Captain America vs. Marv

That's precisely the point. Neither you nor I have any idea if he wanted all of Cap's feats to count. He saw FA and thought it would be a good fight... That CAP with THOSE SPECIFIC FEATS vs. Marv. PERIOD. Characters can change and grow in power ALL THE TIME. Are you new to movies or something. He thought that Cap from THAT movie would be a good match. Maybe he would think that using Cap's later feats wouldn't be such a good fight... That isn't possible. We can't speak for him. So in the interest of keeping what he originally intended this is all we can do. He specified which Cap, end of story.

Neither do you. And you say we can't speak for him, but that's exactly what you're doing, lol.

FA Cap is still better than Marv though, lol.

Originally posted by Silent Master
The thread was started in 2011, when the only Cap movie was FA. he wasn't restricting the thread to only FA feats, he was just naming the movie the character appeared in.

Huh, didn't expect this thread to be this old. But yeah, I think unless OP states otherwise it's safe to assume we're talking Captain America as he currently is.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I don't need to prove a negative, especially when it has nothing to do with the thread. You know how things work around here TVD, so please stop acting like you don't. I don't care if you believe Cap is the same and can do the same things or not, in fact, I don't care what I believe on the subject. This thread is taking ONLY his feats from the FA into play. It's that simple. It makes no difference whether you believe he could do this or that from other movies, this is FA Cap vs. Marv... period.

Normally no. But the Super Soldier serum took Cap from a 5'4" scrawny wimp, into a 6"+ being, who was boosted to the VERY PEAK of human capability. Meaning, from a physical standpoint, he is at the pinnacle. He can't get any better. So there is NO logic that backs up the idea that he magically just became more durable etc. as the movies passed, as opposed to simply getting more feats showing/pushing his abilities.

The no negative argument only works if the initial person had no evidence to back up their argument to begin with. If I post evidence to back my position that I think his durability is the same, then if you want to say otherwise, you have to prove it. And I DO say his durability is the same, based on what I stated in the previous paragraph and previous posts. So again, do you believe that Cap's face somehow magically just became significantly tougher in between TFA & TWS for no explainable reason?

Also, how does it NOT have anything to do with the thread? Are you joking? The second match is a pure durability contest where someone is wailing on them. Knowing their durability levels is the ONLY thing relevant to that specific match.

By your stubborn insistence on this, you are basically saying that you believe Cap's powers actually got amped during the films, as opposed to him simply improving in skill and finding his limits more. So which is it then? If you DO believe it, then the burden IS on you to prove it, considering we are told nothing of the sort on screen.

Otherwise, why complain so stubbornly about it?

As to the OP date, if you really want to go there, we can get a mod ruling on it. Also, seems hypocritcal of you to accuse others of interpreting/claiming to know what the OP meant, and then doing it yourself.

Marv wins. Very sleight edge.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Normally no. But the Super Soldier serum took Cap from a 5'4" scrawny wimp, into a 6"+ being, who was boosted to the VERY PEAK of human capability. Meaning, from a physical standpoint, he is at the pinnacle. He can't get any better. So there is NO logic that backs up the idea that he magically just became more durable etc. as the movies passed, as opposed to simply getting more feats showing/pushing his abilities.

The no negative argument only works if the initial person had no evidence to back up their argument to begin with. If I post evidence to back my position that I think his durability is the same, then if you want to say otherwise, you have to prove it. And I DO say his durability is the same, based on what I stated in the previous paragraph and previous posts. So again, do you believe that Cap's face somehow magically just became significantly tougher in between TFA & TWS for no explainable reason?

Also, how does it NOT have anything to do with the thread? Are you joking? The second match is a pure durability contest where someone is wailing on them. Knowing their durability levels is the ONLY thing relevant to that specific match.

By your stubborn insistence on this, you are basically saying that you believe Cap's powers actually got amped during the films, as opposed to him simply improving in skill and finding his limits more. So which is it then? If you DO believe it, then the burden IS on you to prove it, considering we are told nothing of the sort on screen.

Otherwise, why complain so stubbornly about it?

As to the OP date, if you really want to go there, we can get a mod ruling on it. Also, seems hypocritcal of you to accuse others of interpreting/claiming to know what the OP meant, and then doing it yourself.

I can't believe I have to explain things to somebody that has been around so long and knows better. I get the feeling you're just being obtuse and don't actually believe what you're saying.

Your premise is that he is the same person and thus he would never get any better. This couldn't be further from the truth. In fact, it's flat out wrong. Think about my boxing analogy or any combat sports analogy. Is Manny Pac of the Morales fight the same Manny Pac of the Hatton fight? Simple question. Of course he's not. He's the same person born with the same ability to get x amount of strong and x amount of fast. He's still Manny Pac, a human after all. However, anybody who knows about boxing knows that he improved over the subsequent years between those fights. People improve, people get better, people get more experience and abilities. It's one thing to be Neo and always have certain abilities than can be gained, but it's another to actually gain them. To even think Cap wouldn't get any better skill wise or learn new abilities to use or simply become more used to his "powers" and thus this opens the door to new abilities is simply ludicrous. He most certainly would. Which is the point... this is illustrated best using boxing analogies on vs. forums there.... If

I want a Manny Pac with a certain skill level... say against Morales... I think that's a good matchup for a Money May of the Castillo fight. Both kind of green, both would improve and get better. Which is exactly WHY I would specify which version I'm using or any OP is using. I have no issue if it just says Cap vs. Ozy... Cool all feats matter. But if the OP thinks Cap from FA and only THOSE feats would match up well with Ozy... then that is how it has to be. Are you really not seeing how this works? This is routine on this forum... are you honestly saying you've never seen people specify which version of a character we are using... and excluding there other feats. Are you honestly saying you've never seen this before?

The OP never said only feats from FA are allowed.

While I agree that Cap can indeed get better with time, not due to any increase in physical stats but simple skill improvement and experience gained, I don't see how any of this would be relevant unless OP SPECIFICALLY states that ONLY feats from The First Avenger are allowed.

Edit: Sorry, misread your post.

Originally posted by FrothByte
While I agree that Cap can indeed get better with time, not due to any increase in physical stats but simple skill improvement and experience gained, I don't see how any of this would be relevant unless OP SPECIFICALLY states that ONLY feats from The First Avenger are allowed.

He did specify.. In fact, it was without any ambiguity. He said FA Cap... he didn't just say Cap. It's really THAT simple. You guys are extrapolating that ohhh it was the only movie made then.. ohh he likely meant for all his feats to be included. Sorry, please show where he said that or where he's now saying that. If not, I'll just go ahead with what he originally intended... thanks.

BTW Frost, you're absolutely correct people can get better and more used to their abilities. Which is the point. Same character, but there can be improvements and experience gained where an old version without that is a better match up for fighter B.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I can't believe I have to explain things to somebody that has been around so long and knows better. I get the feeling you're just being obtuse and don't actually believe what you're saying.

Your premise is that he is the same person and thus he would never get any better. This couldn't be further from the truth. In fact, it's flat out wrong. Think about my boxing analogy or any combat sports analogy. Is Manny Pac of the Morales fight the same Manny Pac of the Hatton fight? Simple question. Of course he's not. He's the same person born with the same ability to get x amount of strong and x amount of fast. He's still Manny Pac, a human after all. However, anybody who knows about boxing knows that he improved over the subsequent years between those fights. People improve, people get better, people get more experience and abilities. It's one thing to be Neo and always have certain abilities than can be gained, but it's another to actually gain them. To even think Cap wouldn't get any better skill wise or learn new abilities to use or simply become more used to his "powers" and thus this opens the door to new abilities is simply ludicrous. He most certainly would. Which is the point... this is illustrated best using boxing analogies on vs. forums there.... If

I want a Manny Pac with a certain skill level... say against Morales... I think that's a good matchup for a Money May of the Castillo fight. Both kind of green, both would improve and get better. Which is exactly WHY I would specify which version I'm using or any OP is using. I have no issue if it just says Cap vs. Ozy... Cool all feats matter. But if the OP thinks Cap from FA and only THOSE feats would match up well with Ozy... then that is how it has to be. Are you really not seeing how this works? This is routine on this forum... are you honestly saying you've never seen people specify which version of a character we are using... and excluding there other feats. Are you honestly saying you've never seen this before?

So again you are back to ignoring parts of my post and misreading others? I specifically said in multiple posts that he DID increase in skill and learn about his abilities more. And you did not address the fact that he was amped to full potential in the very first film, so from a pure physical statistics standpoint, he has been the same throughout. The boxing analogy is dumb, because I NEVER ONCE SAID that Captain America has not increased in skill or gotten a better handle on his powers. In fact, that has been my whole argument. His progression in feats is the result of improving his skills and getting used to his abilities, without them gaining further enhancements like more SS serum. The Neo argument is also dumb, because the extra powers he gained as the one required extra training and experience to unlock/harness. The SS serum didn't teach Cap how to use his arms, legs etc. (he already has normal motor function), and it didn't create some hidden reservoir of superpower, like he is Gohan from Dragon Ball or something. It boosted him from scrawny wimp to the pinnacle of humanity in one go. But I have mentioned this before, which you seemingly ignored. My argument has been that Steve's physical statistics have not increased (because he has been peak from the get go), simply explored, coupled with an increase in skill level. Seriously, do you skim read before replying?

Except he never specifically excluded other feats. I see nowhere where it says "Feats from TFA only". What I see is a thread made when there was only one film for that specific incarnation of Cap out, but multiple movie versions of Cap around by that point already (including animated versions), so the OP mentioned the film to specify from which film universe he is. And that is how pretty much everyone else here sees it. You are the only one to stubbornly argue about it.

Anyway, I think you are literally arguing purely for the sake of argument, and I am not getting sucked into 5 pages of circular nonsense. Captain America still wins all three rounds, so this is a waste of time.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
So again you are back to ignoring parts of my post and misreading others? I specifically said in multiple posts that he DID increase in skill and learn about his abilities more. And you did not address the fact that he was amped to full potential in the very first film, so from a pure physical statistics standpoint, he has been the same throughout. The boxing analogy is dumb, because I NEVER ONCE SAID that Captain America has not increased in skill or gotten a better handle on his powers. In fact, that has been my whole argument. His progression in feats is the result of improving his skills and getting used to his abilities, without them gaining further enhancements like more SS serum. The Neo argument is also dumb, because the extra powers he gained as the one required extra training and experience to unlock/harness. The SS serum didn't teach Cap how to use his arms, legs etc. (he already has normal motor function), and it didn't create some hidden reservoir of superpower, like he is Gohan from Dragon Ball or something. It boosted him from scrawny wimp to the pinnacle of humanity in one go. But I have mentioned this before, which you seemingly ignored. My argument has been that Steve's physical statistics have not increased (because he has been peak from the get go), simply explored, coupled with an increase in skill level. Seriously, do you skim read before replying?

Except he never specifically excluded other feats. I see nowhere where it says "Feats from TFA only". What I see is a thread made when there was only one film for that specific incarnation of Cap out, but multiple movie versions of Cap around by that point already (including animated versions), so the OP mentioned the film to specify from which film universe he is. And that is how pretty much everyone else here sees it. You are the only one to stubbornly argue about it.

Anyway, I think you are literally arguing purely for the sake of argument, and I am not getting sucked into 5 pages of circular nonsense. Captain America still wins all three rounds, so this is a waste of time.

If you understood the point about people becoming better, than we wouldn't be having this discussion. You were claiming that since he's the same CAP all his feats apply, even if a specific movie is mentioned. That is how we got into this discussion. If you have ANYTHING from the OP that NOW states he intended for all Cap feats to be included and he still thinks it's a good fight. Fine. But until then you're just extrapolating what he intended and intended now. I need no such extrapolation. He said which movie, that is the movie I'm going from. Stop acting like I'm going against the OP's intent. That couldn't be further from the truth, in fact, I'm going with EXACTLY the version he wanted to use.

if you were in agreement with me about skill and abilities increasing than how can you not see that one particular version of Cap might be better against opponent B.. because he hadn't increased to those level yet? How is this simple and easy to discern fact alluding you? So you concede that indeed, some version of Cap are better suited to certain opponents? Correct? Thus, why is it so hard to believe that maybe, just maybe this version of Cap is better for this fight?

The Op never stated that only FA feats are allowed, thus Cap's feats from current movies are fair game.

Nope he specified WHICH Cap he wanted used. It clearly and with no ambiguity said FA Cap. If you have a note from the OP saying he's now okay with all of Cap's feats, then go ahead and post his quote. If not, he said which Cap we're using and not all of his feats apply. Period.

He at no time states that only feats from FA are allowed.

he doesn't need to state it.. he said FA Cap.. that WAS which Cap he wanted used. He didn't just say Cap vs. Marv.. He SPECIFIED WHICH Cap he was using. As I stated, post a note from the OP saying all Cap's feats are okay to use. Stop being a moron. It's the same thing in the vs. forum. If somebody says Celestial Quest thanos... THAT is the Thanos we are using. Not subsequent Thanos' from Comics since then. That is the point of specifying which version you want used. When it just says Thanos vs. Thor... then all feats apply. If you say Thanos Imperative Thanos vs. V&V Despero.. THOSE are the versions used. Not all showings are admissible. You know this and are blatantly ignoring it.

Guys this has been going in circles for the last few pages and it is getting nowhere. Get a mod ruling or realize this is a silly debate.

The OP has final say on what persons they want to use and if they want to limit feats/abilities for those people to create interesting new scenarios. If there is something unclear than the OP should be the one to clarify and say what they meant.

Obviously in this case the OP hasn't posted in over a year so I doubt they are going to come in and settle this.

So in that case why don't you people be mature about the situation and realize you could both be right. Perhaps their original attention was only FA feats or perhaps they wouldn't care if you used feats from other movies as well. You'll never know.

So how about instead of arguing in circles over which scenario is the one true one you could instead argue both scenarios or only one scenario and if you don't want to argue one way then don't. Be flexible this supposed to be fun.

I'm glad that you finally admit that the Op didn't say that only FA feats are allowed, which means that all canon feats for MCU Cap are admissible.

Cap demolishes

Cap.., Marv is, incompetent. Cap is a well trained, and battle hardened soldier. Oh, and he also possess one of the most indestructible materials in the galaxy. Marv would be a a saturday morning villain, for Cap.