debate courtesy in different light. I didn't mean for you to think I ignored your evidence- rather, I didn't see it as enough to discredit the main point of mine that Grievous did defeat those four Jedi at Hypori. I thought I implied concession to the T-canon in the "yet."

?
That makes no sense. "The micro-series is T-canon" is a separate contention from "Grievous did beat those four Jedi." The former was what needed a concession, because it was demonstrably false.

^

Well it's good to see that something separates you from other folks I've argued with in this thread. sneer

I appreciate the gesture and I'm sorry if you believed I attacked your character. I assure you it wasn't intentional. (You'd know if it was.)

Good to hear we aren't at each others' throats. 🙂

I'm afraid that this isn't so. By the very nature of the attack, how Grievous was presented is absolutely relevant because it defies the retconned depiction of the general's skills.

We know:

1. Grievous fought Mundi, Ti, Teirr, K'Kruhk, and Aayla Secura (I forgot to mention her).

2. Grievous fought well enough to kill Teirr and "kill" the immortal K'Krukh (collects his lightsaber afterwards), while supposedly fighting the other Jedi.

3. He fought well enough to incapacitate the others, save for Mundi.

4. He survived the ARC trooper gunship assault.

Therefore, even if his actual depiction may not have been as exaggerated, he still did the above.

.

I can agree with that.

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
On the subject of the order, I believe this is slightly more accurate:

[list=1]
[*]Ventress
[*]Grievous & 3 MagnaGuards
[*]Kit Fisto, Ki-Adi Mundi & Shaak Ti
[*]Dooku/Malak
[*]Dooku/Malak
[*]Vader
[*]Anakin & Obi-Wan
[/list=1]

I'm very torn on the placement of Malak and Dooku. mmm

Well this list just switches Grievous and guards with the three Jedi.

Like I said, I'm torn between Malak and Dooku.