Originally posted by Uriel005
hey they aren't actually marines though. But still Spec ops in a battlefield that isn't an open field I'll back in 10 to 1 odds.
Your crazy give me the number and the fire power. Your talking a platoon and a half vs. a squad at most. If you think that out of that 50 soldiers there aren't going to be any stellar ones on par with with the ones that survived Castle's, or Wolvie's trainning you are cookoo.
Both Wolverine and Batman have extended history has combat trainers. Batman has trained a good portion of the League (and the Outsiders?), and obviously has a few Robin's under his belt. Wolverine has trained all the core X-men, he has half a dozen female prodigies, and it was stated back in New X-Men v2 at the Xavier Institute that each squad (Hellions, New Mutants, Alphas ect) spent two hours a day Mon - Fri learning martial arts with Logan. Cap has trained a few of the Avengers but on paper Batman and Wolverine have a much better resume as instructors. Cap can give a better "Any give Sunday" speech to rally his troops before the fight, but I'd be willing to bet that Bruce and Logan are going to end up with a noticeably more skilled group of people than Cap does. Wolverine is used to training groups, and lets be honest the X-Men have the best team work / power synergy in comics short of the FF, so training a group to work in unison won't be a problem for him but Batman is used to training one one for solo ops... so training a larger group and molding a cohesive unit might be more difficult for him.
Punisher is going to end up with a team of monsters. Unfortunately even in the best case scenario half of his guys wont survive the training... but the rest will be single minded inhuman beasts. This team will also have the best training with conventional military weaponry by a noticeable margin, which is a big question mark for the Cap team. How well can a person who adamantly doesn't believe in fire arms trains a group of people to use them?
Wolverine, Batman and Punisher's troops win. Thor, Wonder Woman and Orion's troops lose.
Cap is an expert in this. There is a reason why everyone generally defers to him when it's time for a leader to take over.
Not just because he gives the best speeches but because he brings out the best in people and is one of if not THE soundest military mind.
I think his unit would beat everyone else's maybe with some difficultly where Batman/Wolverine/WW is concerned, especially since he is the one giving his units commands.
It's like asking who can create the best group of detectives and putting Batman in it.
Originally posted by Cogito
Wolverine
Wolverine would be a comparable teacher to Cap. They both have a ton of experience, so this is probably the closest matchup. Cap has a slight edge in tactics/strategy, Wolverine has the edge in ruthlessness.
Scenario 1: Cap's team wins a close one. Wolverine's team just isn't equipped for non-lethal measures.
Scenario 2: Toss up or slight edge to Wolverine, for opposite reasons listed above.Thor
IMO, Cap has the edge against Thor in just about every relevant category. Plus, his team respects him more and works harder for him.
Scenario 1: Cap
Scenario 2: CapPunisher
Can't match Cap. Simple as that.
Scenario 1: Cap
Scenario 2: CapBatman
Batman is no doubt an extraordinary teacher when it comes to a single pupil (see Robins). If you dumped 50 people in front of him he'd consider them a nuisance and ignore them. After two years he'd solo Caps team.
Scenario 1: Batman via cheating
Scenario 2: Batman via cheatingWonder Woman
Arguably the most skilled person here (I'd argue it anyways). Raised by a culture that does this, and only this, for a living. She has enormous experience and resources to draw on. She may not be the strategist/tactician that Cap is, but she'll have the best fighters. By far.
Scenario 1: Team WW
Scenario 2: Team WWOrion
...gets confused and overestimates human durability. Gets pissed of a lot by their incompetence. His team dies in their training.
Scenario 1: Cap via forfeit
Scenario 2: Cap via forfeit
Um in certain ways Pun is better at certain tactics than Cap, he doesn't make a good leader because hes a loner.
Originally posted by Newjak
Cap is an expert in this. There is a reason why everyone generally defers to him when it's time for a leader to take over.Not just because he gives the best speeches but because he brings out the best in people and is one of if not THE soundest military mind.
I think his unit would beat everyone else's maybe with some difficultly where Batman/Wolverine/WW is concerned, especially since he is the one giving his units commands.
It's like asking who can create the best group of detectives and putting Batman in it.
Except Cap isn't leading anyone, he is training them, once they are out in the field they are on their own. Steve is in a tent somewhere getting details brought to him and delegating orders, but mostly his guys are on their own with whatever he gave them. If he was on the front lines it might be a different matter entirely... but he isn't. The question isn't who can lead a better force, the question is who can train a better force to lead themselves.
EDIT: If they had different objectives, like holding a fortified position or something, Cap's tactics from the side line would likely make his unit the favorite, but the objective in this scenario is find the other team and take them down... I'm not sure what can of orders he can relay that would matter.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Except Cap isn't leading anyone, he is training them, once they are out in the field they are on their own. Steve is in a tent somewhere getting details brought to him and delegating orders, but mostly his guys are on their own with whatever he gave them. If he was on the front lines it might be a different matter entirely... but he isn't. The question isn't who can lead a better force, the question is who can train a better force to lead themselves.
Originally posted by JakeTheBankSo yes he is giving orders.
Yes, it's a gauntlet so to speak. He battles each opponent's force, with having his force fully healed and revived for each battle, but they don't retain any experience from previous fights.And yes, Steve and his opponent do not directly engage in the fight, but can rely orders through a command center which is inaccessible and unalterable by opposing forces. Like a pocket dimension with computer screens showing the battlefield and what not or something.
And even if he wasn't Captain America would still be able to train his people to work like him. That's the point. Steve does know tactics and strategies better than everyone. He would be able to give that knowledge to his people. Things other people don't think of that Cap does. His unit would be able to get a detailed idea of how his mind works which would be invaluable on the battlefield.
I feel like pun would maybe braing wash one or a couple of his guys to be suicide bomber status. Dude won't give a **** about a couple of random guys he prob treats like shit anyway. I know thats kinda ****ed up but yeah i totally see him doing it. Have them attack and one guy with some kind of shield run in a blow up the enemy ftw.
But other than that I would say Cap, if these guys are in a featureless enviroment and are only given normal army weapons or today. Because imo he has the most experience training people in h2h. Also when the time comes he is pretty good with a gun and familiar with gun training due to his backround.
IDk how bats would do training a alot of average joes. Don't see him doing as well as cap.
WW she would be great at training them men to be good h2h combatants but everyone has a gun and she doesn't strike me as a person who knows how to use one much less good at it. She prob be like "gun's are for sissies, now everyone pick up a bow or spear" lol
Thor and orion yes they are leaders of their people and what not and has alot of experience but just don't see them training a bunch of normies that well.
Other than punisher I think wolverine is one of the biggest threats. Good teacher has the danger room and not that far being cap in tactics but prob no where near as good in the overall strategy dept.
I say Cap could clear it and will have trouble with pun and logan.
Originally posted by Newjak
So yes he is giving orders.And even if he wasn't Captain America would still be able to train his people to work like him. That's the point. Steve does know tactics and strategies better than everyone. He would be able to give that knowledge to his people. Things other people don't think of that Cap does. His unit would be able to get a detailed idea of how his mind works which would be invaluable on the battlefield.
I'm well aware, I even said as much in the very post you quoted. But he isn't on the front line, getting second hand info from off site would be nothing but counter productive.
Based on what exactly? Look at all the people Batman has trained. How many of them work or think like he does? Maybe Pre-boot Tim on some levels... but that's it. Ditto goes for Wolverine and the people he has trained. Suddenly Captain America - who doesn't have a history of training skilled combatants - is going to create an entire platoon of Captain America lites who all think like he does? Not likely. The best the trainers can do is impart the skills their men need to survive and win the scenario, and make them self sufficient. The scenario here is very spartan. They aren't trying to sack supply trucks, they aren't trying to hold value ground, they aren't up against larger forces trying to win small victories and demoralize their opponents; it's two teams of 50 guys, in the forest, trying to find the other guys first and take them out. Captain America doesn't have the teaching / training chops his opponents have, nor is he as adept at stealth and guerrilla style modern warfare tactics. The reality is off site commands from any of the trainers are going to be next to useless in this scenario... and in fact will more than likely be detrimental over all and undermine the authority of which ever soldier takes point in the field.
Originally posted by srankmissingninTo rebuttal all this I point to Civil War to show what Captain America is capable of in Guerrilla Warfare with vastly smaller resources to pool from.
I'm well aware, I even said as much in the very post you quoted. But he isn't on the front line, getting second hand info from off site would be nothing but counter productive.Based on what exactly? Look at all the people Batman has trained. How many of them work or think like he does? Maybe Pre-boot Tim on some levels... but that's it. Ditto goes for Wolverine and the people he has trained. Suddenly Captain America - who doesn't have a history of training skilled combatants - is going to create an entire platoon of Captain America lites who all think like he does? Not likely. The best the trainers can do is impart the skills their men need to survive and win the scenario, and make them self sufficient. The scenario here is very spartan. They aren't trying to sack supply trucks, they aren't trying to hold value ground, they aren't up against larger forces trying to win small victories and demoralize their opponents; it's two teams of 50 guys, in the forest, trying to find the other guys first and take them out. Captain America doesn't have the teaching / training chops his opponents have, nor is he as adept at stealth and guerrilla style modern warfare tactics. The reality is off site commands from any of the trainers are going to be next to useless in this scenario... and in fact will more than likely be detrimental over all and undermine the authority of which ever soldier takes point in the field.
As for stealth people have already stated that Steve would be one of the top assassins in the world if he wanted to be, because of his tactical mind.
Originally posted by Newjak
To rebuttal all this I point to Civil War to show what Captain America is capable of in Guerrilla Warfare with vastly smaller resources to pool from.As for stealth people have already stated that Steve would be one of the top assassins in the world if he wanted to be, because of his tactical mind.
I feel like I've already clearly acknowledged that and clarified on the differences...
This isn't a Command and Conquer match. The teams are competing for resources. No one is trying to hold gold mines and gather lumber. There aren't supply trucks to sack and territory to conqueror. If you dropped Captain America at one end of a city with 50 soldiers, and Batman at the other end of a city with 50 soldiers and said "Take it over," that would be a scenario where Captain America's tactical mind would be invaluable... this thread is about two teams of 50 guys trying to take each other down. That's it. There isn't much resource or troop delegation to be had in this scenario, practical execution of their skills and training will be what wins the day.
Who has ever said?
Originally posted by srankmissingninPeople at Shield when he was asked to take over. And perhaps they said spy instead of assassin.
I feel like I've already clearly acknowledged that and clarified on the differences...This isn't a Command and Conquer match. The teams are competing for resources. No one is trying to hold gold mines and gather lumber. There aren't supply trucks to sack and territory to conqueror. If you dropped Captain America at one end of a city with 50 soldiers, and Batman at the other end of a city with 50 soldiers and said "Take it over," that would be a scenario where Captain America's tactical mind would be invaluable... this thread is about two teams of 50 guys trying to take each other down. That's it. There isn't much resource or troop delegation to be had in this scenario, practical execution of their skills and training will be what wins the day.
Who has ever said?
So you're saying having the best military mind, best strategist teach you for two years is not gonna give you an edge over someone else, when you've been put in a situation where...
Strategy and the ability to adapt and overcome are gonna be the key ingredients to survive and win?
Originally posted by Newjak
So you're saying having the best military mind, best strategist teach you for two years is not gonna give you an edge over someone else, when you've been put in a situation where...Strategy and the ability to adapt and overcome are gonna be the key ingredients to survive and win?
Over someone? Certainly. Over a group of better trained people? No.
If we equate this to mathematical terms, then we are looking at an incredibly simple equation. Is Stephan Hawking going to solve he equation 2 + 3 = ? better than anya grad student? No. This scenario is incredibly simple, what is Captain America going to tell his troops that the other soldiers aren't going to be told? Stay hidden? Don't light fires? Your enemies will try to stay close to water? Split into smaller groups of 5 -10? Set traps? Wound an enemy soldier but keep him alive and use his screams to draw out your enemy? The tactics and strategies for this type of combat scenario are simple, and several of Cap's opponents are noticeably more skill at them than Steve himself.
Batman and Wolverine are better teachers / trainers than Cap, and they are more well versed in all of the strategies and tactics that are applicable for this sort of combat.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin😆
Over someone? Certainly. Over a group of better trained people? No.If we equate this to mathematical terms, then we are looking at an incredibly simple equation. Is Stephan Hawking going to solve he equation 2 + 3 = ? better than anya grad student? No. This scenario is incredibly simple, what is Captain America going to tell his troops that the other soldiers aren't going to be told? Stay hidden? Don't light fires? Your enemies will try to stay close to water? Split into smaller groups of 5 -10? The tactics and strategies for this type of combat scenario are simple, and several of Cap's opponents are noticeably more skill at them than Steve himself.
Batman and Wolverine are better teachers / trainers than Cap, and they are more well versed in all of the strategies and tactics that are applicable for this sort of combat.
Except this isn't math and even if it was that was a horrible example. For one you aren't dealing with a simple equation. You would be dealing multiple ones trying to figure them all out at the same time as quickly as possible. Something I'm sure SH would actually do a lot better than any grad student unless that Grad student happened to be a better Mathematician which could be possible.
Thankfully though Steve is the best strategist, technician, leader, and has the best ability to change the dynamic of a battlefield to suit his needs.
If you honestly think that kind of valuable information shared over two years isn't gonna give his team an edge that is you being asinine. Steve will be able to give insights that other people won't. He'll be able to teach his squad things others can't because he is the best and he is the best because he is better than others because he knows more/ can do work them out faster/ and knows what to look for better.
All things he can teach to his squad.
So yes I wil take a squad of Cap trained soldiers over everyone else on this list because of those reasons.
Add in the fact Cap has live ffeeds into the battle and can coach from the sidelines I think it's a huge advantage.
Originally posted by srankmissingninNo their not, that's you pretending there. Steve routinely teaches and spars with people all the time.Batman and Wolverine are better teachers / trainers than Cap, and they are more well versed in all of the strategies and tactics that are applicable for this sort of combat.